What's the strongest data-driven argument for Michael Jordan as GOAT?

[70sFan]

The PC board acts like they are some higher level form of thinkers that have considerations beyond the normie MJ stan vs LeBron stan debates... yet it looks just its just following the yearly tradition of all their ranking projects. As soon as LBJ and MJ are out, the interest in the project declines exponentially. MJ is out, and the threads are already a third of the size as #1.

Yeah, there are posters who only come into the project to make it sure their man wins the number 1 spot, but it's not "yearly tradition". Last time, the second thread was the shortest out of top 10 and the one when Magic Johnson went in was way longer than the top 3 threads.

It's very easy to cry about results, but it should be very easy to provide arguments why you think this project is useless. I think you didn't even read the discussion, because the biggest value this project provides isn't a list, but an overall growth of the community knowledge by long discussion.

its simple, when 90% of the board traffic is for 1 ongoing fan thread for a specific player, its not going to be an objective community. Just like if you put up a ranking thread in the Lakers board versus Celtics board, you're going to get biased results.

You can go to almost any thread in PC board that makes it over 2 pages and CTRL+F and you'll find LeBron in there somewhere. It could be a thread about like, Damian Lillard vs Rajon Rondo or George Mikan vs Victor Wembanyama or whatever, literally anything. If it gets any kind of traction there will be someone fitting in some reason to talk about LeBron.

I made an experiment - went with the first pages of the 12 PC Board threads and LeBron was mentioned in 7 out of 12 - in two of them his name was only mentioned once and the discussion never went into James debate, while the other three are top 100 project, so of course he is mentioned. So, 2 out of 12 isn't that much.

Instead of raving about biases, provide examples. It should be very easy, do it.

[70sFan]

So I need just to copy and past all the thread aside of few unbiased posters? Ok, then I have few hours...

Yeah, do it and provide the reasons why you think these posts are biased and unreasonable.

Look at the first thread of the top 100. First page.
1 guy voted for Jordan instantly gets attacked, why would anyone spend time trying to participate in these if he gets attacked for his vote?

It wasn't "instantly" and it wasn't an "attack". By the same criteria, actually the first poster got "attacked" by having LeBron over Kareem. So much about bias...

[70sFan]

Yeah, there are posters who only come into the project to make it sure their man wins the number 1 spot, but it's not "yearly tradition". Last time, the second thread was the shortest out of top 10 and the one when Magic Johnson went in was way longer than the top 3 threads.

It's very easy to cry about results, but it should be very easy to provide arguments why you think this project is useless. I think you didn't even read the discussion, because the biggest value this project provides isn't a list, but an overall growth of the community knowledge by long discussion.

its simple, when 90% of the board traffic is for 1 ongoing fan thread for a specific player, its not going to be an objective community. Just like if you put up a ranking thread in the Lakers board versus Celtics board, you're going to get biased results.

You can go to almost any thread in PC board that makes it over 2 pages and CTRL+F and you'll find LeBron in there somewhere. It could be a thread about like, Damian Lillard vs Rajon Rondo or George Mikan vs Victor Wembanyama or whatever, literally anything. If it gets any kind of traction there will be someone fitting in some reason to talk about LeBron.

This quote bout PC is very exact, I can't tell better.

"The same board that has threads going hundreds of pages about LeBron each year even when he is missing the playoffs? It's the LeBron board. No one who knows what is going on takes it seriously. Any real discussion around here takes place on the General Board

+1 to everything about the PC board. What a fall from grace. That was - by far - my favorite board for years. There are still some great posters there, but man, the current top 100 discussion is a tough read. A bunch of dudes working backwards from "I want LeBron to be the best" and patting themselves on thr back once they've found some path they can argue in bad faith. Talking about how the conversation around LeBron vs. Jordan has shifted because some thread made up of mostly posters from the dedicated LeBron thread favors LeBron. Zero self-awareness.

There are definitely some solid arguments on the LeBron side but that thread is mostly going with "LeBron looks great with these metrics, we don't have them for MJ, and since he's my favorite player, LeBron must have been better".."

Still waiting...

Are you aware that the majority of posters active in LeBron thread aren't active on the project?

[MyUniBroDavis]

Message sent in 2018…
And why do bbref have these stats up if they are dead? Because it doesnt paint Lebron as the goat?

Seems like ALOT of stats that dont paint Lebron as outright goat are not good enough. Kinda hilarious tbh.

And i do not understand
Jordan>lebron winning.
Jordan>lebron every adv metric not longevity dependant.
Jordan>lebron accolades.
Basicly jordan>lebron in everything not longevity based or assists(not a big gap either)
Lebron>Jordan in some patreon stat=Lebron GOAT!

Ps kinda lame to post pms

This dude has gone on a few rants about posters and called me out specifically without tagging me lmao I do not even remotely care if I’m posting PMs when it is a bit that spam sent that to every poster and now just posts “wow I hate the PC board” when bro types like a failed prototype of chatgpt

You’re implying that I’m part of the project that had Lebron above Jordan and I’m not lol.

