RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #2 (Kareem Abdul-Jabbar)

Moderators: trex_8063, penbeast0, PaulieWal, Clyde Frazier, Doctor MJ

rk2023
Starter
Posts: 2,266
And1: 2,273
Joined: Jul 01, 2022
   

Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #2 (Deadline 7/6 11:59pm) 

Post#161 » by rk2023 » Thu Jul 6, 2023 9:41 pm

LukaTheGOAT wrote:Great post. However, I see you think of 87 Jordan as a fringe MVP level guy. What do you believe separates a 06 Kobe year from a 87 Jordan? I could be wrong but I believe you have 06 Kobe at Strong MVP at minimum. There's not much evidence that Kobe was a huge needle mover on defense at this point.


I think Kobe at this point had a better effect of scoring gravity and not as much a feeling of scoring blindness. Might be unfair since we don’t have it, but I’m unsure if Jordan is providing a lift akin to a 110->92 (06 Lakers offense with vs without Kobe on). Furthermore, I view his defense as a mild positive while Jordan strikes me as the same degree of a negative that year - if that helps.
Mogspan wrote:I think they see the super rare combo of high IQ with freakish athleticism and overrate the former a bit, kind of like a hot girl who is rather articulate being thought of as “super smart.” I don’t know kind of a weird analogy, but you catch my drift.
70sFan
RealGM
Posts: 30,140
And1: 25,421
Joined: Aug 11, 2015
 

Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #2 (Deadline 7/6 11:59pm) 

Post#162 » by 70sFan » Thu Jul 6, 2023 9:43 pm

ZeppelinPage wrote:
Dr Positivity wrote:All of this sounds great. However, I have a confession to make, it's something that conflicts me in regards to him. I just don't like the eye test for Russell that much. Walton's D in 77 finals stands out more to me. Blackmill went on a limb a few years ago talking about it, and I always remembered it cause a part of me thought he wasn't crazy. Now the footage for Russell is limited and driven by the older version, and maybe he plays differently against Wilt. It's possible the league did improve a lot from late 60s to 77 finals. I did see how the other teams intentionally avoid him on D. Still, I never got the Holy Sht feeling that you would expect for the BY FAR best defender ever to the point where he could be number 1 all time with comparatively weak offensive stats (I will say the eye test is probably better for Russell doing things on offense than his numbers). The only clip where it really felt "right" was watching this Royals clip - but it's just a highlights. Still, you can see the special defensive athleticism.

Now if you removed the EXTREMME level of success, like Russian skywalker clips level of extreme, you could make a plausible case that the media and league got wowed by the crazy blocked shots which is something they continue to do today for blk shot driven defenders like Ibaka over subtle ones like Marc Gasol, and likewise, players like Sanders and Havlicek could have been underrated on D compared to him,. Except for the reasons I laid out, I think it may actually be impossible this is the case, to have THE dominant pro sports dynasty and to repeatedly beat all those elite level offensive players, and to keep doing it with turnover and age, to still be good enough when he's not even in his prime to beat 68 Sixers, 69 Knicks and 69 Lakers? Overall, it doesn't add up, as I said before, he has to be way better than Cowens, the 70s Celtics situation is not that much worse than what Russell had around him, yes it's a little worse (White worse than Jones, depth dies after the top 6 guys or so, albeit the 4th-6th ones like Silas, Westphal, Nelson are pretty nice) but this is also a league thinned out by more teams and ABA, their competition is worse than the mid 60s teams too, eg. look who Celtics had to beat in 76.


I agree with your point of view. Having extensively studied all the available Russell film from 70sFan's archive, I do find his overall defensive abilities impressive, despite fewer 'wow' moments than one would expect for the GOAT defender and some occasional mistakes. I do question whether his defensive dominance, compared to players like Hakeem, Wilt, or Kareem, compensates enough for his offensive shortcomings. The way I look at it, since he isn't on par with other players offensively, he has less margin for error on defense. Consequently, the footage should very clearly depict him as superior to the best of his contemporaries, which I don't personally find.

It's not that Russell isn't phenomenal; it's just that he needs to perform so exceptionally well that it elevates his value above that of other two-way players. However, it's still important to credit Russell for introducing unprecedented defensive strategies and recognize that he didn't have the luxury of studying players and tactics decades before his time. When taking that into account, I could certainly respect why someone might value him as the greatest player ever.

Let me make this clear: I'm not suggesting that Russell wasn't instrumental to the Celtics dynasty. They couldn't have won as much as they did without his defensive abilities, and he unquestionably deserves consideration for the title of greatest defensive player ever. It's just that I don't believe he surpasses certain players defensively by a large enough margin.

And it's true that the league was astonished by his ability to block shots, but keep in mind that the newspapers weren't giving as much credit to Russell over the established players like Cousy early on. Auerbach noticed this and knew Russell was sensitive so he got the team together and convinced them that one writer wasn't going to break the team apart. I think Auerbach would make sure to give Russell his due credit in the media so that he felt appreciated and the league recognized his talents. This meant promoting him more over other players, but Russell's role was not as flashy as scoring points, and it was the key to the success of their team, so it should be praised.

So, how can we reconcile this with the Celtics' dynasty? I believe the supporting cast, after decades, is now somewhat underrated. I mean, the Celtics were quite a few games ahead for 1st place before Russell and Ramsey even arrived, so they were at least a contending team. The majority of the Celtics were defensively sound and could shoulder the scoring burden that Russell couldn't. I've always maintained that while Russell was the linchpin, gaining possessions for his team and limiting them for the opposition, he needed teammates who could score points and capitalize on the possessions he secured--a mutually beneficial relationship between Russell and his team.

I will touch the eye-test point.

I understand that some people don't view Russell as the clear best defensive player in footage we have. It's very, very hard to differentiate between two great defenders without necessary data and if you focus your tracking work very heavily on only one elite defender, you may start to see mistakes and think "wait, I haven't seen Walton/Hakeem/whoever doing such mistakes as often". The problem with Russell is that he's accepted as the defensive GOAT, so people often focus on his defense when they watch 1960s Celtics footage way more than in case of other all-time greats. Without reliable data, it gives us an assumption that Russell wasn't really that elite when we compare him to other defenders we don't study nearly as deeply and remember mostly their great moments.

I have been studying footage for the best centers in the league history for the last 2 years. I haven't finished my Russell evaluation yet (I've got a lot of new footage during that period), but I can give you estimations of the number of shots contested by the best centers in the league history based on my tracking data. The numbers include - contests per game (cpg), rotations preventing or stopping inside shots (grpg), bad contests or late/bad rotations inside (bppg):


1962-69 Russell (22 incomplete games): 9.2 cpg, 2.7 grpg, 3.3 bppg

1993-94 Hakeem (35 games): 7.7 cpg, 3.6 grpg, 3.2 bppg
1962-68 Wilt (19 incomplete games): 7.2 cpg, 1.0 grpg, 3.9 bppg
1971-79 Kareem (30 games): 6.4 cpg, 3.1 grpg, 4.7 bppg
2002-03 Duncan (21 games): 4.3 cpg, 3.3 grpg, 2.4 bppg
2000-01 Shaq (45 games): 3.8 cpg, 1.6 grpg, 4.7 bppg
1973-77 Gilmore (14 games): 4.3 cpg, 3.4 grpg, 6.0 bppg
1982-83 Moses (22 games): 3.2 cpg, 1.3 grpg, 4.3 bppg

A few notes:

- data isn't adjusted for minutes played, so 1960s and 1970s players have bigger volume due to higher mpg,
- my data is still incomplete, I hope to update Russell numbers in the near future,
- my estimations give Russell more successfully contested shots than any other player in the sample by a significant margin,
- Russell did relatively few mistakes in comparison to his activity inside,
- unsurprisingly, only Hakeem has comparable number of positive plays inside to Russell (with similar number of "bad" plays),
- Duncan data doesn't include 2003 playoffs for now, so his contests numbers will likely go higher with bigger sample, it's interesting how rarely Duncan made mistakes as a rim protector (he's also less active than Russell or Hakeem though),
- 1960s bigs have less representative samples because a big part of games I have are not from full broadcasts unfortunately, I got some 1969 Celtics footage recently though, which should stabilize the sample a little more,
- no Walton yet unfortunately and only 6 tracked games for Robinson, so I don't think it makes sense to bring it up.

This is only about rim protection data, which isn't even the main argument for Russell over these centers. You have to take into account that Russell was more active than all of these players outside the paint (maybe other than Hakeem) and way more willing to switch on perimeter than any other of these players (including Hakeem).

Russell also posted these numbers with fairly low foul rate and excellent rebounding numbers (likely the best DRB% of the bunch, though I never tried to estimate it - I know that trex did it a few years ago when I shared the footage I found with him).

As I mentioned, I haven't reached Walton in my analysis yet, but from what I have seen I feel quite comfortable with picking Russell as the most talented, most impactful and best defender among all players I have studied. Hakeem is a reasonably close one, but he didn't have the same motor (at least in tracked years, when I tracked a few earlier years he looked wild) and I think his style had more reactive nature than in Russell's case.

I hope that with more footage the subject will be clearer, but that's my opinion for now. Feel free to ask additional questions, I hope I will find the time to answer.
User avatar
eminence
RealGM
Posts: 17,056
And1: 11,868
Joined: Mar 07, 2015

Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #2 (Deadline 7/6 11:59pm) 

Post#163 » by eminence » Thu Jul 6, 2023 9:54 pm

rk2023 wrote:
LukaTheGOAT wrote:Great post. However, I see you think of 87 Jordan as a fringe MVP level guy. What do you believe separates a 06 Kobe year from a 87 Jordan? I could be wrong but I believe you have 06 Kobe at Strong MVP at minimum. There's not much evidence that Kobe was a huge needle mover on defense at this point.


I think Kobe at this point had a better effect of scoring gravity and not as much a feeling of scoring blindness. Might be unfair since we don’t have it, but I’m unsure if Jordan is providing a lift akin to a 110->92 (06 Lakers offense with vs without Kobe on). Furthermore, I view his defense as a mild positive while Jordan strikes me as the same degree of a negative that year - if that helps.


