What's the strongest data-driven argument for Michael Jordan as GOAT?

[ChiTownHero1992]

lmao "man up" and answer the preposterous questions. this place is too much sometimes

his questions are as stupid as it gets lol. that's why i ignored him lol !!! like why didn't jordan do anything without pippen and phil? uhh because his team wasn't good clearly.

why did lebron do well with multiple teams/players? because he joined teams with other superstars 3 different times? like how is this even a question.

Who were the multiple superstars on Cleveland and LA when James signed there?

Jordan's teams were stacked in a sense...
85-86 - Bulls had Jordan and 33 year old 12x (last in 84) All-Star George Gervin who eventually went to Italy 8 months later
86-87 - Jordan
87-88 - Jordan
88-89 - Jordan, 2nd year (1st time AS) Scottie Pippen, and 31 year old (1x-1980) AS - Bill Cartwright
89-90 - Jordan, 3rd year Pippen still only a 1x AS and Cartwright
90-91 - Jordan, 2x AS Pippen, and Cartwright
91-92 - Jordan, Pippen, and Cartwright
92-93 - Jordan, Pippen and Cartwright
94-95 - Jordan joined back for 17 games, w/ Pippen, 1x AS BJ Armstrong (in 94) - Jordan however was not an all-star this year
95-96 - Jordan, Pippen and 2x AS (last in 92) Dennis Rodman!
96-97 - Jordan, Pippen and Rodman and 43yo 9x (last in 91) AS Robert Parish! - - 4 All-Stars watch out!
97-98 - Jordan, Pippen, and Rodman
01-02 - Jordan and 1x - 33o AS (in 1997) CHristian Laetner
02-03 - Jordan, 28yo 2x AS (last in 01) Jerry Stackhouse and Laetner, 39 yo 1x AS (1994) Charles Oakley - By FAR his most stacked team right!?!?!?!

That's it that is every All-Star Jordan played with...1 active (as in same year guy - Pippen), 8 total years with an active 2nd all-star on the team, and 7 former all-stars...now LeBron couldn't possibly have played with more than that right???? Glad you asked!

03-04 - 1x AS Big Z
04-05 - LeBron and 2x (current) AS Big Z
05-06 - LeBron and Big Z
06-07 - LeBron and BIg Z (Que Joker from Dark Knight meme "And Here We Go")
07-08 - LeBron, Big Z and 33yo 4x (last in 06) AS Ben Wallace,
08-09 - LeBron, Big Z, Wallace, 1x (current) Mo Williams
09-10 - LeBron, Big Z, Williams, 2x AS (last in 08) Antawn Jamison, and a 15x (last in 09) Shaquille O'Neal "never heard of him"
10-11 - LeBron, 6x AS Wade, 5x AS Bosh, Big Z, 2x AS (last in 01) Jerry Stackhouse
11-12 - LeBron, Wade, Bosh
12-13 - LeBron, Wade, Bosh, 2x AS (last in 09) Rashard Lewis, and some random shooter 10x AS (last in 11) Ray Allen
13-14 - LeBron, Wade, Bosh, Lewis and Allen
14-15 - LeBron, 3x AS (current) Kyrie Irving, 3x AS (14) Kevin Love, and 4x AS (last in 07) Shawn Marion
15-16 - LeBron, Irving, Love (now current in it), and Mo Williams back agian
16-17 - LeBron, Irving, Love, 1x AS (last in 15) Kyle Korver, and 5x AS (last in 12) Deron Williams
17-18 - LeBron, Love, 12x AS (last in 15) Wade, 2x AS (last in 17) Isaiah Thomas, 3x AS (last in 12) Derrick Rose
18-19 - LeBron, 3x AS (last in 13) Rondo, 1x AS (last in 13) Tyson Chandler
19-20 - LeBron, Rondo, 8x AS (last in 14) Dwight Howard, and 7x (current) AS Anthony Davis
20-21 - LeBron, Davis, 2x AS (last in 18) Andre Drummond, 3x AS (last in 17) Marc Gasol
"Pause a take a deep breath for this next year"
21-22- LeBron, Davis, Howard, Rondo, Thomas, 1x AS (lsat in 17) DeAndre Jordan, 10x AS (last in 17) Carmelo Anthony, and 9x AS (last in 20) Russell Westbrook (8 All-Stars on a team)
22-23 - LeBron, Davis, Westbrook and 1x As (last in 19) D'Angelo Russell

Phew you ready for final tallys - that is 7 active All-Stars (Big Z, Mo Williams, Wade, Bosh, Kyrie, Love, and Davis), including 14 years with a 2nd all-star, and 6 years with 3+ active all-stars on the team and wait for it 20 former all-stars!

