RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #3 (Michael Jordan)

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RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #3 (Michael Jordan) 

Post#1 » by Doctor MJ » Fri Jul 7, 2023 5:18 pm

Our system is now as follows:

1. We have a pool of Nominees you are to choose from for your Induction (main) vote to decide who next gets on the List. Choose your top vote, and if you'd like to, a second vote which will be used for runoff purposes if needed.

2. There will also be a Nomination vote where whoever gets nominated by the most voters gets added to the Nominee list for subsequent votes. This is again optional.

3. You must include reasoning for each of your votes, though you may re-use your old words in a new post.

4. Post as much as they want, but when you do your official Vote make it really clear to me at the top of that post that that post is your Vote. And if you decide to change your vote before the votes are tallied, please edit that same Vote post.

5. Anyone may post thoughts, but please only make a Vote post if you're on the Voter list. If you'd like to be added to the project, please ask in the General Thread for the project. Note that you will not be added immediately to the project now. If you express an interest during the #2 thread, for example, the earliest you'll be added to the Voter list is for the #3.

5. I'll tally the votes when I wake up the morning after the Deadline (I don't care if you change things after the official Deadline, but once I tally, it's over). For this specific Vote, if people ask before the Deadline, I'll extend it.

Here's the list of the Voter Pool as it stands right now (and if I forgot anyone I approved, do let me know):

Spoiler:
AEnigma
Ambrose
ceilng raiser
ceoofkobefans
Clyde Frazier
Colbinii
cupcakesnake
Doctor MJ
Dooley
DQuinn1575
Dr Positivity
Dutchball97
eminence
f4p
falcolombardi
Fundamentals21
HeartBreakKid
homecourtloss
iggymcfrack
LA Bird
JimmyFromNz
lessthanjake
Lou Fan
Moonbeam
Narigo
OhayoKD
One_and_Done
penbeast0
rk2023
ShaqAttac
Taj FTW
Tim Lehrbach
trelos6
trex_8063
ty 4191
ZeppelinPage


Alright, the Nominees for you to choose among for the next slot on the list (in alphabetical order):

Wilt Chamberlain
Image

Tim Duncan
Image

Michael Jordan
Image

Hakeem Olajuwon
Image

Bill Russell
Image
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #3 (Deadline 7/9 11:59pm) 

Post#2 » by HeartBreakKid » Fri Jul 7, 2023 5:32 pm

Is the voter pool updated? A couple people requested to get in last thread.
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #3 (Deadline 7/9 11:59pm) 

Post#3 » by ty 4191 » Fri Jul 7, 2023 5:33 pm

HeartBreakKid wrote:Is the voter pool updated? A couple people requested to get in last thread.


Yes, please and thank you! :)
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #3 (Deadline 7/9 11:59pm) 

Post#4 » by eminence » Fri Jul 7, 2023 5:40 pm

It's Russell vs Duncan in this one for me, as essentially an ancient and a modern version of the same archetype. Won't have time to post until a vote, but hope to read some direct discussion on those two, not just a Russell vs Jordan thread.

On nominees I'll probably be going with Mikan again due to voter presence, but no large preference over Shaq/KG as other possible candidates.

Good luck y'all while I'm away :)
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #3 (Deadline 7/9 11:59pm) 

Post#5 » by ty 4191 » Fri Jul 7, 2023 5:51 pm

Vote: Wilt Chamberlain
Second: Bill Russell
Third: Michael Jordan


https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1PBH_Sb6IywvCQ8LDLtka4jOzuLdYRKIsvrjIyN67knM/edit

(See “Career Data” Tab). Wilt faced the greatest defenses in NBA history in the playoffs. And look at his record, nonetheless.

Further supplemented with data here:

ty 4191 wrote:
feyki wrote:
I'd explain it(for the thousandth time) with that way, Kareem played against 1th best defence(93,5) with 34,8 PPG and %67,5 TS and played against second best defence(93,6) with 32,6 PPG and with %55,2 TS in the 1974 Playoffs. Wonder Why?


That's true, although, Kareem never faced a single All Time Great (-7 or better) defense in his career, in 49 Series across 18 Seasons.

Wilt vs. Elite + All Time Great Defenses:
45% of total playoff games played
47.2 MPG
25.0 PPG
26.6 RBG
3.5 AST/G
rTS%: +3.8%

Lebron vs. Elite + All Time Great Defenses:
22.1% of total playoff games played
42.3 MPG
26.3 PGG
7.8 RBG
6.5 AST/G
rTS%: -1.3%

Kareem vs. Elite + All Time Great Defenses:
13.9% of total playoff games played
42.1 MPG
29.4 PPG
14.2 RBG
3.8 AST/G
rTS%: +4.8%

Jordan vs. Elite + All Time Great Defenses
33.0% of total playoff games played
42.1 MPG
32.7 PPG
6.3 RBG
6.3 AST/G
rTS%: 0.15%


From this amazing 70s Fan thread/project:

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1836300
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #3 (Deadline 7/9 11:59pm) 

Post#6 » by ShaqAttac » Fri Jul 7, 2023 6:13 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:Our system is now as follows:

1. We have a pool of Nominees you are to choose from for your Induction (main) vote to decide who next gets on the List. Choose your top vote, and if you'd like to, a second vote which will b

Heartbreak said they wanted a vote last round.
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #3 (Deadline 7/9 11:59pm) 

Post#7 » by Doctor MJ » Fri Jul 7, 2023 6:14 pm

ty 4191 wrote:
HeartBreakKid wrote:Is the voter pool updated? A couple people requested to get in last thread.


Yes, please and thank you! :)


My apologies ty. I missed you (and I got PMs from others urging me to let you in!)

Adding you now!
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #3 (Deadline 7/9 11:59pm) 

Post#8 » by One_and_Done » Fri Jul 7, 2023 6:17 pm

My vote hasn't changed, so I am copy pasting the same reasoning.

Vote:
1. Duncan
2. Jordan

Nominate: Shaq

One_and_Done wrote:
I have gone back and forth for my vote between Kareem, Jordan and Duncan. For me they are the clear next 3 players after Lebron. After much thought, I’ve landed on Duncan as my vote for the following reasons.

Firstly, Duncan has in my view the best impact of the 3, which is the whole ethos behind my voting philosophy. He’s got the highest peak of these 3, and a strong prime and incredible longevity. Kareem probably has better longevity than him, or at least a longer prime, but I think Duncan peaked higher. For all Kareem’s huge stats, once you adjust for pace, or per 100 possessions, Kareem’s advantage basically disappears. I also feel Duncan’s prime, from 98 to 07, is “long enough”. He certainly beats Jordan out for longevity, based on how their careers actually unfolded.

