What's the strongest data-driven argument for Michael Jordan as GOAT?

[MavsDirk41]

Jordan fanboys in shambles because the real GOAT is returning for another season. Sad to see.

Lol Dirk outplayed James in the finals man come on

[ShaqAttac]

Jordan fanboys in shambles because the real GOAT is returning for another season. Sad to see.

literally invadin the pc coz their idol got cooked. cryin bout numbers when its got to do with dubs. spammin that **** when its just pee pee gee and steals. box-score merchants built different.

Every stat or achievement favors Jordan lol

Does PER count?
BPM?
RAPTOR?
Championships?
RS winning pct?
Postseason winning pct?
League mvps?
DPOY awards?

What proves James is better?

so box-score n whatever u be cherrypickin?

bro made a full-ass case in the top 10 thread n u ran off. Why you actin all confident now

[rk2023]

How 90s are binded with Jordan being GOAT?
In soccer for me Pele (and Messi after WC I suppose) is GOAT, in hockey - Gretzky, in tennis - Nadal, in chess - Carlsen, in MMA - Jon Jones, in boxing - Roy Jones, in table tennis - Ma Long ect... All sportsmans from different eras... Your logic is very primitive. LeBron is just not near good basketball player prime Jordan was. He has just longevity over him. Like Cristiano Ronaldo have only longevity over Pele or Messi in football.

And your all time picks are primitive.

Ovechkin is the greatest goal scorer and NHL history, if you understand how far goals per game are down relative to Grektzy's era. Crosby is more skilled, all around, than Gretzky ever was. Roy Jones? Over Tyson, Ali, Foreman, Sugar Ray Robinson? Surely you're joking, right? Nadal over Fed and Lendl? Nadal has zero serve and volley game/net game. He'd be toast playing in Lendl's era, where players had to play specialists, AND had to master 4 surfaces, not 3 (and, the surfaces were far more heterogeneous, also).

People who genuflect blindly at the altar of Jordan are usually 40+ and almost always totally blinded by nostalgia. The guy was/is a terrible person, a ****** teammate, and played in an expansion league where more than half of the teams were below .500.

He's overrated tremendously by the average fan.

Jordan's teams went 126-27 (.824) against the six expansion teams 1989-1998 (Heat, Hornets, Grizzlies, Magic, Timberwolves, Hornets). That wouldn't and couldn't happen today.

1989-1998 there were:

-16 of 29 teams (55%) during Jordan's prime below .500
-There were 10 of 29 teams (34%) under .400
-2 under .300 (!) winning percentage

The last 10 years, that % is:
-12 of 30 teams under .500
-3 out of 30 teams (10%) under .400
-0 out of 30 teams under .300 (the worst team, Magic, are at .361)

That's a garbage league he played in.

The game is much more evolved than it was in 1998. That's what you don't seem to understand. At all.

And, you've proposed literally nothing to disabuse people of their belief that LeBron has been greater, and, for longer.

My picks are not binded to any era, its important. For me, your picks are much more primitive, but I dont argue it here, I argue your primitive logic about nostalgia, not your or mine GOAT picks. You just seems to dont understand that both your primitive conceptions are wrong - that todays era so much srtonger and that even if its stronger this automatically make any todays player better.

I dont need to propose you anything - its you need to propose that much lesser players like LeBron who had worse prime, peak and won less are not worse than MJ. You proposed nothing, only baseless claims about mythical nostalgia, its true. Just a shame. Just one more 15 old fanboy with shameless statements. No worries, I will not answer you anymore and will not touch your young ego.

Notice how this whole time, Ty never made the direct Jordan and James comparison? I’ve known him for a while and he’s certainly not a James fanboy - as you’re certainly been trying to label anybody who you come across. As acquaintances, I’m aware he prefers Wilt as his GOAT - while also being high on Tim Duncan, Bird, Jokic, Big O, West, amongst prominent figures in tennis and baseball. He’s certainly not 15 years old, neither am I (23), nor are many of the posters you are choosing to ‘highlight’ - most likely. The only person acting like a 15 year old fanboy is yourself by having a, now, 3 day temper tantrum over a project you weren’t even involved in just because you didn’t get your outcome. Not to mention tossing out labels and ad-hominems every other post, then ignoring anything which calls you out on such behavior.