But yea Jordan had more help!

Even if we take guys more than 2 years removed form their AS peak:
Jordan played with 3 All-stars Pippen, Stackhouse and Armstrong
LeBron played with 14 All-Stars Big Z, Wallace, Mo Williams, Jamison, O'Neal, Wade, Bosh, Allen, Irving, Love, Korver, Thomas, Davis and Westbrook

[MavsDirk41]

PC Board looking like Jordan won't be ranked 2nd all time. Jordan fans focus on dissing LeBron that they forgot to make a strong argument for Jordan.

6 titles is a drop in the ocean compared to 11

Well if the PC board says something then it must be the truth!! What about CBS and ESPN ranking Jordan #1? I guess they got it all wrong…

The problem is you guys ignore the arguments for Jordan over James because you dont like them

[Ugalde]

lmao "man up" and answer the preposterous questions. this place is too much sometimes

his questions are as stupid as it gets lol. that's why i ignored him lol !!! like why didn't jordan do anything without pippen and phil? uhh because his team wasn't good clearly.

why did lebron do well with multiple teams/players? because he joined teams with other superstars 3 different times? like how is this even a question.

Who were the multiple superstars on Cleveland and LA when James signed there?

kyrie, kevin love. anthony davis.

[zimpy27]

PC Board looking like Jordan won't be ranked 2nd all time. Jordan fans focus on dissing LeBron that they forgot to make a strong argument for Jordan.

6 titles is a drop in the ocean compared to 11

Well if the PC board says something then it must be the truth!! What about CBS and ESPN ranking Jordan #1? I guess they got it all wrong…

The problem is you guys ignore the arguments for Jordan over James because you dont like them

They aren't ignored, it's just that many of the stats people use to support Jordan wouldn't be used to support any player in their rankings. Titles won has impact but the number is limited and has been since people disregarded Russells 11 as making him the GOAT.

Box score stats and box-score derived stats like BPM, VORP, PER, WS are also not used to separate player in ranking. They depend too much on team construct since efficiency and win shares depend heavily on teammates. They aren't serving anyone to be brought up in a discussion aimed at comparing players.

Stats that try observe the impact of a player when they are on court vs off court and who they play with seem to be the best for the task.

When talking NBA peaks I think Jordan does make it up to number 1 on the list.
viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2239885
Jordan also had the most POY seasons
viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1004743

So jumping up and down and complaining about bias doesn't really move anyone. It just makes it seem like something didn't go your way and it makes you annoyed.

[MavsDirk41]

PC Board looking like Jordan won't be ranked 2nd all time. Jordan fans focus on dissing LeBron that they forgot to make a strong argument for Jordan.

6 titles is a drop in the ocean compared to 11

Well if the PC board says something then it must be the truth!! What about CBS and ESPN ranking Jordan #1? I guess they got it all wrong…

The problem is you guys ignore the arguments for Jordan over James because you dont like them

They aren't ignored, it's just that many of the stats people use to support Jordan wouldn't be used to support any player in their rankings. Titles won has impact but the number is limited and has been since people disregarded Russells 11 as making him the GOAT.

Box score stats and box-score derived stats like BPM, VORP, PER, WS are also not used to separate player in ranking. They depend too much on team construct since efficiency and win shares depend heavily on teammates. They aren't serving anyone to be brought up in a discussion aimed at comparing players.

Stats that try observe the impact of a player when they are on court vs off court and who they play with seem to be the best for the task.

When talking NBA peaks I think Jordan does make it up to number 1 on the list.
viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2239885
Jordan also had the most POY seasons
viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1004743

So jumping up and down and complaining about bias doesn't really move anyone. It just makes it seem like something didn't go your way and it makes you annoyed.

