What's the strongest data-driven argument for Michael Jordan as GOAT?

[Charlesareed]

LeBron is the better all around player he was labeled a pass first guy but he does and always was a scores to a fault also he has longevity over Mj that is all MJ was the real deal had he had longevity like LeBron it would be a question MJ was the only goat since lebron had played 20 seasons he’s racked up every single individual accolades/achievement except dpoy it that a knock on him at all he’s a great great player all time great runner up to MJ i shame in that he can have 10 rings to MJ 6 he’s still not my goat for Various reasons such as ring chasing complaints about not having enough help when he’s the one who picked his teammates and then turns on them he rather cheat to win weather then beat the best players in the league like dude you can’t have all the best players on your team what fun is that he don’t care he thing’s getting more rings then MJ he’s the goat smh heck he thinks he should be loved by the millions and millions or ppl on planet earth shame on him he’s made the league watered down almost unwatchable at times he flops do dirty tactics at times he’s even got someone called for a fouls or technical foul then winks at the camera and suddenly his team wins the game nah bro you gotta beat the best not cheat

We are doing this again????

These Lebron stans have to give it up. Most did not watch MJ except on YouTube. I guarantee you anyone who has witnessed Lebron, Kobe and MJ play will tell you it isn't even close. MJ is the GOAT...just leave it alone.

I would rather people say Lebron is the best they have seen play, instead of anointing him as the GOAT.

Im not a Lebron fan at all never liked the guy never will im not a hater either I’m a MJ fan as well as a KOBE fan I was born are raised in Chicago 1983 I’ve seen all 3 play MJ mostly because my mom was a huge sports fan I don’t understand why you figure I’m a Lebron supporter stan fan etc because I’m not

[Charlesareed]

Jordan never made it past the first round of the playoffs without Pippen...

This is a very dumb take especially when comparing MJ to Lebron mostly because it’s not like the bulls went straight to the finals and won every year since pippin got there and it’s not like Lebron did anything significant in the playoffs dither then some highlight plays still in all both great players however basketball is a team sport not individual and fyi Lebron haven’t won anything without wade bosh Kyrie love AD so there’s that

Pippen has been beyond the first round of the playoffs several times without Jordan. Lebron dragged a team to the Finals by himself...

Yet what was the result vs playing on a team with MJ 6 rings in 8 years as for Lebron he did take a team to the finals and didn’t even win a game but thanks for showing up

[Yank3525]

You had to have been there. Young people see Lebron and think to themselves "hes the best ever" but most people who watched Jordan know there is a whole different level MJ reached. Much to LBJ fan boys dismay it's also all on film.

Lies. I grew up watching Jordan. Lebron is the better all around player. Jordan is arguably the best 'position' player in NBA history. That doesn't mean he can even sniff the multidimensional role someone like Lebron has to fill in order for his teams to be successful.

Jordan hagiography annoys me, frankly. I've seen both play in their primes and there's really no comparison.

The magic of MJ was his all around game. He was more versatile then LeBron. One reason the Bulls won was because of MJ's ability to adapt. The do everything schtick Bron does, MJ was doing that in 89. And then when Phil came along, he moved off ball, which allowed Scottie, Horce, Paxson etc. to excel. He was the ultimate utility player.

[Charlesareed]

This is a great example of how impossible it is to have real discussions here. OP specifically asks for data-driven arguments for Jordan as GOAT and instead we get a flood of the same old nuance-free copypastas. "LOL JJ Barea...too young too have seen Jordan...6 for 6...didn't need to team up...". Wacky idea: if you think Jordan is the GOAT, but have nothing to contribute re: the thread topic, sit this one out. You'll get a chance to say the same thing we've heard a billion times tomorrow.

Props to the 1 or 2 people who presented actual data.

MJ is my goat for reasons that has nothing to do with his finals record everyone wanted to be like mike including Lebron who still is trying to prove a point that he’s better then mike and he’s so working but umm MJ is the reason the NBA went global worldwide he did that he dominated on the court his whole era and generation he was unstoppable once he finally got past the bad boy pistons and the bird let Celtics even tho he never beat them in a playoff series they feared him he stopped so many nba legends hofers from either getting to the finals or winning the finals he dominated like no other in that regard that’s what makes him the goat had he had longevity like Lebron this wouldn’t be be a topic like ever

[Charlesareed]

Why wouldn't you consider Jordan's years with the Wizards serious? Jordan was the same age Lebron is now. Lebron just took the Lakers to the western conference finals beating Steph Curry. Jordan was just a selfish scorer with the Wizards who couldn't even get them to the playoffs!