Imo, the issue is that Data driven arguments don’t exist to support jordan because of a lack of data in the first place, it’s a bit of a dumb premise and at very best you have people looking at the drop off when jordan wasn’t there in 1994 and 1995 which I don’t personally agree with having much weight

The issue is a bunch of users throw out data like PER which is just gonna be a box score composite, that’s fine but it’s about as meaningful as looking at a full box score and deciding which one is better or not. Box score composite numbers aren’t all that useful especially if you are comparing across eras

Anyways, are people are putting in career average numbers? I don’t need to explain why that’s stupid right lol.

Im not saying the PC board isn’t biased and I don’t like the patreon stat they’re using either (if ur talking about the thinking basketball one). Im saying, data wise most of the data being cited like PER/BPM/VORP/WSp48 (which dont all favor jordan obviously it’s closer esp taking into context), are genuinely garbage stats nowadays. We don’t have better data available for the 90s, which is kind of the point, but using bad data and saying “oh by we have this” is dumb too.


It’s not that the data for jordan is bad if it supports him, I think most of the data people are using in general is bad for either side of argument, a comparison of data in a time that was pre PBP data available isn’t really all too comparable.

Whenever ur comparing pre play by play people to post play by play data it revolves more around trying to figure out how good those players were individually and then comparing them, trying to find that special metric to compare them is pretty useless because the data available is pretty bad. It’s not hard to use bad data to argue either side, I don’t see the point to do that, you can evaluate how good a player is without needing to hover to the advanced section on bbref

I absolutely do think a there are people on the PC board guilty of that as well there’s a poster that thinks cp3 is better than Kobe all time lmao

Ok i didnt know you guys had a beef.

I just know that there is a guy from pc board who comes here and in his essays are mentions of some stats probably from thinking basketball, he never posts the data even after being asked multible times.
Mayby ws/48 and such are “garbage”.
But we dont have this advanced data for Jordan, but imo that doesnt really matter.

What we know is:
Jordan won more mvps, fmvps and dpoy.
He won more titles more then any other GOAT candidate not named bill russell.
All publicly available advanced metrics are better then Lebrons, not in everything but overall he ranks better.
I dont know how these other metrics bridges the gap Jordan has?

In all other sports the Greatest of all time is the one who has the best combination of:
Stats.
Winning.
Accolades.

Mayby wayne gretzky is anomaly in that he isnt on the top in stanley cups won but he has by far the best stats.

In terms of advanced metrics on bball ref, you gotta consider that he basically started going playoff mode and conserving in the RS 2014 onwards through his prime.

09, 10, 13 are basically on par with Jordan’s best 3 RS years in terms of the advanced bball ref section overall. And that basically represents 3/5 years of his prime before he took the RS less seriously. Same when you compare their best postseason runs. Jordan doesnt clearly have a better statistical profile, outside of BPM. It’s pretty even I think you can make a case for either, I’m assuming people aren’t taking career averages for those values right? That would be silly

That being said again that section sucks if you don’t have an impact component lol

[twyzted]

Yeah, do it and provide the reasons why you think these posts are biased and unreasonable.

Look at the first thread of the top 100. First page.
1 guy voted for Jordan instantly gets attacked, why would anyone spend time trying to participate in these if he gets attacked for his vote?

It wasn't "instantly" and it wasn't an "attack". By the same criteria, actually the first poster got "attacked" by having LeBron over Kareem. So much about bias...

3 hours is pretty quick on a forum………….
I was refering to the guy who voted for Jordan. The other guy wasnt attacking.

You're rewarding LeBron and downgrading Kareem (and others) due to the amount of information available.
Just doesn't seem fair to rank one player better than another partly due to the amount of information available.

There is a diffrence in questioning one thing and then just going out of your way to scrutinize a vote in a voting thread….

[70sFan]

Look at the first thread of the top 100. First page.
1 guy voted for Jordan instantly gets attacked, why would anyone spend time trying to participate in these if he gets attacked for his vote?

It wasn't "instantly" and it wasn't an "attack". By the same criteria, actually the first poster got "attacked" by having LeBron over Kareem. So much about bias...

3 hours is pretty quick on a forum………….
I was refering to the guy who voted for Jordan. The other guy wasnt attacking.

You're rewarding LeBron and downgrading Kareem (and others) due to the amount of information available.
Just doesn't seem fair to rank one player better than another partly due to the amount of information available.

There is a diffrence in questioning one thing and then just going out of your way to scrutinize a vote in a voting thread….

Sometimes the conversation is quite heated, but it wasn't a personal attack, everything in that response was related to the Jordan's voter post. I'm not a fan of aggressive discussions, but the most important thing is presented argumentation and throughout the first thread the discussion was on a very high level.

[70sFan]

I wonder why people don't call a few posters that heavily criticized Bill Russell "Russell haters". Is it fair to attack Russell, but not to do that with Jordan? Why don't you create the same thread about Russell being harshly attacked by PC Board members?

[twyzted]

This dude has gone on a few rants about posters and called me out specifically without tagging me lmao I do not even remotely care if I’m posting PMs when it is a bit that spam sent that to every poster and now just posts “wow I hate the PC board” when bro types like a failed prototype of chatgpt

You’re implying that I’m part of the project that had Lebron above Jordan and I’m not lol.