Why dont we just rank players how we see it and call it a day. Makes sense to me. Im just tired of the “Jordan wouldnt have taken the 07 Cavs team to the finals or won in 15”….there is no way to prove or disprove this. Same as “ if Jordan didnt retire in 93 the Bulls would have won 8 straight titles”….no way to prove or disprove. We can only go off what actually happened. There will never be a consensus goat and these discussions or rankings never prove anything or change anybodys mind. Its like groundhog day on here when this topic is brought up.

[zimpy27]

Well if the PC board says something then it must be the truth!! What about CBS and ESPN ranking Jordan #1? I guess they got it all wrong…

The problem is you guys ignore the arguments for Jordan over James because you dont like them

They aren't ignored, it's just that many of the stats people use to support Jordan wouldn't be used to support any player in their rankings. Titles won has impact but the number is limited and has been since people disregarded Russells 11 as making him the GOAT.

Box score stats and box-score derived stats like BPM, VORP, PER, WS are also not used to separate player in ranking. They depend too much on team construct since efficiency and win shares depend heavily on teammates. They aren't serving anyone to be brought up in a discussion aimed at comparing players.

Stats that try observe the impact of a player when they are on court vs off court and who they play with seem to be the best for the task.

When talking NBA peaks I think Jordan does make it up to number 1 on the list.
viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2239885
Jordan also had the most POY seasons
viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1004743

So jumping up and down and complaining about bias doesn't really move anyone. It just makes it seem like something didn't go your way and it makes you annoyed.

Why dont we just rank players how we see it and call it a day. Makes sense to me. Im just tired of the “Jordan wouldnt have taken the 07 Cavs team to the finals or won in 15”….there is no way to prove or disprove this. Same as “ if Jordan didnt retire in 93 the Bulls would have won 8 straight titles”….no way to prove or disprove. We can only go off what actually happened. There will never be a consensus goat and these discussions or rankings never prove anything or change anybodys mind. Its like groundhog day on here when this topic is brought up.

I agree there will not be consensus based on current candidates. Maybe someone blows everyone away in future though..

[MavsDirk41]

They aren't ignored, it's just that many of the stats people use to support Jordan wouldn't be used to support any player in their rankings. Titles won has impact but the number is limited and has been since people disregarded Russells 11 as making him the GOAT.

Box score stats and box-score derived stats like BPM, VORP, PER, WS are also not used to separate player in ranking. They depend too much on team construct since efficiency and win shares depend heavily on teammates. They aren't serving anyone to be brought up in a discussion aimed at comparing players.

Stats that try observe the impact of a player when they are on court vs off court and who they play with seem to be the best for the task.

When talking NBA peaks I think Jordan does make it up to number 1 on the list.
viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2239885
Jordan also had the most POY seasons
viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1004743

So jumping up and down and complaining about bias doesn't really move anyone. It just makes it seem like something didn't go your way and it makes you annoyed.

Why dont we just rank players how we see it and call it a day. Makes sense to me. Im just tired of the “Jordan wouldnt have taken the 07 Cavs team to the finals or won in 15”….there is no way to prove or disprove this. Same as “ if Jordan didnt retire in 93 the Bulls would have won 8 straight titles”….no way to prove or disprove. We can only go off what actually happened. There will never be a consensus goat and these discussions or rankings never prove anything or change anybodys mind. Its like groundhog day on here when this topic is brought up.

I agree there will not be consensus based on current candidates. Maybe someone blows everyone away in future though..

Maybe, I seriously doubt it, but you never know

[DB23]

They aren't ignored, it's just that many of the stats people use to support Jordan wouldn't be used to support any player in their rankings. Titles won has impact but the number is limited and has been since people disregarded Russells 11 as making him the GOAT.

Box score stats and box-score derived stats like BPM, VORP, PER, WS are also not used to separate player in ranking. They depend too much on team construct since efficiency and win shares depend heavily on teammates. They aren't serving anyone to be brought up in a discussion aimed at comparing players.

Stats that try observe the impact of a player when they are on court vs off court and who they play with seem to be the best for the task.