Kareem and Jordan are different sorts of offensive powerhouses, and obviously both are superior to Duncan on that end. On the other end though, Duncan is my defensive GOAT. He lets you build a dominant contender around him on that end, while still giving you elite offense in his offensive prime/peak. He’s also obviously a better leader, though I don’t like overvaluing that stuff. The record of him leading the Spurs to 19 years with a win record equal to 58+ wins every year is basically absurd. He didn’t win as many titles as Russell, but that’s because he played in the modern era where titles are harder to come by. I’m not the biggest advanced stats guy, I’m not going to look at someone being 0.4 ahead for their career and come to the conclusion that guy is better. There’s just too much noise to interpret single data points that way. However, Duncn is an advanced stats darling, who the numbers indicate is one of the very best ever. Those defensive smarts, deceptive athleticism in his younger days, and crazy long arms of unconfirmed wingspan, just let him wall off the paint. You can build a whole team around that skillset.

Take for instance this comparison between Duncan and Kareem per 100 possessions. Kareem’s best per 100 possession playoffs that we know of is in 1977. He posted insane playoff stats of 37.8 points, 19.4 rebounds and 4.5 assists per 100 possessions on 646. TS%. Crazy right. Yet Duncan posts comparable stats in some playoffs. In 2002 for instance, at his peak, Duncan put up 36.5 points, 19.1 rebounds and 6.6 assists per 100 possessions. Sure, his TS% was only 550, but we can all agree Kareem has the offensive advantage. That said, in 2006 Duncan put up 37.1, 15.1, and 4.7 per 100 on 625. TS%. Then there’s the other side of the coin, where defensive play was not exactly Kareem’s strength. In contrast Duncan was the defensive GOAT for my money, after adjusting for era. His performance after David Robinson left, or the team performance in games D.Rob missed, shows it’s not due to David Robinson. It’s Duncan who is anchoring the D. In 2003 the Spurs were 15-3 in games Robinson missed. The year after Robinson retired the Spurs D substantially improved, and the year after it was still better. In 2002 we saw him guard Shaq while Robinson was hurt to great effect.

Kareem and Jordan also played in an era where the rules very much favoured them in a comparison with 2002 or 2003 Duncan. Illegal defence rules for instance, which greatly helped players like Kareem (and Hakeem) were absent during Duncan’s peak, and he coped fine. Sure, the 90s was physical, but not compared to 2002 or 2003 where the NBA defensive dominance was so bad that the league changed the rules a few years later. Yet we see Duncan thrive at his peak against that brutal defensive environment.

Duncan also has this incredible career where he seems to have done everything that could have been expected. He was a top 5 player as a rookie, and by year 2 he was the best player in the league. I don’t think you can really look at any of his prime years from 1998 to 2007 and say that his teams should have gone further, and in fact most of them overachieved. The years where they come up short the reasons are pretty obvious, and generally seem to be the fault of other factors not Duncan himself. Jordan had a great career narrative too, but he played in a less competitive era and our perception of him as the GOAT is partly a media creation rather than grounded in empirical reality. If Jordan played today his game would not translate as well without a much better 3 point shot, and the demands on him offball and on D would have been so much more severe that his offensive game would have been suboptimal. Meanwhile the success of guys like Jokic, Embiid and Gobert show Duncan would translate very well. Young Duncan was also deceptively athletic as well. Something younger fans who only saw old man Duncan don’t realise. In his rookie year he played small forward.

Kareem’s 1970 season shows his floor raising ability, and the next year shows how he could lift your ceiling, but I think both efforts are inferior to Duncan’s peak in 2002 or 2003. Even years like 2001 or 1999 Duncan’s support casts are really rubbish. Rewatching the 1999 finals the other days it’s jarring how bad the basketball is; it doesn’t even resemble the modern game. Duncan looks like the only player out there at times, even David Robinson was relatively meh compared to him. But the takeaway from Duncan’s career is his skillset and game still translated. Even in 2013 and 2014 on the Spurs finals and title run he was maybe the best player in an ensemble cast, despite playing on 1 leg. Meanwhile the modern spacing would greatly assist him. Now that’s true for Jordan and Kareem also, but I think some of their other strengths wouldn’t carry over as much and I have Duncan as just better to begin with.
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #3 (Deadline 7/9 11:59pm) 

Post#9 » by Doctor MJ » Fri Jul 7, 2023 6:19 pm

ShaqAttac wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:Our system is now as follows:

1. We have a pool of Nominees you are to choose from for your Induction (main) vote to decide who next gets on the List. Choose your top vote, and if you'd like to, a second vote which will b

Heartbreak said they wanted a vote last round.


Thank you, I'll add him too Shaq Attac!

So, y'all, thank you on this. I'd rather people post wanting to join in the general thread where it won't get so easily swamped, but clearly I don't want people to just never end up in the project because that's not what they realize to do.

Those already in know my policy of not letting people vote in the first thread they engage with as a general principle, but if someone asks in one thread and there's no evidence I've seen it when I make the next one, it probably means I missed it and could use a little help.

Sincerely,
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #3 (Deadline 7/9 11:59pm) 

Post#10 » by Ambrose » Fri Jul 7, 2023 6:48 pm

#1 Michael Jordan

To put it simply, I personally think Jordan is flat out better than anyone else left. There may be a run or two from Russell or Duncan or Wilt that look comparable but nothing like Jordan's stretch of combined individual and team dominance. I also don't think he has the dips or red flags the others have. I love data as much as anyone, (not saying data isn't high on Jordan) but sometimes we do use that in place of simply "proving it" and I think putting anyone else other than Jordan here would be an example of that. However, I'm quite on Russell offensively, so I can see why those who view him higher may disagree.

To go back to my stated criteria from a prior thread, I believe the per season title equity Jordan gives you outweighs the longevity advantage of Duncan, and there is no longevity concern against guys like Russell or Wilt. Being the greatest scorer to ever live, who was also postseason resilient, is incredibly valuable, especially when he's also a plus defender, can work off-ball, and playmake for others. I'm curious to see what he would've been able to achieve as a help defender in a different era where they didn't have weird rules, as he had the IQ to accel there as well.

Nominate: Magic Johnson
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #3 (Deadline 7/9 11:59pm) 

Post#11 » by Dr Positivity » Fri Jul 7, 2023 7:11 pm

Vote #3 - Michael Jordan

Probably a lopsided vote so I won't spend too much energy here. I like players who are by far the best of their generation like Lebron, Kareem and MJ. I don't think anyone has a big enough longevity advantage over him where it's not weighed out by being worse. I value Curry's era more but I rate him as less valuable than MJ for his time period and his star longevity is slightly worse, but I could be talked into nominating him relatively soon.