I agree on the offensive side, but would likely flip defensive assessments.

Overall similar grades from me though. ‘87 MJ as a high end All-NBA guy, ‘06 Kobe as a mid tier MVP.
I bought a boat.
70sFan
RealGM
Posts: 30,140
And1: 25,421
Joined: Aug 11, 2015
 

Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #2 (Deadline 7/6 11:59pm) 

Post#164 » by 70sFan » Thu Jul 6, 2023 10:07 pm

I created a video of all relevant Duncan offensive possessions against Shaq from 2002 WCSF:



If you don't have the time/energy to watch it, here are the numbers:

Total: 13/39 FG, 8 fouls drawn
ISO scoring: 6/17 FG, 4 ast, 3 tov, 5 fouls drawn

Game 1
Spoiler:
Total: 5/14 FG, 0 fouls drawn
ISO scoring: 3/6 FG, 1 ast, 1 tov, 0 fouls drawn


Game 2
Spoiler:
Total: 1/3 FG, 1 fouls drawn
ISO scoring: 0/0 FG, 0 ast, 0 tov, 0 fouls drawn


Game 3
Spoiler:
Total: 3/7 FG, 1 fouls drawn
ISO scoring: 2/4 FG, 0 ast, 0 tov, 1 fouls drawn


Game 4
Spoiler:
Total: 0/2 FG, 3 fouls drawn
ISO scoring: 0/2 FG, 1 ast, 0 tov, 2 fouls drawn


Game 5
Spoiler:
Total: 4/13 FG, 3 fouls drawn
ISO scoring: 1/5 FG, 2 ast, 2 tov, 2 fouls drawn


I will upload the same video with Shaq offensive plays vs Duncan, but unfortunately my old laptop has some problem with rendering the video. I hope everything will be fine tomorrow.
Doctor MJ
Senior Mod
Senior Mod
Posts: 53,535
And1: 22,531
Joined: Mar 10, 2005
Location: Cali
     

Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #2 (Deadline 7/6 11:59pm) 

Post#165 » by Doctor MJ » Thu Jul 6, 2023 10:08 pm

iggymcfrack wrote:
f4p wrote:
Dooley wrote:
With regard to Russell's offense - he obviously provided some value from screening, passing, and o-rebounding. But I have a really hard time thinking that even comes close to making up for his weaknesses putting the ball in the hoop even by the standards of his time and his poor FT shooting. I really do not see the evidence that Russell could have developed into a good scorer if he had wanted to, or that he would be a three-point shooter if he played today, or anything like that - I don't know what that justification is for that, and it's definitely not anything he actually displayed in his career.

So his value as a player came almost entirely from his defense.


that's my issue with russell, certainly for a GOAT case. his offense just wasn't good. i think people want it to be good, they want to believe he "played the right way", so he gets credit for the non-scoring parts of offense. and sure, he had some decent assist totals. but his scoring is shockingly bad. russell and wilt are the 2 athletic giants of their era. russell was apparently an olympic level athlete (though that wouldn't hold up in today's world of specialization). and there is of course that video of him going the length of the court and jumping from just a step inside the free throw line and OVER ANOTHER PLAYER as he lays it in. that would be freakishly athletic today. and he was doing this in the much less athletic 60's (or maybe late 50's). he would seem to be almost every bit the athletic freak wilt was.

and yet wilt could score 50 points per game, have 400+ TS Add seasons, and basically set every scoring record in history. and russell wasn't even an average scorer per minute on his own teams. and shot 56% from the line. and had a negative career TS Add! do you know how hard it is for someone as tall and athletic as russell was compared to his era to end up with a negative TS Add? it beggars belief. it couldn't have been infrequent for him to grab 10+ offensive rebounds in a game. presumably right by the rim for an easy putback or tip in. and with all the transition in those fast-paced days, a gazelle like russell should have feasted in transition. and then there's just the various dump-off passes or post-ups on overmatched guys.

how does that guy end up with a negative TS Add? how does that guy have a career high 37 points? just by accident, you would think he would have had a couple of 50 games just from a 20+ offensive rebound night here or there.

and it's not as if he was just doing it for the team. the celtics were not a good offensive team. by the same ratings calculations that say their defense was legendary, they once won a title with the worst offense in the league. now maybe russell just thought he was playing the right way and intuited wrongly, the opposite of the way he intuited the correct way to play on defense. but the evidence, especially the 56 FT% and negative TS Add, suggest he just was not very good at offense.

so you're relying almost entirely on his defense. which almost certainly has an era-boost that simply would never again be available to other great bigs. playing in a new-ish, underdeveloped league with a smaller talent pool, in a game where hall of fame guards were struggling to crack 35% from the field and practically all value was derived close to the basket where russell loomed. and, in addition, a league where teams were playing with well over 100 possessions and players were playing well over 40 minutes, giving russell something like 30-50% more on court possessions per game to apply his impact compared to modern big men. he very well should be more impactful just for that (well, wilt also).


This is kinda where I’m at with Russell. Like the discussions in this thread have got me to move him up from #13 all-time to #11 all-time ahead of Magic and Chris Paul, but I just don’t see how he’s better at basketball than David Robinson. If someone’s a crazy all-time defensive player AND they’re tremendous on offense and they do both against much better competition, how are they not just better than someone who’s only good at defense and is average at best offensively?

I feel like the focus is always all on Russell being an all-time winner when maybe it should be more on Wilt being an all-time loser. When it’s an 8-team league, sometimes only 2 teams with winning records will make the playoffs. If Wilts choking with his terrible team play, it kinda just gives Bill a free ride to a ring. I feel like every year that goes by I push Russell a little higher and Wilt a little lower, but ultimately, I think there’s a better case that they’re both very flawed superstars than there is it that they just happened to be two super duper all-timers playing at the same time in a very weak league.


Bringing this over from the #1 thread. I may go back and forth as to whose comment I'm speaking toward, but since you're all on a similar theme it made sense to just grab this nested-quote post.

So to Dooley's original point, I'd point to my post above to get the general outline. Basically, Russell was NOT a defensive specialist in college. A defensive superstar? Sure, but he was the #1 scorer just like you'd expect from an outlier talent.

I'll also point out - just because it occurs to me right now - that in the 1956 Olympics, Russell was the lead scorer on that team was which was far more dominant than the 1952 Olympic team had been - and that Bob Kurland, the closest thing to a defensive analogue to Russell before Russell, had NOT been the lead scorer on the team in either 1948 or 1952.

This then to say that if you were looking at Russell coming out of college, you literally would not see him as a weak offensive player incapable of leading his team as a scorer. Russell becoming an offensive role player in the pros is entirely about what was decided upon by Red Auerbach, who had a team whose offense was built around Bob Cousy and Bill Sharman.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

f4p asks questions about negative TS Add and career highs in scoring.

Re: negative TS Add. I think we have to understand the broader context of Celtic TS Add. From '56-57 to '78-79, the Celtics had 3 positive TS Add seasons total, and none of those were seasons they won the title. The Celtics had a TS Add early in Russell's career when he had a positive TS Add, and so him falling back to negativity wasn't really about him dragging the team down, so much as the league getting more effective at offense and the Celtics not.

I really think there's no doubt that Russell could have been used to be a positive TS Add guy if that had been the Celtics' goal...but that's in general not what the Celtics were getting form their guys, and while that's a knock on all of them to some degree, the fact that all of this was happening while the Celtics won title after title makes me think we need to be cautious here about seeing the Celtic offense as a failed offense. Were they winning because of their offense? No...but neither were they strategically trying to win with offense.

Re: career high 37, why no accidental 50. So, I'd say what you're doing here is looking at career high as "capacity" - as in "Could he get 50?" - when I think focusing on expectations for variance is the more fruitful point.

It's understandable to think that variance would allow a guy to go for 50 at some point if he were capable of it, but variance isn't mere randomness, it's driven by specific things.

In the modern game, much of what we're talking about is shooting luck/heat. Guys who shoot more from outside have more variance, and nowadays they shoot 3's, which adds even more to it.

If you're a big though, what causes extreme positive outliers to scoring volume?

I'd expect we'd all point to matchup there because there's no reason to think a guy shooting from close is going to "be on a heater". As such, if a guy were playing in a context where the team leaned on his volume scoring when there was the right matchup, we'd expect his big scoring games to be against teams with awful interior defense.

Thing is, I think the easiest way to look for this is to look at scoring averages in playoff series, and two of Russell's top 4 PPG series came against Wilt. If that was a strategic choice on Red's part, hard to imagine it was because he saw Wilt's D as more exploitable on the interior than most other teams.

Fundamentally then, I just don't think the Celtics ever really went into an "exploit the interior with Russell's athletic advantage" offensive mode. Just getting his shots in the flow likely just meant that he wasn't going to get enough shots to make 50 just because he had an advantage.

This is an area where, however we end up scoring Russell, I think it's not unfair to say it's a sign of relatively primitive tactics on the part of Red. I think Red was brilliant and figured out all sorts of advantages to help his team win against their competition...but I think a cutting-edge modern coach would be looking to make sure that Russell was ready to volume score if the opposing team didn't take his threat seriously. If you think of Red as something a bit more of a Bud-type coach, who develops an optimal scheme and then lets/hopes his players figure out the rest, I think it makes sense.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

To iggy's question about "Russell better than Robinson?", I think this is a perfectly fine thing to end up focusing on. As I've said, I'm not going primarily based on a head-to-head comparison across time so much as I am focused on what was actually achieved, but I can say that in a nutshell I think Russell's defense is considerably stronger than Robinson's. I think Russell had a fluidity to his motion that Robinson's rival Olajuwon is considerably closer to.

My guess is though that you're mostly focused on the offensive side of the comparison and feel Robinson's advantage there is just too much. Understandable, and maybe it is...but people certainly expected that Wilt's scoring would be too much of an advantage too, and it didn't prove so.

On iggy's point about perhaps Russell's winning being more about Wilt "choking" away chances to win, I can't take that too seriously. Mind you, I think Wilt had less-than-fine mental moments in his career, but in general Wilt's teams didn't actually get upset all that much in the playoffs, and most years his teams were doing considerably more winning than losing in the regular season.

