What's the strongest data-driven argument for Michael Jordan as GOAT?

[Goomba3666]

6-6 in the Finals to lebron’s 4-6.
6 FMVP’s to Lebron’s 4.
5 MVP’s to Lebron’s 4.
10 Scoring Titles to Lebron’s 1.
30.1 PPG Career Scoring Avg to Lebron’s 27.2
1 DPOY to Lebron’s 0.
Higher Career PER than Lebron.
Better Career Defensive Rating than Lebron.
Higher Career Box Plus/Minus than Lebron.
Higher Career Win Shares/48 than Lebron.
1 NCAA National Championship to Lebron’s 0.
2 NCAA Player of the Year Awards to Lebron’s 0.

Lebron has longevity, but that’s about it. Jordan had the greater peak and accomplished more in less time.

He also didn’t lose a single Finals series or even let one go to a Game 7, whereas Lebron has not only lost 6, but lost 2 where his team was favored (would’ve been 3 if not for Ray Allen), including 2011 where he completely disappeared in the Finals. No disrespect to Dirk, but the Mavs had no business winning that series. If Lebron even just plays average, Miami wins comfortably. But he completely disappeared that Finals, particularly down the stretch of games. And this was in his prime, mind you.

This. Lebron and his fans ONLY have numbers. Have of them are due to his longevity and the other half don’t even really favor Lebron. Lol.

Lebron and the media trying to fool the fans by racking up longevity stats even in the midst of blowouts or bad seasons. In 2021-2022, dude was subbing himself into blowouts and skipping games to maintain his PPG average for a scoring title while his team was getting monkey stomped.

[LakersLegacy]

6/6

That’s not valid because he played more than 6 seasons. Losing before the Finals is still losing

He beat 5 teams 6 times :
1 HIV Magic (without Kareem and with MJ having the Lakers game plan taken from Lakers practice court trash can in the only NBA Finals on record where that occurred, gameplangate)
2 Drexlers Blazers
3 Barkleys Suns
4 Payton Sonics
5+6 Malone’s Jazz

[LakersLegacy]

The best statistical argument in the 3 point era is this

Winning the most as BOTH a defensive + offensive captain, where dominance = Repeating as champion in the role of BOTH a defensive and offensive captain

MJ has defended the title 4 times winning 6 total championships MOST 3 point era as the captain on BOTH offense + defense + closer

Kobe has defended the title 3 times winning 5 total championships in the 3 point era as the captain on BOTH offense + defense + closer

LeBron has defended the title 1 time with 4 total championships in the 3 point era as the captain on BOTH offense + defense + being the closer

This is based on defending the title as both the captain on offense + defense + taking on the role as the closer

The 3 things all-time great players can control is being a captain on offense + (greats should also be a captain on defense) + greats should be able to be a closer (make free throws)

Some greats aren’t defensive savants see Curry

Some greats don’t close because of unreliable free throw shooting, unreliable decision making when it’s most important

Some greats don’t super team up see Garnett, James, Dutant+Curry

[twyzted]

'07 Spurs and '15 Warriors as well.

Yeah no
Jordan never had sub 40% shooting series.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1997-nba-eastern-conference-finals-heat-vs-bulls.html

Wasn't common...

Congratulations on finding the only playoffs serie of Jordans career where he shot under 40%.

Lebron did it 2 times in the finals…

[twyzted]

So is it better to not make the finals and lose in the earlier rounds? If Lebron only made to four finals and won all four, would that be better?

4-6 looks bad, but its better than being 4-0 and losing before ever making it to the finals.

No 4-6 IS bad, that's a career loser if i see one.

So its better if he lost in the first/second/third round and not make finals because that would make his record look better?

That makes zero sense.

Does 4/20 look better than 6/15?
Winning a title———>not winning a title.
Why is this so hard to understand for Lebron fans?

[LakersLegacy]

I think Lebron, Russell, Kareem have stronger statistical cases

Russell was traded by Atlanta after Red called them and told Atlanta that they were not ready to have black players and scared the GM into thinking that his family could be in danger if he did not trade Russell for 2 white players

Thus delaying the Hawks from having their first black player

Obviously that trade was not about basketball. It was a fear monger rip off that ruin a competitive NBA for the 1960s.