Imo, the issue is that Data driven arguments don’t exist to support jordan because of a lack of data in the first place, it’s a bit of a dumb premise and at very best you have people looking at the drop off when jordan wasn’t there in 1994 and 1995 which I don’t personally agree with having much weight

The issue is a bunch of users throw out data like PER which is just gonna be a box score composite, that’s fine but it’s about as meaningful as looking at a full box score and deciding which one is better or not. Box score composite numbers aren’t all that useful especially if you are comparing across eras

Anyways, are people are putting in career average numbers? I don’t need to explain why that’s stupid right lol.

Im not saying the PC board isn’t biased and I don’t like the patreon stat they’re using either (if ur talking about the thinking basketball one). Im saying, data wise most of the data being cited like PER/BPM/VORP/WSp48 (which dont all favor jordan obviously it’s closer esp taking into context), are genuinely garbage stats nowadays. We don’t have better data available for the 90s, which is kind of the point, but using bad data and saying “oh by we have this” is dumb too.


It’s not that the data for jordan is bad if it supports him, I think most of the data people are using in general is bad for either side of argument, a comparison of data in a time that was pre PBP data available isn’t really all too comparable.

Whenever ur comparing pre play by play people to post play by play data it revolves more around trying to figure out how good those players were individually and then comparing them, trying to find that special metric to compare them is pretty useless because the data available is pretty bad. It’s not hard to use bad data to argue either side, I don’t see the point to do that, you can evaluate how good a player is without needing to hover to the advanced section on bbref

I absolutely do think a there are people on the PC board guilty of that as well there’s a poster that thinks cp3 is better than Kobe all time lmao

Ok i didnt know you guys had a beef.

I just know that there is a guy from pc board who comes here and in his essays are mentions of some stats probably from thinking basketball, he never posts the data even after being asked multible times.
Mayby ws/48 and such are “garbage”.
But we dont have this advanced data for Jordan, but imo that doesnt really matter.

What we know is:
Jordan won more mvps, fmvps and dpoy.
He won more titles more then any other GOAT candidate not named bill russell.
All publicly available advanced metrics are better then Lebrons, not in everything but overall he ranks better.
I dont know how these other metrics bridges the gap Jordan has?

In all other sports the Greatest of all time is the one who has the best combination of:
Stats.
Winning.
Accolades.

Mayby wayne gretzky is anomaly in that he isnt on the top in stanley cups won but he has by far the best stats.

In terms of advanced metrics on bball ref, you gotta consider that he basically started going playoff mode and conserving in the RS 2014 onwards through his prime.

09, 10, 13 are basically on par with Jordan’s best 3 RS years in terms of the advanced bball ref section overall. And that basically represents 3/5 years of his prime before he took the RS less seriously. Same when you compare their best postseason runs. Jordan doesnt clearly have a better statistical profile, outside of BPM. It’s pretty even I think you can make a case for either,

09 is on par with 91 but then Jordan has 2-3 better then next best from Lebron.
Him going “playoff mode” is his decision.

I’m assuming people aren’t taking career averages for those values right? That would be silly

career avg for what?

That being said again that section sucks if you don’t have an impact component lol

It wasnt a exhaustive list.

[Jaivl]

So many wonderful quotes for a new signature, yet so little space.

[twyzted]

It wasn't "instantly" and it wasn't an "attack". By the same criteria, actually the first poster got "attacked" by having LeBron over Kareem. So much about bias...

3 hours is pretty quick on a forum………….
I was refering to the guy who voted for Jordan. The other guy wasnt attacking.

You're rewarding LeBron and downgrading Kareem (and others) due to the amount of information available.
Just doesn't seem fair to rank one player better than another partly due to the amount of information available.

There is a diffrence in questioning one thing and then just going out of your way to scrutinize a vote in a voting thread….

Sometimes the conversation is quite heated, but it wasn't a personal attack, everything in that response was related to the Jordan's voter post. I'm not a fan of aggressive discussions, but the most important thing is presented argumentation and throughout the first thread the discussion was on a very high level.

I wasnt meaning as a personal attack.
One poster even made up stats to disprove Jordan or lied about it.

[rk2023]

Yeah, there are posters who only come into the project to make it sure their man wins the number 1 spot, but it's not "yearly tradition". Last time, the second thread was the shortest out of top 10 and the one when Magic Johnson went in was way longer than the top 3 threads.

It's very easy to cry about results, but it should be very easy to provide arguments why you think this project is useless. I think you didn't even read the discussion, because the biggest value this project provides isn't a list, but an overall growth of the community knowledge by long discussion.

its simple, when 90% of the board traffic is for 1 ongoing fan thread for a specific player, its not going to be an objective community. Just like if you put up a ranking thread in the Lakers board versus Celtics board, you're going to get biased results.

You can go to almost any thread in PC board that makes it over 2 pages and CTRL+F and you'll find LeBron in there somewhere. It could be a thread about like, Damian Lillard vs Rajon Rondo or George Mikan vs Victor Wembanyama or whatever, literally anything. If it gets any kind of traction there will be someone fitting in some reason to talk about LeBron.