[MavsDirk41]

literally invadin the pc coz their idol got cooked. cryin bout numbers when its got to do with dubs. spammin that **** when its just pee pee gee and steals. box-score merchants built different.

Every stat or achievement favors Jordan lol

Does PER count?
BPM?
RAPTOR?
Championships?
RS winning pct?
Postseason winning pct?
League mvps?
DPOY awards?

What proves James is better?

so box-score n whatever u be cherrypickin?

bro made a full-ass case in the top 10 thread n u ran off. Why you actin all confident now

Since when are championships, finals mvps, league mvps, all defensive awards, defensive player of the year awards, scoring titles, and steals titles box scores? Show me something that favors James over Jordan…im sure there are a couple things. But i can find stats that favor Kareem over Jordan and James. I can find stats that favor Wilt or Russell over them too. Show me a boatload of stats/accolades that prove James is the goat. Anything that does is based on longevity. Funny cause ESPN, CBS dont have James as the goat. I ran off lol? There is nothing on the lebron james board that proves is the goat man. The last poll on the board here didnt have ole chosen as the goat.

[ShaqAttac]

Every stat or achievement favors Jordan lol

Does PER count?
BPM?
RAPTOR?
Championships?
RS winning pct?
Postseason winning pct?
League mvps?
DPOY awards?

What proves James is better?

so box-score n whatever u be cherrypickin?

bro made a full-ass case in the top 10 thread n u ran off. Why you actin all confident now

Since when are championships, finals mvps, league mvps, all defensive awards, defensive player of the year awards, scoring titles, and steals titles box scores? Show me something that favors James over Jordan…im sure there are a couple things. But i can find stats that favor Kareem over Jordan and James. I can find stats that favor Wilt or Russell over them too. Show me a boatload of stats/accolades that prove James is the goat. Anything that does is based on longevity. Funny cause ESPN, CBS dont have James as the goat. I ran off lol? There is nothing on the lebron james board that proves is the goat man. The last poll on the board here didnt have ole chosen as the goat.

i mean

Lebron has been the best player on his team for nineteen or twenty seasons, which is absolutely unparalleled. Even if you only look at the standard of “best player on a playoff team”, I am not sure whether anyone can top the resultant fifteen or sixteen. Top eight team, not sure anyone can top the resultant fourteen or fifteen. He has been my personal pick for league’s best player ten times, on par with Russell (~eleven but with uncertainty in 1958, 1962, 1964, 1966, and 1968) and Kareem (nine to thirteen depending on how we feel about 1970, 1977, 1981, and 1982). He narrowly trails Russell in career RealGM Player of the Year shares, which seems appropriate.

Lebron is the all-time leader in MVP shares. He is tied for most all-star appearances (almost certain to be sole holder next season), with the clear most as starter. He has the clears most all-NBA selections and all-NBA first team selections (and he would have the most even if forwards only had one spot), as well as the most combined first and second team selections. He has led all-NBA voting the most times (nine). He has led all-star voting the most times (ten), which I mention not as a “win” over Kareem or Russell but more because it is an interesting advantage over other similarly or more popular players. For as much as those can be attributed to “longevity”, he is also securely the most valuable APM player of the databall era by basically any measure, with few indications that the other perimetre player in this competition could push him.

He has been the best player on title teams for three separate franchises, with three separate coaches and three distinct rosters. In the postseason, he leads everyone in:

- wins
- road wins
- series wins
- road series wins
- series wins as an SRS underdog
- games played
- minutes played
- points

He is also top twelve in appearances outright (Stockton/Malone at 19, Duncan/Kareem at 18, and Shaq/Kidd/Parker at 17). He has the second highest playoff road win percentage among anyone in the consensus top twelve (Magic). He has the third highest playoff win percentage among anyone in the consensus top twelve (Magic and Jordan). He has the most consecutive series with a road playoff win. He has the second best road series win percentage, with five times the sample as Russell’s 3-1 record.

He has led six top 50 relative playoff teams (four titles plus 2009 and 2017), which is the same number as Jordan — and he had a better on-court and on/off rating than Jordan did across those respective six teams, despite false claims about his inability to lead teams to similar ceilings. He is tied for the third most conference finals (behind Kareem and Russell), and he is tied with Kareem for second most finals (with three of Kareem’s coming as a tertiary figure).