Can you imagine what would happen today if a GM attempted that? That’s another why we really have to separate the 3 point (ABA-NBA MERGER) than the 50s 60s NBA. Impossible to compare when players are traded to avoid offending racists in all-inclusive basketball

The modern era could be called the inclusive-era and the old era could be called the racist era because that’s what it really was. Black players banned from certain hotels, hotel rooms, etc

[payton2kemp]

No 4-6 IS bad, that's a career loser if i see one.

So its better if he lost in the first/second/third round and not make finals because that would make his record look better?

That makes zero sense.

Does 4/20 look better than 6/15?
Winning a title———>not winning a title.
Why is this so hard to understand for Lebron fans?

So its better to lose in the earlier rounds of the playoffs like Jordan did till 1990, than make the finals and lose. Makes sense.

[twyzted]

No 4-6 IS bad, that's a career loser if i see one.

So its better if he lost in the first/second/third round and not make finals because that would make his record look better?

That makes zero sense.

The stupidity around that premise is astounding.

"If only lebron had lost in the first round more, i would have him higher on my list"

No if he was 4/4 then 6/6 would still be better.
The real and only stupidity is that you guys just dont understand that actually winning a title is far more valueble then not winning.

Below is a picture of the wall of champions that is in Liverpools training ground.(there is a identical wall at anfield by the players tunnel)
What you see is every title that this club has won.



What you dont see is coming in 2nd place for 3 of the last 5 pl seasons or 2nd place in 2/5 last cl finals.

So explain to me how is 4/20 better then 6/15?
Outside of the obvious meme of 420.

[TheGeneral99]

The best statistical argument in the 3 point era is this

Winning the most as BOTH a defensive + offensive captain, where dominance = Repeating as champion in the role of BOTH a defensive and offensive captain

MJ has defended the title 4 times winning 6 total championships MOST 3 point era as the captain on BOTH offense + defense + closer

Kobe has defended the title 3 times winning 5 total championships in the 3 point era as the captain on BOTH offense + defense + closer

LeBron has defended the title 1 time with 4 total championships in the 3 point era as the captain on BOTH offense + defense + being the closer

This is based on defending the title as both the captain on offense + defense + taking on the role as the closer

The 3 things all-time great players can control is being a captain on offense + (greats should also be a captain on defense) + greats should be able to be a closer (make free throws)

Some greats aren’t defensive savants see Curry

Some greats don’t close because of unreliable free throw shooting, unreliable decision making when it’s most important

Some greats don’t super team up see Garnett, James, Dutant+Curry

You forgot Kobe had Shaq for the first 3 who was arguably the captain on both ends.

[dhsilv2]

Yeah no
Jordan never had sub 40% shooting series.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1997-nba-eastern-conference-finals-heat-vs-bulls.html

Wasn't common...

Congratulations on finding the only playoffs serie of Jordans career where he shot under 40%.

Lebron did it 2 times in the finals…

Wasn't hard...took all of 5 seconds. Though that comparison is silly. They are different types of players and MJ didn't shot 3's as much.

[heezyo2o]

Lebron has better longevity because he has better stats than Jordan at 38? You can't expect someone to retire for 3 seasons and be on the same level, especially at 38 years old

[Jasen777]

Does 4/20 look better than 6/15?
Winning a title———>not winning a title.
Why is this so hard to understand for Lebron fans?

Well for one thing, because MJ stans don't want to do the same for Russell?

[Jasen777]

Lebron has better longevity because he has better stats than Jordan at 38? You can't expect someone to retire for 3 seasons and be on the same level, especially at 38 years old

LeBron has better longevity because he didn't take those years, and the 1+ in the middle, off. Plus he got to skip college. Though being better at that age helps a bit.

[Marrrcuss]

So its better if he lost in the first/second/third round and not make finals because that would make his record look better?

That makes zero sense.

The stupidity around that premise is astounding.

"If only lebron had lost in the first round more, i would have him higher on my list"

No if he was 4/4 then 6/6 would still be better.
The real and only stupidity is that you guys just dont understand that actually winning a title is far more valueble then not winning.