When talking NBA peaks I think Jordan does make it up to number 1 on the list.
viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2239885
Jordan also had the most POY seasons
viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1004743

So jumping up and down and complaining about bias doesn't really move anyone. It just makes it seem like something didn't go your way and it makes you annoyed.

Why dont we just rank players how we see it and call it a day. Makes sense to me. Im just tired of the “Jordan wouldnt have taken the 07 Cavs team to the finals or won in 15”….there is no way to prove or disprove this. Same as “ if Jordan didnt retire in 93 the Bulls would have won 8 straight titles”….no way to prove or disprove. We can only go off what actually happened. There will never be a consensus goat and these discussions or rankings never prove anything or change anybodys mind. Its like groundhog day on here when this topic is brought up.

I agree there will not be consensus based on current candidates. Maybe someone blows everyone away in future though..

There seems to be a pretty broad consensus among those who saw both play. MJ dominates.

Really, it would be useful to know how old people are when having these discussions as there is a lot of intellectual dishonesty that people throw around.

[Onlytimewilltel]

6/6

That’s why Bill Russell and Robert Horry are ahead of MJ

[zimpy27]

Why dont we just rank players how we see it and call it a day. Makes sense to me. Im just tired of the “Jordan wouldnt have taken the 07 Cavs team to the finals or won in 15”….there is no way to prove or disprove this. Same as “ if Jordan didnt retire in 93 the Bulls would have won 8 straight titles”….no way to prove or disprove. We can only go off what actually happened. There will never be a consensus goat and these discussions or rankings never prove anything or change anybodys mind. Its like groundhog day on here when this topic is brought up.

I agree there will not be consensus based on current candidates. Maybe someone blows everyone away in future though..

There seems to be a pretty broad consensus among those who saw both play. MJ dominates.

Really, it would be useful to know how old people are when having these discussions as there is a lot of intellectual dishonesty that people throw around.

You'd have to be pretty old to compare both. Like you'd have to be thinking critically about the product you watched when you saw Jordan prior to 1984 and you'd have to be thinking as critically to now with LeBron still playing. So you'd have to be 60+ years old with 40 years of vested interest in the NBA.

You can't be a child watching MJ and comparing that to how your brain now critically dissects what you see in LeBron. Kids believe in Santa Clause and then grow up to engineer iphones, the critical thinking is not the same.

[Onlytimewilltel]

Why dont we just rank players how we see it and call it a day. Makes sense to me. Im just tired of the “Jordan wouldnt have taken the 07 Cavs team to the finals or won in 15”….there is no way to prove or disprove this. Same as “ if Jordan didnt retire in 93 the Bulls would have won 8 straight titles”….no way to prove or disprove. We can only go off what actually happened. There will never be a consensus goat and these discussions or rankings never prove anything or change anybodys mind. Its like groundhog day on here when this topic is brought up.

I agree there will not be consensus based on current candidates. Maybe someone blows everyone away in future though..

Maybe, I seriously doubt it, but you never know

Sure. You doubt it buddy. Just like people said “there will never be anyone ever better than (enter name from 60-70 years ago).”

That sh*t for the birds. The game will keep evolving most likely and folks 60-70 years from now will be looking on this era like we look back on “part time plumbers and fireman” era lol

[Rawbo619]

Box score stats and counting rings seems to be the limit of a data-driven argument for Jordan

I like that people listed very acceptable data and then someone posts this like they didn't even bother to look what was posted.

[Yank3525]

Why dont we just rank players how we see it and call it a day. Makes sense to me. Im just tired of the “Jordan wouldnt have taken the 07 Cavs team to the finals or won in 15”….there is no way to prove or disprove this. Same as “ if Jordan didnt retire in 93 the Bulls would have won 8 straight titles”….no way to prove or disprove. We can only go off what actually happened. There will never be a consensus goat and these discussions or rankings never prove anything or change anybodys mind. Its like groundhog day on here when this topic is brought up.

I agree there will not be consensus based on current candidates. Maybe someone blows everyone away in future though..

There seems to be a pretty broad consensus among those who saw both play. MJ dominates.

Really, it would be useful to know how old people are when having these discussions as there is a lot of intellectual dishonesty that people throw around.