I see him as the player with the top career, top prime, top title peak, top runner-up peak, top conference finalist peak… This is just Lebron for me, and outside of ring-counting I do not see a real case for any other non-big. Others will make more of a data-focused case, and for posterity I encourage them to do so, but to an extent that preaches to the choir (so to speak) because anyone disagreeing is not interested in the cold data to a significant extent. And because Kareem and Russell are the two I see as his true rivals in career status, I am more interested in taking approaches that to some extent give them equivalent points of comparison.

theres also all the stuff kd listed when he capped ya.

mj is literally just bootleg russell

and by da "Impaact" bro gets smoked by bron, cap, n russ

[cupcakesnake]

(and whoever else has been involved in this!)

This isn't a thread to air grievances about other discussions on other boards. This isn't a thread to attack fan bases of specific players. This whole interaction has been beyond derailing. Stick around if you want to talk about the subject of discussion. Stop posting here if you want to want to air grievances or be involved in petty squabbles. You know I'm serious when I used words like "petty" and "squabbles". This is a general warning for anyone involved in this. Being quoted here isn't me blaming you for it, I just tried to quote a few people who have been involved on either side.

[Gregoire]

Michael Jordan is basketball, there are no ifs and or buts about it. LeBron failed to replace his name, the only question now is who will try to do it next. And that isn't talking any crap about LeBron, most people think he is #2 of all time which is insane and impressive in its own right.

Exactly. I think Lebron himself and his fans need to be very pleasant that their idol is second best player EVER. Its quite a great archievement.

[Yank3525]

Michael Jordan is basketball, there are no ifs and or buts about it. LeBron failed to replace his name, the only question now is who will try to do it next. And that isn't talking any crap about LeBron, most people think he is #2 of all time which is insane and impressive in its own right.

Exactly. I think Lebron himself and his fans need to be very pleasant that their idol is second best player EVER. Its quite a great archievement.

They are mad because the public doesn’t cares about the order after one. It is Mike then everyone else.

[MavsDirk41]

so box-score n whatever u be cherrypickin?

bro made a full-ass case in the top 10 thread n u ran off. Why you actin all confident now

Since when are championships, finals mvps, league mvps, all defensive awards, defensive player of the year awards, scoring titles, and steals titles box scores? Show me something that favors James over Jordan…im sure there are a couple things. But i can find stats that favor Kareem over Jordan and James. I can find stats that favor Wilt or Russell over them too. Show me a boatload of stats/accolades that prove James is the goat. Anything that does is based on longevity. Funny cause ESPN, CBS dont have James as the goat. I ran off lol? There is nothing on the lebron james board that proves is the goat man. The last poll on the board here didnt have ole chosen as the goat.

i mean

Lebron has been the best player on his team for nineteen or twenty seasons, which is absolutely unparalleled. Even if you only look at the standard of “best player on a playoff team”, I am not sure whether anyone can top the resultant fifteen or sixteen. Top eight team, not sure anyone can top the resultant fourteen or fifteen. He has been my personal pick for league’s best player ten times, on par with Russell (~eleven but with uncertainty in 1958, 1962, 1964, 1966, and 1968) and Kareem (nine to thirteen depending on how we feel about 1970, 1977, 1981, and 1982). He narrowly trails Russell in career RealGM Player of the Year shares, which seems appropriate.

Lebron is the all-time leader in MVP shares. He is tied for most all-star appearances (almost certain to be sole holder next season), with the clear most as starter. He has the clears most all-NBA selections and all-NBA first team selections (and he would have the most even if forwards only had one spot), as well as the most combined first and second team selections. He has led all-NBA voting the most times (nine). He has led all-star voting the most times (ten), which I mention not as a “win” over Kareem or Russell but more because it is an interesting advantage over other similarly or more popular players. For as much as those can be attributed to “longevity”, he is also securely the most valuable APM player of the databall era by basically any measure, with few indications that the other perimetre player in this competition could push him.