Below is a picture of the wall of champions that is in Liverpools training ground.(there is a identical wall at anfield by the players tunnel)
What you see is every title that this club has won.



What you dont see is coming in 2nd place for 3 of the last 5 pl seasons or 2nd place in 2/5 last cl finals.

So explain to me how is 4/20 better then 6/15?
Outside of the obvious meme of 420.

Again no one is saying the dumb crap up just said. We are only recognizing the non title years and not making it ring or bust.
But I get it. Your way only considers 40% of MJs whole career.

[Vampirate]

6 Championships in 8 years with him being the undisputed best player in all of them.

Had he not retired the first time he could have had one of the very few four peats and had 7 championships in 8 years.

This on top of the statistics which were gaudy of course.

In order for anyone to have a resume over Jordan, they need to at least four peat and be indisputably be the best player in all 4 championships.

[jehosafats]

You had to have been there. Young people see Lebron and think to themselves "hes the best ever" but most people who watched Jordan know there is a whole different level MJ reached. Much to LBJ fan boys dismay it's also all on film.

Lies. I grew up watching Jordan. Lebron is the better all around player. Jordan is arguably the best 'position' player in NBA history. That doesn't mean he can even sniff the multidimensional role someone like Lebron has to fill in order for his teams to be successful.

Jordan hagiography annoys me, frankly. I've seen both play in their primes and there's really no comparison.

[twyzted]

The stupidity around that premise is astounding.

"If only lebron had lost in the first round more, i would have him higher on my list"

No if he was 4/4 then 6/6 would still be better.
The real and only stupidity is that you guys just dont understand that actually winning a title is far more valueble then not winning.

Below is a picture of the wall of champions that is in Liverpools training ground.(there is a identical wall at anfield by the players tunnel)
What you see is every title that this club has won.



What you dont see is coming in 2nd place for 3 of the last 5 pl seasons or 2nd place in 2/5 last cl finals.

So explain to me how is 4/20 better then 6/15?
Outside of the obvious meme of 420.

Again no one is saying the dumb crap up just said. We are only recognizing the non title years and not making it ring or bust.
But I get it. Your way only considers 40% of MJs whole career.

You and other Lebron fans make this “if only he lost earlier he would be higher on my list”

You never see a Jordan guy say it.

Advanced stats for regular Season:
1st in PER
1st in ws/48
5th in WS
5th in ows
14th in dbpm(2nd among guards)
1st obpm
2nd bpm
2nd Vorp

Playoffs:
1st in PER
2nd in ws
7th in dws
1st ws/48
1st obpm
13th dbpm
1st bpm
2nd VORP

There is no other player who matches this.

Then add this to:
6 titles.
5 mvps.
6 fmvps.
1 dpoy.
10 all nba first team.
9 all defense first teams.

22 nba playoff records.

Most points
759 by Michael Jordan, Chicago Bulls, 1992

Highest points per game average (min. 25 games)
33.45 by Michael Jordan (179 games)

Most 50-point games
8 by Michael Jordan

Most 40-point games
38 by Michael Jordan

Only player to record consecutive 50-point games
Michael Jordan scored 50 and 55 points in Games 1 and 2 of the 1988 Eastern Conference First Round (Chicago Bulls vs. Cleveland Cavaliers).

Most consecutive 45-point games
3 by Michael Jordan (May 9–13, 1990)

Only player to score 15+ points in every game (min. 25 games)
Michael Jordan (179 games)

Most consecutive 20-point games
60 by Michael Jordan (June 2, 1989 – May 11, 1993)

Most consecutive 15-point games
179 by Michael Jordan. This streak spans every playoff game of Jordan's career.

Most consecutive 10-point games
179 by Michael Jordan. This streak spans every playoff game of Jordan's career.

13 nba finals records.