James had Davis. Jordan had Rip Hamilton. You want to compare those two?

Jordan got the same results before Pippen and after Pippen, no second round playoff appearance... Lebron got the same results before playing with Hall of Famers and after playing with them, DEEP PLAYOFF RUNS!

Really he had 1 deep playoff run without hofers and he got swept what your point

[Charlesareed]

6 rings is his strongest argument, Bron has him beat pretty much everywhere else.

Longevity my friend

[Medbrat]

6 rings is his strongest argument, Bron has him beat pretty much everywhere else.

Longevity my friend

Not Bron's fault Mike is a quitter.

[Charlesareed]

Jordan got the same results before Pippen and after Pippen, no second round playoff appearance... Lebron got the same results before playing with Hall of Famers and after playing with them, DEEP PLAYOFF RUNS!

You think Lebron winning with Anthony Davis is more impressive than Jordan winning with Pippen?

In 98 Pippen only played in 44 games, has a migraine in game 6, and during the playoffs averaged 17, 7, and 5 on 50 TS%, 19.5 PER.

In 2020 AD played in 62 games during a shortened 71 game season, and during the playoffs averaged 28, 10, and 4 on 66.5 TS%, 29.6 PER.

And I know that stats don’t capture defense, but AD was phenomenal defensively during that playoff run.

And if we’re going by data, I don’t think there’s any data that puts Pippen above Wade or AD.

There is, look at how many times Pippen went to the playoffs without Jordan. AD and Wade did a lot of losing without Lebron and Shaq. Pippen makes people better. You don't have much of a team without Wade or AD as your best player. They will probably sit out injured to get a better lottery pick

He made the playoffs once on the Bulls without Jordan didn’t get to the finals MJ comes back for half a season so that one don’t count the next 3 seasons they 3peat why because MJ
On the rockets he had Dream & Barkley both hofers on the blazers he play with Damian studamire sheed Steve smith binzi wells jermaine oneal


D wade yeah with Shaq he’d have only the 2 heatles rings

[Taj FTW]

His peak regular season and playoff production on both ends edges Lebron while Lebron's longevity edges Jordan.

Look at some of MJ's prime years:

1987: 37, 5 and 5 with 3 steals, 1.5 blocks on 48% shooting.
1988: 35, 6 and 6 with 3 steals, 1.6 blocks on 54% shooting.
1989: 33, 8 and 8 with 3 steals, 1 block on 54% shooting.
1990: 34, 7 and 6 with 3 steals, 1 block on 53% shooting.
1991: 32, 6 and 6 with 3 steals, 1 block on 52% shooting.
1992: 30, 5 and 6 with 2 steals, 1 block on 52% shooting.
1993: 33, 7 and 5 with 2 steals, 1 block on 50% shooting.

His peak playoff stats also outshine Lebron.

1988: 36, 7 and 5 with 2 steals, 2 blocks on 53% shooting.
1989: 35, 7 and 8 with 2.5 steals, 1 block on 51% shooting.
1990: 37, 7 and 7 with 3 steals, 1 block on 51% shooting.
1991: 31, 6 and 8 with 2.4 steals, 1.4 blocks on 52% shooting.
1992: 35, 6 and 6 with 2 steals, 1 block on 50% shooting.
1993: 35, 7 and 6 with with 2 steals, 1 block on 48% shooting.

Absolutely insane.

And even more insane is that during his peak in 1993 he decided to retire for nearly 2 years.

These are insane numbers when teams were scoring much much less than today. Scoring <100 was much more common. It’s been said a million times but with the way fouls are also called today…it’s easy to think he’d absolutely dominate todays game. Maybe more than he did in the 80s/90s

There wasn't a season in the 80s where the average PPG was below 107. Can you quantify how much more common <100 games were?

[KodiakBear]

You think Lebron winning with Anthony Davis is more impressive than Jordan winning with Pippen?

In 98 Pippen only played in 44 games, has a migraine in game 6, and during the playoffs averaged 17, 7, and 5 on 50 TS%, 19.5 PER.

In 2020 AD played in 62 games during a shortened 71 game season, and during the playoffs averaged 28, 10, and 4 on 66.5 TS%, 29.6 PER.

And I know that stats don’t capture defense, but AD was phenomenal defensively during that playoff run.