This quote bout PC is very exact, I can't tell better.

"The same board that has threads going hundreds of pages about LeBron each year even when he is missing the playoffs? It's the LeBron board. No one who knows what is going on takes it seriously. Any real discussion around here takes place on the General Board

+1 to everything about the PC board. What a fall from grace. That was - by far - my favorite board for years. There are still some great posters there, but man, the current top 100 discussion is a tough read. A bunch of dudes working backwards from "I want LeBron to be the best" and patting themselves on thr back once they've found some path they can argue in bad faith. Talking about how the conversation around LeBron vs. Jordan has shifted because some thread made up of mostly posters from the dedicated LeBron thread favors LeBron. Zero self-awareness.

There are definitely some solid arguments on the LeBron side but that thread is mostly going with "LeBron looks great with these metrics, we don't have them for MJ, and since he's my favorite player, LeBron must have been better".."

There were 15 first place votes for James on the project, what’s a precise count you have in regards to how many of the votes came from bad faith argument at first or eventually, and why?

[MyUniBroDavis]

Ok i didnt know you guys had a beef.

I just know that there is a guy from pc board who comes here and in his essays are mentions of some stats probably from thinking basketball, he never posts the data even after being asked multible times.
Mayby ws/48 and such are “garbage”.
But we dont have this advanced data for Jordan, but imo that doesnt really matter.

What we know is:
Jordan won more mvps, fmvps and dpoy.
He won more titles more then any other GOAT candidate not named bill russell.
All publicly available advanced metrics are better then Lebrons, not in everything but overall he ranks better.
I dont know how these other metrics bridges the gap Jordan has?

In all other sports the Greatest of all time is the one who has the best combination of:
Stats.
Winning.
Accolades.

Mayby wayne gretzky is anomaly in that he isnt on the top in stanley cups won but he has by far the best stats.

In terms of advanced metrics on bball ref, you gotta consider that he basically started going playoff mode and conserving in the RS 2014 onwards through his prime.

09, 10, 13 are basically on par with Jordan’s best 3 RS years in terms of the advanced bball ref section overall. And that basically represents 3/5 years of his prime before he took the RS less seriously. Same when you compare their best postseason runs. Jordan doesnt clearly have a better statistical profile, outside of BPM. It’s pretty even I think you can make a case for either,

09 is on par with 91 but then Jordan has 2-3 better then next best from Lebron.
Him going “playoff mode” is his decision.

I’m assuming people aren’t taking career averages for those values right? That would be silly

career avg for what?

That being said again that section sucks if you don’t have an impact component lol

It wasnt a exhaustive list.

Nah this isn’t true, their 3 best regular season years are basically all in the same level, in terms of PER/WSp48/BPM, VORP is where jordan has a bit of an advantage, playoffs wise brons best years have better VORP and PER, Jordan BPM is better and win shares per 48 basically equal. Pretty sure their individual off and def rtg are about the same and brons a bit better in the postseason but that’s not the actual off and def rtg

The thing is all of this data absolutely and completely sucks and has no value in them and that’s kind of the point lol, so this is meaningless, Regardless of who it favors, because in the year 2023 no one should be seriously using any of this data if they know how to use basketball data at all.

It is impossible to have an impact component pre 1997 because play by play data doesn’t exist, so saying it’s exhaustive or not does not matter. the data that is available for cross era comparisons directly sucks, nor does it point out jordan being clearly superior (or vice versa). All it really says is their primes were pretty similar

[twyzted]

Yeah, do it and provide the reasons why you think these posts are biased and unreasonable.

Look at the first thread of the top 100. First page.
1 guy voted for Jordan instantly gets attacked, why would anyone spend time trying to participate in these if he gets attacked for his vote?

It wasn't "instantly" and it wasn't an "attack". By the same criteria, actually the first poster got "attacked" by having LeBron over Kareem. So much about bias...

In the first 60 posts there are 22 responses to the only guy who voted for Jordan, he has post #8 so in 52 posts ~40% of it is arguing with a guy who didnt vote for Lebron.

But ofcourse not biased in any way

[twyzted]

In terms of advanced metrics on bball ref, you gotta consider that he basically started going playoff mode and conserving in the RS 2014 onwards through his prime.

09, 10, 13 are basically on par with Jordan’s best 3 RS years in terms of the advanced bball ref section overall. And that basically represents 3/5 years of his prime before he took the RS less seriously. Same when you compare their best postseason runs. Jordan doesnt clearly have a better statistical profile, outside of BPM. It’s pretty even I think you can make a case for either,

09 is on par with 91 but then Jordan has 2-3 better then next best from Lebron.
Him going “playoff mode” is his decision.

I’m assuming people aren’t taking career averages for those values right? That would be silly

career avg for what?

That being said again that section sucks if you don’t have an impact component lol

It wasnt a exhaustive list.