Nominate: Shaq
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #3 (Deadline 7/9 11:59pm) 

Post#12 » by rk2023 » Fri Jul 7, 2023 7:30 pm

Ambrose wrote:#1 Michael Jordan

To put it simply, I personally think Jordan is flat out better than anyone else left. There may be a run or two from Russell or Duncan or Wilt that look comparable but nothing like Jordan's stretch of combined individual and team dominance. I also don't think he has the dips or red flags the others have. I love data as much as anyone, (not saying data isn't high on Jordan) but sometimes we do use that in place of simply "proving it" and I think putting anyone else other than Jordan here would be an example of that. However, I'm quite on Russell offensively, so I can see why those who view him higher may disagree.

To go back to my stated criteria from a prior thread, I believe the per season title equity Jordan gives you outweighs the longevity advantage of Duncan, and there is no longevity concern against guys like Russell or Wilt. Being the greatest scorer to ever live, who was also postseason resilient, is incredibly valuable, especially when he's also a plus defender, can work off-ball, and playmake for others. I'm curious to see what he would've been able to achieve as a help defender in a different era where they didn't have weird rules, as he had the IQ to accel there as well.

Nominate: Magic Johnson


Not that I disagree with the overarching vote here, but I think Russell and Wilt’s longevity could be argued as more impressive than Jordan’s with context applied.
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #3 (Deadline 7/9 11:59pm) 

Post#13 » by Doctor MJ » Fri Jul 7, 2023 8:30 pm

eminence wrote:It's Russell vs Duncan in this one for me, as essentially an ancient and a modern version of the same archetype. Won't have time to post until a vote, but hope to read some direct discussion on those two, not just a Russell vs Jordan thread.


Some thoughts:

- I wouldn't say that Russell & Duncan are quite of the same archetype. I think Russell's agility makes his archetype more suitable for references to Olajuwon & Garnett.

- I don't think a preference for Duncan here is unreasonable at all. I completely understand how folks just see Duncan as a better overall basketball player in any era even if I think it's not so clear.

- I will say that though that if we're talking about era dominance, it's not just that Russell tops Duncan the way he tops everyone else. It's that I just don't have Duncan as that much of an outlier in general.

To try to put it in perspective, when I did my POY back to history, here's where the current list of nominees stacked up in terms of Top-2 finishes:

Bill Russell 13
Michael Jordan 9
Wilt Chamberlain 7
Tim Duncan 4
Hakeem Olajuwon 3

(ftr, I have LeBron at 9 and Kareem at 7.)

You can see it's not a thing where Duncan dominates his peers like the most any modern guy could be expected to and it's just not quite as much as Russell (who I'm obviously very high on). Rather, it's that Duncan didn't have the same kind of ownership over those top couple spots as LeBron and the other original Nominees.

While I'm at it, because it's relevant and I have it in the same spreadsheet. here's the same Top-2 study for DPOY:

Bill Russell 13
Hakeem Olajuwon 7
Wilt Chamberlain 6
Tim Duncan 5
Michael Jordan 3

(ftr, I have LeBron at 5 and Kareem at 2.)
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #3 (Deadline 7/9 11:59pm) 

Post#14 » by trelos6 » Fri Jul 7, 2023 8:33 pm

Vote: Jordan

His peak is now too hard to pass up, despite limited seasons compared to a few others.

I have him at 8 seasons being the undisputed best player, 10 as an arguable top 3 player, 11 all-nba, 14 as an all star level, and 9 all defensive years.

He edges out Bill Russell and Tim Duncan.

For now I’d have Russell 4, Duncan 5.

Nomination: Shaq
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #3 (Deadline 7/9 11:59pm) 

Post#15 » by Doctor MJ » Fri Jul 7, 2023 8:41 pm

My prior vote remains applicable:

Doctor MJ wrote:Vote 1: Bill Russell

Image

Spoiler:
The Great Rivals
Alright, Imma take a bit of a journey here, and I'll give the trigger warning that Wilt Chamberlain will loom large here, and will be criticized. I don't do this because I hate Wilt, but because Wilt was always seen as the GOAT basketball talent, and the standard by which others were judged. Even Russell himself came to be re-defined as a contrast to Wilt in a way that was very different from how he was perceived originally - which I might say could have been called a Goliath-type.

So, I think that probably the most important specific comparison to understand when doing historical basketball GOATs is Russell vs Wilt. We get all sorts of stories past down about this comparison, and all savvy young skeptics find the following point resonant:

It's a team game, so if one star seems to be doing a lot more than the other but his team is losing, maybe it's because it's a TEAM GAME! It doesn't help when you hear arguments that start throwing around words like 'loser' to describe a guy whose teams did a lot more winning than losing. There's no doubt that winning-bias type arguments have been used for forever to argue for Russell over Wilt. Sufficed to say then, when I came to RealGM as a more-informed-than-most basketball fan, I ranked Wilt ahead of Russell.

As I dove deeper into the past however, a few things really shaped my perspective and swung me to the other side:

1. The fact that all through this time period it seems that defensive impact was possible to a considerably greater extent than offensive impact. This is something that by itself might be more of an argument for Russell over Oscar & West than Wilt. Simply put, in a world where offensive impact is more possible than defensive, which is where I think we tend to start by default, there are really good reasons to think that not just Wilt but other players were more deserving of MVPs than Russell.

When you realize that defense truly was king back then, then at least in-era, you lose a lot of that reason to be skeptical about Russell. When you watch a pitcher in baseball or a goalie in hockey seemingly shutdown the opposing offense, you have no qualms about calling that player the MVP of that game even if that guy couldn't be expected to hit homers or skate with grace. And to extent, the data told me that basketball in that era was somewhat analogous.

This alone didn't put Russell ahead of Wilt though, because Wilt was also capable of massive defensive impact, and Wilt was about as good of an offensive player as they come, right? I mean, even if we grant Russell the edge on defense, can it really make up for Wilt scoring 20-30 more points than Russell?

2. The incredible success of the '66-67 76ers, where Wilt was less of a scorer, and yet the team took a massive leap forward on offense.

This is where going through year-by-year and thinking about why the people involved made the decisions they made ended up having a profound impact on me. If Wilt is the greatest scorer of the age, then why would any coach come in and tell Wilt to shoot MUCH less? Well and good to say to say that changing the approach allowed for Wilt to have facilitator's impact on his teammate, but that implies that it was a choice between Shooter Wilt and Passer Wilt, and Passer Wilt was just better (at least for the context in question). From there you actually got people saying Wilt was the GOAT scorer and even better as a passer, which just doesn't make a lot of sense.

