What's the strongest data-driven argument for Michael Jordan as GOAT?

[Jables]

My honest opinion is that any "data-driven community where LeBron has overtaken MJ" is up its own arse. Data supports arguments like these, it doesn't prove anything and anyone using it that way is just proving that their statistical analysis is heavily biased.

A rational argument for MJ goes like this, I do not believe his case can be reasonably disputed yet. He has the greatest playoff winning percentage in modern NBA history and the best scoring average and the defense speaks for itself, of the seasons you can reasonably count with the Bulls he missed playoffs I think once? LeBron has skipped around the league with new stars and missed playoffs 4 times. The only argument for Jordan relying on his team to complete these feats is that he was 1-9 without Pippen who was one of the only consistent factors on the Bulls, but this entirely ignores that the record is due to him taking over a garbage franchise and dragging the Bulls to the playoffs, Pippen wasn't doing much of anything in his first few years.

If the stats aren't advanced enough then well, who cares? I'm not really interested in finding niche advanced stats to support something I already know. You need to dig deep to make a case for LeBron, you don't really have to for MJ.

[Taj FTW]

How about me?

Lebron had Shaq as well lost in round 2 with HCA, while Kobe won 3 titles with Shaq and Wade won a title with Shaq. Lebron also had peak Duncan and Iverson and won bronze medal for America.
Lebron has also lost to every elite big in his era. Lost to Dwight, KG, Dirk while having HCA. Lost to Duncan, Durant, Jokic and then even lost to Devin Booker who put a career high of 47 on him.

Not only that. A guy in his own era has as many titles and beat him head to head more that came in after him without switching teams. And then we compare him Jordan all the while Lebron won bronze medals multiple times despite playing with peak Tim Duncan, Allen Iverson and lost with HCA to Dwight Howard, KG, Dirk all of which were career losers at the time. He also missed the playoffs as much as titles won and would have been more had a mid season trade not happened this year when was 13th in the conference.

Prove me wrong!

You're an absolute NBA forum legend JB. You're.known across all the major NBA forums, and I mean that seriously. Nobody can go toe to toe with you in an NBA debate. HCA!

Its funny you're still masquerading as a Bulls fan when we all know you're just a Lebron stan. Over 3/4's of your post are about Lebron

Imagine being such a simpleton that you can't envision being a LeBron fan and a Bulls fan. That's some caveman, tribalism stuff right there.

Strike for personal attack.

[ThreeMileAllan]

Feels like LeBron has overtaken him in communities like this. What do you think is Jordan's edge?

that's because 70% of the members were born in the 90s

Not really. There’s a fantastic player ranking project going on in the player comparison board with actual substantive debate full of nuanced discussion. Much better than the post quality you see here.

Those guys are all clowns who fall back on cumulative stats because that's all they have.

But they can have that corner of the internet. Even flat-earthers have a space to feel safe nowadays.

Sent from my SM-S918U1 using Tapatalk

[jehosafats]

And you think that Lebron would win 6 titles with the bulls?

Without question. And that's not even factoring in that LeBron wouldn't be quitting on the team.

lol, yeah LeBron famously has never quit on his team before

Lebron famously came back from a 3-1 deficit against a 73-win team to win Cleveland their first title

[MavsDirk41]

Nobody here is old enough to remember watching Wilt's entire career. Therefore, nobody can say any player is better than Wilt. Rock solid logic.

Maybe Wilt is the goat kid. Maybe Russell is the goat. I never watched them play but i did watch Jordan and James play and Jordan is better.

If you are gonna run your arrogant mouth on here about substansive data backing James over Jordan you better put it on here too.

Since you watched both MJ and LeBron play, it looks like you have a lot of wisdom.

Could you please explain to us why MJ didn't do anything in his career without Pippen and Phil? Why could he only win when he had the most stacked team in the league?

And please explain why Lebron keeps going on deep playoff runs, with different players and coaches , super teams or not?

Please don't try to judge the questions, as you seem to know a lot a out basketball, we would be very happy to be enlightened with your knowledge.

You mean his first 3 years in the league and his last two when he was old with Washington? He broke his foot year 2 and only played 17 regular season games. That year he came back for the playoffs and went crazy against Birds Celtics. The East had Detroit which won two championships and Birds Celtics. The Bulls sucked when Chicago drafted Jordan. Pippen was drafted 3 years later and he wasnt very good his first two years in the league. Bird busted his back up and the Bulls finally got past Detroit when Pippen developed. Those Washington teams were terrible and Jordan was old. Who is the East had a better roster than James Miami Heat team with Wade and Bosh? Who in the East had a better roster than James Cleveland team with Love and Irving? What did he do his first year in LA without Davis? I see your sarcasm in there. Sorry you are upset pal. Just stating facts.