Nah this isn’t true, their 3 best regular season years are basically all in the same level, in terms of PER/WSp48/BPM, VORP is where jordan has a bit of an advantage, playoffs wise brons best years have better VORP and PER, Jordan BPM is better and win shares per 48 basically equal. Pretty sure their individual off and def rtg are about the same and brons a bit better in the postseason but that’s not the actual off and def rtg

The thing is all of this data absolutely and completely sucks and has no value in them and that’s kind of the point lol, so this is meaningless, Regardless of who it favors, because in the year 2023 no one should be seriously using any of this data if they know how to use basketball data at all.

It is impossible to have an impact component pre 1997 because play by play data doesn’t exist, so saying it’s exhaustive or not does not matter. the data that is available for cross era comparisons directly sucks, nor does it point out jordan being clearly superior (or vice versa). All it really says is their primes were pretty similar

Well if advanced metrics suck.
Jordan is clear

[MavsDirk41]

Probably that he, that coach and that team earned that status together. It says a lot that you can't understand that simple concept. Phil Jackson was no where near the greatest coach when he first started coaching the Bulls, and that Bulls roster was no where near the best in the league. the front office built a solid team around MJ over time.

common sense.

So, why isn't Bill Russell GOAT?
I think that falls in your Common sense section no?

Lol all you want to talk about is his first 7 years in Cleveland. Its hilarious man. You act like he hasnt played with a bunch of allstars the past 13 years. Did he make Wade, Bosh, Love, Irving, Davis, and Westbrook better lol? Did he make Ball, Kuzma, and Ingram better?

Do you understand that Jordan played most of his career with Pippen? He didnt bounce around playing with his friends or other allstars like James. He built something called a dynasty. Kind of like Magic in LA. Bird in Boston. Duncan in San Antonio. Jordan wasnt a mercenary like James. James wouldnt know anything about a dynasty.

How did James do in LA without begging for Davis to come play with him. Pretty sure he missed the playoffs.

“Your not built for this” - thats awesome man lol

No one said LeBron didn't play with all stars.
I simply stated he could win with our without stacked team, when MJ couldn't, but you fail to answer why MJ couldn't or even understand the question for that matter.

You just don't know basketball if you think LeBron did not make any of his teammates better, gotta be better than just a hater man.
Kyrie and Love, Bosh, Davis do anything without Bron? LOL

SO MJ and Pippen played together most of their careers right, how come when they didn't play together, Pippen made deep playoff runs, but MJ didn't? Maybe you'll understand the question better phrased that way, but I bet you'll dodge it cause you not built like that.

Yeah LeBron missed the playoffs, but he got injured when his team was 4th or 5th in the conference. But lets blame that on him for your sake. Still won a chip in LA tho.

What did MJ do in Washington with Pippen again? Oh, let me guess, you'll dodge the question, cause like I said, you not built like that.

Having a muscular winnie the pooh avatar and being a MJ hater just points to you being young and uneducated, you fit the bill. Most people that support Lebron as GOAT still have MJ as #2 or at least #3, you act like he's garbage.

Aww, resulting in personal jabs, cause you in your feelings, that's Ok, I understand.

Just in case you didn't know, MJ is my GOAT, I grew up watching the Bulls.
But, unlike delusional MJ lovers like yourself, I know MJ wasn't without Flaws.

Let's breakdown how delusional you are below.

Lebron had
Wade + Bosh

Who was Jordans Bosh? No one

Then Lebron had Kyrie and Love

So Grant, and Rodman were just regular folks right?
That same Grant that help bounce MJ when he returned in 95?
That same Rodman, MJ recruited to help beat the Magic in 96, while Grant playing only Game 1 of the series?

Problem with your type is how you prop up MJ like he did everything, and diminish everything his teammates did.

And don't tell me Lebron didn't have great role players as previously mentioned all time great 3 point shooters like Ray Allen. You have to really reach to try to put Lebron's career above Jordan.

So MJ didn't have 2 Top 75 players playing with him right?
He didn't have 6th man of the year Toni Kukoc?
He didn't have career 20 pt scorer Ron Harper pre chicago right?
He didn't have 3pt marksman Steve Kerr?
He didn't have Horace Grant, BJ Armstrong, John Paxson right?

Another example of diminishing players MJ played with.

It's sad that you being old and educated think the way you do. It must be that hatred for Lebron. He lives in your mind rent free everyday I bet.
Its a shame really for people that say they old and grew up watching the Bulls to prop up only MJ and diminish everyone else around him.

Let's get back to your other points, so I don't miss them.

Try to hype up the Bulls team as much as you want and Pippen, but Jordan won all 6 MVPs, 6-0. Lebron stands at 4-6. Lebron was the one who went ring chasing and teamed with Bosh and Wade in Miami, then went back to Cleveland with Kyrie and had Love trade in hand, then got AD in L.A.. Lebron failed when he didn't have at least one other superstar, usually two. And I still put Lebron as a top 5 player but he is not better than MJ Magic. I'd put Tim Duncan over him 5-1 could have gone 6-0 without a miracle Ray Allen 3 (that also saved Lebron's legacy or else he'd be 3-7 lol) Other than MJ and Pippen the Bulls had role players, role players do not compare to superstars.

Lebron also won with AD in the bubble which was kind of a joke playoffs that teams such as the Clippers didn't want to play in because they had to live in the bubble for months.