And if we’re going by data, I don’t think there’s any data that puts Pippen above Wade or AD.

There is, look at how many times Pippen went to the playoffs without Jordan. AD and Wade did a lot of losing without Lebron and Shaq. Pippen makes people better. You don't have much of a team without Wade or AD as your best player. They will probably sit out injured to get a better lottery pick

He made the playoffs once on the Bulls without Jordan didn’t get to the finals MJ comes back for half a season so that one don’t count the next 3 seasons they 3peat why because MJ
On the rockets he had Dream & Barkley both hofers on the blazers he play with Damian studamire sheed Steve smith binzi wells jermaine oneal


D wade yeah with Shaq he’d have only the 2 heatles rings

I've always said Jordan was the GOAT(although Lebron's longevity does impress me), but the whole "that year didn't count is laughable. You don't get to pick and choose what doesn't count. Jordan played in the 95 playoffs and the Bulls got beat by the Magic. His career is obviously impressive enough, you don't have to try and say years don't count. Lebron doesn't get a pass in year 19 for missing the playoffs despite missing close to half the season and AD missing half the season.

[SelfishPlayer]

This is a very dumb take especially when comparing MJ to Lebron mostly because it’s not like the bulls went straight to the finals and won every year since pippin got there and it’s not like Lebron did anything significant in the playoffs dither then some highlight plays still in all both great players however basketball is a team sport not individual and fyi Lebron haven’t won anything without wade bosh Kyrie love AD so there’s that

Pippen has been beyond the first round of the playoffs several times without Jordan. Lebron dragged a team to the Finals by himself...

Yet what was the result vs playing on a team with MJ 6 rings in 8 years as for Lebron he did take a team to the finals and didn’t even win a game but thanks for showing up

The result is that Pippen plays well with others, just don't try to make him a 3&D player like the Rockets attempted to do. If Pippen played with a guy like Reggie Miller it would be interesting to see him compete against the MJ Bulls.

[Rapcity_11]

His peak regular season and playoff production on both ends edges Lebron while Lebron's longevity edges Jordan.

Look at some of MJ's prime years:

1987: 37, 5 and 5 with 3 steals, 1.5 blocks on 48% shooting.
1988: 35, 6 and 6 with 3 steals, 1.6 blocks on 54% shooting.
1989: 33, 8 and 8 with 3 steals, 1 block on 54% shooting.
1990: 34, 7 and 6 with 3 steals, 1 block on 53% shooting.
1991: 32, 6 and 6 with 3 steals, 1 block on 52% shooting.
1992: 30, 5 and 6 with 2 steals, 1 block on 52% shooting.
1993: 33, 7 and 5 with 2 steals, 1 block on 50% shooting.

His peak playoff stats also outshine Lebron.

1988: 36, 7 and 5 with 2 steals, 2 blocks on 53% shooting.
1989: 35, 7 and 8 with 2.5 steals, 1 block on 51% shooting.
1990: 37, 7 and 7 with 3 steals, 1 block on 51% shooting.
1991: 31, 6 and 8 with 2.4 steals, 1.4 blocks on 52% shooting.
1992: 35, 6 and 6 with 2 steals, 1 block on 50% shooting.
1993: 35, 7 and 6 with with 2 steals, 1 block on 48% shooting.

Absolutely insane.

And even more insane is that during his peak in 1993 he decided to retire for nearly 2 years.

Now do LeBron.

The fact that this got 24 and-1's is sad.

[SonicMcMahon]

Jordan never made it past the first round of the playoffs without Pippen...

And pippen did without Jordan . So Jordan needed pippen more than pippen needed Jordan

Lol. Context matters. Jordan was ages 21-23 and on one of the worst teams in the league when he played without Pippen. Pippen was on a Title contender with players like Horace Grant, Toni Kukoć, Ron Harper, and BJ Armstrong when Jordan retired for 2 seasons.

In a truly vicious Eastern conference.

[JordansBulls]

6 rings is his strongest argument, Bron has him beat pretty much everywhere else.

Longevity my friend

Not Bron's fault Mike is a quitter.

Actually Lebron is the quitter since he leaves the franchise and joins another with stars. There is a difference in 3 peating with a franchise that never won anything prior to you and then you retire and then come back and 3 peat and then that organization has done nothing ever since.

[MavsDirk41]

Can anyone point me to the thread where someone has actually made a legitimate data driven arguement for MJ as the OP requested?

Because It's not in this thread.