[MavsDirk41]

If you replace LeBron with MJ, how rings does MJ get? Does he beat the Mavs? Probably. Does he beat the Warriors? Nope. It's a wash.

And you think that Lebron would win 6 titles with the bulls?

Without question. And that's not even factoring in that LeBron wouldn't be quitting on the team.

Didnt he leave Cleveland twice and Miami? Am i mistaken about this? So you can leave a team but you cant retire? How so?

[JN61]

Sure buddy

[MavsDirk41]

Spoiler:

You might want to check Pippen and Grant vs Pacers George and Hawks Horford age for age and season by season performance specifically early mid 20’s I.e peak/prime play. The metrics may/may not surprise you

People forget his first stint which is a players half career (7 seasons) was pretty awful.

Metrics are for nerds! He goes with his gut.

Arent you the moron who said Horace Grant was better than Chris Bosh cause win shares? Clown

Make your point without the personal attacks.

You are 100% correct. Thats on me. I shouldnt let that guy get under my skin. My fault there.

[OdomFan]

Since you watched both MJ and LeBron play, it looks like you have a lot of wisdom.

Could you please explain to us why MJ didn't do anything in his career without Pippen and Phil? Why could he only win when he had the most stacked team in the league?

And please explain why Lebron keeps going on deep playoff runs, with different players and coaches , super teams or not?

Please don't try to judge the questions, as you seem to know a lot a out basketball, we would be very happy to be enlightened with your knowledge.

Pippen was a role player when he came to the Bulls and Phil Jackson was a CBA coach. Had Phil coached someone else prior and did something then you can use that logic. Hell Pippen with Hakeem and Barkley lost in round 1.
Lebron lost in round 2 with Shaq with HCA. He won bronze medal with peak Duncan and Iverson. He lost with hca to Dwight who was a career loser. Steph has as many titles as him in less years and beat him head to head more.

Sounds like excuses to me.

Pippen almost came back from 3-1 vs prime Shaq* and baby Kobe in 2000 WCF.
He was older than when he lost with Hakeem and Charles.

We know Lebron has failures, and he gets grilled with them. He lost in Olympics, ok we count that against him.
He lost to Dwight in ECF. Sure, We count that against him.

But answer the questions don't dance around it.

Why did MJ not do anything without Pippen and Phil?
And how come LeBron went on deep playoff runs with different players and coaches, super teams or not?

So what was MJ supposed to do about that? Leave the Bulls to go play some where else, or ask for a new coach and second best player? that has never been the way team sports works when a star was part of something successful.. No one has ever just decided that their legacy might take a hit if they only win with this teammate and this coach...like what? The whole point of building a winning roster is to stick with it once you get something that works.

The Bulls did that when they brought in Pippen via trade during the draft and developed him into a star next to MJ. They did that when they took that chance on hiring Phil Jackson as their head coach and he along with his coaching staff used that triangle offense system to maximize Michael Jordans full potential in leading the team as well as the rest of the roster to play well around him.

I'm sorry but what is the problem about any of that again? You're being absolutely unrealistic (and ridiculous) with such a question all because you dislike that MJ and those Bulls succeeded.

Moving on to your other point. "Pippen almost came back from 3-1 vs prime Shaq* and baby Kobe in 2000 WCF.
He was older than when he lost with Hakeem and Charles. "

Firstly "Scottie" didn't almost come back vs anybody, the team did. Scottie Pippen wasn't even the best player on the 2000 Portland Trailblazers. That was Rasheed Wallace's team. Sheed had that same Portland squad in the Western Conference Finals 1 year before that while Pippen was trying to win with Hakeem and Barkley in Houston. Ironically losing to the Lakers in the first round then. So I get why he left but its silly to act like he did all the work, and then turn around and act like it's so historic that those Blazers did as well as they did against the Lakers. Like I said before, they were already a very good team. So all Pippen had to do was be the veteran voice that they needed, and then it worked. It also didn't hurt that Pippen was very familar with the triangle offense that those Lakers were using seeing as though its the exact same system that the Bulls were using when he played for Phil in the 90s... common sense man.

Reality is Lebron left teams behind as soon as the going got tough on 3 different occasions. That is why he gets the hate he gets for that. When the going got tough for MJ he stuck around, worked with who he had to work with. Pippen came along. Developed into a star next to him. The triangle offense was brought in with Phil and Tex and they never looked back. It would have made 0 sense for anyone to walk away from that so that years later some fans out there wouldn't question their legacies over not winning else where. Especially compared to someone (Lebron) who kept leaving as soon as things were starting to fall apart.

[JKiddy]

6/6

Nuff said!