He has been the best player on title teams for three separate franchises, with three separate coaches and three distinct rosters. In the postseason, he leads everyone in:

- wins
- road wins
- series wins
- road series wins
- series wins as an SRS underdog
- games played
- minutes played
- points

He is also top twelve in appearances outright (Stockton/Malone at 19, Duncan/Kareem at 18, and Shaq/Kidd/Parker at 17). He has the second highest playoff road win percentage among anyone in the consensus top twelve (Magic). He has the third highest playoff win percentage among anyone in the consensus top twelve (Magic and Jordan). He has the most consecutive series with a road playoff win. He has the second best road series win percentage, with five times the sample as Russell’s 3-1 record.

He has led six top 50 relative playoff teams (four titles plus 2009 and 2017), which is the same number as Jordan — and he had a better on-court and on/off rating than Jordan did across those respective six teams, despite false claims about his inability to lead teams to similar ceilings. He is tied for the third most conference finals (behind Kareem and Russell), and he is tied with Kareem for second most finals (with three of Kareem’s coming as a tertiary figure).

I see him as the player with the top career, top prime, top title peak, top runner-up peak, top conference finalist peak… This is just Lebron for me, and outside of ring-counting I do not see a real case for any other non-big. Others will make more of a data-focused case, and for posterity I encourage them to do so, but to an extent that preaches to the choir (so to speak) because anyone disagreeing is not interested in the cold data to a significant extent. And because Kareem and Russell are the two I see as his true rivals in career status, I am more interested in taking approaches that to some extent give them equivalent points of comparison.

theres also all the stuff kd listed when he capped ya.

mj is literally just bootleg russell

and by da "Impaact" bro gets smoked by bron, cap, n russ

Are you kidding me lol? All of that is longevity based man lol! All time leader in mvp shares? Longevity…tied for most allstar appearances lol? Longevity based…best player on his team for 19 years? Thats longevity based….all nba and allstar selections? Thats longevity based….3 different franchises??? Who cares? That means he jumped around and he joined other allstar players in the process. Jordan created a dynasty in Chicago winning 6 titles and 2 3 peats. James joined Wade and Bosh in Miami. 3 allstar players on the same team lol? He joined Love and Kyrie in Cleveland. 3 allstar players on the same team. He failed in LA so he had to beg Davis to come join him in LA. When did Jordan play with 2 other allstar players? Only Pippen made the allstar team with Jordan.

Grant made the allatar team once with Orlando. Rodman twice with Detroit. Kukoc made the nba allstar team the same amount of times as me. All those postseason stats are cause longevity man. Jordan has a higher postseason winning pct which means what? He won more often when playing. Anything James has over Jordan is longevity based.

[ty 4191]

1989-1998 there were:

-16 of 29 teams (55%) during Jordan's prime below .500
-There were 10 of 29 teams (34%) under .400
-2 under .300 (!) winning percentage

The last 10 years, that % is:
-12 of 30 teams under .500
-3 out of 30 teams (10%) under .400
-0 out of 30 teams under .300 (the worst team, Magic, are at .361)

That's a garbage league he played in.

The game is much more evolved than it was in 1998. That's what you don't seem to understand. At all.

And, you've proposed literally nothing to disabuse people of their belief that LeBron has been greater, and, for longer.

So the nba was good until 89 and it sucked to the year 1999 when it took an unprecidented leap?

Im pretty sure 13-14 teams miss the playoffs every year up until play in started.

So there were still 4 rounds in the playoffs to win the title.

The NBA was relatively strong until 88-89 and then took awhile to recover. It took another hit in 1995-1996 when more awful expansion teams were added.

Read this:

https://howtheyplay.com/team-sports/Why-Michael-Jordan-is-Overrated

Specifically "Jordan Played In A Weak League".