MJ was unquestionably the best player during Bulls run, hence why he won 6 MVPS.
But other than points, I believe Scottie led the team in almost all other categories during the dynasty.

LeBron did team up with Wade and Bosh, that is a fact. But he has shown he can make deep playoff runs no matter who he played with. We simply can't say that for MJ.

MJ also failed without Pippen or Phil, or stacked team. At least LeBron was getting past the first round LOL.

It looks like you base your GOAT based on championships only.
Why isnt Bill Russell on top then?
Very simple minded way of thinking.

I guess we'll Blame LeBron for clippers not wanting to play in the bubble. LOL.

James made the finals in 07 with Cleveland and the conference finals in 09 with Cleveland. He wasnt playing Birds Celtics or the back to back champion Bad Boy Pistons either. When Pippen left Chicago in 98 he played a year in Houston with Barkley and Hakeem. He then spent 4 years in Portland with Rasheed Wallace, Steve Smith, Sabonis, and Damon Stoudamire. He was never the best player while in Portland and those teams had some great talent with good depth. The only year Pippen made a deep playoff run without Jordan was 94. The only year Pippen was the best player on his team was 94. He was in 95 until Jordan came back in mid March. The Bulls were something like 34-31 when Jordan came back and they finished 13-4 with Jordan.

Dont use injury excuses for James in 19. Jordan only played 60 games for Washington his first year there. I guess only James gets an excuse for being injured. The Lakers were a .500 team when James did play that year. Nobody said Jordan is flawless but i know he didnt choke away a chance at a title.

[MavsDirk41]

This dude has gone on a few rants about posters and called me out specifically without tagging me lmao I do not even remotely care if I’m posting PMs when it is a bit that spam sent that to every poster and now just posts “wow I hate the PC board” when bro types like a failed prototype of chatgpt

You’re implying that I’m part of the project that had Lebron above Jordan and I’m not lol.

Imo, the issue is that Data driven arguments don’t exist to support jordan because of a lack of data in the first place, it’s a bit of a dumb premise and at very best you have people looking at the drop off when jordan wasn’t there in 1994 and 1995 which I don’t personally agree with having much weight

The issue is a bunch of users throw out data like PER which is just gonna be a box score composite, that’s fine but it’s about as meaningful as looking at a full box score and deciding which one is better or not. Box score composite numbers aren’t all that useful especially if you are comparing across eras

Anyways, are people are putting in career average numbers? I don’t need to explain why that’s stupid right lol.

Im not saying the PC board isn’t biased and I don’t like the patreon stat they’re using either (if ur talking about the thinking basketball one). Im saying, data wise most of the data being cited like PER/BPM/VORP/WSp48 (which dont all favor jordan obviously it’s closer esp taking into context), are genuinely garbage stats nowadays. We don’t have better data available for the 90s, which is kind of the point, but using bad data and saying “oh by we have this” is dumb too.


It’s not that the data for jordan is bad if it supports him, I think most of the data people are using in general is bad for either side of argument, a comparison of data in a time that was pre PBP data available isn’t really all too comparable.

Whenever ur comparing pre play by play people to post play by play data it revolves more around trying to figure out how good those players were individually and then comparing them, trying to find that special metric to compare them is pretty useless because the data available is pretty bad. It’s not hard to use bad data to argue either side, I don’t see the point to do that, you can evaluate how good a player is without needing to hover to the advanced section on bbref

I absolutely do think a there are people on the PC board guilty of that as well there’s a poster that thinks cp3 is better than Kobe all time lmao

Ok i didnt know you guys had a beef.

I just know that there is a guy from pc board who comes here and in his essays are mentions of some stats probably from thinking basketball, he never posts the data even after being asked multible times.
Mayby ws/48 and such are “garbage”.
But we dont have this advanced data for Jordan, but imo that doesnt really matter.

What we know is:
Jordan won more mvps, fmvps and dpoy.
He won more titles more then any other GOAT candidate not named bill russell.
All publicly available advanced metrics are better then Lebrons, not in everything but overall he ranks better.
I dont know how these other metrics bridges the gap Jordan has?

In all other sports the Greatest of all time is the one who has the best combination of:
Stats.
Winning.
Accolades.

Mayby wayne gretzky is anomaly in that he isnt on the top in stanley cups won but he has by far the best stats.

In terms of advanced metrics on bball ref, you gotta consider that he basically started going playoff mode and conserving in the RS 2014 onwards through his prime.

09, 10, 13 are basically on par with Jordan’s best 3 RS years in terms of the advanced bball ref section overall. And that basically represents 3/5 years of his prime before he took the RS less seriously. Same when you compare their best postseason runs. Jordan doesnt clearly have a better statistical profile, outside of BPM. It’s pretty even I think you can make a case for either, I’m assuming people aren’t taking career averages for those values right? That would be silly

That being said again that section sucks if you don’t have an impact component lol

Conserving in the RS lol. Can you imagine being conservative with his energy level during the RS to save himself for the playoffs? Bird, Magic either lol?

[MyUniBroDavis]

Ok i didnt know you guys had a beef.