While I think it's worthwhile to deep dive into how the Celtics beat Wilt's teams in the playoffs, given that the Celtics were most years better than Wilt's teams all year long, I think we can just ask: Why were the Celtics better?

And the short answer there is virtually always: just "Defense" against their opponents in general, Wilt or no Wilt.

We can ponder why Wilt's team's offenses weren't better than they were of course...but they were basically always effective enough on offense to beat the Celtics if the Celtics didn't have the defensive edge.

The story of the '60s is the Celtic defense, and everything else, really is secondary to this.
Getting ready for the RealGM 100 on the PC Board

Come join the WNBA Board if you're a fan!
One_and_Done
General Manager
Posts: 9,370
And1: 5,639
Joined: Jun 03, 2023

Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #2 (Deadline 7/6 11:59pm) 

Post#166 » by One_and_Done » Thu Jul 6, 2023 10:27 pm

70sFan wrote:I created a video of all relevant Duncan offensive possessions against Shaq from 2002 WCSF:



If you don't have the time/energy to watch it, here are the numbers:

Total: 13/39 FG, 8 fouls drawn
ISO scoring: 6/17 FG, 4 ast, 3 tov, 5 fouls drawn

Game 1
Spoiler:
Total: 5/14 FG, 0 fouls drawn
ISO scoring: 3/6 FG, 1 ast, 1 tov, 0 fouls drawn


Game 2
Spoiler:
Total: 1/3 FG, 1 fouls drawn
ISO scoring: 0/0 FG, 0 ast, 0 tov, 0 fouls drawn


Game 3
Spoiler:
Total: 3/7 FG, 1 fouls drawn
ISO scoring: 2/4 FG, 0 ast, 0 tov, 1 fouls drawn


Game 4
Spoiler:
Total: 0/2 FG, 3 fouls drawn
ISO scoring: 0/2 FG, 1 ast, 0 tov, 2 fouls drawn


Game 5
Spoiler:
Total: 4/13 FG, 3 fouls drawn
ISO scoring: 1/5 FG, 2 ast, 2 tov, 2 fouls drawn


I will upload the same video with Shaq offensive plays vs Duncan, but unfortunately my old laptop has some problem with rendering the video. I hope everything will be fine tomorrow.

While it is good to see more Duncan vs Shaq footage in what was one of their pivotal match ups, i think the stats are going to be a little misleading.

Why? For the same reason Shaq would have defensive problems in today's game. The issue isn't that Shaq doesn't provide good rim protection when challenged. We all know how hard he was to dunk on. The issue is he's relatively slow and lazy, and would get killed in pick and roll. So many of Duncan's baskets come from Shaq just being out of position or slow to rotate and not in a position to contest in thre first place. Looking only at how he does when he's in position and going up to challenge is far too generous to him.
Warspite wrote:Billups was a horrible scorer who could only score with an open corner 3 or a FT.
lessthanjake
Analyst
Posts: 3,352
And1: 3,011
Joined: Apr 13, 2013

Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #2 (Deadline 7/6 11:59pm) 

Post#167 » by lessthanjake » Thu Jul 6, 2023 10:40 pm

This was noted by someone else in the prior thread, but I just want to note the following again for people:

In Michael Jordan’s entire career, he had the highest game score of anyone on either team in 35 out of his 37 playoff series. The only exceptions were by *tiny* amounts, and one of them was in a three-game series (1996 first round) that the Bulls were so dominant in that Jordan sat a bunch at the ends of games (he had the highest game score per minute in the series by a decent margin but just played a bunch fewer minutes than Pippen), and the other was the 1996 Finals that he got Finals MVP in (Shawn Kemp had a barely higher Game Score in the series). And yes, Game Score is a fairly crude measure (basically just PER for a single game) and doesn’t account much for defense (which Jordan was great at anyways), but still.

The bottom line is that Michael Jordan won 6 titles while spending his entire career basically always being the most productive player on either team in every playoff series he played.

I love Kareem and he is my clear #3, but he simply doesn’t have the record of a player who won a bunch while always being the most productive player on either team. Neither does Tim Duncan—whose name has been coming up. It’s just an unparalleled record. There was no bad series; he was never outshone by anyone on his own team or the other team. And he won an extraordinary amount. The individual dominance of the league is incredible. So this seems like a fairly simple answer to me (with the caveat that I can see the argument for voting for Russell just based on sheer titles won).
OhayoKD wrote:Lebron contributes more to all the phases of play than Messi does. And he is of course a defensive anchor unlike messi.
PigsOnTheWing
Freshman
Posts: 68
And1: 46
Joined: Jan 23, 2018
     

Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #2 (Deadline 7/6 11:59pm) 

Post#168 » by PigsOnTheWing » Thu Jul 6, 2023 10:45 pm

Hi all! Big time lurker here, I've been following and enjoying all the discussion so far in this project. First of all, I wanted to thank you for the invaluable insight you provide on this topic. The amount of knowledge some of you have is really astonishing and humbling.

Now let's get to the point. I've read the arguments provided by the Kareem voters and they have mostly been thoughtful and interesting, so kudos for that. I am lower on him than most here but I feel I've learnt some new stuff about him that might make me reconsider his placement on the all time list (I would probably place him 5th right now).

However, I've also noticed how most of the discussion around Kareem was focused on the 70s, comprehensibly so since most of his prime was in that decade. What I wonder though, is how to rate the 80s part of his career. So I have a question for the Kareem people here (and anybody else who is willing to answer): if the Lakers didn't draft Magic in 1979 but instead a lesser PG (let's say a World B Free type of guy or even a Dennis Johnson, if you are more into a defensive PG), how would have Kareem's career progressed? (Assume all else stays the same, so the Lakers still get Worthy, Green, Cooper, ...).

I know it seems like a pretty dull question, after all the same principle can be applied to all the greats discussed so far: what if Jordan never got Pippen, what if the Spurs didn't make the steal of the century with Manu, what if Kobe actually went to Charlotte instead of the Lakers, and so on. What is different though, is that Kareem was actually struggling to win up to that point in his career. He had already spent 10 years in the league, winning 1 ring and coming close twice more (if we are being generous). We can endlessly discuss how good his supporting casts were, but I don't want to dig deep into that hole as many of you have already touched on that.

Now, you can clearly and rightfully point out that Jordan never even won a ring before Pippen, but he was still at the beginning of his prime while Kareem was already well into his when Magic got drafted.

(I also want to specify that I am far from a ring counter and I am actually more interested in the analytical approach to basketball, but I feel that at this point in the discussion my best contribute would be this form of thought-provoking question).

So, let's get back to the alternate reality I previously introduced. Let's say the Kareem-DJ Lakers fare pretty well in the (fairly mediocre) 80s Western Conference and go on to win a couple of rings, while getting close once more. You can use whatever number you feel is right, I think 2 is generous but still plausible, after all Kareem was still in contention for the best player in the league in the early 80s. Let's also imagine Kareem retiring a little earlier due to lack of potential in the team.

What we've got now is a player that retires with 3 rings, maybe with the all-time scoring record (though playing with Magic helped quite a bit on this) and whose career is still better that 99.99% of all the players who have ever stepped onto an NBA court. Is this career still better than Russell's, Jordan's, Duncan's or even Shaq's? It's debatable of course, but all this mental experiment was really just to introduce the main point of my reasoning, for which I find putting Kareem at 2# wrong.

The point is that part of what people find in Kareem's career that makes him so great is the sustained greatness and longevity. I think multiple Kareem voters have stated that part of the reason they voted for him is indeed (and obviously) the longevity.

What I'm getting at here is that that longevity was clearly aided by unbelievably lucky factors that might never happen in a potential re-run of his career. I know many of you don't like thinking in these terms and prefer to focus on what's actually happened, but I feel like having the chance to play with the literal GOAT PG in the later stages of your career is a sort of "luck" that must be at least considered as a factor. Kareem's career is like if Duncan won in 1999 and then no more until the Spurs magically gift him Curry in 2009 and they proceed to win other 5 rings. Massive over-simplification here, but I hope you get the point.

Ultimately, Kareem is probably the reason why I'm lower on longevity that most here and I prefer to use a sort of curve when ranking players historically, weighting prime seasons more heavily than later stages (so not a pure CORP methodology). I just find longevity to be way too tied to external factors a player has no control over, like teammates, organization, coaches and so on. For all we know, Kareem might have decided to retire much earlier had the best PG ever not been drafted by his franchise in the middle of his prime.


I want to conclude by also saying that the most interesting case for Kareem at #2 to me revolves around "proving" that his early 70s peak is in the top 3 ever, or possibly even the GOAT peak as someone has argued. It is actually pretty easy to argue that he has the best first-5-year-in-the-league run ever, maybe even by far.

Right now, I feel like he is either 4th or 5th for me (I'd still have to decide between him and Duncan) but still quite a long way from LeBron, Jordan and Russell (in this order).
OhayoKD
Head Coach
Posts: 6,042
And1: 3,933
Joined: Jun 22, 2022

Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #2 (Deadline 7/6 11:59pm) 

Post#169 » by OhayoKD » Thu Jul 6, 2023 10:49 pm

lessthanjake wrote:This was noted by someone else in the prior thread, but I just want to note the following again for people:

In Michael Jordan’s entire career, he had the highest game score of anyone on either team in 35 out of his 37 playoff series. The only exceptions were by *tiny* amounts, and one of them was in a three-game series (1996 first round) that the Bulls were so dominant in that Jordan sat a bunch at the ends of games (he had the highest game score per minute in the series by a decent margin but just played a bunch fewer minutes than Pippen), and the other was the 1996 Finals that he got Finals MVP in (Shawn Kemp had a barely higher Game Score in the series).

The bottom line is that Michael Jordan won 6 titles while spending his entire career basically always being the most productive player on either team in every playoff series he played.

*the most productive by a measure which only looks at the end of the possession and heavily skews towards offense.

Don't think anyone here views Kareem as a better offensive player so...not sure what you think this proves. Game-score is non-pace-adjusted PER. Game-score would probably paint Jordan as a not-top-10 candidate if we used whatever prior was used in JE's calculation.
. And he won an extraordinary amount. It seems like a fairly simple answer to me (with the caveat that I can see the argument for voting for Russell just based on sheer titles won).