At the heart of the issue is that in the end shooting and passing are decisions that a player makes in the moment, and the expectation has always been that a player will need to do both, and thus is on the hook for deciding which move is best each and every moment. And so if a player gets incrementally better players around him, he should be a smidge less likely to shoot and more likely to pass.

So what does it say when a coach comes in and afterward a player becomes MUCH less likely to shoot and MUCH more likely to pass? That it's not really about the change in teammates, but the change to a kind of default setting. A "default setting" that really should be as close to undetectable as possible if you're reacting to what the defense gives you.

And if you're that new coach and you have any sort of common sense at all, you don't do this to any star just for the heck of it, let alone the most celebrated scorer in the history of the sport. You would only do it if you saw a problem and were so confident in what you say that you were willing to risk becoming a laughing stock for all time. And make no mistake, had Alex Hannum's new scheme backfired, that's what he would have been. When you question conventional wisdom and conventional wisdom proves correct, you generally look like a fool. When you do that in your career on something big enough to always be the first thing people remember about you, it's often a career killer.

So then I think the most important question for folks to answer about '66-67, is: What did Hannum see? So long as you take this part very seriously as essential to evaluation of Wilt, I respect others coming to different conclusions.

Way back in the day when I was doing the blogging thing I wrote a post that's probably (hopefully?) still worth reading:

Chamberlain Theory: The Real Price of Anarchy in Basketball

Which led to this general takeaway about basketball:

There is more to judging the effectiveness of a scorer, or a player in general, than simply his most obvious related statistics, and pursuit of those obvious statistics without proper awareness for the rest of the court can erase most if not all of a scorer’s positive impact, even when those obvious statistics are as great as any in all of history.

Interestingly as I read this now I think about something I wasn't aware of back then: Goodhart's Law

Any observed statistical regularity will tend to collapse once pressure is placed upon it for control purposes.

Often paraphrased (and simplified) as

When the measure becomes the target, it ceases to be a good measure.

Anyway, getting back to Russell vs Wilt, while previously I had been in a camp that might have said something like "I believe you that Russell had an edge on defense even above Wilt, but I can't fathom it was enough to make up for Wilt's 50 to 18 PPG scoring advantage", that became a lot harder to be skeptical of when I had to admit to myself that I believe that 24 PPG Wilt was actually more effective than 50 PPG Wilt.

Once I got past that statistical hang up, believing that Russell was often more valuable than Wilt seemed actually plausible.

3. I do think something that just needs to be acknowledged is that this notion of winning as many titles as possible to become the GOAT just wasn't the same thing back then, and it really wasn't the same for someone like Wilt who understandably saw basketball as just one source of public success. "Bigger than the game" makes it sound like it's about ego, but in the deeper past top athletes would jump from sport to sport to the movies to the recording studio wherever attention and fortune availed.

In some ways, that's always been true and is true now...but the difference is that someone like LeBron knows that the more he achieves through his years in the NBA, the bigger his reach after he retires. Literally this wasn't even true for Wilt. Winning a title was important...but from there to him it didn't follow that he should milk the success to achieve a dynasty. To him, it made financial sense to get himself to Hollywood. (Noteworthy that LeBron is in Hollywood now too...but he didn't come until after he was convinced he couldn't win more where he was.)

All this to say then that in some ways the entire basis of this project is "unfair" to Wilt in a way that the Peak project is not. He really wasn't trying to "max out" his NBA career the way guys do now, and the NBA-centered nature of this project then ends up effectively penalizing Wilt for this.

This pertains to why I tend to emphasize that there are myriad different ways to rank these guys, and a difference in spot lit criteria in a project such as this can easily lead to one thinking that someone else completely denies the greatness of a guy simply because a particular criteria ends up casting a smaller shadow than another angle would.

Russell on the Regular
Okay, let me continue on this point but widen out the gaze a bit:

While Wilt's tendency to stargaze is a completely understandable thing that just happens to penalize him under Career Achievement criteria, there is also the matter that it's really, really hard to keep beating all comers again and again and again the way Russell and the Celtics did. There's a certain joy in repetition that you need from this. It's not about winning the 11th title, it's about the process of proving yourself every day. It's about self-discipline, and in a team sport, working well with teammates on and off the court. If you don't have all those things, you're either going to run out of gas a lot sooner, or you're going to rip yourselves apart.

While I'm not going to say that Bill Russell is the only player with the mindset who could have put his team on his back to the top so regularly for so long, I think it speaks to a powerful capability where we all exist on a spectrum of greater and lesser ability to do it. I see many, many other stars who I think clearly don't have what it takes, and frankly I don't think I could have done it had I had Russell's body. I think it's important to recognize that this in and of itself is part of what makes Russell so special.

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Russell the Defensive Archetype
Alright, so far I've alluded to Russell's defensive greatness but I haven't really drilled down. I'm going to point to another blog post I wrote, this at the end of that experiment:

Searching for Bill Russell ~ Starring Anthony Davis (2012)

The context here was my excitement over Anthony Davis as a prospect, which makes it interesting to look back on in its own right, but I bring it up here for the same reason why I was focused on finding a new Russell at the time: I see Russell as essentially the ideal build for a defensive player.

As stunningly agile as he was for his size, Chamberlain still could not compare with Russell in this regard. He had various clear advantages to Russell (strength, and likely fine motor skills come to mind), but the agility gap meant that there were simply things Russell could do than Chamberlain couldn’t. From Bill Russell: A Biography:

Bill understood that Wilt’s game was more vertical, that is, from the floor to the basket. Wilt’s game was one of strength and power…Bill’s game was built on finesse and speed, what he called a horizontal game, as he moved back and forth across the court blocking shots, running the floor, and playing team defense.

Russell’s quickness, along with instincts and superb leaping ability, meant that Russell could cast a larger shadow on the defensive side of the court. He could run out to challenge perimeter shooting, and recover quickly enough that he wouldn’t let his team get burned. That ability to have more global impact, and his sense to use it wisely, made him a more valuable defensive player than Chamberlain could ever be.


That you'd want length has always been a thing that's clear in basketball, but it's not necessarily obvious that a more lithe frame is better than a thicker one. Strength has its advantages too after all, and if basketball were a merely one-on-one sport where one guy just backed the other guy down, thicker would be better.

But it's a team game on an open field. It's a game of horizontal space, as is alluded to in the quote, and that's where Russell's unique combination of strengths gave him immense benefit.

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Russell the Revolutionary
Now, this is a project that isn't about things like influence, and so a player being a spearhead doesn't necessarily help his case. Nonetheless, I think it's important to understand how Russell became what he became.

