RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #3 (Michael Jordan)

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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #3 (Deadline 7/9 11:59pm) 

Post#21 » by penbeast0 » Fri Jul 7, 2023 9:40 pm

I'm going to cut and paste my post from the last vote here because nothing has changed.

Vote #1: quoting Doctor MJ

Spoiler:
Vote 1: Bill Russell

Image

The Great Rivals
Alright, Imma take a bit of a journey here, and I'll give the trigger warning that Wilt Chamberlain will loom large here, and will be criticized. I don't do this because I hate Wilt, but because Wilt was always seen as the GOAT basketball talent, and the standard by which others were judged. Even Russell himself came to be re-defined as a contrast to Wilt in a way that was very different from how he was perceived originally - which I might say could have been called a Goliath-type.

So, I think that probably the most important specific comparison to understand when doing historical basketball GOATs is Russell vs Wilt. We get all sorts of stories past down about this comparison, and all savvy young skeptics find the following point resonant:

It's a team game, so if one star seems to be doing a lot more than the other but his team is losing, maybe it's because it's a TEAM GAME! It doesn't help when you hear arguments that start throwing around words like 'loser' to describe a guy whose teams did a lot more winning than losing. There's no doubt that winning-bias type arguments have been used for forever to argue for Russell over Wilt. Sufficed to say then, when I came to RealGM as a more-informed-than-most basketball fan, I ranked Wilt ahead of Russell.

As I dove deeper into the past however, a few things really shaped my perspective and swung me to the other side:

1. The fact that all through this time period it seems that defensive impact was possible to a considerably greater extent than offensive impact. This is something that by itself might be more of an argument for Russell over Oscar & West than Wilt. Simply put, in a world where offensive impact is more possible than defensive, which is where I think we tend to start by default, there are really good reasons to think that not just Wilt but other players were more deserving of MVPs than Russell.

When you realize that defense truly was king back then, then at least in-era, you lose a lot of that reason to be skeptical about Russell. When you watch a pitcher in baseball or a goalie in hockey seemingly shutdown the opposing offense, you have no qualms about calling that player the MVP of that game even if that guy couldn't be expected to hit homers or skate with grace. And to extent, the data told me that basketball in that era was somewhat analogous.

This alone didn't put Russell ahead of Wilt though, because Wilt was also capable of massive defensive impact, and Wilt was about as good of an offensive player as they come, right? I mean, even if we grant Russell the edge on defense, can it really make up for Wilt scoring 20-30 more points than Russell?

2. The incredible success of the '66-67 76ers, where Wilt was less of a scorer, and yet the team took a massive leap forward on offense.

This is where going through year-by-year and thinking about why the people involved made the decisions they made ended up having a profound impact on me. If Wilt is the greatest scorer of the age, then why would any coach come in and tell Wilt to shoot MUCH less? Well and good to say to say that changing the approach allowed for Wilt to have facilitator's impact on his teammate, but that implies that it was a choice between Shooter Wilt and Passer Wilt, and Passer Wilt was just better (at least for the context in question). From there you actually got people saying Wilt was the GOAT scorer and even better as a passer, which just doesn't make a lot of sense.

At the heart of the issue is that in the end shooting and passing are decisions that a player makes in the moment, and the expectation has always been that a player will need to do both, and thus is on the hook for deciding which move is best each and every moment. And so if a player gets incrementally better players around him, he should be a smidge less likely to shoot and more likely to pass.

So what does it say when a coach comes in and afterward a player becomes MUCH less likely to shoot and MUCH more likely to pass? That it's not really about the change in teammates, but the change to a kind of default setting. A "default setting" that really should be as close to undetectable as possible if you're reacting to what the defense gives you.

And if you're that new coach and you have any sort of common sense at all, you don't do this to any star just for the heck of it, let alone the most celebrated scorer in the history of the sport. You would only do it if you saw a problem and were so confident in what you say that you were willing to risk becoming a laughing stock for all time. And make no mistake, had Alex Hannum's new scheme backfired, that's what he would have been. When you question conventional wisdom and conventional wisdom proves correct, you generally look like a fool. When you do that in your career on something big enough to always be the first thing people remember about you, it's often a career killer.

So then I think the most important question for folks to answer about '66-67, is: What did Hannum see? So long as you take this part very seriously as essential to evaluation of Wilt, I respect others coming to different conclusions.

Way back in the day when I was doing the blogging thing I wrote a post that's probably (hopefully?) still worth reading:

Chamberlain Theory: The Real Price of Anarchy in Basketball

Which led to this general takeaway about basketball:

There is more to judging the effectiveness of a scorer, or a player in general, than simply his most obvious related statistics, and pursuit of those obvious statistics without proper awareness for the rest of the court can erase most if not all of a scorer’s positive impact, even when those obvious statistics are as great as any in all of history.

Interestingly as I read this now I think about something I wasn't aware of back then: Goodhart's Law

Any observed statistical regularity will tend to collapse once pressure is placed upon it for control purposes.

Often paraphrased (and simplified) as

When the measure becomes the target, it ceases to be a good measure.

Anyway, getting back to Russell vs Wilt, while previously I had been in a camp that might have said something like "I believe you that Russell had an edge on defense even above Wilt, but I can't fathom it was enough to make up for Wilt's 50 to 18 PPG scoring advantage", that became a lot harder to be skeptical of when I had to admit to myself that I believe that 24 PPG Wilt was actually more effective than 50 PPG Wilt.

Once I got past that statistical hang up, believing that Russell was often more valuable than Wilt seemed actually plausible.

3. I do think something that just needs to be acknowledged is that this notion of winning as many titles as possible to become the GOAT just wasn't the same thing back then, and it really wasn't the same for someone like Wilt who understandably saw basketball as just one source of public success. "Bigger than the game" makes it sound like it's about ego, but in the deeper past top athletes would jump from sport to sport to the movies to the recording studio wherever attention and fortune availed.

In some ways, that's always been true and is true now...but the difference is that someone like LeBron knows that the more he achieves through his years in the NBA, the bigger his reach after he retires. Literally this wasn't even true for Wilt. Winning a title was important...but from there to him it didn't follow that he should milk the success to achieve a dynasty. To him, it made financial sense to get himself to Hollywood. (Noteworthy that LeBron is in Hollywood now too...but he didn't come until after he was convinced he couldn't win more where he was.)

All this to say then that in some ways the entire basis of this project is "unfair" to Wilt in a way that the Peak project is not. He really wasn't trying to "max out" his NBA career the way guys do now, and the NBA-centered nature of this project then ends up effectively penalizing Wilt for this.

This pertains to why I tend to emphasize that there are myriad different ways to rank these guys, and a difference in spot lit criteria in a project such as this can easily lead to one thinking that someone else completely denies the greatness of a guy simply because a particular criteria ends up casting a smaller shadow than another angle would.

Russell on the Regular
Okay, let me continue on this point but widen out the gaze a bit:

While Wilt's tendency to stargaze is a completely understandable thing that just happens to penalize him under Career Achievement criteria, there is also the matter that it's really, really hard to keep beating all comers again and again and again the way Russell and the Celtics did. There's a certain joy in repetition that you need from this. It's not about winning the 11th title, it's about the process of proving yourself every day. It's about self-discipline, and in a team sport, working well with teammates on and off the court. If you don't have all those things, you're either going to run out of gas a lot sooner, or you're going to rip yourselves apart.

While I'm not going to say that Bill Russell is the only player with the mindset who could have put his team on his back to the top so regularly for so long, I think it speaks to a powerful capability where we all exist on a spectrum of greater and lesser ability to do it. I see many, many other stars who I think clearly don't have what it takes, and frankly I don't think I could have done it had I had Russell's body. I think it's important to recognize that this in and of itself is part of what makes Russell so special.

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Russell the Defensive Archetype
Alright, so far I've alluded to Russell's defensive greatness but I haven't really drilled down. I'm going to point to another blog post I wrote, this at the end of that experiment:

Searching for Bill Russell ~ Starring Anthony Davis (2012)

The context here was my excitement over Anthony Davis as a prospect, which makes it interesting to look back on in its own right, but I bring it up here for the same reason why I was focused on finding a new Russell at the time: I see Russell as essentially the ideal build for a defensive player.

As stunningly agile as he was for his size, Chamberlain still could not compare with Russell in this regard. He had various clear advantages to Russell (strength, and likely fine motor skills come to mind), but the agility gap meant that there were simply things Russell could do than Chamberlain couldn’t. From Bill Russell: A Biography:

Bill understood that Wilt’s game was more vertical, that is, from the floor to the basket. Wilt’s game was one of strength and power…Bill’s game was built on finesse and speed, what he called a horizontal game, as he moved back and forth across the court blocking shots, running the floor, and playing team defense.

Russell’s quickness, along with instincts and superb leaping ability, meant that Russell could cast a larger shadow on the defensive side of the court. He could run out to challenge perimeter shooting, and recover quickly enough that he wouldn’t let his team get burned. That ability to have more global impact, and his sense to use it wisely, made him a more valuable defensive player than Chamberlain could ever be.


That you'd want length has always been a thing that's clear in basketball, but it's not necessarily obvious that a more lithe frame is better than a thicker one. Strength has its advantages too after all, and if basketball were a merely one-on-one sport where one guy just backed the other guy down, thicker would be better.

But it's a team game on an open field. It's a game of horizontal space, as is alluded to in the quote, and that's where Russell's unique combination of strengths gave him immense benefit.

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Russell the Revolutionary
Now, this is a project that isn't about things like influence, and so a player being a spearhead doesn't necessarily help his case. Nonetheless, I think it's important to understand how Russell became what he became.

Russell was not a star in high school. Not because of an ultra-late growth spurt. Not because of racism. Why? A few things:

First, he played at California-state-champion type high school (McClymonds). There was extreme talent on the team, and as a result Russell didn't come of age with everything built toward making use of him. He came of age fitting in with other talents.

But I don't mean to imply that Russell was the secret MVP of those high school team with his teammates getting all the scoring glory. There's absolutely nothing to indicate that he was THAT good at the time, and when Russell describes his journey, he makes clear that the place where he really found his way in basketball was not in high school, but on a traveling all-star team he happened to join after high school.

Why do I say "happened"? As he describes it, the traveling all-star team was launched in the middle of the school year, but because Russell was a "splitter" who graduated on an earlier track, and he was the only senior on the team for whom this is true, when the all-star team came looking to add a McClymonds player to their roster, Russell was the only choice available.