Russell's record is actually better if you treat his first finals loss the way we treat 1994(27-1 vs 27-2 or 27-2 vs 27-3). And of course that is a career sample where russell had to play way more regular-season games and mantains his and the team's excellence for way longer while we're cherrypicking a favorable 8-year stretch for Mike(where he literally took a break).

I would say Russell is the "simple" answer. Many extra-steps are needed to justify Mike.
One_and_Done
General Manager
Posts: 9,370
And1: 5,639
Joined: Jun 03, 2023

Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #2 (Deadline 7/6 11:59pm) 

Post#170 » by One_and_Done » Thu Jul 6, 2023 10:59 pm

Jordan scores alot. That is not the same as being the most productive, or the most impactful. Worse still, Jordan's scoring comes in an era that was weak compared to today's game, and in a manner that would not translate as well today. His meh 3 point shooting in particular would hold him back.

Meanwhile Duncan would be even better in Jordan's era, and has a skillset you can build your whole team around with his defensive anchoring. I kind of wish Jordan had played one more year in Chicago, because they'd have been ker-ushed by the Spurs, and we wouldn't have this same silly narrative about Jordan.
Warspite wrote:Billups was a horrible scorer who could only score with an open corner 3 or a FT.
Doctor MJ
Senior Mod
Senior Mod
Posts: 53,535
And1: 22,531
Joined: Mar 10, 2005
Location: Cali
     

Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #2 (Deadline 7/6 11:59pm) 

Post#171 » by Doctor MJ » Thu Jul 6, 2023 11:02 pm

Vote 1: Bill Russell

Image

Taking a cue from penbeast, I'll just re-post my prior 10+ page post again but in spoiler.

Spoiler:
The Great Rivals
Alright, Imma take a bit of a journey here, and I'll give the trigger warning that Wilt Chamberlain will loom large here, and will be criticized. I don't do this because I hate Wilt, but because Wilt was always seen as the GOAT basketball talent, and the standard by which others were judged. Even Russell himself came to be re-defined as a contrast to Wilt in a way that was very different from how he was perceived originally - which I might say could have been called a Goliath-type.

So, I think that probably the most important specific comparison to understand when doing historical basketball GOATs is Russell vs Wilt. We get all sorts of stories past down about this comparison, and all savvy young skeptics find the following point resonant:

It's a team game, so if one star seems to be doing a lot more than the other but his team is losing, maybe it's because it's a TEAM GAME! It doesn't help when you hear arguments that start throwing around words like 'loser' to describe a guy whose teams did a lot more winning than losing. There's no doubt that winning-bias type arguments have been used for forever to argue for Russell over Wilt. Sufficed to say then, when I came to RealGM as a more-informed-than-most basketball fan, I ranked Wilt ahead of Russell.

As I dove deeper into the past however, a few things really shaped my perspective and swung me to the other side:

1. The fact that all through this time period it seems that defensive impact was possible to a considerably greater extent than offensive impact. This is something that by itself might be more of an argument for Russell over Oscar & West than Wilt. Simply put, in a world where offensive impact is more possible than defensive, which is where I think we tend to start by default, there are really good reasons to think that not just Wilt but other players were more deserving of MVPs than Russell.

When you realize that defense truly was king back then, then at least in-era, you lose a lot of that reason to be skeptical about Russell. When you watch a pitcher in baseball or a goalie in hockey seemingly shutdown the opposing offense, you have no qualms about calling that player the MVP of that game even if that guy couldn't be expected to hit homers or skate with grace. And to extent, the data told me that basketball in that era was somewhat analogous.

This alone didn't put Russell ahead of Wilt though, because Wilt was also capable of massive defensive impact, and Wilt was about as good of an offensive player as they come, right? I mean, even if we grant Russell the edge on defense, can it really make up for Wilt scoring 20-30 more points than Russell?

2. The incredible success of the '66-67 76ers, where Wilt was less of a scorer, and yet the team took a massive leap forward on offense.

This is where going through year-by-year and thinking about why the people involved made the decisions they made ended up having a profound impact on me. If Wilt is the greatest scorer of the age, then why would any coach come in and tell Wilt to shoot MUCH less? Well and good to say to say that changing the approach allowed for Wilt to have facilitator's impact on his teammate, but that implies that it was a choice between Shooter Wilt and Passer Wilt, and Passer Wilt was just better (at least for the context in question). From there you actually got people saying Wilt was the GOAT scorer and even better as a passer, which just doesn't make a lot of sense.

At the heart of the issue is that in the end shooting and passing are decisions that a player makes in the moment, and the expectation has always been that a player will need to do both, and thus is on the hook for deciding which move is best each and every moment. And so if a player gets incrementally better players around him, he should be a smidge less likely to shoot and more likely to pass.

So what does it say when a coach comes in and afterward a player becomes MUCH less likely to shoot and MUCH more likely to pass? That it's not really about the change in teammates, but the change to a kind of default setting. A "default setting" that really should be as close to undetectable as possible if you're reacting to what the defense gives you.

And if you're that new coach and you have any sort of common sense at all, you don't do this to any star just for the heck of it, let alone the most celebrated scorer in the history of the sport. You would only do it if you saw a problem and were so confident in what you say that you were willing to risk becoming a laughing stock for all time. And make no mistake, had Alex Hannum's new scheme backfired, that's what he would have been. When you question conventional wisdom and conventional wisdom proves correct, you generally look like a fool. When you do that in your career on something big enough to always be the first thing people remember about you, it's often a career killer.

So then I think the most important question for folks to answer about '66-67, is: What did Hannum see? So long as you take this part very seriously as essential to evaluation of Wilt, I respect others coming to different conclusions.

Way back in the day when I was doing the blogging thing I wrote a post that's probably (hopefully?) still worth reading:

Chamberlain Theory: The Real Price of Anarchy in Basketball

Which led to this general takeaway about basketball:

There is more to judging the effectiveness of a scorer, or a player in general, than simply his most obvious related statistics, and pursuit of those obvious statistics without proper awareness for the rest of the court can erase most if not all of a scorer’s positive impact, even when those obvious statistics are as great as any in all of history.

Interestingly as I read this now I think about something I wasn't aware of back then: Goodhart's Law

Any observed statistical regularity will tend to collapse once pressure is placed upon it for control purposes.

Often paraphrased (and simplified) as

When the measure becomes the target, it ceases to be a good measure.

Anyway, getting back to Russell vs Wilt, while previously I had been in a camp that might have said something like "I believe you that Russell had an edge on defense even above Wilt, but I can't fathom it was enough to make up for Wilt's 50 to 18 PPG scoring advantage", that became a lot harder to be skeptical of when I had to admit to myself that I believe that 24 PPG Wilt was actually more effective than 50 PPG Wilt.

Once I got past that statistical hang up, believing that Russell was often more valuable than Wilt seemed actually plausible.

3. I do think something that just needs to be acknowledged is that this notion of winning as many titles as possible to become the GOAT just wasn't the same thing back then, and it really wasn't the same for someone like Wilt who understandably saw basketball as just one source of public success. "Bigger than the game" makes it sound like it's about ego, but in the deeper past top athletes would jump from sport to sport to the movies to the recording studio wherever attention and fortune availed.

In some ways, that's always been true and is true now...but the difference is that someone like LeBron knows that the more he achieves through his years in the NBA, the bigger his reach after he retires. Literally this wasn't even true for Wilt. Winning a title was important...but from there to him it didn't follow that he should milk the success to achieve a dynasty. To him, it made financial sense to get himself to Hollywood. (Noteworthy that LeBron is in Hollywood now too...but he didn't come until after he was convinced he couldn't win more where he was.)

All this to say then that in some ways the entire basis of this project is "unfair" to Wilt in a way that the Peak project is not. He really wasn't trying to "max out" his NBA career the way guys do now, and the NBA-centered nature of this project then ends up effectively penalizing Wilt for this.

This pertains to why I tend to emphasize that there are myriad different ways to rank these guys, and a difference in spot lit criteria in a project such as this can easily lead to one thinking that someone else completely denies the greatness of a guy simply because a particular criteria ends up casting a smaller shadow than another angle would.

Russell on the Regular
Okay, let me continue on this point but widen out the gaze a bit:

While Wilt's tendency to stargaze is a completely understandable thing that just happens to penalize him under Career Achievement criteria, there is also the matter that it's really, really hard to keep beating all comers again and again and again the way Russell and the Celtics did. There's a certain joy in repetition that you need from this. It's not about winning the 11th title, it's about the process of proving yourself every day. It's about self-discipline, and in a team sport, working well with teammates on and off the court. If you don't have all those things, you're either going to run out of gas a lot sooner, or you're going to rip yourselves apart.

While I'm not going to say that Bill Russell is the only player with the mindset who could have put his team on his back to the top so regularly for so long, I think it speaks to a powerful capability where we all exist on a spectrum of greater and lesser ability to do it. I see many, many other stars who I think clearly don't have what it takes, and frankly I don't think I could have done it had I had Russell's body. I think it's important to recognize that this in and of itself is part of what makes Russell so special.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Russell the Defensive Archetype
Alright, so far I've alluded to Russell's defensive greatness but I haven't really drilled down. I'm going to point to another blog post I wrote, this at the end of that experiment:

Searching for Bill Russell ~ Starring Anthony Davis (2012)

The context here was my excitement over Anthony Davis as a prospect, which makes it interesting to look back on in its own right, but I bring it up here for the same reason why I was focused on finding a new Russell at the time: I see Russell as essentially the ideal build for a defensive player.

As stunningly agile as he was for his size, Chamberlain still could not compare with Russell in this regard. He had various clear advantages to Russell (strength, and likely fine motor skills come to mind), but the agility gap meant that there were simply things Russell could do than Chamberlain couldn’t. From Bill Russell: A Biography:

Bill understood that Wilt’s game was more vertical, that is, from the floor to the basket. Wilt’s game was one of strength and power…Bill’s game was built on finesse and speed, what he called a horizontal game, as he moved back and forth across the court blocking shots, running the floor, and playing team defense.