[ShaqAttac]

Since when are championships, finals mvps, league mvps, all defensive awards, defensive player of the year awards, scoring titles, and steals titles box scores? Show me something that favors James over Jordan…im sure there are a couple things. But i can find stats that favor Kareem over Jordan and James. I can find stats that favor Wilt or Russell over them too. Show me a boatload of stats/accolades that prove James is the goat. Anything that does is based on longevity. Funny cause ESPN, CBS dont have James as the goat. I ran off lol? There is nothing on the lebron james board that proves is the goat man. The last poll on the board here didnt have ole chosen as the goat.

i mean

Lebron has been the best player on his team for nineteen or twenty seasons, which is absolutely unparalleled. Even if you only look at the standard of “best player on a playoff team”, I am not sure whether anyone can top the resultant fifteen or sixteen. Top eight team, not sure anyone can top the resultant fourteen or fifteen. He has been my personal pick for league’s best player ten times, on par with Russell (~eleven but with uncertainty in 1958, 1962, 1964, 1966, and 1968) and Kareem (nine to thirteen depending on how we feel about 1970, 1977, 1981, and 1982). He narrowly trails Russell in career RealGM Player of the Year shares, which seems appropriate.

Lebron is the all-time leader in MVP shares. He is tied for most all-star appearances (almost certain to be sole holder next season), with the clear most as starter. He has the clears most all-NBA selections and all-NBA first team selections (and he would have the most even if forwards only had one spot), as well as the most combined first and second team selections. He has led all-NBA voting the most times (nine). He has led all-star voting the most times (ten), which I mention not as a “win” over Kareem or Russell but more because it is an interesting advantage over other similarly or more popular players. For as much as those can be attributed to “longevity”, he is also securely the most valuable APM player of the databall era by basically any measure, with few indications that the other perimetre player in this competition could push him.

He has been the best player on title teams for three separate franchises, with three separate coaches and three distinct rosters. In the postseason, he leads everyone in:

- wins
- road wins
- series wins
- road series wins
- series wins as an SRS underdog
- games played
- minutes played
- points

He is also top twelve in appearances outright (Stockton/Malone at 19, Duncan/Kareem at 18, and Shaq/Kidd/Parker at 17). He has the second highest playoff road win percentage among anyone in the consensus top twelve (Magic). He has the third highest playoff win percentage among anyone in the consensus top twelve (Magic and Jordan). He has the most consecutive series with a road playoff win. He has the second best road series win percentage, with five times the sample as Russell’s 3-1 record.

He has led six top 50 relative playoff teams (four titles plus 2009 and 2017), which is the same number as Jordan — and he had a better on-court and on/off rating than Jordan did across those respective six teams, despite false claims about his inability to lead teams to similar ceilings. He is tied for the third most conference finals (behind Kareem and Russell), and he is tied with Kareem for second most finals (with three of Kareem’s coming as a tertiary figure).

I see him as the player with the top career, top prime, top title peak, top runner-up peak, top conference finalist peak… This is just Lebron for me, and outside of ring-counting I do not see a real case for any other non-big. Others will make more of a data-focused case, and for posterity I encourage them to do so, but to an extent that preaches to the choir (so to speak) because anyone disagreeing is not interested in the cold data to a significant extent. And because Kareem and Russell are the two I see as his true rivals in career status, I am more interested in taking approaches that to some extent give them equivalent points of comparison.

theres also all the stuff kd listed when he capped ya.

mj is literally just bootleg russell

and by da "Impaact" bro gets smoked by bron, cap, n russ

Are you kidding me lol? All of that is longevity based man lol! All time leader in mvp shares? Longevity…tied for most allstar appearances lol? Longevity based…best player on his team for 19 years? Thats longevity based….all nba and allstar selections? Thats longevity based….3 different franchises??? Who cares? That means he jumped around and he joined other allstar players in the process. Jordan created a dynasty in Chicago winning 6 titles and 2 3 peats. James joined Wade and Bosh in Miami. 3 allstar players on the same team lol? He joined Love and Kyrie in Cleveland. 3 allstar players on the same team. He failed in LA so he had to beg Davis to come join him in LA. When did Jordan play with 2 other allstar players? Only Pippen made the allstar team with Jordan.

Grant made the allatar team once with Orlando. Rodman twice with Detroit. Kukoc made the nba allstar team the same amount of times as me. All those postseason stats are cause longevity man. Jordan has a higher postseason winning pct which means what? He won more often when playing. Anything James has over Jordan is longevity based.

pippen n grant were a 55 win team without mj. just pippen was still 50+. who cares about "all-stars"

bron beat a 73-win team with less help. russell cooked wilt n west with less help. mj's never won **** without a team that didn't need him to cook

[Bornstellar]

I'm sure it's been stated before but his combination of personal and team accolades along with being tied for the most rings in the modern era (Kareen) is probably the greatest argument. There is basically no award he has not won and no achievement he has not accomplished. Michael Jordan have it all

Arguing about who beat who is kind of silly since you can only play who is in front of you. Trying to punish Jordan for not playing a team as a good as the 73 win Warriors is dumb. Especially considering he was the best player on the widely-accepted GOAT team prior to the KD Warriors

[ty 4191]

The game is much more evolved than it was in 1998. Jordan played in a garbage league. - this is your argument?