Russell was not a star in high school. Not because of an ultra-late growth spurt. Not because of racism. Why? A few things:

First, he played at California-state-champion type high school (McClymonds). There was extreme talent on the team, and as a result Russell didn't come of age with everything built toward making use of him. He came of age fitting in with other talents.

But I don't mean to imply that Russell was the secret MVP of those high school team with his teammates getting all the scoring glory. There's absolutely nothing to indicate that he was THAT good at the time, and when Russell describes his journey, he makes clear that the place where he really found his way in basketball was not in high school, but on a traveling all-star team he happened to join after high school.

Why do I say "happened"? As he describes it, the traveling all-star team was launched in the middle of the school year, but because Russell was a "splitter" who graduated on an earlier track, and he was the only senior on the team for whom this is true, when the all-star team came looking to add a McClymonds player to their roster, Russell was the only choice available.

And so it happened that Russell ended up spending months after his high school career riding on a bus from town to town playing basketball without any active coaching, and something funny occurred:

From "Second Wind" by Bill Russell
Within a week after the All-Star tour began, something happened that opened my eyes and chilled my spine…Every time one of them would make one of the moves I liked, I’d close my eyes just afterward and try to see the play in my mind. In other words, I’d try to create an instant replay on the inside of my eyelids.

“On this particular night I was working on replays of many plays, including McKelvey’s way of taking an offensive rebound and moving quickly to the hoop. It’s a fairly simple play for any big man in basketball, but I didn’t execute it well and McKelvey did. Since I had an accurate version of his technique in my head, I started playing with the image right there on the bench, running back the picture several times and each time inserting a part of me for McKelvey. Finally I saw myself making the whole move, and I ran this over and over, too. When I went into the game, I grabbed an offensive rebound and put it in the basket just the way McKelvey did. It seemed natural, almost as if I were just stepping into a film and following the signs.”

“For the rest of the trip I was nearly possessed by basketball. I was having so much fun that I was sorry to see each day end, and I wanted the nights to race by so that the next day could start. The long rides on the bus never bothered me. I talked basketball incessantly, and when I wasn’t talking I was sitting there with my eyes closed, watching plays in my head. I was in my own private basketball laboratory, making blueprints for myself.


Russell began this process of watching basketball in his head as an active participant, and soon began focusing less on trying to do what he saw other guys do, and instead how to defend against those guys. And then he started revolutionizing basketball right there with his eyes closed - not that he knew that then - what he knew is that he came back from the tour a much, much better basketball player.

Now, before we buy in entirely to the idea that Russell was a scrub in high school, I mean, the man did get a scholarship offer to play for the University of San Francisco (USF). Not a powerhouse program, but that doesn't mean they just hand out scholarships to anybody. Russell says that the USF scout had happened to see him play a particularly good game in high school, I'll let you decide how much of this is false modesty.

The cool thing though at USF is that since freshman couldn't play on the Varsity team, he basically got another year developing before having to fit in with stars under a coach. And in that year, he met KC Jones, and the two of them basically went Einstein on the game:

“We decided that basketball is basically a game of geometry –of lines, points and distances–and that the horizontal distances are more important than the vertical ones.”

“KC and I spent hours exploring the geometry of basketball, often losing track of the time. Neither of us needed a blackboard to see the play the other was describing…It was as if I was back on the Greyhound, assembling pictures of moves in my mind, except that KC liked to talk about what combinations of players could do. I had been daydreaming about solo moves, but he liked to work out strategies. KC has an original basketball mind, and he taught me how to scheme to make things happen on the court, particularly on defense…He was always figuring out ways to make the opponent take the shot he wanted him to take when he wanted him to take it, from the place he wanted the man to shoot.”

“Gradually, KC and I created a little basketball world of our own. Other players were lost in our conversations because we used so much shorthand that no one could follow what we were saying. Most of the players weren’t interested in strategy anyway.”


The pair would soon take the college basketball world by storm, and take USF to the big time and back-to-back NCAA championships.

I'd note here in Russell you have an example of someone with an incredibly active basketball imagination once it got turned on - which of course didn't happen until he had time AWAY from coaches - but it's not that I'm saying that his talent on this front was one-of-a-kind and that that was his truly greatest strength. Russell was unusual in such talent surely, but really it was him getting into certain types strategic habits with the reinforcement of a similar mind that caused something of an exponential curve. And of course, the application of that curve was on Russell's body, which was a far greater body talent than what Jones possessed.

I also think Russell elaborate on the horizontal game tellingly in this quote but unfortunately I'm not sure which book it was from:

Beginning in my freshman year, I developed the concept of horizontal and vertical games. I made a distinction between the two that others had not done. The horizontal game meant how I played side to side. The vertical game was how I played up and down. I knew that if I could integrate the two games, our team could win. I would always be in a position to determine where the ball was and where it was going.

What I saw was how much more there was to the game than that. I would lie awake at night and play with numbers. How much time was there in an NBA game? Forty-eight minutes. How many shots were taken in a game? Maybe a hundred and sixty, eighty or so on each side. I calculated the number of seconds each shot took—a second, a second and a half—and then I multiplied by a hundred. Two hundred forty seconds at most—or four minutes. Then add a single extra second for a foul shot missed and then the ball put in play; add another minute at the most. So, five minutes out of forty-eight are actually taken up in the vertical game.


What I'm hoping you're getting a picture of is a young man who started thinking for himself about how he could best help his team win at basketball.

From an innovator's perspective, this is what would put Russell at the very top of my list of all basketball players in history. This archetype of the horizontal & vertical force who intimidated shots like nobody's business but who relied on non-vertical agility to do a whole bunch of other things that were valuable, Russell basically invented it. Not saying no one before had ever done anything like it, but it wasn't what was being taught by coaches.

In Russell's words:

On defense it was considered even worse to leave your feet…The idea was for the defensive player to keep himself between his man and the basket at all times. Prevent lay-ups, keep control, stay on your feet. By jumping you were simply telegraphing to your opponent that you could be faked into the air. Defenses had not begun to adjust to the jump shot.


Russell would be the one, then, who would make that adjustment and have the world take notice, and only after he did that did the coaches begin coaching players to do Russell-type things.

Note: As I say this you might be thinking that this can't be true because of the arrival of the Big Man in the '40s with George Mikan and Bob Kurland to college basketball. Some things to note:

Quickly after the arrival of those players, goaltending was introduced as a rule. Had it not, then certainly at-the-rim shot-blocking would have quickly become THE way to play defense.

So what Russell's talking about isn't the ability to get your hand considerably higher than the rim, but about aggressively blocking shots on the way up, and not just for your man, but from anybody on the other team, which wasn't seen as a realistic option until Russell.