And so it happened that Russell ended up spending months after his high school career riding on a bus from town to town playing basketball without any active coaching, and something funny occurred:

From "Second Wind" by Bill Russell
Within a week after the All-Star tour began, something happened that opened my eyes and chilled my spine…Every time one of them would make one of the moves I liked, I’d close my eyes just afterward and try to see the play in my mind. In other words, I’d try to create an instant replay on the inside of my eyelids.

“On this particular night I was working on replays of many plays, including McKelvey’s way of taking an offensive rebound and moving quickly to the hoop. It’s a fairly simple play for any big man in basketball, but I didn’t execute it well and McKelvey did. Since I had an accurate version of his technique in my head, I started playing with the image right there on the bench, running back the picture several times and each time inserting a part of me for McKelvey. Finally I saw myself making the whole move, and I ran this over and over, too. When I went into the game, I grabbed an offensive rebound and put it in the basket just the way McKelvey did. It seemed natural, almost as if I were just stepping into a film and following the signs.”

“For the rest of the trip I was nearly possessed by basketball. I was having so much fun that I was sorry to see each day end, and I wanted the nights to race by so that the next day could start. The long rides on the bus never bothered me. I talked basketball incessantly, and when I wasn’t talking I was sitting there with my eyes closed, watching plays in my head. I was in my own private basketball laboratory, making blueprints for myself.


Russell began this process of watching basketball in his head as an active participant, and soon began focusing less on trying to do what he saw other guys do, and instead how to defend against those guys. And then he started revolutionizing basketball right there with his eyes closed - not that he knew that then - what he knew is that he came back from the tour a much, much better basketball player.

Now, before we buy in entirely to the idea that Russell was a scrub in high school, I mean, the man did get a scholarship offer to play for the University of San Francisco (USF). Not a powerhouse program, but that doesn't mean they just hand out scholarships to anybody. Russell says that the USF scout had happened to see him play a particularly good game in high school, I'll let you decide how much of this is false modesty.

The cool thing though at USF is that since freshman couldn't play on the Varsity team, he basically got another year developing before having to fit in with stars under a coach. And in that year, he met KC Jones, and the two of them basically went Einstein on the game:

“We decided that basketball is basically a game of geometry –of lines, points and distances–and that the horizontal distances are more important than the vertical ones.”

“KC and I spent hours exploring the geometry of basketball, often losing track of the time. Neither of us needed a blackboard to see the play the other was describing…It was as if I was back on the Greyhound, assembling pictures of moves in my mind, except that KC liked to talk about what combinations of players could do. I had been daydreaming about solo moves, but he liked to work out strategies. KC has an original basketball mind, and he taught me how to scheme to make things happen on the court, particularly on defense…He was always figuring out ways to make the opponent take the shot he wanted him to take when he wanted him to take it, from the place he wanted the man to shoot.”

“Gradually, KC and I created a little basketball world of our own. Other players were lost in our conversations because we used so much shorthand that no one could follow what we were saying. Most of the players weren’t interested in strategy anyway.”


The pair would soon take the college basketball world by storm, and take USF to the big time and back-to-back NCAA championships.

I'd note here in Russell you have an example of someone with an incredibly active basketball imagination once it got turned on - which of course didn't happen until he had time AWAY from coaches - but it's not that I'm saying that his talent on this front was one-of-a-kind and that that was his truly greatest strength. Russell was unusual in such talent surely, but really it was him getting into certain types strategic habits with the reinforcement of a similar mind that caused something of an exponential curve. And of course, the application of that curve was on Russell's body, which was a far greater body talent than what Jones possessed.

I also think Russell elaborate on the horizontal game tellingly in this quote but unfortunately I'm not sure which book it was from:

Beginning in my freshman year, I developed the concept of horizontal and vertical games. I made a distinction between the two that others had not done. The horizontal game meant how I played side to side. The vertical game was how I played up and down. I knew that if I could integrate the two games, our team could win. I would always be in a position to determine where the ball was and where it was going.

What I saw was how much more there was to the game than that. I would lie awake at night and play with numbers. How much time was there in an NBA game? Forty-eight minutes. How many shots were taken in a game? Maybe a hundred and sixty, eighty or so on each side. I calculated the number of seconds each shot took—a second, a second and a half—and then I multiplied by a hundred. Two hundred forty seconds at most—or four minutes. Then add a single extra second for a foul shot missed and then the ball put in play; add another minute at the most. So, five minutes out of forty-eight are actually taken up in the vertical game.


What I'm hoping you're getting a picture of is a young man who started thinking for himself about how he could best help his team win at basketball.

From an innovator's perspective, this is what would put Russell at the very top of my list of all basketball players in history. This archetype of the horizontal & vertical force who intimidated shots like nobody's business but who relied on non-vertical agility to do a whole bunch of other things that were valuable, Russell basically invented it. Not saying no one before had ever done anything like it, but it wasn't what was being taught by coaches.

In Russell's words:

On defense it was considered even worse to leave your feet…The idea was for the defensive player to keep himself between his man and the basket at all times. Prevent lay-ups, keep control, stay on your feet. By jumping you were simply telegraphing to your opponent that you could be faked into the air. Defenses had not begun to adjust to the jump shot.


Russell would be the one, then, who would make that adjustment and have the world take notice, and only after he did that did the coaches begin coaching players to do Russell-type things.

Note: As I say this you might be thinking that this can't be true because of the arrival of the Big Man in the '40s with George Mikan and Bob Kurland to college basketball. Some things to note:

Quickly after the arrival of those players, goaltending was introduced as a rule. Had it not, then certainly at-the-rim shot-blocking would have quickly become THE way to play defense.

So what Russell's talking about isn't the ability to get your hand considerably higher than the rim, but about aggressively blocking shots on the way up, and not just for your man, but from anybody on the other team, which wasn't seen as a realistic option until Russell.

Caveat: A distinction must be made between Kurland & Mikan. Kurland was the true mega-shot-blocker, not Mikan. As such, it's possible that Russell would have grown up in a different landscape had Kurland chosen to play pro ball.

With that said, Kurland was the the big man star of the US Olympic teams in their '48 & '52 gold medals, and Russell was the star of the '56 team. From what I've read, even for players used to getting beat by Kurland in the Olympics, Russell felt shockingly different because of his quickness.

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Russell and the Future
Okay, I've probably long since lost folks with my meanders, so let me try to tie this back together:

With what I've written so far I think it's clear why Russell would be my pre-Kareem GOAT, but what about Kareem and all the players who came after?

Well, Russell vs Kareem is a great comparison and I completely understand voting for Kareem. Kareem is literally a guy who I'd have given the DPOY to in some years, and I think his scoring impact was far more reliable than Wilt's. Shouldn't that be enough to give him the nod?

Well, when I think about player achievement, I have a tendency to focus on the team success of the player with more team success and ask myself if I think the other player can do better. And the thing is, I don't think Kareem's Celtics could match Russell's Celtics. I think in Kareem you've got someone more like a longer Kurland, whereas in Russell you've got a combination of length & quickness that was basically unheard of at least until Olajuwon.

I could see arguments for coming up with the ideal team with a comparable amount of supporting talent for Kareem being better than those Celtics, but there's really nothing I can imagine that I'd bet on winning 11 titles in 13 years.

Now, you might say, "Well but no one can do that, so Russell is going to be your GOAT forever", but this is where we get into the degree of difficulty of the league. It's not going to take the same title winning percentage to top Russell. What will it take? We'll see. It's not about hitting a particular pre-set threshold. It's a case-by-case comparison. I take both Jordan & LeBron as serious candidates to surpass Russell, and in 2020 I put both ahead of Russell.

But, that was coming from a perspective that was essentially 2020-oriented. Do I think Russell would be the best player in today's game? No. I think that once the shooters in the game got good enough, it decreased how much you could dominate the game as a defender, and that gives offensive stars the edge.

Thing is, it didn't just give Jordan & James the edge. It gives entire types of players the edge, so on what basis did I have Russell at #3? As I reflected, it just became undeniably inconsistent, and if I ran it back again, I'm not sure where Russell would have landed.

I'll admit to this feeling wrong to me, and that feeling influenced me to ruminate, but I do want to be clear that I don't like the idea of changing my criteria so that I can keep a particular player super-high. I suppose though, while I'm fine with Russell not being at the top of my list, the idea of him moving way far down just makes me feel like I'm doing it wrong.

Not that I'm the first person to think this - many, many people have thought I've done things wrong along these lines and criticized my approach as disrespecting the past. In the end though it's not so much about respecting the past being worthy of a particular spot on the list, but of how I want to try to rank guys from the past.

Do I want to try to gauge the Russells of the world primarily based on how they'd fair against a technique that exists because of a rule change that came about after (and because of) them?, or, Do I want to focus on why what they did in their day that was so worth remembering?

Viewed like this, it's the latter.

Back to Jordan & LeBron in comparison to Russell, it's not just that they have less rings, but that they have warts in their careers. Jordan was something of an individualist in a team game whose strengths allowed him to take game by the horns in his prime, but whose attitude had a destructiveness to it that showed itself more late in his career (Washington), but it's not like it wasn't there before. It could have tripped him up more severely in prime, and I feel like it was bound to cause problems as he aged.

LeBron on the other hand has a combination of missed opportunities and tendency to jump ship (or push those around him overboard) that I think has kept his career from reaching the heights of what I really still see as possible in today's game. Maybe I'll look back on this vote in the years to come and think this was naive - maybe no one will top him for decades to come and I'll end up again re-evaluating LeBron and putting back on top, but as things stand, I'm more impressed with what Russell did....


To answer some specific doubts about Russell:

(1) His defensive dominance while turning over the entire roster was incredible. The degree of separation between the Celtic defenses and the rest of the league in an average Russell year is the equivalent of peak Hakeem or peak Garnett defenses. And he maintained that defensive dominance for well over a decade! I don't care whether a player dominates with scoring like Jordan, passing like Magic, or any other measure, to me it's about era dominance tempered by era strength.
(2) The issue of era strength for the 60s. I have the 60s above the 70s and roughly equal to the 80s mainly due to dilution from expansion. A bit behind the 90s, and significantly behind the last decade since the pace and space revolution because of the influx of great international talent hugely expanded the player pool. Why do I not think the 60s were behind the 70s and 80s? This time I will quote myself:

Spoiler:
I would tend to agree on the problems of load management and stars missing so many games due to protocols though with the expectation that this becomes less of a problem and and 2020s will end up being stronger than the 2010s. But I don't think it's there yet.

2010s
2020s
. . .
2000s
. . .
1990s the trend toward isolation offense led to some flashy star seasons but were not productive to developing good, well rounded, basketball players pushing one-on-one skills more than most decades. The beginning of the great international migration is in this era but they aren't making the kind of impact they have in the upcoming century.