[JKiddy]

Jordan played for one team his entire career and was forced to retire and come back as a Wizard (to leave Chicago). None of that was his fault. They were mismanaged. It is well documented.

Jordan NEVER LOST A FINALS. I am young enough to understand the LeBron argument. But, I am old and wise enough to have seen Jordan and understand he was a level beyond LeBron. The only reason LeBron is in the conversation is because he played many more seasons longer than Jordan and he has won several titles. But, LeBron has lost way too many titles that Jordan would have won.

To make this easier for younger people to understand. If Jordan went to the REC in 2k he would be a 99 rating and win 85% of the games with the same cast as LeBron who would be a 96 rating and win 70% of the games.

Are they close? Kind of but not really. Jordan had the killer instinct and did not force franchises to remake teams around him. He didn't leave teams after not getting his way. He truly stuck with the Bulls through everything until management closed shop on his team and coach a year or two before they should have.

Jordan retired multiple times and came back which further limited his statistics and gave him some rust. But, he was so good that he was still light years beyond any other player of his time (including many First Ballot HOFs).

Jordan > LeBron and it is not as close as come think. They are both unique and are two of the best players ever. LeBron's longevity is the reason he is so highly regarded. I would take both on my team anyday. But, Jordan is above LeBron and he would even admit that if you gave him truth serum or 3 drinks.

[ChiTownHero1992]

I love that a lot of people's biggest argument is "jordan did nothing without Pippen", well LBJ had no success without a secondary either (Wade/Bosh, Love/Kyrie, AD) to me they had basically the same Playoffs careers except that Jordan got the job done more often!

Jordan (Playoffs in every year he played besides last 2 with Rebuilding WAS)
Year 1 (age 21) - Lost Round 1 (1-3) - Rookie Year
Year 2 - Lost Round 1 (0-3) - stacked BOS who won Championship
Year 3 - Lost Round 1(0-3) - stacked BOS who lost Championship
Year 4 - Lost Round 2 (1-4) - stacked DET who lost Game 7 of Championship
Year 5 - Lost in ECF (2-4) - stacked DET who won Championship
Year 6 - Lost in ECF (3-4) - stacked DET who won Championship
Year 7 - Won Championship
Year 8 - Won Championship
Year 9 - Won Championship
Year 10 - Retired *did not play*
Year 11 - Played 27 total games (RS+PO) Lost in Round 2 (2-4) - Shaq led ORL that lost Championship
Year 12 - Won Championship
Year 13 - Won Championship
Year 14 - Won Championship
Year 15 - Retired *did not play*
Year 16 - Retired *did not play*
Year 17 - Retired *did not play*
Year 18 - Came Back after not playing for 3 years, 60 games on a rebuild 37-45 WAS team
Year 19 - 82 games on a rebuild 37-45 WAS team
Totals - 13 playoff appearances in 15 total years played, 8 Conference FInals trips (6-2), 6 Championships (6-0), 1 second round exit, 3 first round exits, 2 missed playoffs

LBJ
Year 1 - Missed playoffs
Year 2 - Missed playoffs
Year 3 (age 21) - Lost Round 2 (3-4) - reigning Champion DET who did not get to Finals
Year 4 - Lost Finals (0-4) - stacked Spurs
Year 5 - Lost Round 2 (3-4) - stacked Bos who won Championship
Year 6 - Lost ECF (2-4) - Dwight led ORL that lost Championship
Year 7 - Lost Round 2 (2-4) - stacked Bos who lost Championship
Year 8 - Lost Finals (2-4) - to Mavs
Year 9 - Won Championship
Year 10 - Won Championship
Year 11 - Lost Finals (1-4) - to Spurs
Year 12 - Lost Finals (2-4) - to Warriors
Year 13 - Won Championship
Year 14 - Lost Finals (1-4) - to Warriors
Year 15 - Lost FInals (0-4) - to Warriors
Year 16 - Missed Playoffs
Year 17 - Won Championship
Year 18 - Lost Round 1 (2-4) - to Suns team who lost Championship
Year 19 - Missed Playoffs
Year 20 - Lost WCF (0-4) - to Nugs that Won Championship
Totals - 15 playoff appearances in 20 years, 12 Conference Finals trips (10-2), 4 Championships/10 appearances (4-6), 2 second round exits, 1 first round exit, 4 missed playoffs

You take out the 4 years Jordan retired and 2 years Jordan had to play NCAA they had virtually the same opportunities but Jordan had more success:
LBJ - 2/7 championships, 12 playoff appearances in 15 years, 9 Conference finals trips (7-2), 2 second round exits, 1 first round exit, 2 missed playoffs

[JN61]

Feels like LeBron has overtaken him in communities like this

When did this happen

Just amongst people who have yet to hit puberty lol

All the young guys in their mid 20s who will start their arguments with ''I grew up with Jordan''.