Russell’s quickness, along with instincts and superb leaping ability, meant that Russell could cast a larger shadow on the defensive side of the court. He could run out to challenge perimeter shooting, and recover quickly enough that he wouldn’t let his team get burned. That ability to have more global impact, and his sense to use it wisely, made him a more valuable defensive player than Chamberlain could ever be.


That you'd want length has always been a thing that's clear in basketball, but it's not necessarily obvious that a more lithe frame is better than a thicker one. Strength has its advantages too after all, and if basketball were a merely one-on-one sport where one guy just backed the other guy down, thicker would be better.

But it's a team game on an open field. It's a game of horizontal space, as is alluded to in the quote, and that's where Russell's unique combination of strengths gave him immense benefit.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Russell the Revolutionary
Now, this is a project that isn't about things like influence, and so a player being a spearhead doesn't necessarily help his case. Nonetheless, I think it's important to understand how Russell became what he became.

Russell was not a star in high school. Not because of an ultra-late growth spurt. Not because of racism. Why? A few things:

First, he played at California-state-champion type high school (McClymonds). There was extreme talent on the team, and as a result Russell didn't come of age with everything built toward making use of him. He came of age fitting in with other talents.

But I don't mean to imply that Russell was the secret MVP of those high school team with his teammates getting all the scoring glory. There's absolutely nothing to indicate that he was THAT good at the time, and when Russell describes his journey, he makes clear that the place where he really found his way in basketball was not in high school, but on a traveling all-star team he happened to join after high school.

Why do I say "happened"? As he describes it, the traveling all-star team was launched in the middle of the school year, but because Russell was a "splitter" who graduated on an earlier track, and he was the only senior on the team for whom this is true, when the all-star team came looking to add a McClymonds player to their roster, Russell was the only choice available.

And so it happened that Russell ended up spending months after his high school career riding on a bus from town to town playing basketball without any active coaching, and something funny occurred:

From "Second Wind" by Bill Russell
Within a week after the All-Star tour began, something happened that opened my eyes and chilled my spine…Every time one of them would make one of the moves I liked, I’d close my eyes just afterward and try to see the play in my mind. In other words, I’d try to create an instant replay on the inside of my eyelids.

“On this particular night I was working on replays of many plays, including McKelvey’s way of taking an offensive rebound and moving quickly to the hoop. It’s a fairly simple play for any big man in basketball, but I didn’t execute it well and McKelvey did. Since I had an accurate version of his technique in my head, I started playing with the image right there on the bench, running back the picture several times and each time inserting a part of me for McKelvey. Finally I saw myself making the whole move, and I ran this over and over, too. When I went into the game, I grabbed an offensive rebound and put it in the basket just the way McKelvey did. It seemed natural, almost as if I were just stepping into a film and following the signs.”

“For the rest of the trip I was nearly possessed by basketball. I was having so much fun that I was sorry to see each day end, and I wanted the nights to race by so that the next day could start. The long rides on the bus never bothered me. I talked basketball incessantly, and when I wasn’t talking I was sitting there with my eyes closed, watching plays in my head. I was in my own private basketball laboratory, making blueprints for myself.


Russell began this process of watching basketball in his head as an active participant, and soon began focusing less on trying to do what he saw other guys do, and instead how to defend against those guys. And then he started revolutionizing basketball right there with his eyes closed - not that he knew that then - what he knew is that he came back from the tour a much, much better basketball player.

Now, before we buy in entirely to the idea that Russell was a scrub in high school, I mean, the man did get a scholarship offer to play for the University of San Francisco (USF). Not a powerhouse program, but that doesn't mean they just hand out scholarships to anybody. Russell says that the USF scout had happened to see him play a particularly good game in high school, I'll let you decide how much of this is false modesty.

The cool thing though at USF is that since freshman couldn't play on the Varsity team, he basically got another year developing before having to fit in with stars under a coach. And in that year, he met KC Jones, and the two of them basically went Einstein on the game:

“We decided that basketball is basically a game of geometry –of lines, points and distances–and that the horizontal distances are more important than the vertical ones.”

“KC and I spent hours exploring the geometry of basketball, often losing track of the time. Neither of us needed a blackboard to see the play the other was describing…It was as if I was back on the Greyhound, assembling pictures of moves in my mind, except that KC liked to talk about what combinations of players could do. I had been daydreaming about solo moves, but he liked to work out strategies. KC has an original basketball mind, and he taught me how to scheme to make things happen on the court, particularly on defense…He was always figuring out ways to make the opponent take the shot he wanted him to take when he wanted him to take it, from the place he wanted the man to shoot.”

“Gradually, KC and I created a little basketball world of our own. Other players were lost in our conversations because we used so much shorthand that no one could follow what we were saying. Most of the players weren’t interested in strategy anyway.”


The pair would soon take the college basketball world by storm, and take USF to the big time and back-to-back NCAA championships.

I'd note here in Russell you have an example of someone with an incredibly active basketball imagination once it got turned on - which of course didn't happen until he had time AWAY from coaches - but it's not that I'm saying that his talent on this front was one-of-a-kind and that that was his truly greatest strength. Russell was unusual in such talent surely, but really it was him getting into certain types strategic habits with the reinforcement of a similar mind that caused something of an exponential curve. And of course, the application of that curve was on Russell's body, which was a far greater body talent than what Jones possessed.

I also think Russell elaborate on the horizontal game tellingly in this quote but unfortunately I'm not sure which book it was from:

Beginning in my freshman year, I developed the concept of horizontal and vertical games. I made a distinction between the two that others had not done. The horizontal game meant how I played side to side. The vertical game was how I played up and down. I knew that if I could integrate the two games, our team could win. I would always be in a position to determine where the ball was and where it was going.

What I saw was how much more there was to the game than that. I would lie awake at night and play with numbers. How much time was there in an NBA game? Forty-eight minutes. How many shots were taken in a game? Maybe a hundred and sixty, eighty or so on each side. I calculated the number of seconds each shot took—a second, a second and a half—and then I multiplied by a hundred. Two hundred forty seconds at most—or four minutes. Then add a single extra second for a foul shot missed and then the ball put in play; add another minute at the most. So, five minutes out of forty-eight are actually taken up in the vertical game.


What I'm hoping you're getting a picture of is a young man who started thinking for himself about how he could best help his team win at basketball.

From an innovator's perspective, this is what would put Russell at the very top of my list of all basketball players in history. This archetype of the horizontal & vertical force who intimidated shots like nobody's business but who relied on non-vertical agility to do a whole bunch of other things that were valuable, Russell basically invented it. Not saying no one before had ever done anything like it, but it wasn't what was being taught by coaches.

In Russell's words:

On defense it was considered even worse to leave your feet…The idea was for the defensive player to keep himself between his man and the basket at all times. Prevent lay-ups, keep control, stay on your feet. By jumping you were simply telegraphing to your opponent that you could be faked into the air. Defenses had not begun to adjust to the jump shot.


Russell would be the one, then, who would make that adjustment and have the world take notice, and only after he did that did the coaches begin coaching players to do Russell-type things.

Note: As I say this you might be thinking that this can't be true because of the arrival of the Big Man in the '40s with George Mikan and Bob Kurland to college basketball. Some things to note:

Quickly after the arrival of those players, goaltending was introduced as a rule. Had it not, then certainly at-the-rim shot-blocking would have quickly become THE way to play defense.

So what Russell's talking about isn't the ability to get your hand considerably higher than the rim, but about aggressively blocking shots on the way up, and not just for your man, but from anybody on the other team, which wasn't seen as a realistic option until Russell.

Caveat: A distinction must be made between Kurland & Mikan. Kurland was the true mega-shot-blocker, not Mikan. As such, it's possible that Russell would have grown up in a different landscape had Kurland chosen to play pro ball.

With that said, Kurland was the the big man star of the US Olympic teams in their '48 & '52 gold medals, and Russell was the star of the '56 team. From what I've read, even for players used to getting beat by Kurland in the Olympics, Russell felt shockingly different because of his quickness.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Russell and the Future
Okay, I've probably long since lost folks with my meanders, so let me try to tie this back together:

With what I've written so far I think it's clear why Russell would be my pre-Kareem GOAT, but what about Kareem and all the players who came after?

Well, Russell vs Kareem is a great comparison and I completely understand voting for Kareem. Kareem is literally a guy who I'd have given the DPOY to in some years, and I think his scoring impact was far more reliable than Wilt's. Shouldn't that be enough to give him the nod?

Well, when I think about player achievement, I have a tendency to focus on the team success of the player with more team success and ask myself if I think the other player can do better. And the thing is, I don't think Kareem's Celtics could match Russell's Celtics. I think in Kareem you've got someone more like a longer Kurland, whereas in Russell you've got a combination of length & quickness that was basically unheard of at least until Olajuwon.

I could see arguments for coming up with the ideal team with a comparable amount of supporting talent for Kareem being better than those Celtics, but there's really nothing I can imagine that I'd bet on winning 11 titles in 13 years.

Now, you might say, "Well but no one can do that, so Russell is going to be your GOAT forever", but this is where we get into the degree of difficulty of the league. It's not going to take the same title winning percentage to top Russell. What will it take? We'll see. It's not about hitting a particular pre-set threshold. It's a case-by-case comparison. I take both Jordan & LeBron as serious candidates to surpass Russell, and in 2020 I put both ahead of Russell.

But, that was coming from a perspective that was essentially 2020-oriented. Do I think Russell would be the best player in today's game? No. I think that once the shooters in the game got good enough, it decreased how much you could dominate the game as a defender, and that gives offensive stars the edge.

Thing is, it didn't just give Jordan & James the edge. It gives entire types of players the edge, so on what basis did I have Russell at #3? As I reflected, it just became undeniably inconsistent, and if I ran it back again, I'm not sure where Russell would have landed.

I'll admit to this feeling wrong to me, and that feeling influenced me to ruminate, but I do want to be clear that I don't like the idea of changing my criteria so that I can keep a particular player super-high. I suppose though, while I'm fine with Russell not being at the top of my list, the idea of him moving way far down just makes me feel like I'm doing it wrong.