1980s/1960s -- the 80s were the era of the superteams with expansion still wrecking havoc on the lower half of the league. European stars were not yet making much impact. I would say the early 1960s concentrated so much talent into so few teams that top to bottom, the average team was stronger than the early 80s despite the Celtic domination. I would say the second half of the 80s overcame this concentration effect (and the late 60s started the expansion era) and were stronger than the 60s.
. . .
The 1970s were massively weakened by expansion but that wasn't the only factor weakening play. Player mobility, jumping leagues or threatening to jump leagues, created a situation where more players seemed to be playing for the contract and this was exacerbated by the epidemic of cocaine use. On the flip side of this issue, PEDs (particularly steroids) and the much wider use of weight work and stretching contributed to much more athletic players and a less ground bound style of play. In the 60s, it was basically just a few superstars who were dunking (like 3 point shooting in the 80s/90s), by the mid 70s, it was the norm rather than the exception.
...
The slow integration of the league weakened the player pool. Stars were getting drafted into military service. And stylistically, there were still players using the two handed set shot and the running hook as their go to moves with leaguewide a lot of missed shots and slower stronger bigger bodies to wrestle around underneath the basket for all those rebounds.


Vote #2: The next vote for me is between Wilt and MJ. I don't see Duncan or Hakeem dominating to the extent that Russell did, or Jordan did, or for that matter, Wilt did, and I won't be looking at them until the debate for #5. Nor is the modern era enough of a sweetener for Duncan to make up for Russell's incredible ability to create a winning team unlike anyone else in NBA history. I have been voting MJ in the last couple of these GOAT lists and he's hard to pick against combing individual brilliance and team success. I do think Wilt was the more dominant player at his best but not as consistent while Kareem had more meaningful longevity. However, I'm afraid I have to vote for Jordan next.

Jordan gets knocked by me for being such a jerk to his teammates, picking fights and belittling them in the press. He has always gotten a pass on this because he won anyway but as time passes, I wonder if there were more than 2 or 3 coaches in NBA history who could have gotten him to take on a less on-ball role and gotten his teammates to buy in. He was fortunate that he had the GOAT coach (in my opinion) in Phil Jackson to mitigate his toxic personality issues.

Wilt also had personality issues that got in the way of his basketball success. He notoriously didn't even live in Philly, commuting down from New York, and was one of those "I won, we lost" type of players at time. To be fair, his teammates did have a history of letting him down through injury and poor play and his coaching (unlike most of the other top players) was erratic over his career. People point to his significantly lower playoff scoring averages in his high scoring days, but his rebounding went up and other teams keyed on him even more in the playoffs. His playoff series win % against everyone but Bill Russell was higher than that of Jordan.

So, tried to talk myself into voting for Wilt but I'm afraid I've failed. He never seemed to have an instinctual feel for how to win, intellectualizing it instead, and despite being the most incredible individual player in NBA history, I still end up going with Jordan.

Nominate: There may be players that I vote for who are nominated yet before this player but off all the players left, he's the one that I think has the best case for top 5 of all time. Just that that case, while compelling in its strengths, has massive flaws. I am nominating George Mikan. Next to Russell, he dominated his era like no other player just that that era was the weakest era of NBA history thanks to the minor league impact of the early league combined with the still continuing exclusion of great black players despite the league formally integrating very early.
“Most people use statistics like a drunk man uses a lamppost; more for support than illumination,” Andrew Lang.
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #3 (Deadline 7/9 11:59pm) 

Post#22 » by 70sFan » Fri Jul 7, 2023 9:45 pm

One_and_Done wrote:I'll save the Hakeem rebuttal for next thread, but I'd just suggest people look at his MVP results before 1993 to get a flavour for where he was rated at the time. Anyone suggesting he was better all-time than Bird or Magic in 1992 would have been told he was crazy. People didn't even think he was better than guys like Barkley. I have Hakeem at #7 all-time so I'm not down on him, but for most of his career he was not the calibre of player to be discussed quite yet.

After Hakeem gets in I'll be voting for Curry probably, along with KG and Bird. Then it gets more interesting.

It could be an evidence that Hakeem magically became an all-time great player in his 30s... or that people didn't pay attention to a small market team with no media coverage and lack of postseason success.

If anyone honestly believe that Hakeem wasn't MVP caliber player in the late 1980s, I suggest rewatching a few random Houston games from that era and pay attention to his defensive effort, because it was nothing short of incredible what he was capable of during that time.
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #3 (Deadline 7/9 11:59pm) 

Post#23 » by LukaTheGOAT » Fri Jul 7, 2023 10:03 pm

One_and_Done wrote:I'll save the Hakeem rebuttal for next thread, but I'd just suggest people look at his MVP results before 1993 to get a flavour for where he was rated at the time. Anyone suggesting he was better all-time than Bird or Magic in 1992 would have been told he was crazy. People didn't even think he was better than guys like Barkley. I have Hakeem at #7 all-time so I'm not down on him, but for most of his career he was not the calibre of player to be discussed quite yet.

After Hakeem gets in I'll be voting for Curry probably, along with KG and Bird. Then it gets more interesting.


A big reason he wouldn't have been consider better than them all-time is because he wouldn't even have a decade of play under his belt by 92 unlike Bird and Magic.

Voting results for MVP are heavily influenced by team success and his defense was probably underrated some years (see 1988).
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #3 (Deadline 7/9 11:59pm) 

Post#24 » by lessthanjake » Fri Jul 7, 2023 10:37 pm

VOTE FOR #3: Michael Jordan

VOTE FOR #4: Bill Russell

Nomination: Stephen Curry

Case for Michael Jordan

My explanations on Michael Jordan have been all over the last two threads, so I won’t really go into as much detail as I could and would refer people to discussions in the prior threads. Basically, I think Jordan’s record of consistently being the best player on either team in the Bulls’ playoff series, during a career where he won 6 titles is unmatched. He’s dominant in box stats, he led super dominant teams, no one ever outshone him in the playoffs, and for what it’s worth (which isn’t a whole lot, since the data is limited) the impact measures we do have for him signal quite well (RAPM data we have for him for single seasons, single playoffs, or snippets of seasons usually having him #1 in the league, often by a significant margin).

The arguments against him in the prior threads focus a lot on the Bulls doing pretty well without him in 1994, but even there we’re still ultimately talking about a 2.87 SRS team that beat a completely injury-ravaged team in the first round of the playoffs and then lost a close series against a very good team. Even if we ignore the lingering value of that team having learned how to win from their prior years with Jordan, and leave aside the fact that missing a star player for a whole season is entirely different from missing a player for random periods due to injury (the latter will be a situation where the team is not as able to adapt to the player’s absence), the reality is that the 1993-1994 season in no way backs the idea that the Bulls were a contender without Jordan. They were 11th in SRS (maybe a bit higher just while healthy, but we’re comparing to the rest of the league’s numbers and other teams weren’t always healthy either). And the only playoff series they won was against a team that was completely ravaged by injury (the Cavs missing Brad Daugherty, Larry Nance, and Hot Rod Williams). They also managed to play the Knicks very close—which was pretty good, because the Knicks were a genuinely good team—but being 11th in SRS, winning a gimme-putt playoff series, and then losing a 7-game series is not the picture of a real contender, and nor were they understood to be serious contenders at the time. Meanwhile, with Jordan, the team had been an absolute buzzsaw (and would become one again afterwards). The lift between pretty good team and historic buzzsaw is extremely significant and extremely impressive—particularly when we realize that Jordan was always the unequivocal best player on those teams (and better than anyone on their playoff opponents’ teams too). Ultimately, focusing on just how bad or good a player’s team was in games or seasons without them is missing the forest for the trees at this point. Michael Jordan was essentially always the best player on the court in every playoff series, and his team was extremely dominant for a substantial period of time while he did so. It’s a case of individual dominance that is unmatched.

Bill Russell

My secondary vote goes to Bill Russell. To be honest, I have a large range for where Bill Russell could go, because I’m not always sure what to do with him. I do discount things from Russell’s era a bit—particularly the early stages of it—because I do not think the competition was as strong as it later became in the 1980s and beyond. Professional basketball just objectively was in a pretty nascent stage at the time, and I do think that that needs to be recognized to at least some degree here. I do also think we need to understand that the context of those 11 titles is one where he was usually only needing to win two playoffs series’, and one of them was typically against a mediocre team (as you’d expect in the semifinals of an 8 or 9 team league). It’s easier to win with fewer hurdles. Russell’s offense was undeniably weak by the standards of players that would be considered here. The eye test on Russell is also not super convincing to me. And he was undeniably fortunate to play with a lot of amazing teammates, and for an organization that was actually competent (in a nascent era of the league where many organizations were just disasters). That said, winning 11 titles as the team’s major lynchpin (particularly on defense—which is what the team most excelled in those years, and in an era where individual defense from a big man was probably even more important) is still incredible. Even if we recognize that it’s substantially easier to do that in that era with a weaker league and fewer playoff rounds, 11 titles is just such a gargantuan achievement that I don’t think I can hold off on voting for Russell beyond 4th.

Nomination of Steph Curry

He does not make my top 4, but I want to nominate Steph Curry—who I think needs to start being discussed soon in this project.

What strikes me about Steph is to look at the #1 vote in this project, which was overwhelmingly for LeBron James. There were many reasons LeBron got those votes, but one major rationale consistently mentioned was LeBron’s dominance of advanced statistics in the data-ball era. And I think it’s important for us to recognize that prime Steph Curry actually outshined LeBron James in this regard. Some examples:

Steph Curry’s Five-Year RAPM ranking - NBAshotcharts

- 2011-2016: 3rd
- 2012-2017: 3rd
- 2013-2018: 1st
- 2014-2019: 1st
- 2015-2020: 1st
- 2016-2021: 1st
- 2017-2022: 1st
- 2018-2023: 5th

This is clearly dominant from Steph. In reference to #1 all time LeBron, Steph is above LeBron in this RAPM measure for every time period starting with 2013-2018 (and is barely below in the first two time periods).

Steph Curry’s Regular-Season RAPM - Basketball-Analytics.Gitlab

- 2013-2014: 7th
- 2014-2015: 3rd
- 2015-2016: 2nd
- 2016-2017: 1st
- 2017-2018: 1st
- 2018-2019: 3rd

Again, incredible performance in this measure from Steph. For reference again, he is ahead of LeBron every single one of those years (the measure doesn’t go past 2018-2019).