[JN61]

You're an absolute NBA forum legend JB. You're.known across all the major NBA forums, and I mean that seriously. Nobody can go toe to toe with you in an NBA debate. HCA!

Its funny you're still masquerading as a Bulls fan when we all know you're just a Lebron stan. Over 3/4's of your post are about Lebron

Imagine being such a simpleton that you can't envision being a LeBron fan and a Bulls fan. That's some caveman, tribalism stuff right there.

Ah the typical RGM moderating where people who are siding with Lebron or Curry can throw insults left and right and other people get forum warnings.

[KrAzY3]

Pippen was a role player when he came to the Bulls and Phil Jackson was a CBA coach. Had Phil coached someone else prior and did something then you can use that logic. Hell Pippen with Hakeem and Barkley lost in round 1.
Lebron lost in round 2 with Shaq with HCA. He won bronze medal with peak Duncan and Iverson. He lost with hca to Dwight who was a career loser. Steph has as many titles as him in less years and beat him head to head more.

Sounds like excuses to me.

Pippen almost came back from 3-1 vs prime Shaq* and baby Kobe in 2000 WCF.
He was older than when he lost with Hakeem and Charles.

We know Lebron has failures, and he gets grilled with them. He lost in Olympics, ok we count that against him.
He lost to Dwight in ECF. Sure, We count that against him.

But answer the questions don't dance around it.

Why did MJ not do anything without Pippen and Phil?
And how come LeBron went on deep playoff runs with different players and coaches, super teams or not?

So what was MJ supposed to do about that? Leave the Bulls to go play some where else, or ask for a new coach and second best player? that has never been the way team sports works when a star was part of something successful.. No one has ever just decided that their legacy might take a hit if they only win with this teammate and this coach...like what? The whole point of building a winning roster is to stick with it once you get something that works.

The Bulls did that when they brought in Pippen via trade during the draft and developed him into a star next to MJ. They did that when they took that chance on hiring Phil Jackson as their head coach and he along with his coaching staff used that triangle offense system to maximize Michael Jordans full potential in leading the team as well as the rest of the roster to play well around him.

I'm sorry but what is the problem about any of that again? You're being absolutely unrealistic (and ridiculous) with such a question all because you dislike that MJ and those Bulls succeeded.

The irony is some people have twisted things around so much that sticking with a team and a coach has become a bad thing to them. Oh Jordan only won with the Bulls, Jordan didn't win with three different teams.

Man... if Jordan team jumped searching for rings how many could he have gotten? He'd have demanded trades or what ever, teamed up with people like Bird on the Celtics, or may be Utah so he could play with Stockton and Malone, etc... Heck does anyone here think Jordan couldn't have just joined the same Rockets team Pippen was on and not have won playing along side Barkley and Hakeem?

The reason people have to cite Pippen so much is because he's the only player that was on all six of those Jordan championship teams. He's the only guy that people can point to go and go oh there's some other guy we can try to give credit to.

Does it matter that Pippen's impact has been inflated solely to try and make this argument? Not to those people...
Remember, Jordan won a NCAA championship playing without Pippen. He won a Olympic gold medal as an amateur playing against pros, without Pippen. He didn't get his championship pedigree from Pippen, he was already a champion before he ever met him.

[DOT]

I'm not really interested in finding niche advanced stats to support something I already know

Me neither

That's why I laugh at these globe-heads trying to use their fancy math to tell me the earth is round when I already know it's flat.

[Stannis]

I never cared for "he never lost in the finals". Most superstars don't take a break when they are "unmotivated". I wouldn't think less of Jordan if he was 6 out of 9 in the NBA finals.

However, to me it's all about the 2 three-peats. Doing it once was impressive. Doing it twice is crazy.

[Marrrcuss]

Just saw one of yall say Jordan has the best playoffs winning percentage.

Is that really true? Think real hard about it then come back and delete that dumb shyt.

Oh wait, only the finals count, right?

[TheNG]

Feels like LeBron has overtaken him in communities like this. What do you think is Jordan's edge?

Maybe you feel this way, but I never saw any data that supports your claim that "LeBron has overtaken him in communities like this".
So it makes me feel Jordan is still considered the GOAT, even in communities like this.
Do you have any data-driven argument for "LeBron has overtaken him in communities like this"?

[stepic]

Without question. And that's not even factoring in that LeBron wouldn't be quitting on the team.

lol, yeah LeBron famously has never quit on his team before

Lebron famously came back from a 3-1 deficit against a 73-win team to win Cleveland their first title

he quit the cavs to create a super team because he was so worried about not winning anything. i mean that is literally 'quitting on the team'. the fact he came back after he had a few rings is irrelevant.