It's not MY argument, it's the argument of anyone that's rational about the 1990's vs. today's league. Look at what globalization has done to the depth and quality of the league!! Besides, what I posted above about the league having drastically more parity the last 10 years vs 1989-1998, there's also this fact: Jordan was NOT going up against the best players (from around the globe) in the 80's and 90's. Not even remotely close:








Note: 120 international players played in the NBA last season. 120 players from 40 different countries. It really IS the best players from every corner of the globe now, compared to Jordan's time, when it was almost exclusively Americans, and, when the drawing pool of players was vastly smaller, by comparison.

Some facts for you:

-The last 5 MVP's have been internationally born.

-6 of the top 10 players the last 5 years (Jokic, Embiid, Gobert, Sabonis, Giannis, Doncic) are not American. Including the top 3 players, themselves.

-5 of the last 7 DPOY winners have been internationally born.

-Half of the All Stars of the past 5 years have been internationally born.

Basically, none of these superstars would have even been playing/did play when Jordan was in his prime.

There is nothing proving that James has ever been “greater” than Jordan. Absolutely nothing. Any stats/achievements that exist favor Jordan. The only thing he has over Jordan is longevity based stats.

All the best impact metrics we have clearly show LeBron was more impactful both in his prime, and, obviously, over the course of his career. That has been covered exhaustively, already, in this thread by others.

Your argument that Jordan played in a weak era is laughable. He played and won against the competition he faced.

That's exactly right. "Jordan played and won against the competition he faced.".

That is, an expansion league with almost zero international/globalized talent on display.

[ty 4191]

And that isn't talking any crap about LeBron, most people think he is #2 of all time which is insane and impressive in its own right.

Actually, most experts, like people here, think LeBron is better than Jordan, now.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1HWQLTqFcJdJJNvMFDAwikJXujuh75uajUPrE0eF2XXc/edit#gid=0

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2304930

[Gregoire]

I mean... Even the statement that LeBron is better passer isnt undebatable...
In this video MJ did as many great passes as LeBron in this entire playoffs...

Watch on YouTube

[DB23]

i mean

theres also all the stuff kd listed when he capped ya.

mj is literally just bootleg russell

and by da "Impaact" bro gets smoked by bron, cap, n russ

Are you kidding me lol? All of that is longevity based man lol! All time leader in mvp shares? Longevity…tied for most allstar appearances lol? Longevity based…best player on his team for 19 years? Thats longevity based….all nba and allstar selections? Thats longevity based….3 different franchises??? Who cares? That means he jumped around and he joined other allstar players in the process. Jordan created a dynasty in Chicago winning 6 titles and 2 3 peats. James joined Wade and Bosh in Miami. 3 allstar players on the same team lol? He joined Love and Kyrie in Cleveland. 3 allstar players on the same team. He failed in LA so he had to beg Davis to come join him in LA. When did Jordan play with 2 other allstar players? Only Pippen made the allstar team with Jordan.

Grant made the allatar team once with Orlando. Rodman twice with Detroit. Kukoc made the nba allstar team the same amount of times as me. All those postseason stats are cause longevity man. Jordan has a higher postseason winning pct which means what? He won more often when playing. Anything James has over Jordan is longevity based.

pippen n grant were a 55 win team without mj. just pippen was still 50+. who cares about "all-stars"

bron beat a 73-win team with less help. russell cooked wilt n west with less help. mj's never won **** without a team that didn't need him to cook

Honestly speaking, your argument wasn’t very convincing. I was hoping for more.

Really all you said is longevity and then some reaching arguments and false equivalence.

I don’t really want to go through the whole Pc board thread. Can someone present the best lebron argument here so we can review? What’s been posted so far is pretty weak.