Caveat: A distinction must be made between Kurland & Mikan. Kurland was the true mega-shot-blocker, not Mikan. As such, it's possible that Russell would have grown up in a different landscape had Kurland chosen to play pro ball.

With that said, Kurland was the the big man star of the US Olympic teams in their '48 & '52 gold medals, and Russell was the star of the '56 team. From what I've read, even for players used to getting beat by Kurland in the Olympics, Russell felt shockingly different because of his quickness.

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Russell and the Future
Okay, I've probably long since lost folks with my meanders, so let me try to tie this back together:

With what I've written so far I think it's clear why Russell would be my pre-Kareem GOAT, but what about Kareem and all the players who came after?

Well, Russell vs Kareem is a great comparison and I completely understand voting for Kareem. Kareem is literally a guy who I'd have given the DPOY to in some years, and I think his scoring impact was far more reliable than Wilt's. Shouldn't that be enough to give him the nod?

Well, when I think about player achievement, I have a tendency to focus on the team success of the player with more team success and ask myself if I think the other player can do better. And the thing is, I don't think Kareem's Celtics could match Russell's Celtics. I think in Kareem you've got someone more like a longer Kurland, whereas in Russell you've got a combination of length & quickness that was basically unheard of at least until Olajuwon.

I could see arguments for coming up with the ideal team with a comparable amount of supporting talent for Kareem being better than those Celtics, but there's really nothing I can imagine that I'd bet on winning 11 titles in 13 years.

Now, you might say, "Well but no one can do that, so Russell is going to be your GOAT forever", but this is where we get into the degree of difficulty of the league. It's not going to take the same title winning percentage to top Russell. What will it take? We'll see. It's not about hitting a particular pre-set threshold. It's a case-by-case comparison. I take both Jordan & LeBron as serious candidates to surpass Russell, and in 2020 I put both ahead of Russell.

But, that was coming from a perspective that was essentially 2020-oriented. Do I think Russell would be the best player in today's game? No. I think that once the shooters in the game got good enough, it decreased how much you could dominate the game as a defender, and that gives offensive stars the edge.

Thing is, it didn't just give Jordan & James the edge. It gives entire types of players the edge, so on what basis did I have Russell at #3? As I reflected, it just became undeniably inconsistent, and if I ran it back again, I'm not sure where Russell would have landed.

I'll admit to this feeling wrong to me, and that feeling influenced me to ruminate, but I do want to be clear that I don't like the idea of changing my criteria so that I can keep a particular player super-high. I suppose though, while I'm fine with Russell not being at the top of my list, the idea of him moving way far down just makes me feel like I'm doing it wrong.

Not that I'm the first person to think this - many, many people have thought I've done things wrong along these lines and criticized my approach as disrespecting the past. In the end though it's not so much about respecting the past being worthy of a particular spot on the list, but of how I want to try to rank guys from the past.

Do I want to try to gauge the Russells of the world primarily based on how they'd fair against a technique that exists because of a rule change that came about after (and because of) them?, or, Do I want to focus on why what they did in their day that was so worth remembering?

Viewed like this, it's the latter.

Back to Jordan & LeBron in comparison to Russell, it's not just that they have less rings, but that they have warts in their careers. Jordan was something of an individualist in a team game whose strengths allowed him to take game by the horns in his prime, but whose attitude had a destructiveness to it that showed itself more late in his career (Washington), but it's not like it wasn't there before. It could have tripped him up more severely in prime, and I feel like it was bound to cause problems as he aged.

LeBron on the other hand has a combination of missed opportunities and tendency to jump ship (or push those around him overboard) that I think has kept his career from reaching the heights of what I really still see as possible in today's game. Maybe I'll look back on this vote in the years to come and think this was naive - maybe no one will top him for decades to come and I'll end up again re-evaluating LeBron and putting back on top, but as things stand, I'm more impressed with what Russell did....


Vote 2: Michael Jordan

So, Jordan & Kareem are the guys I really considered here, and let me say first that I think people have made some great arguments for Kareem not just in this project, but in recent years. I wondered if he'd end up moving past Jordan, and he looks like he's got a good shot.

I'm still going to side with MJ though, and I think to illustrate why I gave LeBron the nod over Jordan, but not Kareem, let's consider this:

Oldest POY age:

LeBron 35
Jordan 34
Kareem 32

While Kareem deserves an edge due to longevity over Jordan, this isn't a situation like it was with LeBron where he literally had the case of being the best in the world at an age beyond Jordan's end-of-prime retirement. At a time when Jordan was still the consensus best player in the world at the end of another 3-peat, Kareem had already been eclipsed.

Now, you can certainly look at Magic's presence being an extenuating factor that shouldn't be held against Kareem, but I don't think we should forget that Jordan was able to maintain his MVP-level prime to an older age than Kareem did.

Now mind you, this alone is not why I picked LeBron over Jordan. Another distinction between LeBron & Kareem for me is what you might call an "inevitability" factor. With LeBron it just seemed he was always able to find a lever by which he could at least carrying his team to somewhere significant, whereas with Kareem there were times where it just felt like teams could mitigate for him. By "mitigate", to be clear, I don't mean they could stop him, but that they could win while letting him get his, because he wasn't the same type of playmaking force as LeBron.

Of course, neither was Jordan, but that gets back to the thing where I'd still give Jordan the nod prime-to-prime over LeBron. The relentlessness of Jordan - his motor, his shooting improvement, the intensity with which he drove his teams - I think it's important to recognize how unusual he was regardless of era.

Nomination: Magic Johnson

Image

Speaking of Magic, he'll be my first Nominee. To tell a bit of my journey here:

When I started on RealGM, I had Magic higher than the Olajuwons/Shaqs/Duncan/KGs. Then I started focusing on two things:

1. Longevity - where Magic's HIV diagnosis forever damaged what he could achieve.

2. Impact - Shaq, Duncan & KG had such high impact, and impact on both sides of the ball, that it was hard to imagine that Magic was enough better to make up for longevity issues.

Also, related to impact, was me consider how lucky Magic was to arrive on the Lakers. Incredible team success to be sure, but to be expect to a degree with that talent around you, right?

On the longevity front, I've walked it back a bit. While I'm still fine using extended longevity as a tiebreaker, I'm generally more focused in what a player can do in 5-10 years, because for the most part that's when a franchise can expect to build a contender with you. And of course, Magic had that. In Magic's 12 years before the HIV retirement, the Lakers had an amount of success that's just plain staggering for any career.

12 years. 12 years 50+ wins. 32 playoff series wins.