I just know that there is a guy from pc board who comes here and in his essays are mentions of some stats probably from thinking basketball, he never posts the data even after being asked multible times.
Mayby ws/48 and such are “garbage”.
But we dont have this advanced data for Jordan, but imo that doesnt really matter.

What we know is:
Jordan won more mvps, fmvps and dpoy.
He won more titles more then any other GOAT candidate not named bill russell.
All publicly available advanced metrics are better then Lebrons, not in everything but overall he ranks better.
I dont know how these other metrics bridges the gap Jordan has?

In all other sports the Greatest of all time is the one who has the best combination of:
Stats.
Winning.
Accolades.

Mayby wayne gretzky is anomaly in that he isnt on the top in stanley cups won but he has by far the best stats.

In terms of advanced metrics on bball ref, you gotta consider that he basically started going playoff mode and conserving in the RS 2014 onwards through his prime.

09, 10, 13 are basically on par with Jordan’s best 3 RS years in terms of the advanced bball ref section overall. And that basically represents 3/5 years of his prime before he took the RS less seriously. Same when you compare their best postseason runs. Jordan doesnt clearly have a better statistical profile, outside of BPM. It’s pretty even I think you can make a case for either, I’m assuming people aren’t taking career averages for those values right? That would be silly

That being said again that section sucks if you don’t have an impact component lol

Conserving in the RS lol. Can you imagine being conservative with his energy level during the RS to save himself for the playoffs? Bird, Magic either lol?

There’s no incentive to go all in, in the RS if ur both a top seed level team or if it’s not realistic to get the top seed in the overall league if ur #1 in ur conference. Everyone does this now lol

[WarriorGM]

In terms of advanced metrics on bball ref, you gotta consider that he basically started going playoff mode and conserving in the RS 2014 onwards through his prime.

09, 10, 13 are basically on par with Jordan’s best 3 RS years in terms of the advanced bball ref section overall. And that basically represents 3/5 years of his prime before he took the RS less seriously. Same when you compare their best postseason runs. Jordan doesnt clearly have a better statistical profile, outside of BPM. It’s pretty even I think you can make a case for either, I’m assuming people aren’t taking career averages for those values right? That would be silly

That being said again that section sucks if you don’t have an impact component lol

Conserving in the RS lol. Can you imagine being conservative with his energy level during the RS to save himself for the playoffs? Bird, Magic either lol?

There’s no incentive to go all in, in the RS if ur both a top seed level team or if it’s not realistic to get the top seed in the overall league if ur #1 in ur conference. Everyone does this now lol

Why don't they go all-in? Because it is more difficult. No incentive? Aside from impressing people looking at their accomplishments afterward. But that is exactly what we are doing.

[MavsDirk41]

In terms of advanced metrics on bball ref, you gotta consider that he basically started going playoff mode and conserving in the RS 2014 onwards through his prime.

09, 10, 13 are basically on par with Jordan’s best 3 RS years in terms of the advanced bball ref section overall. And that basically represents 3/5 years of his prime before he took the RS less seriously. Same when you compare their best postseason runs. Jordan doesnt clearly have a better statistical profile, outside of BPM. It’s pretty even I think you can make a case for either, I’m assuming people aren’t taking career averages for those values right? That would be silly

That being said again that section sucks if you don’t have an impact component lol

Conserving in the RS lol. Can you imagine being conservative with his energy level during the RS to save himself for the playoffs? Bird, Magic either lol?

There’s no incentive to go all in, in the RS if ur both a top seed level team or if it’s not realistic to get the top seed in the overall league if ur #1 in ur conference. Everyone does this now lol

Well i guess not everyone is built in the mold of a Jordan, Bird, or Magic. Those guys didnt conserve energy just cause its a RS game lol. If they were on the court they gave full effort.

[twyzted]

Probably that he, that coach and that team earned that status together. It says a lot that you can't understand that simple concept. Phil Jackson was no where near the greatest coach when he first started coaching the Bulls, and that Bulls roster was no where near the best in the league. the front office built a solid team around MJ over time.

common sense.

So, why isn't Bill Russell GOAT?
I think that falls in your Common sense section no?

Lol all you want to talk about is his first 7 years in Cleveland. Its hilarious man. You act like he hasnt played with a bunch of allstars the past 13 years. Did he make Wade, Bosh, Love, Irving, Davis, and Westbrook better lol? Did he make Ball, Kuzma, and Ingram better?

Do you understand that Jordan played most of his career with Pippen? He didnt bounce around playing with his friends or other allstars like James. He built something called a dynasty. Kind of like Magic in LA. Bird in Boston. Duncan in San Antonio. Jordan wasnt a mercenary like James. James wouldnt know anything about a dynasty.

How did James do in LA without begging for Davis to come play with him. Pretty sure he missed the playoffs.

“Your not built for this” - thats awesome man lol

No one said LeBron didn't play with all stars.
I simply stated he could win with our without stacked team, when MJ couldn't, but you fail to answer why MJ couldn't or even understand the question for that matter.