Yup.

Realgm is so detached from reality it isn't even funny. The vast majority of the public picks Jordan over anyone.

I like that people listed very acceptable data and then someone posts this like they didn't even bother to look what was posted.

Yeah, they are full of ****.

[Marrrcuss]

his questions are as stupid as it gets lol. that's why i ignored him lol !!! like why didn't jordan do anything without pippen and phil? uhh because his team wasn't good clearly.

why did lebron do well with multiple teams/players? because he joined teams with other superstars 3 different times? like how is this even a question.

Who were the multiple superstars on Cleveland and LA when James signed there?

kyrie, kevin love. anthony davis.

Yea, AD greeted Bron at Staples when he signed with LA....

Edit: Love was in Cleveland to welcome the king, as well.

[ThreeMileAllan]

Man I miss when Kobe fans debated the Goat argument. It was at least fun and I could respect Kobes drive.

LeBrons argument died the moment he went to Miami. It was over then and it's over now.

Sent from my SM-S918U1 using Tapatalk

[Warspite]

If only we had video of the 2 players in question. Maybe that would help.


Stats are supposed to explain and give context to what you see on video. if it doesnt then the stat is suspect.

[nikster]

his questions are as stupid as it gets lol. that's why i ignored him lol !!! like why didn't jordan do anything without pippen and phil? uhh because his team wasn't good clearly.

why did lebron do well with multiple teams/players? because he joined teams with other superstars 3 different times? like how is this even a question.

Who were the multiple superstars on Cleveland and LA when James signed there?

Jordan's teams were stacked in a sense...
85-86 - Bulls had Jordan and 33 year old 12x (last in 84) All-Star George Gervin who eventually went to Italy 8 months later
86-87 - Jordan
87-88 - Jordan
88-89 - Jordan, 2nd year (1st time AS) Scottie Pippen, and 31 year old (1x-1980) AS - Bill Cartwright
89-90 - Jordan, 3rd year Pippen still only a 1x AS and Cartwright
90-91 - Jordan, 2x AS Pippen, and Cartwright
91-92 - Jordan, Pippen, and Cartwright
92-93 - Jordan, Pippen and Cartwright
94-95 - Jordan joined back for 17 games, w/ Pippen, 1x AS BJ Armstrong (in 94) - Jordan however was not an all-star this year
95-96 - Jordan, Pippen and 2x AS (last in 92) Dennis Rodman!
96-97 - Jordan, Pippen and Rodman and 43yo 9x (last in 91) AS Robert Parish! - - 4 All-Stars watch out!
97-98 - Jordan, Pippen, and Rodman
01-02 - Jordan and 1x - 33o AS (in 1997) CHristian Laetner
02-03 - Jordan, 28yo 2x AS (last in 01) Jerry Stackhouse and Laetner, 39 yo 1x AS (1994) Charles Oakley - By FAR his most stacked team right!?!?!?!

That's it that is every All-Star Jordan played with...1 active (as in same year guy - Pippen), 8 total years with an active 2nd all-star on the team, and 7 former all-stars...now LeBron couldn't possibly have played with more than that right???? Glad you asked!