For the record, if my count is correct, LeBron himself only has 12 50+ win years (though he does have 41 playoff series victories).

So yeah, Magic packed in so much success into his career, that it's hard to take seriously longevity as that big of concern to me. Tiebreaker at most really.

Of course he had help and I don't want to just elevate the guy because he had more help...but being the star and leader of the team having the most dominant decade run since Russell is not something to be brushed aside lightly. I think we need to be very careful about assuming other guys have a comparable realistic ceiling.

Going back to LeBron, I'll say that watching him through his career has also helped me gain more confidence in Magic's ability to find ways to control the game around him no matter the context or how his body changed. I think Magic had an extremely strong intuition about how to win the arm-wrestling contest of basketball, finding little affordances to gain leverage over time, and I think it's offensive geniuses who in general have this capacity in the modern (and even somewhat-near-modern game).
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #3 (Deadline 7/9 11:59pm) 

Post#16 » by rk2023 » Fri Jul 7, 2023 8:43 pm

Vote for #3 - Michael Jordan:
viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2306301&p=107502597#p107502597

Explained here ^

Vote for #4 - Bill Russell:
Pretty clear-cut for me, I find it hard to argue for anybody left over Jordan or Russ - whom are my 1c/d on Mt. Rushmore with LBJ/KAJ. I’m away from home at the moment and unable to do a deep dive unfortunately. However, there have been many posts highlighting Russell’s greatness - especially Doc & Lou Fan’s 1/2 votes. At a high level, the unparalleled defensive impact speaks for itself. The average value of the Russell era Cs (measured in rDRTG) might stand alongside some of the other top single-season and three-year (for example) team defenses since. When looking at Russell’s value, being the best rebounder in aggregate and having the best defensive total package (instincts akin to Hakeem, anticipation akin to Green/Garnett, court coverage and strides akin to LBJ/Giannis, and vertical ability akin to himself) catalyzed Boston’s team excellence. 70s posted a cool video recently depicting all of this. Furthermore, Ben’s tracking of Russell’s man defense highlighted in his BackPicks greatest career series validates elite impact in thwarting all of the prominent centers in his era. Offensively, the scoring value Russell provided (for his time) more often than not wasn’t adding much. With that said, his passing and connective profile as a big is up there (if not better than) with most of the all-timers in this department. This is coupled with the guess his rebounding value on both ends would add more on the margins offensively - flanked by the potency of “second chance points” and Boston’s ability to play at an extremely fast pace catalyzed by Russell’s rebounding and instant fast-break passing. For an inverted comparison, I see Curry and Magic (both viable Top 9 candidates imo) as other prominent one way forces. Precisely, I believe Russell did the direct opposite of what they did (1) more effectively and (2) for a longer, more consistent span of time.

Nomination - Shaquille O’Neal:
My personal best player available (edging out Magic and Garnett). I don’t think anybody who hasn’t been voted in or nominated in yet was able to hit the high-points in their respective career(s) Shaq has. He left a decent amount on the table at various points - to the point where I’m pretty sure he wouldn’t be top 10 if 2000-02 was around the level of his next best season. However, his instant impact in Orlando (and of course the well known peak level of play during the three-peat) leaves him with a meaningful longevity / peak value good enough to be in the 5-8 tier for me all time with Duncan, Wilt, & Hakeem. I’ll elaborate on each of the four as they gain traction as “next best”. Seems almost certain Jordan/Russell will garner the next two selections.
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #3 (Deadline 7/9 11:59pm) 

Post#17 » by ShaqAttac » Fri Jul 7, 2023 8:55 pm

VOTE
1. BILL RUSSELL
1 Russ, will say more down under
2 Mikan, will say more down under
3 Bron, Nukes every1 but russ n cap in "Impact", crazy longetvity, plays in way better league, apm goes craaazy
4 Cap, Crazzy longetvity, also better in "impact" for his peak than every1 but bron n russ from what im seein, was awesome before he even entereed nba
5. Timmy D, always on a good team, all-time carry job in 03, all-time leadeer who took paycuts to help antonio win, n honestly, was prob the best player of the 2000's, I thought shaq was 1 but i cant argue with da facts.
6. Dream, I know its crazy soundin, but I think he got a good arg here from what im seein. same rs impaact, n went nova in the pos. Eni n KD make really goood points so ill let em d up. basically tho his "impact' In rs is comp and he gets way better in the yoffs. He also carried meh help to b2b chips while MJ literallly only won with an uberduper superteam. Unless im missin sumthn MJ would be the only nom whose never won without a deathsquad.


VOTE BILL RUSSELL
this is p easy. He won 11 rings as the best player by faar and was so good ppl been strugglin hard to come up with any kinda arg against the season when he was bout to retire. Man literally crusshes superteams with bad help n was also the coach. He also was facin craazy comp
ut this doesn't mean anything of itself. For the KD parallel to work, the Celtics need to be great(relative to the comp) without Russell. Nothing suggests this is true beyond the Celtics first few titles(i listed the different stuff in my previous post). Crucially everything we have suggests the opposite was true in 1969, and here the competition is far better than "not weak".

Assuming you are not trying to break era-relativity, here are 3-ways we can look at opposition strength
1. Look at how the teams look relative to the league for the era(bullets and knicks are outliers by srs, Lakers are close)
2. Look at how the comp was relative to the league that season(Celtics beat the best, 2nd best and 4th best opponent they could have had by SRS)
3. Look at how the comp was in surrounding seasons(Knicks SRS doubles en-route to a championship the following year, Bullets and Lakers srs drops but they take the Knicks to 7 and LA win a championship and make 3 finals)

By any of these approaches the Celtics faced an all-time difficult gauntlet and there is absolutely nothing to suggest the Celtics were some stacked super-squad. "Competition" is not a serious argument here. Bill went through just about the hardest possible route, with weak support, in a year where the best teams were unusually good. Not sure how that doesn't get him to a tier 1(era-relative) peak unless you arbitrarily decide to curve 1969 down to what feels reasonable without scaling the other title-winning years up.


Idrg how u can arg against a guy who won way more than every1 and also won with less help. Team went bitw to bad without him when he was supposed to be waashed. If you got him low coz the league sucked i get you. But ppl sayin they era-relative and not havin russ 1 is cap. He only ever lost when hurt and he stay winnin even when his teammates sucked facin the death-star. Ez 1 for me.

2. HAKEEM OLAJUWON

I didnt know whether to go with him or duncan but according to fp, eni, and kds stuff he was actually the best playoff monster of his league and comp to mj and magic in the reg season. MJ was definitely luckier so if Hakeem's "impact" is the same and then > in the playoffs I dont see how i can go with jordan.