Not that I'm the first person to think this - many, many people have thought I've done things wrong along these lines and criticized my approach as disrespecting the past. In the end though it's not so much about respecting the past being worthy of a particular spot on the list, but of how I want to try to rank guys from the past.

Do I want to try to gauge the Russells of the world primarily based on how they'd fair against a technique that exists because of a rule change that came about after (and because of) them?, or, Do I want to focus on why what they did in their day that was so worth remembering?

Viewed like this, it's the latter.

Back to Jordan & LeBron in comparison to Russell, it's not just that they have less rings, but that they have warts in their careers. Jordan was something of an individualist in a team game whose strengths allowed him to take game by the horns in his prime, but whose attitude had a destructiveness to it that showed itself more late in his career (Washington), but it's not like it wasn't there before. It could have tripped him up more severely in prime, and I feel like it was bound to cause problems as he aged.

LeBron on the other hand has a combination of missed opportunities and tendency to jump ship (or push those around him overboard) that I think has kept his career from reaching the heights of what I really still see as possible in today's game. Maybe I'll look back on this vote in the years to come and think this was naive - maybe no one will top him for decades to come and I'll end up again re-evaluating LeBron and putting back on top, but as things stand, I'm more impressed with what Russell did....


Vote 2: Michael Jordan

So, Jordan & Kareem are the guys I really considered here, and let me say first that I think people have made some great arguments for Kareem not just in this project, but in recent years. I wondered if he'd end up moving past Jordan, and he looks like he's got a good shot.

I'm still going to side with MJ though, and I think to illustrate why I gave LeBron the nod over Jordan, but not Kareem, let's consider this:

Oldest POY age:

LeBron 35
Jordan 34
Kareem 32

While Kareem deserves an edge due to longevity over Jordan, this isn't a situation like it was with LeBron where he literally had the case of being the best in the world at an age beyond Jordan's end-of-prime retirement. At a time when Jordan was still the consensus best player in the world at the end of another 3-peat, Kareem had already been eclipsed.

Now, you can certainly look at Magic's presence being an extenuating factor that shouldn't be held against Kareem, but I don't think we should forget that Jordan was able to maintain his MVP-level prime to an older age than Kareem did.

Now mind you, this alone is not why I picked LeBron over Jordan. Another distinction between LeBron & Kareem for me is what you might call an "inevitability" factor. With LeBron it just seemed he was always able to find a lever by which he could at least carrying his team to somewhere significant, whereas with Kareem there were times where it just felt like teams could mitigate for him. By "mitigate", to be clear, I don't mean they could stop him, but that they could win while letting him get his, because he wasn't the same type of playmaking force as LeBron.

Of course, neither was Jordan, but that gets back to the thing where I'd still give Jordan the nod prime-to-prime over LeBron. The relentlessness of Jordan - his motor, his shooting improvement, the intensity with which he drove his teams - I think it's important to recognize how unusual he was regardless of era.

Nomination: Magic Johnson

Image

Speaking of Magic, he'll be my first Nominee. To tell a bit of my journey here:

When I started on RealGM, I had Magic higher than the Olajuwons/Shaqs/Duncan/KGs. Then I started focusing on two things:

1. Longevity - where Magic's HIV diagnosis forever damaged what he could achieve.

2. Impact - Shaq, Duncan & KG had such high impact, and impact on both sides of the ball, that it was hard to imagine that Magic was enough better to make up for longevity issues.

Also, related to impact, was me consider how lucky Magic was to arrive on the Lakers. Incredible team success to be sure, but to be expect to a degree with that talent around you, right?

On the longevity front, I've walked it back a bit. While I'm still fine using extended longevity as a tiebreaker, I'm generally more focused in what a player can do in 5-10 years, because for the most part that's when a franchise can expect to build a contender with you. And of course, Magic had that. In Magic's 12 years before the HIV retirement, the Lakers had an amount of success that's just plain staggering for any career.

12 years. 12 years 50+ wins. 32 playoff series wins.

For the record, if my count is correct, LeBron himself only has 12 50+ win years (though he does have 41 playoff series victories).

So yeah, Magic packed in so much success into his career, that it's hard to take seriously longevity as that big of concern to me. Tiebreaker at most really.

Of course he had help and I don't want to just elevate the guy because he had more help...but being the star and leader of the team having the most dominant decade run since Russell is not something to be brushed aside lightly. I think we need to be very careful about assuming other guys have a comparable realistic ceiling.

Going back to LeBron, I'll say that watching him through his career has also helped me gain more confidence in Magic's ability to find ways to control the game around him no matter the context or how his body changed. I think Magic had an extremely strong intuition about how to win the arm-wrestling contest of basketball, finding little affordances to gain leverage over time, and I think it's offensive geniuses who in general have this capacity in the modern (and even somewhat-near-modern game).
Getting ready for the RealGM 100 on the PC Board

Come join the WNBA Board if you're a fan!
One_and_Done
General Manager
Posts: 9,370
And1: 5,639
Joined: Jun 03, 2023

Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #2 (Deadline 7/6 11:59pm) 

Post#172 » by One_and_Done » Thu Jul 6, 2023 11:11 pm

12 years with 50 plus wins is impressive.

Duncan did that for all 19 years of his career. Using win% to adjust for 2 lockouts his team won over 58 games a year on average. For.19.years. :o
Warspite wrote:Billups was a horrible scorer who could only score with an open corner 3 or a FT.
lessthanjake
Analyst
Posts: 3,352
And1: 3,011
Joined: Apr 13, 2013

Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #2 (Deadline 7/6 11:59pm) 

Post#173 » by lessthanjake » Thu Jul 6, 2023 11:14 pm

One_and_Done wrote:Jordan scores alot. That is not the same as being the most productive, or the most impactful. Worse still, Jordan's scoring comes in an era that was weak compared to today's game, and in a manner that would not translate as well today. His meh 3 point shooting in particular would hold him back.

Meanwhile Duncan would be even better in Jordan's era, and has a skillset you can build your whole team around with his defensive anchoring. I kind of wish Jordan had played one more year in Chicago, because they'd have been ker-ushed by the Spurs, and we wouldn't have this same silly narrative about Jordan.


Are we really going into the realm of whose game would “translate” better across eras, though? Players developed their games to satisfy the needs of their era, so these players all would legitimately be different players if they played in different eras. And, even beyond that, an assessment of who would be better in a different era is bound to just result in people making inherently speculative claims to back up their preconceived notions.

OhayoKD wrote:
lessthanjake wrote:This was noted by someone else in the prior thread, but I just want to note the following again for people:

In Michael Jordan’s entire career, he had the highest game score of anyone on either team in 35 out of his 37 playoff series. The only exceptions were by *tiny* amounts, and one of them was in a three-game series (1996 first round) that the Bulls were so dominant in that Jordan sat a bunch at the ends of games (he had the highest game score per minute in the series by a decent margin but just played a bunch fewer minutes than Pippen), and the other was the 1996 Finals that he got Finals MVP in (Shawn Kemp had a barely higher Game Score in the series).

The bottom line is that Michael Jordan won 6 titles while spending his entire career basically always being the most productive player on either team in every playoff series he played.

*the most productive by a measure which only looks at the end of the possession and heavily skews towards offense.

Don't think anyone here views Kareem as a better offensive player so...not sure what you think this proves. Game-score is non-pace-adjusted PER. Game-score would probably paint Jordan as a not-top-10 candidate if we used whatever prior was used in JE's calculation.
. And he won an extraordinary amount. It seems like a fairly simple answer to me (with the caveat that I can see the argument for voting for Russell just based on sheer titles won).

Russell's record is actually better if you treat his first finals loss the way we treat 1994(27-1 vs 27-2 or 27-2 vs 27-3). And of course that is a career sample where russell had to play way more regular-season games and mantains his and the team's excellence for way longer while we're cherrypicking a favorable 8-year stretch for Mike(where he literally took a break).

I would say Russell is the "simple" answer. Many extra-steps are needed to justify Mike.


I think there’s a fairly simple case for Russell too—which is why I flagged that. But MJ’s case of just always being the most productive player on the court in like every playoff series of his career on his way to 6 titles really is very simple and very strong and not something others such as Kareem can actually come even close to meeting.

One can try to counter that case by saying that Game Score doesn’t account for defense very much. And that’s true. But MJ was a great defender anyways. And when talking about great big-men defenders (i.e. guys who we’d expect to have more defensive impact than even a great defender like MJ, given that MJ was a guard), there’s a really big productivity gap to make up here. For instance, we don’t have game score data for most of Kareem’s career, so I’ll use Duncan here. In the first 13 years of Duncan’s career (mapping onto the number of years Jordan played in Chicago), Duncan only had the highest game score of anyone in the series in 16 out of 33 playoff series. That’s a huge difference compared to MJ! Does he make up for some of that with defensive impact that Jordan couldn’t have matched? Sure. But it’s a mighty big difference to make up (not to mention of course the sheer fact that MJ won more while being this dominant statistically in each playoff series).

* Sidenote: Game Score not adjusting for pace is irrelevant when comparing to other players in the same playoff series, since everyone played in the same games and therefore all played in games with equal pace.
OhayoKD wrote:Lebron contributes more to all the phases of play than Messi does. And he is of course a defensive anchor unlike messi.
One_and_Done
General Manager
Posts: 9,370
And1: 5,639
Joined: Jun 03, 2023

Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #2 (Deadline 7/6 11:59pm) 

Post#174 » by One_and_Done » Thu Jul 6, 2023 11:37 pm

I am very much about factoring in era. There was a huge discussion about criteria before the project started.
Warspite wrote:Billups was a horrible scorer who could only score with an open corner 3 or a FT.
User avatar
eminence
RealGM
Posts: 17,056
And1: 11,868
Joined: Mar 07, 2015

Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #2 (Deadline 7/6 11:59pm) 

Post#175 » by eminence » Thu Jul 6, 2023 11:38 pm

I don't think Game Score itself is a particularly good metric.