Steph Curry’s Playoffs RAPM - Basketball-Analytics.Gitlab

- 2013-2014: 58th
- 2014-2015: 2nd
- 2015-2016: 9th
- 2016-2017: 1st
- 2017-2018: 3rd
- 2018-2019: 7th

This is really great from Steph, and, again, he is ahead of LeBron in all but two of those playoffs (2013-2014 and 2015-2016).

Steph Curry’s Real-Plus-Minus

- 2013-2014: 2nd
- 2014-2015: 1st
- 2015-2016: 1st
- 2016-2017: 1st
- 2017-2018: 2nd
- 2018-2019: 1st
- 2019-2020: N/A
- 2020-2021: 1st
- 2021-2022: 3rd
- 2022-2023: 29th

Not my favorite stat, but Steph Curry is dominant again, and is ahead of LeBron every year but one (ironically, 2022-2023). And, even just leaving aside looking at the years of Steph’s prime, if you look at their entire careers and weight their RPM each year by the minutes they played and then take out their rookie seasons (the one year where they both had negative RPM scores), Steph has a higher career average RPM than LeBron (6.92 for Steph vs. 6.87 for LeBron).

Steph Curry’s RAPTOR (Regular Season + Playoffs)

- 2013-2014: 2nd
- 2014-2015: 1st
- 2015-2016: 1st
- 2016-2017: 2nd
- 2017-2018: 4th
- 2018-2019: 4th
- 2019-2020: N/A
- 2020-2021: 6th
- 2021-2022: 5th
- 2022-2023: 7th

This is extremely consistently high performance, and Steph was above LeBron in RAPTOR every one of those seasons (except 2019-2020, which Steph missed). And if you weight the RAPTOR score each season by minutes played, Curry’s average RAPTOR score in this time period was over 40% higher than LeBron’s average RAPTOR score (8.68 for Curry vs. 6.18 for LeBron). Indeed, LeBron did not have any year with as high a RAPTOR as Steph Curry’s *average*.

Steph Curry’s RAPTOR (just Playoffs)

- 2013-2014: 3rd
- 2014-2015: 8th
- 2015-2016: 18th
- 2016-2017: 3rd
- 2017-2018: 9th
- 2018-2019: 14th
- 2019-2020: N/A
- 2020-2021: N/A
- 2021-2022: 6th
- 2022-2023: 16th

This is really consistent performance when dealing with a low sample size of the playoffs (so a very noisy stat). Even in the playoffs, Steph is above LeBron every one of those years except 2015-2016. If you do a weighted-average by minutes played, LeBron actually comes out ahead, but they’re essentially equal (8.4 for LeBron vs. 8.3 for Steph).

Steph Curry’s LEBRON score

- 2013-2014: 3rd
- 2014-2015: 1st
- 2015-2016: 2nd
- 2016-2017: 1st
- 2017-2018: 2nd
- 2018-2019: 7th
- 2019-2020: N/A
- 2020-2021: 7th
- 2021-2022: 6th
- 2022-2023: 17th

Again, this is consistently great, and for reference he is above LeBron in 6 of the 9 seasons here where he played. His minutes-weighted average in this time period is also higher than LeBron’s, though they’re essentially equal if you narrow down LeBron’s relevant time period to end at 2020-2021.

Steph Curry’s Raw Plus-Minus

Just in raw terms, Steph Curry’s plus minus stats are off the charts. Steph’s career on-off in the regular season is +11.3 (for reference, LeBron’s is +10.8), and his playoffs on-off is +12.0 (LeBron’s is +10.2).

It is also worth noting that, even in the KD years, the Warriors only went 24-23 in regular season games Steph missed. Probably the best team of all time really wasn’t all that great when they played without Steph. And this is because Steph was the major driver of what made them so great. For instance, in those years in regular season + playoffs, the Warriors were actually +9.54 in net rating with Steph on the court and no Durant or Draymond—which is really good and also substantially higher than the Warriors’ net rating with Durant and Draymond on without Steph (+5.43).

Some Notes on Steph’s Defense

A lot of objection to Steph relates to defense. But, to begin with, defensive deficiencies would affect impact metrics, so they’re already priced into the above numbers. I also think a lot of the discourse around Steph’s defense is a bit misguided, because people mistake teams hunting Steph on defense for evidence that Steph is a weak defender—when really what’s going on is that teams want to hunt Steph so that he can’t rest on defense, in an effort to make him too tired to destroy them offensively.

I use as an example the Cavaliers in those finals—which was a team that hunted Steph a lot. They hunted Steph, but the Cavs did not actually produce efficient offense by their standards in those finals. They usually dipped (as did the Rockets—who faced the Warriors multiple times in the playoffs and tried the same tactic and typically had catastrophic drops in offensive efficiency). And there’s reason to believe this was in part because of hunting Steph being very ineffective, not in spite of hunting Steph working. Specifically, we have data that shows us that actually, in those finals, the Cavs shot a worse FG% when defended by Steph than they did when defended by any other Warriors player that got meaningful minutes. Hunting Steph was not actually successful:

Spoiler:
For reference, though, the NBA’s website actually has data on how teams shot when defended by specific players. See this link and you can filter down to the 2015-2016 playoffs for the Warriors specifically when facing the Cavaliers: ‪https://www.nba.com/stats/players/defense-dash-overall?Season=2015-16‬. You’ll find that the Cavaliers had a 40.5% FG% when defended by Steph in the 2016 Finals. Which is the lowest for any Warriors player who played meaningful minutes, except for Bogut and Livingston. This is a bit of a noisy stat of course, but it is surely yet more evidence that I’m right on this. And this was not just limited to that 2016 finals. Overall, across all those finals against the Cavs, we can derive from that database that the Cavaliers shot just 36.0% from the field when defended by Steph. For reference, the corresponding number for Iguodala over those finals was 44.4%. The corresponding number for Klay over those finals was 43.1%. The number for Draymond in those finals was 41.7%. For Livingston, it was 39.2% overall. In the two finals Durant was in, the Cavs shot 48.7% when defended by Durant. In the two prior finals, the Cavs shot 46.4% when defended by Harrison Barnes, and 46.9% when defended by Leandro Barbosa. The Cavs shot a total of 39.1% when defended by Bogut in the finals Bogut played in. The Cavs objectively fared *particularly* badly in those finals when defended by Steph. Indeed, in those finals overall, the Cavs shot a worse FG% when defended by Steph than they did when defended by any other Warriors player that got meaningful minutes, and it’s not even close.


Bottom Line

The bottom line is that prime Steph was actually the league’s data ball king. He was dominant in metric after metric, including pure impact metrics and metrics like RAPTOR that have a box score component. And that’s in an era with the guy that this board overwhelmingly voted #1 all time (and who I have as my #2 all time), including when that #1 guy was in his prime years still. I don’t see how this shouldn’t lead to Steph being ranked really highly here.

Now, I should note that this is not an argument that Steph Curry should be above LeBron all time. I don’t think he should, because he does not have LeBron’s freakish longevity. I simply use LeBron James as a comparison because LeBron is so great. With Steph, we are talking about someone who was good enough to usurp the data-ball crown from the #1 player of all time (or #2 by my personal estimation) while that player was still in his prime. And, in doing so of course, Steph also won 4 titles, led some of the best teams ever (both with and without Durant—indeed, LeBron managing to beat Steph’s Warriors in 2016 is a huge part of LeBron’s case for #1 all time, which surely says a huge amount about Steph too). Furthermore, for what it’s worth, this is also all in the most recent era of basketball—which is surely the most talented one, what with the game going more and more global. I don’t see how someone who has done all this shouldn’t be getting into the discussion at this point. His prime has not been *super* long (though it’s still going I think), and that’d be the biggest knock on him, but at this point we are actually a full decade into his prime. It’s not a short timespan anymore. And, in that time, what he has achieved in terms of impact is extremely difficult for anyone to match, and his team success has been incredible.
OhayoKD wrote:Lebron contributes more to all the phases of play than Messi does. And he is of course a defensive anchor unlike messi.
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #3 (Deadline 7/9 11:59pm) 

Post#25 » by homecourtloss » Fri Jul 7, 2023 11:05 pm

lessthanjake wrote:VOTE FOR #3: Michael Jordan

VOTE FOR #4: Bill Russell

Nomination: Stephen Curry

Case for Michael Jordan

My explanations on Michael Jordan have been all over the last two threads, so I won’t really go into as much detail as I could and would refer people to discussions in the prior threads. Basically, I think Jordan’s record of consistently being the best player on either team in the Bulls’ playoff series, during a career where he won 6 titles is unmatched. He’s dominant in box stats, he led super dominant teams, no one ever outshone him in the playoffs, and for what it’s worth (which isn’t a whole lot, since the data is limited) the impact measures we do have for him signal quite well (RAPM data we have for him for single seasons, single playoffs, or snippets of seasons usually having him #1 in the league, often by a significant margin).

The arguments against him in the prior threads focus a lot on the Bulls doing pretty well without him in 1994, but even there we’re still ultimately talking about a 2.87 SRS team that beat a completely injury-ravaged team in the first round of the playoffs and then lost a close series against a very good team. Even if we ignore the lingering value of that team having learned how to win from their prior years with Jordan, and leave aside the fact that missing a star player for a whole season is entirely different from missing a player for random periods due to injury (the latter will be a situation where the team is not as able to adapt to the player’s absence), the reality is that the 1993-1994 season in no way backs the idea that the Bulls were a contender without Jordan. They were 11th in SRS (maybe a bit higher just while healthy, but we’re comparing to the rest of the league’s numbers and other teams weren’t always healthy either). And the only playoff series they won was against a team that was completely ravaged by injury (the Cavs missing Brad Daugherty, Larry Nance, and Hot Rod Williams). They also managed to play the Knicks very close—which was pretty good, because the Knicks were a genuinely good team—but being 11th in SRS, winning a gimme-putt playoff series, and then losing a 7-game series is not the picture of a real contender, and nor were they understood to be serious contenders at the time. Meanwhile, with Jordan, the team had been an absolute buzzsaw (and would become one again afterwards). The lift between pretty good team and historic buzzsaw is extremely significant and extremely impressive—particularly when we realize that Jordan was always the unequivocal best player on those teams (and better than anyone on their playoff opponents’ teams too). Ultimately, focusing on just how bad or good a player’s team was in games or seasons without them is missing the forest for the trees at this point. Michael Jordan was essentially always the best player on the court in every playoff series, and his team was extremely dominant for a substantial period of time while he did so. It’s a case of individual dominance that is unmatched.