Twytzed did on page 10 but im sure you “overlooked it”

[NZB2323]

Jordan never made it past the first round of the playoffs without Pippen...

This is a very dumb take especially when comparing MJ to Lebron mostly because it’s not like the bulls went straight to the finals and won every year since pippin got there and it’s not like Lebron did anything significant in the playoffs dither then some highlight plays still in all both great players however basketball is a team sport not individual and fyi Lebron haven’t won anything without wade bosh Kyrie love AD so there’s that

Pippen has been beyond the first round of the playoffs several timeswithout Jordan. Lebron dragged a team to the Finals by himself...

By several times do you mean twice?

Pippen without Jordan:
94: loses in 2nd round
99: loses in 1st round
00: loses in WCF
01: loses in 1st round
02: loses in 1st round
03: loses in 1st round

Pippen with Jordan:
88: lost in 2nd round
89: lost in ECF
90: lost in ECF
91: Championship
92: Championship
93: Championship
95: lost in 2nd round
96: Championship
97: Championship
98: Championship

When the Bulls beat the Cavs in 87, do you think it was because of Jordan, who averaged 45, 5, and 5 on 63.2 TS% and hit the series winning shot, or because of Pippen who averaged 11, 5, and 2 on 49.4 TS%?

What is more impressive, Jordan averaging 44, 6, and 6 on 58.4 TS% and losing against the 86 Celtics with Orlando Woolridge, Dave Corzine, Oakley, Paxson, Banks, Green, and Macy, or Pippen averaging 25, 10, and 4 on 53.7 TS% and beating the 95 Cavs with Horace Grant, Toni Kukoc, BJ Armstrong, Lucy Longley, Kerr, Cartwright, and Paxson? Or Pippen averaging 15, 7, and 4 on 52.2 TS% and beating the 2000 Timberwolves and Jazz with Rasheed, Steve Smith, Soudamire, Sabonis, Schrempf, Grant, Greg Anthony, Bonzi Wells, and Jermaine O'Neal?

[MavsDirk41]

The more I watch LeBron put in another year of high level play after basically playing the most professional minutes of anyone that’s ever even seen a basketball and who has also scored more than anyone that has shot one professionally…while also being a top 3 MDE player, I find it hard to put anyone above him. I also can’t give the crown to someone who just got bored with the game and walked away at the height of their powers, regardless of how good they were, it was disrespectful to the sport then and it still is now, and a player like that doesn’t deserve to be the greatest in the sport to me.

Lebron James created a superteam in Miami and Cleveland teaming up with allstars like a coward. He had a chance at a 3 peat and failed miserably. He then goes to LA and fails again so he colludes with Anthony Davis halfway through the season. The 2011 finals performance by James is probably the worst by a top 5 player of alltime. He aint no goat.

[Kilroy]

"Data driven arguments" are generally what people use to argue against a player's greatness, rather than for it... And especially with players that haven't played in a while...

Every bit of positive 'data' can be negated by another piece of 'data' if taken out of the context provided by actually watching a great player play the game...

MJ was head and shoulders better than every other player to play the game besides Kareem arguably... Those 2 are the only players on the Goat Tier... Without the context of watching them play, any 'data' you throw at the argument, is flawed...

[knicksNOTslick]

No 4-6 IS bad, that's a career loser if i see one.

So its better if he lost in the first/second/third round and not make finals because that would make his record look better?

That makes zero sense.

The stupidity around that premise is astounding.

"If only lebron had lost in the first round more, i would have him higher on my list"

Only people who grew up in the participation trophy era want to reward Lebron as GOAT for making it to the Finals more than Jordan despite only winning 4 times to his 6. We are pretty much wanting to reward 2nd place. But it's either you come out the champ or you don't. There is no 2nd place otherwise, props to the Miami Heat for accomplishing so much! I'm sure they are content having gone to the Finals twice in the last 3 years. Give them their rings.

Dominating the East doesn't mean you dominate the NBA especially when the West has been the stronger conference the entire time Lebron has been in the league.

[MavsDirk41]

I think MJ is running out of actual arguments

Their primes are comparable but the longevity is not even close.

Lebron played much better competition in a clearly more talented league

Lebron is also a better all around player.

It’s tough to say anyone is better than a guy that has dramn near 2 decades of MVP level play….

James had way more talent on his teams than Jordan and its not even close. Jordan never played on a team with two other allstars. James did in Miami and Cleveland and still trails Jordan in championships. You lebron james fanboys are delusional