I do think MJ outplayed his competition in the playoffs more clearly and more often than the other candidates here. The strongest counter probably being a lack of very top tier players in the East through his prime. But not really relevant for Kareem who faced even weaker top level competition.
I bought a boat.
trex_8063
Forum Mod
Forum Mod
Posts: 12,650
And1: 8,296
Joined: Feb 24, 2013
     

Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #2 (Deadline 7/6 11:59pm) 

Post#176 » by trex_8063 » Thu Jul 6, 2023 11:41 pm

rk2023 wrote:
rk2023 wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:
My intention:

If majority -> winner.
If plurality, apply 2nd vote for run off. At that point, plurality -> winner.


For OaD, any idea how the votes are distributed? I haven't been checking in for updates as much as #1 through this iteration quite yet.


To edit, I scrolled and counted 19 votes. Wilt and Duncan (receiving a singular primary vote) seem to be later thoughts for now.

Kareem: 8 first place , 8 second
Jordan: 5 first place , 6 second
Russell: 4 first place , 5 second

Seems to be a quite competitive race with ~10 hours to go! Intrigued for the rest of 'ballots' incoming.


I had a different count. I forget exactly where I was at in the thread when I wrote it down, but I have either 6 or 7 first place votes for Jordan , even at the time of this post
"The fact that a proposition is absurd has never hindered those who wish to believe it." -Edward Rutherfurd
"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." - Voltaire
f4p
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,849
And1: 1,850
Joined: Sep 19, 2021
 

Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #2 (Deadline 7/6 11:59pm) 

Post#177 » by f4p » Thu Jul 6, 2023 11:57 pm

OhayoKD wrote:
f4p wrote:the standard for jordan seems to be that if he has the most dominant 6 season stretch in nba history, it's still not enough. what even would be enough if the best stretch of results ever isn't enough?

Vote how you want, but this repeated misrepresentation is wierd.

No. Besides that Russell was clearly more dominant for 6(8! actually)-years(and also overpeformed your expected champions statby a bigger margin than Mike), the argument against Jordan is that the low number of "chances" was a direct result of Jordan not being as good over the large samples of the regular season.

That 74, 77 and 72 are all "negatives" relative to Jordan's 88 and 90 even though Kareem probably led better league-relative teams with less help is why no one should be taking this "srs overperformance/underperformance" approach without

A. establishing what they think a player's rs baseline is
B. demonstrating a basis for different greats all being worth the same in the rs.

If you can't establish Jordan had weaker support, your argument against Kareem is basically that he was too good and thus must be held to a higher standard than Jordan. Much as it would be if we penalized 2009(your #1 ranked season). The 74 Bucks, the 72 Lakers, the 71 Bucks, and the 77 Lakers all did better than the 90 Pistons, the 91 Bulls, and the 88 Bulls relative to the league


so let me ask, why do you think considering playoff risers and fallers can't be done? in your 25 year RAPM thread, in your first post you had a section for playoff risers and fallers. so you don't seem disinclined to acquiesce to the idea that they exist. i certainly didn't come up with the concept and am not the only one who discusses it on this board. why shouldn't they exist on a team basis? if you have 82 games to prove yourself as a vastly superior team to another and then lose to them, why should i say you were actually just worse all along. at the very least, if we're ascribing lift to these teams, then we would seem to need to lower that lift a lot when you end up losing as a 4.7 SRS favorite. it would be fair to say that whatever lift you are ascribing to kareem and jordan, it takes a substantial shift in the direction of jordan once the postseason is factored in.

after all, we can't really say kareem had more postseason success than jordan. jordan was able to win 6 titles as the best player in significantly fewer years. while kareem was only the undoubted best player twice (and his team even closed out the title without him in one of them), and then maybe a 50/50 guy for 2 more, so let's call it 3 times as the best player. with myriad losses as a heavy favorite. can we really discount the regular season that much? it's not as if jordan was a lazy regular season player who made it easy on himself to overperform. are we to believe that jordan has so little value, that kareem can underperform his own regular season by more than 13 wins (4.7 SRS) and still come out ahead of jordan. and we have jordan in the 6 title runs, essentially playing at the exact same win pace in the playoffs as the regular season, except against +4 or so competition.

for the 70's, kareem's regular season SRS said he should win 10.9 playoff series, or 68.3%. he won 9, or 56.3%. to change odds like that for a 7 game series, that's a shift of 1.5 SRS points underperformance.

for pre-1991, jordan regular season SRS said he should win 3.4 playoff series, or 31.1%. he won 5, or 45.5%. that's a shift of 1.8 SRS points overperformance.

so that's a shift of 3.3 SRS points in total between the two, or about 9 wins. based on the playoffs. for basically smack dab in the middle of his prime kareem compared to jordan. is the difference between them before the playoffs really more than 9 wins?

and it's hard to do kareem in the 80's because of the conflation with magic being the signal, but for jordan from 91-98, even including 95:

jordan's regular season SRS said he should win 20.3 playoff series, or 78.0%. he won 25, or 96.2%. that's a shift of 4.8 SRS points, or 13 wins. jordan is just massively outperforming what it seems like his team should have done.

and since we may never agree, why are you so low on converting chances into titles? the nba is maybe the most predictable league in the world. the winning team has the best player or 2nd best player, a lot. the best players tend to win even more than things like SRS suggest. i don't value these things just to help jordan, i value them because they seem some of the clearest signals from nba history. here is the SRS favorite record i posted in one of my earlier duncan posts (with curry updated for 3 losses now):

Jordan 25-0
Russell 24-1
Kobe 25-2
Isiah 11-1
Lebron 31-3
Wade 18-2
Wilt 16-2
Durant 16-2
West 16-2
Garnett 8-1
Magic 28-4
Curry 19-3
Kareem 33-7
Shaq 24-6

among the guys with the huge sample sizes, which usually means good team situations and lots of series as the heavy favorite, kareem is on the low end. and only 8-4 pre-magic. do these other guys not provide regular season lift? why are they so able to live up to their regular season performance, even after providing so much value. even curry, whose own numbers fall off quite a bit and has big impact signals in the regular season, wins over 90% of the time.

i feel like you are low on coming through when you are supposed to. especially over and over like jordan did. jordan was basically supposed to come through for 6 straight years. and did. every time. while being the best player in the series, every time. 1973 for kareem is a +4.7 SRS playoff series where he put up atrocious numbers (44.7 TS%?) and lost, in a year with fairly substantial title odds (29.4%). that makes 2011 lebron look great. it's far below any jordan performance.

and i'll go back to my question. you seem to focus a lot on jordan in his early days, constructing a case he wasn't really valuable. but i'll ask again, what else could he have done from 1991-98? 25 out of 26 series, 24 out of 24 in full seasons, a better win percentage in the regular season (even if we include '95) than the celtics in their 8-peat and basically tied with the warriors from 2015-19. a better playoff win percentage (even if we include '95) by a significant margin over the 8-peat celtics and by a small margin over the 2015-19 warriors (much larger if we don't include '95). it's not like there's a reasonable argument that his early bulls teams were title contenders or would have been with basically anyone from history. at best we might be able to get the 1990 bulls to a title with someone else. but then after 1990, we have gargantuan team and individual performances, with basically no off performances, for almost a decade, only interrupted by a retirement for fairly unique reasons. the only player seemingly capable of matching jordan's run is a player whose skillset was arguably uniquely valuable during his exact career timespan, in a league with 8-9 teams in it, with only 2 rounds required to win a title.
OhayoKD
Head Coach
Posts: 6,042
And1: 3,933
Joined: Jun 22, 2022

Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #2 (Deadline 7/6 11:59pm) 

Post#178 » by OhayoKD » Thu Jul 6, 2023 11:57 pm

lessthanjake wrote:
One_and_Done wrote:Jordan scores alot. That is not the same as being the most productive, or the most impactful. Worse still, Jordan's scoring comes in an era that was weak compared to today's game, and in a manner that would not translate as well today. His meh 3 point shooting in particular would hold him back.

Meanwhile Duncan would be even better in Jordan's era, and has a skillset you can build your whole team around with his defensive anchoring. I kind of wish Jordan had played one more year in Chicago, because they'd have been ker-ushed by the Spurs, and we wouldn't have this same silly narrative about Jordan.


Are we really going into the realm of whose game would “translate” better across eras, though? Players developed their games to satisfy the needs of their era, so these players all would legitimately be different players if they played in different eras. And, even beyond that, an assessment of who would be better in a different era is bound to just result in people making inherently speculative claims to back up their preconceived notions.

OhayoKD wrote:*the most productive by a measure which only looks at the end of the possession and heavily skews towards offense.

Don't think anyone here views Kareem as a better offensive player so...not sure what you think this proves. Game-score is non-pace-adjusted PER. Game-score would probably paint Jordan as a not-top-10 candidate if we used whatever prior was used in JE's calculation.

Russell's record is actually better if you treat his first finals loss the way we treat 1994(27-1 vs 27-2 or 27-2 vs 27-3). And of course that is a career sample where russell had to play way more regular-season games and mantains his and the team's excellence for way longer while we're cherrypicking a favorable 8-year stretch for Mike(where he literally took a break).

I would say Russell is the "simple" answer. Many extra-steps are needed to justify Mike.


I think there’s a fairly simple case for Russell too—which is why I flagged that. But MJ’s case of just always being the most productive player on the court in like every playoff series of his career on his way to 6 titles really is very simple and very strong and not something others such as Kareem can actually come even close to meeting.

No it's the opposite. You are subjectively defining what productive means. Bill Russell has 11 championships. That is objectively observable to everyone. That subjective definition is an entire layer of complexity onto itself and as we saw with JE, one can just as easily define "production" in a way where Jordan does not come anywhere close to the other candidates here.

It also just doesn't line-up with actual results, even offensively. Jordan was physically doing more before the triangle. The point of the triangle was to redistribute production, even if applying your filters makes it seem like the production didn't change. The entire purpose was essentially to allow mj to be a finisher and attack, with Scottie as the de-facto “pg”. When Jordan produced more the results were outright disappointing relative to the likes of what Nash, Oscar, and Lebron did pre- prime and in different systems(peaked at +4 for 30 full-strength games in 88, otherwise peaked at +2). Jordan was not producing better offense. His overall production was less, even if the stuff you're looking at(what happens at the end of the possession) stand out. Your filter is arbitrary and detached from actual results. Even with the system, his playoff offenses still trailed. He was not the most productive offensive player ever as how I define it. And I do not see what justification there is for me to accept yours.