Bill Russell

My secondary vote goes to Bill Russell. To be honest, I have a large range for where Bill Russell could go, because I’m not always sure what to do with him. I do discount things from Russell’s era a bit—particularly the early stages of it—because I do not think the competition was as strong as it later became in the 1980s and beyond. Professional basketball just objectively was in a pretty nascent stage at the time, and I do think that that needs to be recognized to at least some degree here. I do also think we need to understand that the context of those 11 titles is one where he was usually only needing to win two playoffs series’, and one of them was typically against a mediocre team (as you’d expect in the semifinals of an 8 or 9 team league). It’s easier to win with fewer hurdles. Russell’s offense was undeniably weak by the standards of players that would be considered here. The eye test on Russell is also not super convincing to me. And he was undeniably fortunate to play with a lot of amazing teammates, and for an organization that was actually competent (in a nascent era of the league where many organizations were just disasters). That said, winning 11 titles as the team’s major lynchpin (particularly on defense—which is what the team most excelled in those years, and in an era where individual defense from a big man was probably even more important) is still incredible. Even if we recognize that it’s substantially easier to do that in that era with a weaker league and fewer playoff rounds, 11 titles is just such a gargantuan achievement that I don’t think I can hold off on voting for Russell beyond 4th.

Nomination of Steph Curry

He does not make my top 4, but I want to nominate Steph Curry—who I think needs to start being discussed soon in this project.

What strikes me about Steph is to look at the #1 vote in this project, which was overwhelmingly for LeBron James. There were many reasons LeBron got those votes, but one major rationale consistently mentioned was LeBron’s dominance of advanced statistics in the data-ball era. And I think it’s important for us to recognize that prime Steph Curry actually outshined LeBron James in this regard. Some examples:

Steph Curry’s Five-Year RAPM ranking - NBAshotcharts

- 2011-2016: 3rd
- 2012-2017: 3rd
- 2013-2018: 1st
- 2014-2019: 1st
- 2015-2020: 1st
- 2016-2021: 1st
- 2017-2022: 1st
- 2018-2023: 5th

This is clearly dominant from Steph. In reference to #1 all time LeBron, Steph is above LeBron in this RAPM measure for every time period starting with 2013-2018 (and is barely below in the first two time periods).

Steph Curry’s Regular-Season RAPM - Basketball-Analytics.Gitlab

- 2013-2014: 7th
- 2014-2015: 3rd
- 2015-2016: 2nd
- 2016-2017: 1st
- 2017-2018: 1st
- 2018-2019: 3rd

Again, incredible performance in this measure from Steph. For reference again, he is ahead of LeBron every single one of those years (the measure doesn’t go past 2018-2019).

Steph Curry’s Playoffs RAPM - Basketball-Analytics.Gitlab

- 2013-2014: 58th
- 2014-2015: 2nd
- 2015-2016: 9th
- 2016-2017: 1st
- 2017-2018: 3rd
- 2018-2019: 7th

This is really great from Steph, and, again, he is ahead of LeBron in all but two of those playoffs (2013-2014 and 2015-2016).

Steph Curry’s Real-Plus-Minus

- 2013-2014: 2nd
- 2014-2015: 1st
- 2015-2016: 1st
- 2016-2017: 1st
- 2017-2018: 2nd
- 2018-2019: 1st
- 2019-2020: N/A
- 2020-2021: 1st
- 2021-2022: 3rd
- 2022-2023: 29th

Not my favorite stat, but Steph Curry is dominant again, and is ahead of LeBron every year but one (ironically, 2022-2023). And, even just leaving aside looking at the years of Steph’s prime, if you look at their entire careers and weight their RPM each year by the minutes they played and then take out their rookie seasons (the one year where they both had negative RPM scores), Steph has a higher career average RPM than LeBron (6.92 for Steph vs. 6.87 for LeBron).

Steph Curry’s RAPTOR (Regular Season + Playoffs)

- 2013-2014: 2nd
- 2014-2015: 1st
- 2015-2016: 1st
- 2016-2017: 2nd
- 2017-2018: 4th
- 2018-2019: 4th
- 2019-2020: N/A
- 2020-2021: 6th
- 2021-2022: 5th
- 2022-2023: 7th

This is extremely consistently high performance, and Steph was above LeBron in RAPTOR every one of those seasons (except 2019-2020, which Steph missed). And if you weight the RAPTOR score each season by minutes played, Curry’s average RAPTOR score in this time period was over 40% higher than LeBron’s average RAPTOR score (8.68 for Curry vs. 6.18 for LeBron). Indeed, LeBron did not have any year with as high a RAPTOR as Steph Curry’s *average*.

Steph Curry’s RAPTOR (just Playoffs)

- 2013-2014: 3rd
- 2014-2015: 8th
- 2015-2016: 18th
- 2016-2017: 3rd
- 2017-2018: 9th
- 2018-2019: 14th
- 2019-2020: N/A
- 2020-2021: N/A
- 2021-2022: 6th
- 2022-2023: 16th

This is really consistent performance when dealing with a low sample size of the playoffs (so a very noisy stat). Even in the playoffs, Steph is above LeBron every one of those years except 2015-2016. If you do a weighted-average by minutes played, LeBron actually comes out ahead, but they’re essentially equal (8.4 for LeBron vs. 8.3 for Steph).

Steph Curry’s LEBRON score

- 2013-2014: 3rd
- 2014-2015: 1st
- 2015-2016: 2nd
- 2016-2017: 1st
- 2017-2018: 2nd
- 2018-2019: 7th
- 2019-2020: N/A
- 2020-2021: 7th
- 2021-2022: 6th
- 2022-2023: 17th

Again, this is consistently great, and for reference he is above LeBron in 6 of the 9 seasons here where he played. His minutes-weighted average in this time period is also higher than LeBron’s, though they’re essentially equal if you narrow down LeBron’s relevant time period to end at 2020-2021.

Steph Curry’s Raw Plus-Minus

Just in raw terms, Steph Curry’s plus minus stats are off the charts. Steph’s career on-off in the regular season is +11.3 (for reference, LeBron’s is +10.8), and his playoffs on-off is +12.0 (LeBron’s is +10.2).

It is also worth noting that, even in the KD years, the Warriors only went 24-23 in regular season games Steph missed. Probably the best team of all time really wasn’t all that great when they played without Steph. And this is because Steph was the major driver of what made them so great. For instance, in those years in regular season + playoffs, the Warriors were actually +9.54 in net rating with Steph on the court and no Durant or Draymond—which is really good and also substantially higher than the Warriors’ net rating with Durant and Draymond on without Steph (+5.43).

Some Notes on Steph’s Defense

A lot of objection to Steph relates to defense. But, to begin with, defensive deficiencies would affect impact metrics, so they’re already priced into the above numbers. I also think a lot of the discourse around Steph’s defense is a bit misguided, because people mistake teams hunting Steph on defense for evidence that Steph is a weak defender—when really what’s going on is that teams want to hunt Steph so that he can’t rest on defense, in an effort to make him too tired to destroy them offensively.

I use as an example the Cavaliers in those finals—which was a team that hunted Steph a lot. But the Cavs did not actually produce efficient offense by their standards in those finals. They usually dipped (as did the Rockets—who faced the Warriors multiple times in the playoffs and tried the same tactic and typically had catastrophic drops in offensive efficiency). And there’s reason to believe this was in part because of hunting Steph being very ineffective, not in spite of hunting Steph working. Specifically, we have data that shows us that actually, in those finals, the Cavs shot a worse FG% when defended by Steph than they did when defended by any other Warriors player that got meaningful minutes. Hunting Steph was not actually successful:

Spoiler:
For reference, though, the NBA’s website actually has data on how teams shot when defended by specific players. See this link and you can filter down to the 2015-2016 playoffs for the Warriors specifically when facing the Cavaliers: ‪https://www.nba.com/stats/players/defense-dash-overall?Season=2015-16‬. You’ll find that the Cavaliers had a 40.5% FG% when defended by Steph in the 2016 Finals. Which is the lowest for any Warriors player who played meaningful minutes, except for Bogut and Livingston. This is a bit of a noisy stat of course, but it is surely yet more evidence that I’m right on this. And this was not just limited to that 2016 finals. Overall, across all those finals against the Cavs, we can derive from that database that the Cavaliers shot just 36.0% from the field when defended by Steph. For reference, the corresponding number for Iguodala over those finals was 44.4%. The corresponding number for Klay over those finals was 43.1%. The number for Draymond in those finals was 41.7%. For Livingston, it was 39.2% overall. In the two finals Durant was in, the Cavs shot 48.7% when defended by Durant. In the two prior finals, the Cavs shot 46.4% when defended by Harrison Barnes, and 46.9% when defended by Leandro Barbosa. The Cavs shot a total of 39.1% when defended by Bogut in the finals Bogut played in. The Cavs objectively fared *particularly* badly in those finals when defended by Steph. Indeed, in those finals overall, the Cavs shot a worse FG% when defended by Steph than they did when defended by any other Warriors player that got meaningful minutes, and it’s not even close.


Bottom Line

The bottom line is that prime Steph was actually the league’s data ball king. He was dominant in metric after metric, including pure impact metrics and metrics like RAPTOR that have a box score component. And that’s in an era with the guy that this board overwhelmingly voted #1 all time (and who I have as my #2 all time), including when that #1 guy was in his prime years still. I don’t see how this shouldn’t lead to Steph being ranked really highly here.

Now, I should note that this is not an argument that Steph Curry should be above LeBron all time. I don’t think he should, because he does not have LeBron’s freakish longevity. I simply use LeBron James as a comparison because LeBron is so great. We are talking about someone who was good enough to usurp the data-ball crown from the #1 player of all time (or #2 by my personal estimation) while that player was still in his prime. And, in doing so of course, he also won 4 titles, led some of the best teams ever (both with and without Durant—indeed, LeBron managing to beat Steph’s Warriors in 2016 is a huge part of LeBron’s case for #1 all time, which surely says a huge amount about Steph too). Furthermore, for what it’s worth, this is also all in the most recent era of basketball—which is surely the most talented one, what with the game going more and more global. I don’t see how someone who has done all this shouldn’t be getting into the discussion at this point. His prime has not been *super* long (though it’s still going I think), and that’d be the biggest knock on him, but at this point we are actually a full decade into his prime. It’s not a short timespan anymore. And, in that time, what he has achieved in terms of impact is extremely difficult for anyone to match, and his team success has been incredible.