Gonna nominate:
MIKAN
I wanna vote MIKAN for 2 but imma keep my vote in case i need to use it for bron.

This is also p simple. He was waay better than everyone else in a waay no one else was, was the best on o and d, and won 7 rings.
DoctorMJ wrote:George Mikan (1924) "Mr. Basketball", 6'10" center, the first true big man, 7 total pro titles with Chicago Gears & Lakers

Image
Origin: Illinois
College: DePaul
Series Wins: 23
All-League 1st Team: 8 times
Star-Prime: 8 seasons
POY wins: 8, POY shares: 8.0
OPOY wins: 3, OPOY shares: 3.8
DPOY wins: 6, DPOY shares: 6.2


The obvious top player from the era so maybe not a ton to be gleaned from going into further detail, but some observations:

- Mikan appears to have been the best offensive player in pro basketball basically from the time he turned pro. Eventually others arrive in the league to top him, but he remains elite until the rule change of 1951 that widened the key from 6 to 12 feet specifically to stop him. From that point onward, while Mikan likely remained the best rebounder in the world, it seems that the rule change did have the desired effect.

- Mikan almost certainly would have been an even more impactful defender from the jump if not for the banning of goaltending. As it was, it seems like it took Mikan some time to re-optimize his defensive play. He had a recurring issue of foul trouble that was often the Achilles heel for his teams win the lost.

- So far as I can tell, Mikan's defensive dominance in the NBA was less about shotblocking and more about rebounding. Certainly the shotblocking threat was there to a degree, but in a league with such weak shooting percentage, rebounding was arguably king.

ik we dont got data, but he won the 2nd most and he was way better than every1 else. Seems like a simple 2 to me.

Hope that was good!
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #3 (Deadline 7/9 11:59pm) 

Post#18 » by ShaqAttac » Fri Jul 7, 2023 8:59 pm

Ambrose wrote:#1 Michael Jordan

To put it simply, I personally think Jordan is flat out better than anyone else left. There may be a run or two from Russell or Duncan or Wilt that look comparable but nothing like Jordan's stretch of combined individual and team dominance. I also don't think he has the dips or red flags the others have. I love data as much as anyone, (not saying data isn't high on Jordan) but sometimes we do use that in place of simply "proving it" and I think putting anyone else other than Jordan here would be an example of that. However, I'm quite on Russell offensively, so I can see why those who view him higher may disagree.

To go back to my stated criteria from a prior thread, I believe the per season title equity Jordan gives you outweighs the longevity advantage of Duncan, and there is no longevity concern against guys like Russell or Wilt. Being the greatest scorer to ever live, who was also postseason resilient, is incredibly valuable, especially when he's also a plus defender, can work off-ball, and playmake for others. I'm curious to see what he would've been able to achieve as a help defender in a different era where they didn't have weird rules, as he had the IQ to accel there as well.

Nominate: Magic Johnson

Do you think Russell had waay more help than MJ then? Because MJ only won with a superteam and 11>6.
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #3 (Deadline 7/9 11:59pm) 

Post#19 » by One_and_Done » Fri Jul 7, 2023 9:26 pm

I'll save the Hakeem rebuttal for next thread, but I'd just suggest people look at his MVP results before 1993 to get a flavour for where he was rated at the time. Anyone suggesting he was better all-time than Bird or Magic in 1992 would have been told he was crazy. People didn't even think he was better than guys like Barkley. I have Hakeem at #7 all-time so I'm not down on him, but for most of his career he was not the calibre of player to be discussed quite yet.

After Hakeem gets in I'll be voting for Curry probably, along with KG and Bird. Then it gets more interesting.
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #3 (Deadline 7/9 11:59pm) 

Post#20 » by Clyde Frazier » Fri Jul 7, 2023 9:37 pm

Vote 1 - Michael Jordan
Vote 2 - Bill Russell
Nominate - Magic Johnson


As more and more seasons pass and the game evolves, it makes sense that Jordan’s assumed status as GOAT would be tested. I'm sticking with him here, but the decision between Kareem and LeBron for #2 has become tougher. While I'm generally a longevity guy, if I feel the body of work is impressive enough without elite longevity (jordan, magic, bird, now curry) they become the exception to the rule. To be clear, I'm not downplaying Lebron's consecutive finals runs just because he lost in some of them.

Jordan came into the league and had an immediate impact both statistically and team improvement: 28.2 PPG, 6.5 RPG, 5.9 APG, 2.4 SPG, .8 BPG, 59.2% TS, 118 ORTG, .213 WS/48, 27 wins to 38, 23rd in SRS to 14th. Few players produce at an all NBA level right out of the gate, so you knew you had something special in jordan.

The things that stuck out with jordan early in his career was the speed in the open floor, amazing body control in the lane, and of course his overall elite athleticism. However, even at a young age he seemed in control of that skill and continued to hone it with an inside out game, always keeping the defense on their toes.

Taking a look at jordan’s deep playoff runs pre-championship, it was really his teammates who didn’t provide enough support to get over the hump against the pistons.

ECF vs. DET in '89 (6 games): http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1989-nba-eastern-conference-finals-bulls-vs-pistons.html

ECF vs. DET in '90 (7 games): http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1990-nba-eastern-conference-finals-bulls-vs-pistons.html

Jordan was excellent in both series as the main focal point of the defense. As we look at Jordan’s first 3 title runs, he faced formidable opponents in all 3 series, where the lakers, blazers and suns ranked 3rd, 2nd and 3rd in SRS respectively. Jordan continued his elite production (taking it to another level). Be it a great look off penetration to a shooter, a key defensive stop, or a bucket when you needed it most, he had the entire package.

'91 Finals: http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1991-nba-finals-lakers-vs-bulls.html

'92 Finals: http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1992-nba-finals-trail-blazers-vs-bulls.html

'93 Finals: http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1993-nba-finals-bulls-vs-suns.html

Of course, this coincided with his teammates stepping up as well, which is what a superstar ultimately needs to win a championship in this league, even if they’re doing the bulk of the scoring.

People like to claim we don't acknowledge jordan losing to the magic in '95 in his comeback season. Of course we can acknowledge it, under the context that it'd be more significant if he had played a full season instead of 17 games after not playing for over a season. Pointing to him putting up some gaudy numbers here and there in that period doesn't change that.

I do think the fact that he returned to form and even changed his game to still be effective as he aged was rather impressive. The second 3 peat had to take a toll on his body, playing in all 82 games each of those 3 seasons at 38.1 MPG, increasing to 41.5 MPG in the playoffs. While his efficiency dipped somewhat vs. his 1st 3 peat, his overall production was still stellar.

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