Jordan's argument is not simpler simply because you wish to assume a prior assumption as some sort of fact.
For instance, we don’t have game score data for most of Kareem’s career, so I’ll use Duncan here. In the first 13 years of Duncan’s career (mapping onto the number of years Jordan played in Chicago), Duncan only had the highest game score of anyone in the series in 16 out of 33 playoff series.

Jordan was probably better over 13-years, but I have duncan better over 1-3(possibly 5?) and his longevity can make up the gap(by Ben's formula they would).

Fine enough on pace, but garbage in, garbage out. Your definition of "production" is arbitrary, and hence the case is not comparably simple to say "russell's team won the most championships!". There is an extra-step being taken where you assume what production is. As we have seen time and again, change the assumptions and suddenly "production" can skew against Micheal very quickly.
User avatar
eminence
RealGM
Posts: 17,056
And1: 11,868
Joined: Mar 07, 2015

Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #2 (Deadline 7/6 11:59pm) 

Post#179 » by eminence » Fri Jul 7, 2023 12:17 am

A note - JE's metric wasn't just what we might traditionally or non-traditionally think of as production. JE had to add his favorite variable as well, one MJ will never measure (heh) up to Robinson in.
I bought a boat.
OhayoKD
Head Coach
Posts: 6,042
And1: 3,933
Joined: Jun 22, 2022

Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #2 (Deadline 7/6 11:59pm) 

Post#180 » by OhayoKD » Fri Jul 7, 2023 1:07 am

f4p wrote:
OhayoKD wrote:Vote how you want, but this repeated misrepresentation is wierd.

No. Besides that Russell was clearly more dominant for 6(8! actually)-years(and also overpeformed your expected champions statby a bigger margin than Mike), the argument against Jordan is that the low number of "chances" was a direct result of Jordan not being as good over the large samples of the regular season.

That 74, 77 and 72 are all "negatives" relative to Jordan's 88 and 90 even though Kareem probably led better league-relative teams with less help is why no one should be taking this "srs overperformance/underperformance" approach without

A. establishing what they think a player's rs baseline is
B. demonstrating a basis for different greats all being worth the same in the rs.

If you can't establish Jordan had weaker support, your argument against Kareem is basically that he was too good and thus must be held to a higher standard than Jordan. Much as it would be if we penalized 2009(your #1 ranked season). The 74 Bucks, the 72 Lakers, the 71 Bucks, and the 77 Lakers all did better than the 90 Pistons, the 91 Bulls, and the 88 Bulls relative to the league


so let me ask, why do you think considering playoff risers and fallers can't be done? in your 25 year RAPM thread, in your first post you had a section for playoff risers and fallers. so you don't seem disinclined to acquiesce to the idea that they exist. i certainly didn't come up with the concept and am not the only one who discusses it on this board. why shouldn't they exist on a team basis? if you have 82 games to prove yourself as a vastly superior team to another and then lose to them, why should i say you were actually just worse all along. at the very least, if we're ascribing lift to these teams, then we would seem to need to lower that lift a lot when you end up losing as a 4.7 SRS favorite. it would be fair to say that whatever lift you are ascribing to kareem and jordan, it takes a substantial shift in the direction of jordan once the postseason is factored in.

And why are you assuming I don't? The problem here is kareem was not "consistently" losing as a +4.7 favorite. As I outlined in my first post on this thread, the Bucks got better in 71 and 72 using sans's psrs. All three of the 71, 72, and 74 Bucks were better than the 91 and 90 Bulls(compared to the latter 2) respectively. The 77 Lakers were on-par with the 88 Bulls after a better regular season. And I have Jordan having more help all those postseasons. Moreover you seem inclined to give Jordan all the credit for his "lift", but in 1990 do you know what increased from the regular season? The Bulls defensive rating. Do you know who purely by box-aggregations(which miss a bunch of things Jordan was helped with) like BPM saw the biggest rise? Pippen.

Do you know what the 94 Bulls did in the playoffs while their best players were at each other's throats?
They got better. Compare that to 72 where the Bucks, already playing at a higher-level in the regular season despite a diminished co-star(also better than the 90 bulls without said-costar), and then the Bucks scaled up despite said diminshed co-star seeing his ppg drop of by 6 points because of an injury, and performed better against a better opponent.

In 74 with even weaker help, the Bucks did just as well against a better opponent after being by far the best regular season team. As far as I'm concerned, Kareem was flat-out better, regular season and playoffs, and consequently achieved comparable or better playoff results against better opponents without a system equivalent to the triangle(refer back to blackmill's notes on suboptimal deployment), or a team so good they could **** off with all the chemistry and still conceivably win by themselves. Even if I gave jordan all the credit for the team-wide elevation(obviously undeserved), he still looks like a worse riser than Hakeem(who we're just nominating) and Lebron(who you dont have at #1 even though the Cavs playoff lineups which were better lebron and stars, lebron and no stars, and worse with stars and no lebron)

Because you have decided to take out "help" as a factor, what I see as Kareem being better from start to finish than peak Micheal in multiple seasons, you see as Kareem just being flatly worse.
after all, we can't really say kareem had more postseason success than jordan.

We can depending on framing, but again. Russell


can we really discount the regular season that much? it's not as if jordan was a lazy regular season player who made it easy on himself to overperform.

Lazy or not lazy, he is shooting guard who never outputted significant defensive impact(at least by "lift) as shooting guards do not do. He also was not a lebron/magic/nash type guy who could monopolize team-wide offense to excellent success, and while his biggest advantage was ball-handling, he only achieved impressive offenses as a secondary ball-handler.

In the year you see as his peak, he was mostly shooting over single coverage while a "unpolished" offensive player like say 2009 Bron was mantaining similar "end-of-possession" efficiency while doing more through the duration of possessions against significantly more defensive coverage.

So yeah, I do not think laziness is required here. He is not forcing game-winning play-calls or subsitutions on one-end. He is not a top-tier passer which means his looks are not as high quality(passer-rating) and he has no hope of even dreaming of the defensive influence from a guy like Lebron in his 30's never mind a proper **** big like Kareem. He was way worse than Kareem in his first 6 years of basketball. He took a break and was still fell off quicker. He also demonstrated he didn't understand his own limitations in washington and where Kareem just moved on from Magic trying to upsurp him as a rookie, Jordan blew-a-team up because he didn't always get his way.

Kareem should be better, and the results tell me he is better, so why do I care about what the "expected championship differential" is when he's leading better or comparable regular season and playoff teams with less help over and over and over again?

Kareem is a better player who at his best scaled up even when his teammates didn't. Jordan wasn't even the most impressive of his draft-class till coke screwed over Hakeem and Jordan found himself a squad somewhere between the durant and non-durant warriors.

for the 70's, kareem's regular season SRS said he should win 10.9 playoff series, or 68.3%. he won 9, or 56.3%. to change odds like that for a 7 game series, that's a shift of 1.5 SRS points underperformance.

for pre-1991, jordan regular season SRS said he should win 3.4 playoff series, or 31.1%. he won 5, or 45.5%. that's a shift of 1.8 SRS points overperformance.

so that's a shift of 3.3 SRS points in total between the two, or about 9 wins. based on the playoffs. for basically smack dab in the middle of his prime kareem compared to jordan. is the difference between them before the playoffs really more than 9 wins?

Doesn't seem unreasonable, especially since that included 84-87 MJ who probably wasn't as good at basketball as pre-nba Kareem. For the "peaks", 72 and 71 saw improvement per San's calc. Compare that to 90/91 and I think the playoffs significantly bolster Kareem's case. Also M.O.V here allows for us to compare losses. 1972 may not have ended in a win, but i'd say in terms of "lift" that playoff outcome is more impressive than anything from Jordan. Ditto with 1974 where the help was weaker than 1972.

and it's hard to do kareem in the 80's because of the conflation with magic being the signal, but for jordan from 91-98, even including 95:

jordan's regular season SRS said he should win 20.3 playoff series, or 78.0%. he won 25, or 96.2%. that's a shift of 4.8 SRS points, or 13 wins. jordan is just massively outperforming what it seems like his team should have done.

The Bulls are, yes, but again, they didnt even need Jordan to do that. And like I said, using "converting chances" instead of mov forces us to reduce the sample

and since we may never agree, why are you so low on converting chances into titles? the nba is maybe the most predictable league in the world. the winning team has the best player or 2nd best player, a lot. the best players tend to win even more than things like SRS suggest. i don't value these things just to help jordan, i value them because they seem some of the clearest signals from nba history. here is the SRS favorite record i posted in one of my earlier duncan posts (with curry updated for 3 losses now):

Because it reduces what can be used as evidence. Again, by this metric 1972 and 1974 and 1977 are all "negatives" when if we compare opponent and m.o.v(curve for proportionality) they are outright better or more impressive than what peak Jordan did. I would need to see what specifically you're comparing for the Lakers because beyond 80(another team that rose in the playoffs), Jordan should look better.

and i'll go back to my question. you seem to focus a lot on jordan in his early days, constructing a case he wasn't really valuable. but i'll ask again, what else could he have done from 1991-98?
[/quote]
Match the 71 Bucks? Outperform the Best Spurs sides more than once? Not get pushed by a worse variant of the 2012 Thunder b2b? Not get pushed by the Reggie's Pacers? Win with a loaded deck in 94? Replicate even late Lebron or late Kareem performance in 1995?. Jordan did not have the most dominant 6-year stretch. That was obviously bill. As 70's pointed out, even Magic has a case. What about Jordan here is special?

You assume the Bulls did not have a chance in 1990 or before that. I'd guess peak kareem or lebron with era-translation have the Bulls at 50 starting in 84 and potentially winning from 88-90. But I don't much like this framing as it gives(imo) undue preference for timing. What I do think is Kareem needed less to compete, less to win, and less to dominate(all things he actually proved imo). So if you add that to Kareem also being proven outside of specific circumstances and then you add him just being way better at basketball at the start, and you add him sustaining his excellence longer...

Yeah, very clear-cut to me who deserves to be ranked higher.

And again, whatever arguments Jordan does have, Russell's are better.

Return to Player Comparisons