Seems like you’ve been building up to this by citing NBA shot charts (ignoring the other ones) and gitlab RAPM over and over and over again.
lessthanjake wrote:Kyrie was extremely impactful without LeBron, and basically had zero impact whatsoever if LeBron was on the court.

lessthanjake wrote: By playing in a way that prevents Kyrie from getting much impact, LeBron ensures that controlling for Kyrie has limited effect…
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #3 (Deadline 7/9 11:59pm) 

Post#26 » by lessthanjake » Fri Jul 7, 2023 11:08 pm

homecourtloss wrote:
Seems like you’ve been building up to this by citing NBA shot charts (ignoring the other ones) and gitlab RAPM over and over and over again.


What other ones? The only other one I’m aware of is the Cheema one, but I’m not aware of actual publicly available exact numbers for that (only an unlabeled chart, but maybe the numbers are somewhere), so I couldn’t list specific numbers for that. But that Cheema chart indicates Steph peaked out above LeBron for two five-year spans anyways, so it supports the same point. Am happy for you to point out other RAPM measures that I’m not aware of.
OhayoKD wrote:Lebron contributes more to all the phases of play than Messi does. And he is of course a defensive anchor unlike messi.
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #3 (Deadline 7/9 11:59pm) 

Post#27 » by penbeast0 » Fri Jul 7, 2023 11:33 pm

Just a quick note. If you are going to reply to the last post and it was a half page long, please don't quote it in full unless you are doing a note by note rebuttal. Either just use " . . . " or put it in a spoiler button. Now, if it was a page or two before, sure.
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #3 (Deadline 7/9 11:59pm) 

Post#28 » by One_and_Done » Fri Jul 7, 2023 11:50 pm

LukaTheGOAT wrote:
A big reason he wouldn't have been consider better than them all-time is because he wouldn't even have a decade of play under his belt by 92 unlike Bird and Magic.

Voting results for MVP are heavily influenced by team success and his defense was probably underrated some years (see 1988).

If people want to take the position that Hakeem was just flat out underrated by his contemporaries that’s fine. Sometimes players are. I think the stats, the commentary of the time, and my own observations, are aligned in suggesting that in 1993 everything clicked for Hakeem. Whether he became a better passer as some suggested, or a better leader, or started playing harder/more consistent, that is the opinion many people have. I am one of them, and I think the stats tend to point to that. His regular season numbers take a marked upturn, and his playoffs numbers are consistently better (not “they were always this good if we look only at this limited sample from a weird angle). I tend to think improved attitude/leadership/decision making and increased consistency played a part, but I’m open to other explanations. I don’t really care why it happened, only that it did. I think a lot of people forget that Hakeem was seen as a cancer with a bad attitude before 1993, and had been trying to force his way out of town. Obviously by 1995 he was seen as a mature player, who embodied humility and veteran leadership.

What I don’t think you can argue is that he was always seen as a top level player, and that he just wasn’t being recognized because of team wins and the like. Here are Hakeem’s MVP finishes from 1985 to 1992:

1985: 12th (behind players including Terry Cummings, Bernard King, Moncrief, Isiah Thomas, Calvin Natt, Alex English, and his own team mate Ralph Sampson)
1986: 4th (behind Bird, Dominique Wilkins whose Hawks only won 1 more game than Houston and Magic)
1987: 7th (behind Magic, Jordan, Bird, McHale (Bird’s sidekick), Wilkins and Barkley; Barkley’s team only won 3 more games than Houston)
1988: 7th (behind Jordan, Bird, Magic, Barkley, Clyde and Wilkins; Barkley’s Sixers won only 36 games, 10 less than Houston, and Wilkins Hawks only won 4 more games).
1989: 5th (behind Magic, Jordan, Karl Malone and Ewing; Karl and Ewing’s teams only won slightly more than Hakeem’s Rockets)
1990: 7th (behind Magic, Barkley, Jordan, Malone, Ewing and rookie David Robinson; Ewing’s Knicks won 4 more games)
1991: 18th (behind a cast of characters that included Barkley, Malone, Clyde, KJ, Wilkins, Terry Porter, Ewing, Stockton, Thomas, Parish, Dumars, and even Kenny Smith, Hakeem’s own team mate!)
1992: N/A (didn’t place; even Barkley placed this year, on 35 win team while demanding a trade and trying to eat his way out of town)

I don’t even agree with all those votes`, but it tells you where the public perception of Hakeem was at the time. Being on a bad or mediocre team didn’t stop other lesser players getting votes, so it’s not about Hakeem being out of the spotlight because his team was out of the spotlight. The voters knew who Hakeem was, he’d made the finals in 1986, they had seen him perform on the highest stage. Obviously Hakeem only lost to great teams in the playoffs, except that he lost to the 53 win Aguirre Mavs, the 39 win Sonics led by Xavier McDaniel, the 41 win Dantley Jazz, and the 47 win Sonics led by Dale Ellis, and those were not great teams. He didn’t even make the playoffs in 1992. Then contrast that with what Duncan did with lamentable support casts in 2001-2003.

From 85 to 92 Hakeem’s pp 100 hovered between 27 and 31. From 93 to 96 he scored 33 to 35 pp 100. That’s a substantial increase, and his TS% went higher than it had previously been while he upped his scoring. In the same 1985 to 1992 period he generally had about 3 assists per 100, that climbed to 4.5 assists per 100 the next 4 years. Hakeem’s playoffs are all over the map, but on the whole the per 100 numbers when compared to Duncan’s prime from 98 to 07 suggest Duncan was better. He also did it over a huge sample, whereas some of Hakeem’s crazy numbers come in 1st round losses to meh teams. Hakeem put up huge stats in a 4 game 1st round loss to the Aguirre Mavs in 1988. But it’s 4 games. Against the 1988 Mavs. And they lost. His longest pre 1993 sample is the 1986 finals run, and he does post great numbers on that run. But those numbers are worse than comparable Duncan runs during his prime.

Hakeem 1986 playoffs: 34-15 per 100 on 566 TS%
Duncan 2002 -37-19 per 100 on 550 TS%
Duncan 2003 – 31-19 per 100 on 577 TS%
Duncan 2006 – 37-15 per 100 on 625 TS%

Duncan’s runs are just better than Hakeem, up until 1993 when Hakeem starts posting postseasons that are comparable to Duncan. Unfortunately for Hakeem, he only did it for about 3 years, and I think Duncan was still better. I’m particularly troubled by the Sonics beating the Rockets in 93 and 96 by pushing the boundaries of the illegal defence rules to mess up Hakeem’s offense. It suggests to me Hakeem, who struggled consistently against the Sonics, would have had a reduced impact in today’s game where there is no illegal D protection, and teams have anti-post defences that are designed to prevent the outlet pass and pressure them in ways that frankly didn’t exist in Hakeem’s day. All Hakeem had to do was hold the ball, and wait for the hard double to come. If it did, easy pass. If not, try to score. These days bigs have to make so many more adjustments and decisions, and be so much better under different types of pressure defences.

But looking at longer samples that adjust for pace, Duncan’s numbers are better anyhow. Take Hakeem’s best 10 year stretch, and compare it to Duncan from 98-07, and per 100 it’s probably going to come out pro-Duncan. I also prefer Duncan’s defence. Hakeem was flasher, getting more blocks. Duncan stopped the blocks from happening in the first place, because the other team wouldn’t go near him a lot of the time. He’s a better man defender for mine too, as highlighted in part by his excellent defense on Shaq in 2002. Hakeem was credited with shutting down Shaq in the 95 finals, but in reality Shaq put up huge numbers, arguably better than Hakeem. Shaq's team wasn’t as good is all.
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #3 (Deadline 7/9 11:59pm) 

Post#29 » by LukaTheGOAT » Fri Jul 7, 2023 11:53 pm

One_and_Done wrote:
LukaTheGOAT wrote:
A big reason he wouldn't have been consider better than them all-time is because he wouldn't even have a decade of play under his belt by 92 unlike Bird and Magic.

Voting results for MVP are heavily influenced by team success and his defense was probably underrated some years (see 1988).


From 85 to 92 Hakeem’s pp 100 hovered between 27 and 31. From 93 to 96 he scored 33 to 35 pp 100. That’s a substantial increase, and his TS% went higher than it had previously been while he upped his scoring. In the same 1985 to 1992 period he generally had about 3 assists per 100, that climbed to 4.5 assists per 100 the next 4 years. Hakeem’s playoffs are all over the map, but on the whole the per 100 numbers when compared to Duncan’s prime from 98 to 07 suggest Duncan was better. He also did it over a huge sample, whereas some of Hakeem’s crazy numbers come in 1st round losses to meh teams. Hakeem put up huge stats in a 4 game 1st round loss to the Aguirre Mavs in 1988. But it’s 4 games. Against the 1988 Mavs. And they lost. His longest pre 1993 sample is the 1986 finals run, and he does post great numbers on that run. But those numbers are worse than comparable Duncan runs during his prime.

Hakeem 1986 playoffs: 34-15 per 100 on 566 TS%
Duncan 2002 -37-19 per 100 on 550 TS%
Duncan 2003 – 31-19 per 100 on 577 TS%
Duncan 2006 – 37-15 per 100 on 625 TS%

Duncan’s runs are just better than Hakeem, up until 1993 when Hakeem starts posting postseasons that are comparable to Duncan. Unfortunately for Hakeem, he only did it for about 3 years, and I think Duncan was still better. I’m particularly troubled by the Sonics beating the Rockets in 93 and 96 by pushing the boundaries of the illegal defence rules to mess up Hakeem’s offense. It suggests to me Hakeem, who struggled consistently against the Sonics, would have had a reduced impact in today’s game where there is no illegal D protection, and teams have anti-post defences that are designed to prevent the outlet pass and pressure them in ways that frankly didn’t exist in Hakeem’s day. All Hakeem had to do was hold the ball, and wait for the hard double to come. If it did, easy pass. If not, try to score. These days bigs have to make so many more adjustments and decisions, and be so much better under different types of pressure defences.

But looking at longer samples that adjust for pace, Duncan’s numbers are better anyhow. Take Hakeem’s best 10 year stretch, and compare it to Duncan from 98-07, and per 100 it’s probably going to come out pro-Duncan. I also prefer Duncan’s defence. Hakeem was flasher, getting more blocks. Duncan stopped the blocks from happening in the first place, because the other team wouldn’t go near him a lot of the time. He’s a better man defender for mine too, as highlighted in part by his excellent defense on Shaq in 2002. Hakeem was credited with shutting down Shaq in the 95 finals, but in reality Shaq put up huge numbers, arguably better than Hakeem. Shaq's team wasn’t as good is all.


This just isn't true. Copying this post I made from the last thread.

I don't know about this.

I know people always point to Hakeem's 93-95 stretch for why he is worthy of being top 10. However, I think Hakeem demonstrated even before his peak, why he should be ahead of Robinson.