Most points in a half
35 by Michael Jordan, Chicago Bulls (vs. Portland Trail Blazers) on June 3, 1992

Most points per game in an NBA Championship series
41.0 by Michael Jordan, Chicago Bulls (vs. Phoenix Suns), 1993

Most consecutive 40 point games
4 by Michael Jordan (June 11–18, 1993)

Most consecutive 20 point games
35 by Michael Jordan (June 2, 1991 – June 14, 1998). This streak entails every Finals game of Jordan's career.

Only player to score 20+ points in all games (min. 15 games)

Michael Jordan (35 games)

Most Bill Russell NBA Finals Most Valuable Player Awards*
6 by Michael Jordan

Most Bill Russell NBA Finals Most Valuable Player Awards wins in a row*
3 by Michael Jordan (twice) and Shaquille O'Neal.

Only players to win an Olympic gold medal, NCAA title, and NBA title.
One of 8 players to achieve that.

Jordan has 7 of the highest 10 playoff series scoring averages of all time single handedly.

He has 10 of top30 points per75 for regular season.
He has 10 of top16 points per75 for playoffs.

[MMyhre]

Jordan never made it past the first round of the playoffs without Pippen...

And pippen did without Jordan . So Jordan needed pippen more than pippen needed Jordan

It's official then. Pippen is the GOAT.

Lol, I feel like we should send this honorary RGM GD GOAT trophy to Scottie, maybe it cheers him up a bit.

[OdomFan]

6/6

That’s not valid because he played more than 6 seasons. Losing before the Finals is still losing

He beat 5 teams 6 times :
1 HIV Magic (without Kareem and with MJ having the Lakers game plan taken from Lakers practice court trash can in the only NBA Finals on record where that occurred, gameplangate)
2 Drexlers Blazers
3 Barkleys Suns
4 Payton Sonics
5+6 Malone’s Jazz

That's pretty stupid how yall bring up Kareem like that. He was old. He retired from basketball. if he played in 1991 he wouldn't have guarunteed a damn thing for those Lakers. The Lakers picked up a young Vlade Divac and finished with a solid record going into those playoffs and got back to the Finals. Its no excuse. The Bulls earned that championships.

Payton and Kemps Sonics btw. They were a damn good Duo, and had solid pieces around them that could knock down outside shots andplay good defense.

Same with the Stockton* and Malone Jazz. The 93 Suns and 98 Jazz took the Bulls to a final deciding bucket for Chicago to win it all. They deserve respect for being great teams.

and the Blazers were no push overs either.

The Bulls went 6 and 0 in the Finals and thats that. Two f'n 3 peats. That is historical. Only other team that comes close to that is the 60s Celtics.

[ChiCitySPORTS#1]

His peak regular season and playoff production on both ends edges Lebron while Lebron's longevity edges Jordan.

Look at some of MJ's prime years:

1987: 37, 5 and 5 with 3 steals, 1.5 blocks on 48% shooting.
1988: 35, 6 and 6 with 3 steals, 1.6 blocks on 54% shooting.
1989: 33, 8 and 8 with 3 steals, 1 block on 54% shooting.
1990: 34, 7 and 6 with 3 steals, 1 block on 53% shooting.
1991: 32, 6 and 6 with 3 steals, 1 block on 52% shooting.
1992: 30, 5 and 6 with 2 steals, 1 block on 52% shooting.
1993: 33, 7 and 5 with 2 steals, 1 block on 50% shooting.

His peak playoff stats also outshine Lebron.

1988: 36, 7 and 5 with 2 steals, 2 blocks on 53% shooting.
1989: 35, 7 and 8 with 2.5 steals, 1 block on 51% shooting.
1990: 37, 7 and 7 with 3 steals, 1 block on 51% shooting.
1991: 31, 6 and 8 with 2.4 steals, 1.4 blocks on 52% shooting.
1992: 35, 6 and 6 with 2 steals, 1 block on 50% shooting.
1993: 35, 7 and 6 with with 2 steals, 1 block on 48% shooting.

Absolutely insane.

And even more insane is that during his peak in 1993 he decided to retire for nearly 2 years.

These are insane numbers when teams were scoring much much less than today. Scoring <100 was much more common. It’s been said a million times but with the way fouls are also called today…it’s easy to think he’d absolutely dominate todays game. Maybe more than he did in the 80s/90s