[70sFan]

I think people should focus more on Jordan vs Russell comparison, because that's his natural competitor for the claim of the most accomplished player and the only argument I have heard against Russell is era (which people ignore in Jordan vs LeBron case) or scoring numbers (which by itself isn't an argument).

[WarriorGM]

The game is much more evolved than it was in 1998. Jordan played in a garbage league. - this is your argument?

It's not MY argument, it's the argument of anyone that's rational about the 1990's vs. today's league. Look at what globalization has done to the depth and quality of the league!! Besides, what I posted above about the league having drastically more parity the last 10 years vs 1989-1998, there's also this fact: Jordan was NOT going up against the best players (from around the globe) in the 80's and 90's. Not even remotely close:








Note: 120 international players played in the NBA last season. 120 players from 40 different countries. It really IS the best players from every corner of the globe now, compared to Jordan's time, when it was almost exclusively Americans, and, when the drawing pool of players was vastly smaller, by comparison.

Some facts for you:

-The last 5 MVP's have been internationally born.

-6 of the top 10 players the last 5 years (Jokic, Embiid, Gobert, Sabonis, Giannis, Doncic) are not American. Including the top 3 players, themselves.

-5 of the last 7 DPOY winners have been internationally born.

-Half of the All Stars of the past 5 years have been internationally born.

Basically, none of these superstars would have even been playing/did play when Jordan was in his prime.

There is nothing proving that James has ever been “greater” than Jordan. Absolutely nothing. Any stats/achievements that exist favor Jordan. The only thing he has over Jordan is longevity based stats.

All the best impact metrics we have clearly show LeBron was more impactful both in his prime, and, obviously, over the course of his career. That has been covered exhaustively, already, in this thread by others.

Your argument that Jordan played in a weak era is laughable. He played and won against the competition he faced.

That's exactly right. "Jordan played and won against the competition he faced.".

That is, an expansion league with almost zero international/globalized talent on display.

Who is the greatest international player?

[ShaqAttac]

Are you kidding me lol? All of that is longevity based man lol! All time leader in mvp shares? Longevity…tied for most allstar appearances lol? Longevity based…best player on his team for 19 years? Thats longevity based….all nba and allstar selections? Thats longevity based….3 different franchises??? Who cares? That means he jumped around and he joined other allstar players in the process. Jordan created a dynasty in Chicago winning 6 titles and 2 3 peats. James joined Wade and Bosh in Miami. 3 allstar players on the same team lol? He joined Love and Kyrie in Cleveland. 3 allstar players on the same team. He failed in LA so he had to beg Davis to come join him in LA. When did Jordan play with 2 other allstar players? Only Pippen made the allstar team with Jordan.

Grant made the allatar team once with Orlando. Rodman twice with Detroit. Kukoc made the nba allstar team the same amount of times as me. All those postseason stats are cause longevity man. Jordan has a higher postseason winning pct which means what? He won more often when playing. Anything James has over Jordan is longevity based.

pippen n grant were a 55 win team without mj. just pippen was still 50+. who cares about "all-stars"

bron beat a 73-win team with less help. russell cooked wilt n west with less help. mj's never won **** without a team that didn't need him to cook

Honestly speaking, your argument wasn’t very convincing. I was hoping for more.

Really all you said is longevity and then some reaching arguments and false equivalence.

I don’t really want to go through the whole Pc board thread. Can someone present the best lebron argument here so we can review? What’s been posted so far is pretty weak.

nah reachin is tryna use all-stars to say a team that was very good without mj wasnt actually very good. imagine thinkin all-stars matters more than winning. cavs were bad without lebron and then beat a 73 win team with him. lebron was winning 60 n 66 b2b with less help than mj needed just to win 50. bron a way better defender n better attacker so idk what the confusion is.

there was a good take down in the top 10 overrated thread. idk where that is

[ShaqAttac]

I think people should focus more on Jordan vs Russell comparison, because that's his natural competitor for the claim of the most accomplished player and the only argument I have heard against Russell is era (which people ignore in Jordan vs LeBron case) or scoring numbers (which by itself isn't an argument).

if they did that, mj wouldnt have an arg. idk how anyone can say pc is anti-mj when they vote him over better mj