If we look at the time of Hakeem's First Run to A Championship to 1991 (Hakeem was not in the 1992 playoffs), you can already see the profile of a special big.

Like if we look at at analysis of Hakeem WITHOUT his 93-95 seasons, and compare it to the best 6-year peak of Duncan in the PS (99-05):

Hakeem averaged an Inflation Adjusted 26.3 pts per 75 on rTS% of 5.7%.

BPM-7.5

PER-26.7

WS/48-.229


Duncan averaged an Inflation Adjusted 25.8 pts per 75 on rTS% of 4.1%.

BPM-7.6

PER-26.5

WS/48-.226

It's remarkable how similar their box-score metrics, ain't it? Like they are almost both exactly the same player. They both do things defensively, and with their interior gravity on offense that doesn't get picked up by the box-scores. This is once again, without me including Hakeem's 3-year peak, that would almost certainly swing things in his favor. Duncan won 3 champions during this time span, and Hakeem won 0. Hakeem showed early on he could be the best player on a title team, however, his team didn't get back there until much later in his career, possibly due to his running mate in Sampson having injuries.

Hakeem was good, even when his team wasn't good.My point is Hakeem, was an underrated PS performer even outside his peak years. If Hakeem came up short in 94 and 95, he likely would have gone down in history as a choker, but that really shouldn't be the case. Hakeem generally WAS an all-timer, even before his peak years.

Per Thinking Basketball's Backpicks OBPM, Hakeem has one of the largest increases in PS offensive performance ever for the prime span of a player's career. Once again, yes, 93-95 Hakeem was great, as this video shows, Hakeem CONSISTENTLY elevated his game in the PS, not just during a couple years in his career. What Hakeem did during these pre-peak years was not an abberation.



The final thing, is that I believe my discussion so far, probably underrates Hakeem's defense. 89 and 90 Hakeem is very probably the best defender of the modern era. 93-95 Hakeem turned up his defense in the PS, but a strong argument could be made that his best defensive years were before that period.

Hakeem was also an absurd man defender. In an era, where offense was more likely to be ran through bigs in the post, I think Hakeem's defensive value was amplified here. In ‘90, Hakeem held All-Star centers to -2.1 points per 36 below their average and -6.4 rTS% below their average per Backpicks. That is ABSURD, and considering he has a good argument as a better rim protector due to quicker leaper, and better help defender due to better horizontal short-area quickness, it is something to thinking about.


Also you mentioned 10 year peaks btw:

1986-1995 Hakeem in the PS

Adjusted 27.7 pts per 75 on rTS% of 4.4%. Estimated 5.2 shots created per 100 possessions.

Backpicks BPM-6.9
BPM-7.5
PER-26.9

10-year peak WOWY value estimations
WOWYR-5.2
Scaled WOWYR-5.3
Alt-Scaled-6.5

Career WOWY-5.5


98-07 Duncan in the PS


Adjusted 25.8 pts per 75 on rTS% of 4.3%. Estimated 4.5 shots created per 100 possessions.

Backpicks BPM-6.3
BPM-7.4
PER-26.6

10-year Prime WOWYR-4.1
10-Year Prime

10-year peaks WOWY value estimations
WOWYR-4.1
Prime WOWYR-
Scaled WOWYR-5.2
Alt Scaled-5

Career WOWY-5.2

Once again, not seeing how Duncan blows Hakeem away here.
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #3 (Deadline 7/9 11:59pm) 

Post#30 » by One_and_Done » Sat Jul 8, 2023 12:00 am

I don't feel moved by most of the advanced stats you posted is the thing, and I don't think we should era adjust TS%. Some guys would have different TS% in their era obviously, but a flat adjustment based on how good everyone else was at the time is misleading because you're punishing guys for being born into a league where people were better at shooting. Reddick would be a GOAT TS% king if we teleported him into 1957. It doesn't mean he was one of the best scorers of all time though. You just have to use common sense and context.

Whose PER is better? Bruce Bowen or Ricky Davis? I don't think all in one stats like that are very helpful. I don't mind looking at APM as one data point that we can use among many other bits of evidence, but box score metrics I don't much care for, especially volume ones. I don't think we should ever look at a guys stats and say "wow, Hakeem was .003 higher in Win shares! and KG was 0.4 higher in APM over their careers, so that must mean they were better!"
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #3 (Deadline 7/9 11:59pm) 

Post#31 » by lessthanjake » Sat Jul 8, 2023 12:13 am

LukaTheGOAT wrote:
Hakeem was also an absurd man defender. In an era, where offense was more likely to be ran through bigs in the post, I think Hakeem's defensive value was amplified here. In ‘90, Hakeem held All-Star centers to -2.1 points per 36 below their average and -6.4 rTS% below their average per Backpicks. That is ABSURD, and considering he has a good argument as a better rim protector due to quicker leaper, and better help defender due to better horizontal short-area quickness, it is something to thinking about.


That’s interesting info, but surely that’s a really low sample size, right? Dunno if “All-Star centers” means players that had made all-star games in their career or just that season, but if it’s the latter then that’s basically just games that season against three other players (Robinson, Ewing, and Parish)—which would be just 8 games. Not exactly much of a sample to draw a major conclusion on. I’d definitely be curious if there are numbers on something like this over a much larger time horizon though.
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #3 (Deadline 7/9 11:59pm) 

Post#32 » by LukaTheGOAT » Sat Jul 8, 2023 12:14 am

One_and_Done wrote:I don't feel moved by most of the advanced stats you posted is the thing, and I don't think we should era adjust TS%. Some guys would have different TS% in their era obviously, but a flat adjustment based on how good everyone else was at the time is misleading because you're punishing guys for being born into a league where people were better at shooting. Reddick would be a GOAT TS% king if we teleported him into 1957. It doesn't mean he was one of the best scorers of all time though. You just have to use common sense and context.

Whose PER is better? Bruce Bowen or Ricky Davis? I don't think all in one stats like that are very helpful. I don't mind looking at APM as one data point that we can use among many other bits of evidence, but box score metrics I don't much care for, especially volume ones. I don't think we should ever look at a guys stats and say "wow, Hakeem was .003 higher in Win shares! and KG was 0.4 higher in APM over their careers, so that must mean they were better!"


I mean, okay, but I showed you numbers that suggest Hakeem was possibly a better scorer and creator than Duncan. And many here believe Hakeem was also possibly a better defender than Duncan, hence why some feel as if Hakeem's prime is comparable to Duncan outside 93-95.

Also, over that 10-year stretch, Hakeem has a 57.5 TS%. Duncan is at 56 TS%. So I actually did Duncan a favor, by adjusting the numbers.

Also, it wasn't just numbers. I tried to explain why Hakeem's defense was potentially more preferable. I do think Hakeem was quicker, and could probably cover ground better than Duncan.
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #3 (Deadline 7/9 11:59pm) 

Post#33 » by OldSchoolNoBull » Sat Jul 8, 2023 12:22 am

One_and_Done wrote:I don't feel moved by most of the advanced stats you posted is the thing, and I don't think we should era adjust TS%. Some guys would have different TS% in their era obviously, but a flat adjustment based on how good everyone else was at the time is misleading because you're punishing guys for being born into a league where people were better at shooting. Reddick would be a GOAT TS% king if we teleported him into 1957. It doesn't mean he was one of the best scorers of all time though. You just have to use common sense and context.


But it goes both ways. Using only raw TS quite literally will punish countless players simply for having been born too early.
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #3 (Deadline 7/9 11:59pm) 

Post#34 » by LukaTheGOAT » Sat Jul 8, 2023 12:24 am

lessthanjake wrote:
LukaTheGOAT wrote:
Hakeem was also an absurd man defender. In an era, where offense was more likely to be ran through bigs in the post, I think Hakeem's defensive value was amplified here. In ‘90, Hakeem held All-Star centers to -2.1 points per 36 below their average and -6.4 rTS% below their average per Backpicks. That is ABSURD, and considering he has a good argument as a better rim protector due to quicker leaper, and better help defender due to better horizontal short-area quickness, it is something to thinking about.


That’s interesting info, but surely that’s a really low sample size, right? Dunno if “All-Star centers” means players that had made all-star games in their career or just that season, but if it’s the latter then that’s basically just games that season against three other players (Robinson, Ewing, and Parish)—which would be just 8 games. Not exactly much of a sample to draw a major conclusion on. I’d definitely be curious if there are numbers on something like this over a much larger time horizon though.


"And Hakeem wasn’t just a great team defender, he was an individual shutdown artist of the highest order. Opposing All-Star centers lost nearly 4 points per 36 and more than 5 points of efficiency against him during the heart of his career" (88-94

Specifically we are talking about a 3.6 pts per 36 drop, with a -5.5 TS% drop.

https://thinkingbasketball.net/2018/03/25/backpicks-goat-hakeem-olajuwon/
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #3 (Deadline 7/9 11:59pm) 

Post#35 » by LukaTheGOAT » Sat Jul 8, 2023 12:34 am

A
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #3 (Deadline 7/9 11:59pm) 

Post#36 » by LukaTheGOAT » Sat Jul 8, 2023 12:35 am

One_and_Done wrote:I don't feel moved by most of the advanced stats you posted is the thing, and I don't think we should era adjust TS%. Some guys would have different TS% in their era obviously, but a flat adjustment based on how good everyone else was at the time is misleading because you're punishing guys for being born into a league where people were better at shooting. Reddick would be a GOAT TS% king if we teleported him into 1957. It doesn't mean he was one of the best scorers of all time though. You just have to use common sense and context.

Whose PER is better? Bruce Bowen or Ricky Davis? I don't think all in one stats like that are very helpful. I don't mind looking at APM as one data point that we can use among many other bits of evidence, but box score metrics I don't much care for, especially volume ones. I don't think we should ever look at a guys stats and say "wow, Hakeem was .003 higher in Win shares! and KG was 0.4 higher in APM over their careers, so that must mean they were better!"


Forgot to add:

Hakeem's 10-year Prime

WOWYR-5.2
Scaled WOWYR-5.3
Alt-Scaled-6.5

Duncan's 10-Year Prime

WOWYR-4.1
Scaled WOWYR-5.2
Alt Scaled-5

No box-score numbers needed.
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #3 (Deadline 7/9 11:59pm) 

Post#37 » by f4p » Sat Jul 8, 2023 1:03 am

ShaqAttac wrote:
Ambrose wrote:#1 Michael Jordan

To put it simply, I personally think Jordan is flat out better than anyone else left. There may be a run or two from Russell or Duncan or Wilt that look comparable but nothing like Jordan's stretch of combined individual and team dominance. I also don't think he has the dips or red flags the others have. I love data as much as anyone, (not saying data isn't high on Jordan) but sometimes we do use that in place of simply "proving it" and I think putting anyone else other than Jordan here would be an example of that. However, I'm quite on Russell offensively, so I can see why those who view him higher may disagree.