03-04 - 1x AS Big Z
04-05 - LeBron and 2x (current) AS Big Z
05-06 - LeBron and Big Z
06-07 - LeBron and BIg Z (Que Joker from Dark Knight meme "And Here We Go")
07-08 - LeBron, Big Z and 33yo 4x (last in 06) AS Ben Wallace,
08-09 - LeBron, Big Z, Wallace, 1x (current) Mo Williams
09-10 - LeBron, Big Z, Williams, 2x AS (last in 08) Antawn Jamison, and a 15x (last in 09) Shaquille O'Neal "never heard of him"
10-11 - LeBron, 6x AS Wade, 5x AS Bosh, Big Z, 2x AS (last in 01) Jerry Stackhouse
11-12 - LeBron, Wade, Bosh
12-13 - LeBron, Wade, Bosh, 2x AS (last in 09) Rashard Lewis, and some random shooter 10x AS (last in 11) Ray Allen
13-14 - LeBron, Wade, Bosh, Lewis and Allen
14-15 - LeBron, 3x AS (current) Kyrie Irving, 3x AS (14) Kevin Love, and 4x AS (last in 07) Shawn Marion
15-16 - LeBron, Irving, Love (now current in it), and Mo Williams back agian
16-17 - LeBron, Irving, Love, 1x AS (last in 15) Kyle Korver, and 5x AS (last in 12) Deron Williams
17-18 - LeBron, Love, 12x AS (last in 15) Wade, 2x AS (last in 17) Isaiah Thomas, 3x AS (last in 12) Derrick Rose
18-19 - LeBron, 3x AS (last in 13) Rondo, 1x AS (last in 13) Tyson Chandler
19-20 - LeBron, Rondo, 8x AS (last in 14) Dwight Howard, and 7x (current) AS Anthony Davis
20-21 - LeBron, Davis, 2x AS (last in 18) Andre Drummond, 3x AS (last in 17) Marc Gasol
"Pause a take a deep breath for this next year"
21-22- LeBron, Davis, Howard, Rondo, Thomas, 1x AS (lsat in 17) DeAndre Jordan, 10x AS (last in 17) Carmelo Anthony, and 9x AS (last in 20) Russell Westbrook (8 All-Stars on a team)
22-23 - LeBron, Davis, Westbrook and 1x As (last in 19) D'Angelo Russell

Phew you ready for final tallys - that is 7 active All-Stars (Big Z, Mo Williams, Wade, Bosh, Kyrie, Love, and Davis), including 14 years with a 2nd all-star, and 6 years with 3+ active all-stars on the team and wait for it 20 former all-stars!

But yea Jordan had more help!

Even if we take guys more than 2 years removed form their AS peak:
Jordan played with 3 All-stars Pippen, Stackhouse and Armstrong
LeBron played with 14 All-Stars Big Z, Wallace, Mo Williams, Jamison, O'Neal, Wade, Bosh, Allen, Irving, Love, Korver, Thomas, Davis and Westbrook

Kind of a pointless way of comparing strength of supporting cast. Not all all stars are equal even in the seasons they won them, let alone when they are removed from that season. Your own sarcastic comment about the Wizards being Jordan's most stacked team shows how meaningless you think this comparison is

[Profound23]

because I said so

[zimpy27]

I agree there will not be consensus based on current candidates. Maybe someone blows everyone away in future though..

There seems to be a pretty broad consensus among those who saw both play. MJ dominates.

Really, it would be useful to know how old people are when having these discussions as there is a lot of intellectual dishonesty that people throw around.

Yup.

Realgm is so detached from reality it isn't even funny. The vast majority of the public picks Jordan over anyone.

I like that people listed very acceptable data and then someone posts this like they didn't even bother to look what was posted.

Yeah, they are full of ****.

There wasn't any decent data in this thread when that was posted, actually provoking people to lift their game is necessary sometimes.

And the average person is influenced by the marketed narrative. If I want to have a good understanding of a topic I'm not asking the average population that has seen snippets of info on the topic, I'm asking people who have written extensively on the topic. In this case the topic is ranking players and you want find any better expertise than those on the PC board completing ranking projects over there. They've been doing it for years.

[SpreeS]

I thought Jordan would come back on top this year, but the gap between him and Lebron has become even bigger than in 2020...really sad story. I guarantee that more than half of those who voted were not born or walked under the table with a diapers in the middle of 90ies.

Now about Jordans teams

1990 ECF game 7 against DET (4-3)

Jordan 31pts + 8ast (27 fga)
the rest 43pts (63 fga) (Grant 10pts 3-17, Pippen 2pts 1-10)

1989 ECF game 6 against DET (4-2)

Jordan 32pts + 13ast (26 fga)
Pippen played only 1min
Sellers 16pts
Hodges 15pts
Cartwright 41min 1-8 fga 6reb 1blk 4pts

1988 ESCF vs DET (4-1)

Pippen/Grant are rookies and Sam Vincent with 12,8pts on .408fg and ,472ts is second best scorer in the serries.

1987 1st PO rnd against BOS (3-0)

Jordan/Oakley + Corzine/Paxson/Banks (other 3 starters) against BOS dynasty

Jordan won everything when Pippen and Grant started looking like real players.