You just don't know basketball if you think LeBron did not make any of his teammates better, gotta be better than just a hater man.
Kyrie and Love, Bosh, Davis do anything without Bron? LOL

SO MJ and Pippen played together most of their careers right, how come when they didn't play together, Pippen made deep playoff runs, but MJ didn't? Maybe you'll understand the question better phrased that way, but I bet you'll dodge it cause you not built like that.

Yeah LeBron missed the playoffs, but he got injured when his team was 4th or 5th in the conference. But lets blame that on him for your sake. Still won a chip in LA tho.

What did MJ do in Washington with Pippen again? Oh, let me guess, you'll dodge the question, cause like I said, you not built like that.

Having a muscular winnie the pooh avatar and being a MJ hater just points to you being young and uneducated, you fit the bill. Most people that support Lebron as GOAT still have MJ as #2 or at least #3, you act like he's garbage.

Aww, resulting in personal jabs, cause you in your feelings, that's Ok, I understand.

Just in case you didn't know, MJ is my GOAT, I grew up watching the Bulls.
But, unlike delusional MJ lovers like yourself, I know MJ wasn't without Flaws.

Let's breakdown how delusional you are below.

Lebron had
Wade + Bosh

Who was Jordans Bosh? No one

Then Lebron had Kyrie and Love

So Grant, and Rodman were just regular folks right?
That same Grant that help bounce MJ when he returned in 95?
That same Rodman, MJ recruited to help beat the Magic in 96, while Grant playing only Game 1 of the series?

Problem with your type is how you prop up MJ like he did everything, and diminish everything his teammates did.

And don't tell me Lebron didn't have great role players as previously mentioned all time great 3 point shooters like Ray Allen. You have to really reach to try to put Lebron's career above Jordan.

So MJ didn't have 2 Top 75 players playing with him right?
He didn't have 6th man of the year Toni Kukoc?
He didn't have career 20 pt scorer Ron Harper pre chicago right?
He didn't have 3pt marksman Steve Kerr?
He didn't have Horace Grant, BJ Armstrong, John Paxson right?

Another example of diminishing players MJ played with.

It's sad that you being old and educated think the way you do. It must be that hatred for Lebron. He lives in your mind rent free everyday I bet.
Its a shame really for people that say they old and grew up watching the Bulls to prop up only MJ and diminish everyone else around him.

Let's get back to your other points, so I don't miss them.

Try to hype up the Bulls team as much as you want and Pippen, but Jordan won all 6 MVPs, 6-0. Lebron stands at 4-6. Lebron was the one who went ring chasing and teamed with Bosh and Wade in Miami, then went back to Cleveland with Kyrie and had Love trade in hand, then got AD in L.A.. Lebron failed when he didn't have at least one other superstar, usually two. And I still put Lebron as a top 5 player but he is not better than MJ Magic. I'd put Tim Duncan over him 5-1 could have gone 6-0 without a miracle Ray Allen 3 (that also saved Lebron's legacy or else he'd be 3-7 lol) Other than MJ and Pippen the Bulls had role players, role players do not compare to superstars.

Lebron also won with AD in the bubble which was kind of a joke playoffs that teams such as the Clippers didn't want to play in because they had to live in the bubble for months.

MJ was unquestionably the best player during Bulls run, hence why he won 6 MVPS.
But other than points, I believe Scottie led the team in almost all other categories during the dynasty.

LeBron did team up with Wade and Bosh, that is a fact. But he has shown he can make deep playoff runs no matter who he played with. We simply can't say that for MJ.

MJ also failed without Pippen or Phil, or stacked team. At least LeBron was getting past the first round LOL.

It looks like you base your GOAT based on championships only.
Why isnt Bill Russell on top then?
Very simple minded way of thinking.

I guess we'll Blame LeBron for clippers not wanting to play in the bubble. LOL.

James made the finals in 07 with Cleveland and the conference finals in 09 with Cleveland. He wasnt playing Birds Celtics or the back to back champion Bad Boy Pistons either. When Pippen left Chicago in 98 he played a year in Houston with Barkley and Hakeem. He then spent 4 years in Portland with Rasheed Wallace, Steve Smith, Sabonis, and Damon Stoudamire. He was never the best player while in Portland and those teams had some great talent with good depth. The only year Pippen made a deep playoff run without Jordan was 94. The only year Pippen was the best player on his team was 94. He was in 95 until Jordan came back in mid March. The Bulls were something like 34-31 when Jordan came back and they finished 13-4 with Jordan.

Dont use injury excuses for James in 19. Jordan only played 60 games for Washington his first year there. I guess only James gets an excuse for being injured. The Lakers were a .500 team when James did play that year. Nobody said Jordan is flawless but i know he didnt choke away a chance at a title.

Im gonna guess that if Jordan started his career in the Leastern conference he wouldve had more success.

If you examine the SRS of playoff teams in each conference since 2000–01, the disparity becomes very clear. Playoff teams in the West have averaged an SRS of 4.19 over the past 20 seasons, while East playoff teams have averaged 1.99. A 1.99 SRS in the East is (as you might expect), good enough for a 4 seed. But it barely gets you into the Western Conference playoffs.

Yikes