To go back to my stated criteria from a prior thread, I believe the per season title equity Jordan gives you outweighs the longevity advantage of Duncan, and there is no longevity concern against guys like Russell or Wilt. Being the greatest scorer to ever live, who was also postseason resilient, is incredibly valuable, especially when he's also a plus defender, can work off-ball, and playmake for others. I'm curious to see what he would've been able to achieve as a help defender in a different era where they didn't have weird rules, as he had the IQ to accel there as well.

Nominate: Magic Johnson

Do you think Russell had waay more help than MJ then? Because MJ only won with a superteam and 11>6.


certainly on average he had more help. his first season in the league, he missed the first 24 games for the olympics. his team went 16-8. if they had kept up that pace, they would have finished 48-24, 10 wins more than the next best team. that was the team russell got added to. i said duncan had a good start, but it pales in comparison to a runaway best record team. he actually had a negative WOWY that first year because his team went 28-20 (42 win pace) with him, so -6. little wonder that the celtics posted easily the best record for the next 5 or 6 years. and the rest of the league was shockingly mediocre, so russell's megateams were facing <1 and <2 SRS teams constantly.

russell's average SRS differential to his opponent in his 2 losses is actually +1.47. meaning he was a favorite on average in his 2 losses. that's the highest "average loss" differential of anyone i tracked. yes, he was injured in the finals, but the team did go 1-3 in his games and 1-2 if you take out game 6 where he came back and only played 20 minutes. on the flip side, jordan's differential of -5.04 is easily the lowest of anyone i tracked, meaning he was a massive underdog when he lost. besting the 2nd lowest of -3.49 for garnett.

russell also started his career as generally a playoff faller. this partly explains why his teams got taken to 7 games so many times, despite huge win differentials. he also wasn't an underdog in a series until 1967, and he lost.

by mid career though, russell started becoming a playoff riser, his teams do not appear to have the lopsided talent advantage by that point, and he started playing higher SRS teams (though often still not great) and beating them, including a +8 wilt team and 4 teams around +5 to finish it out. so in a way, you could say he validated the early career concerns by showing he could win without a huge supporting cast advantage and could beat good teams and even 1 great one. the counterargument would be that he got lucky he was a playoff underperformer (modestly) on his most talented teams and then overperformed on his less talented teams. in fact, it's probably axiomatic that someone that wins 11 of 13 in a team setting got lucky/fortunate in a lot of ways. if the talent advantage on his teams was flipped from early career to late career, we might see the late 60's celtics go on a 5 or 6 year run of 65-70 win seasons with dominant 0 and 1 loss playoffs sprinkled in. but possibly 3 or 4 missed titles early in russell's career, which might remove some of the veneer of invincibility.

the biggest concern with jordan's case is that he kind of went from huge underdog to huge favorite very quickly. when he lost, it was unreasonable to think he wouldn't lose. when he won, it was often unreasonable to think he wouldn't win. so he didn't necessarily pile up the close series we might like to see. however, i do give big credit to 1993 and 1998. the 1993 bulls were a +6.2 teams that had to basically beat 3 other +6 teams, and went 12-4 against them. the 1998 bulls were a +7.2 team, but the pacers and jazz were +6.3 and +5.7, and with pippen's last 2 finals games being a 2-16 disaster class and a game 6 where he only played 26 minutes, that was the time to get jordan. instead, in game 7 against indiana, he guarded reggie in the 4th and held him to 0 points on 0-1 shooting (wouldn't even let him get the ball), and in game 6 against utah he score 45 points in a glacially slow 76 pace game to drag a tired bulls team to title number 6. basically his "bill russell 1969" moment as far as i'm concerned, to show he could also win when things were not at their best.
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #3 (Deadline 7/9 11:59pm) 

Post#38 » by AEnigma » Sat Jul 8, 2023 1:18 am

One_and_Done wrote:I don't feel moved by most of the advanced stats you posted is the thing,

But you are moved by MVP shares? :-?

If you prefer Duncan to Hakeem, that is fine. He had a nice career with plenty of significant accomplishments which stand on their own. You do not really need to attack Hakeem’s public perception for that to be a valid view lol.
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #3 (Deadline 7/9 11:59pm) 

Post#39 » by One_and_Done » Sat Jul 8, 2023 1:20 am

AEnigma wrote:
One_and_Done wrote:I don't feel moved by most of the advanced stats you posted is the thing,

But you are moved by MVP shares? :-?

If you prefer Duncan to Hakeem, that is fine. He had a nice career with plenty of significant accomplishments which stand on their own. You do not really need to attack Hakeem’s public perception for that to be a valid view lol.


I already said I don't agree with all those votes. I am pointing to them only to highlight what the perception of Hakeem was.
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #3 (Deadline 7/9 11:59pm) 

Post#40 » by iggymcfrack » Sat Jul 8, 2023 1:43 am

It's been mentioned a lot of times how the Bulls had the exact same record in playoff series from '91-'98 as the Celtics did from their first title of the Russell dynasty in 1957 to the last in 1969. Well, let's look at that a little more in-depth, but since Jordan wasn't playing in 1994, I'll use 1990 instead and just look at the years Jordan played with Phil Jackson. (Remember, Russell also had a legendary genius coach.)

The Celtics had an average SRS of +6.0 from '57-'69. The Bulls had an average SRS of +7.7 from 1990-1998 excluding 1994. During the Celtics' dynasty run, there were an average of 9.3 teams in the league and during the Bulls' run there were an average of 27.8 teams in the league. This means that during Boston's run, each team's SRS was artificially depressed by 0.7 points per game due to have to facing the Celtics (SRS/(# of teams-1)) while the Bulls opposition was only depressed by 0.3 points per game due to having to face the Bulls. So let's adjust every team the Celtics played in the playoffs up by 0.4 points during that run to give them a higher SRS. Here's how those series went:

Boston Celtics playoff series during Russell years
1957 Def. -0.6 adjusted SRS Syracuse 3-0
1957 Def. +0.1 ASRS St. Louis 4-3
1958 Def. +0.6 ASRS Philly 4-1
1958 Lose to +1.2 ASRS St. Louis 2-4
1959 Def. +4.1 ASRS Syracuse 4-3
1959 Def. -1.0 ASRS Minneapolis 4-0
1960 Def. +3.2 ASRS Philly 4-2
1960 Def. +2.2 ASRS St. Louis 4-3
1961 Def. +2.3 ASRS Syracuse 4-1
1961 Def. +3.4 ASRS St. Louis 4-1
1962 Def. +3.0 Philly 4-3
1962 Def. +2.3 LA Lakers 4-3
1963 Def. +1.6 Cincinnati 4-3
1963 Def. +3.1 LA Lakers 4-2
1964 Def. +4.8 Cincinnati 4-1
1964 Def. +4.8 San Francisco 4-1
1965 Def. +0.3 Philly 4-3
1965 Def. +2.1 LA Lakers 4-1
1966 Def. +1.4 Cincinnati 3-2
1966 Def. +4.5 Philly 4-1
1966 Def. +3.3 LA Lakers 4-3
1967 Def. -2.3 New York 3-1
1967 Lose to +8.9 Philly 1-4
1968 Def. -1.3 Detroit 4-2
1968 Def. +8.4 Philly 4-3
1968 Def. +5.4 LA Lakers 4-2
1969 Def. +5.2 Philly 4-1
1969 Def. +5.9 New York 4-2
1969 Def. +4.2 LA Lakers 4-3

Chicago Bulls playoff series during Jordan/Jackson years
1990 Def. -1.1 SRS Milwaukee 3-1
1990 Def. +4.2 SRS Philly 4-1
1990 Lose to +5.4 SRS Detroit 3-4
1991 Def. -0.4 SRS New York 3-0
1991 Def. -0.4 SRS Philly 4-1
1991 Def. +3.1 SRS Detroit 4-0
1991 Def. +6.7 SRS LA Lakers 4-1
1992 Def. -3.9 Miami 3-0
1992 Def. +3.7 New York 4-3
1992 Def. +5.3 Cleveland 4-2
1992 Def. +6.9 Portland 4-2
1993 Def. -0.7 Atlanta 3-0
1993 Def. +6.3 Cleveland 4-0
1993 Def. +5.9 New York 4-2
1993 Def. +6.3 Phoenix 4-2
1995 Def. +2.9 Charlotte 3-1
1995 Lose to +6.4 Orlando 2-4
1996 Def. +1.5 Miami 3-0
1996 Def. +2.2 New York 4-1
1996 Def. +5.4 Orlando 4-0
1996 Def. +7.4 Seattle 4-2
1997 Def. +1.8 Washington 3-0
1997 Def. +5.5 Atlanta 4-1
1997 Def. +5.6 Miami 4-1
1997 Def. +8.0 Utah 4-2
1998 Def. +1.9 New Jersey 3-0
1998 Def. +2.5 Charlotte 4-1
1998 Def. +6.3 Indiana 4-3
1998 Def. +5.7 Utah 4-2

Overall results

Russell vs. teams with 5+ ASRS: 4-1 series record (.800), 17-12 game record (.586)
Jordan vs. teams with 5+ SRS: 13-2 series record (.867), 57-28 game record (.671)

Russell vs. teams with 2-5 ASRS: 14-0 series record (1.000), 56-28 game record (.667)
Jordan vs. teams with 2-5 SRS: 6-0 series record (1.000), 23-7 game record (.767)

Russell vs. teams under 2 SRS: 9-1 series record (.900), 35-19 game record (.648)
Jordan vs. teams under 2 SRS: 7-0 series record (1.000), 25-2 game record (.926)

Note that Jordan has a better record in individual games against playoff teams with a SRS under 2 than Russell has in series. Also, Jordan has a better game record against the teams with 5+ SRS than Russell does against the teams with SRS under 2. Even if you go back to Jordan's rookie season, he never lost to a team with an SRS under 5 whereas Russell lost to the pitiful 34-38 Hawks in 1957 in a year where no team had a winning record in the Western Division. Obviously, there are other factors at play. Russell dominated more consistently over a variety of ages, but also he did it against much weaker competition with regard to the league as a whole and where the talent level was at, and with Oscar stuck on extremely poor teams all through his prime, he pretty much just had to beat Wilt most years to win those rings. That's why I'm voting for the ultimate winner:

Vote: Michael Jordan

Nominate: Shaquille O' Neal

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