2023-24 Season Discussion and Speculation - Free Agency Begins

[enigmatics]

The Ayton "haters" truly believe Vogel talks him up strictly because they think he's going to get traded much like the Ayton balloon knot lickers believe Vogel talks him up because he's the Landry to his Monty. I mean what are we talking about here?

Regardless of whether a trade is going to happen or not - Vogel is going to talk him up. That's an undeniable fact, especially when it comes to a guy who's stock has dropped as significantly as it has and the Suns need to hedge their bets. Vogel is also NOT the GM. He has to play the cards he's dealt.

LOL! What does that mean?

Urban Dictionary dot com my friend!

[sunsbg]

I'm not denying what you say, but I think you have a problem with my take that Vogel actually feels pretty good about having the opportunity to coach DA.

I have zero problems when it comes to your opinion - trust me. It's quite feasible Vogel was indeed impressed by what he saw in DA back in the '20/'21 playoffs and thinks he has potential. The "P" word has never been the issue though and anyone with a functioning brain can see it. How DA's brain functions is an entirely different story and one at the center of his issues.

I just think it's funny when people try to glean anything regarding trade or no trade from generic sound clips like the one you posted. I've already posted proof of Vogel in his career LITERALLY talking up players than he inevitably traded. Put it this way - if the Suns were not going to consider any trades of DA they would have already made it clear he's untouchable.

I'm not sure you use the word potential properly. That's for someone who has not already shown what he's capable of. Then nobody is saying DA is untradable. Vogel is also not a GM as you said, so don't think he traded anyone. All in all a waste of time continuing this discussion.

[Cutter]

The Ayton "haters" truly believe Vogel talks him up strictly because they think he's going to get traded much like the Ayton balloon knot lickers believe Vogel talks him up because he's the Landry to his Monty. I mean what are we talking about here?

Regardless of whether a trade is going to happen or not - Vogel is going to talk him up. That's an undeniable fact, especially when it comes to a guy who's stock has dropped as significantly as it has and the Suns need to hedge their bets. Vogel is also NOT the GM. He has to play the cards he's dealt.

LOL! What does that mean?

Urban Dictionary dot com my friend!

Just looked it up on Google, now I wish I didn't!

[bwoolf2]

The Ayton "haters" truly believe Vogel talks him up strictly because they think he's going to get traded much like the Ayton balloon knot lickers believe Vogel talks him up because he's the Landry to his Monty. I mean what are we talking about here?

Regardless of whether a trade is going to happen or not - Vogel is going to talk him up. That's an undeniable fact, especially when it comes to a guy who's stock has dropped as significantly as it has and the Suns need to hedge their bets. Vogel is also NOT the GM. He has to play the cards he's dealt.

LOL! What does that mean?

Urban Dictionary dot com my friend!

Let's just call this an Ayton forum and not a Suns forum because it's certainly not about the team anymore, the ayton debate has been beaten to death in all known universes.

[WeekapaugGroove]

I don't know anything more than you regarding what's going to happen, but I truly believe Vogel is happy to have DA on the team being he knows what he's capable of after coaching against him in that Lakers series. The Ayton haters probably truly believe Vogel talks him up for a trade. That's the difference. In the end they can trade him for a good package or for financial reasons. And people are putting their hopes on 15th like a trade could not be announced in advance.

The Ayton "haters" truly believe Vogel talks him up strictly because they think he's going to get traded much like the Ayton balloon knot lickers believe Vogel talks him up because he's the Landry to his Monty. I mean what are we talking about here?

Regardless of whether a trade is going to happen or not - Vogel is going to talk him up. That's an undeniable fact, especially when it comes to a guy who's stock has dropped as significantly as it has and the Suns need to hedge their bets. Vogel is also NOT the GM. He has to play the cards he's dealt.

LOL! What does that mean?

I think he's saying don't read anything into a coach says publicly. Which is a pretty good rule to live by.

I personally don't think Ayton is going anywhere, not because of Vogels praise but more because the roster looks set up for him to be here at least to start the season.


Edit: just realized you meant the bolded part. Yeah that my first time seeing that term too

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[ImNotMcDiSwear]

LOL! What does that mean?

Urban Dictionary dot com my friend!

Let's just call this an Ayton forum and not a Suns forum because it's certainly not about the team anymore, the ayton debate has been beaten to death in all known universes.

We're not talking about a game. We're not talking about the game I love and pay money to see and analyze to death. We're talking about the offseason. The offseason? Not a game. Not a game. The offseason.

Personally, I think if Ayton were on the move, we'd hear rumblings from reputable sources, not BS about Harden or whatever. So I highly doubt we're trading him.

[enigmatics]

I think he's saying don't read anything into a coach says publicly. Which is a pretty good rule to live by.

I personally don't think Ayton is going anywhere, not because of Vogels praise but more because the roster looks set up for him to be here at least to start the season.


Edit: just realized you meant the bolded part. Yeah that my first time seeing that term too

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100%.

If someone were to say the way the roster is constructed lends more to him being kept - that would carry more credence.

[SunsRback4Good]

Thought this was interesting given some of the talk of roster consistency in here yesterday:

Read on Twitter

Basically the 90% of the league turns over in 4 years increments.

It's why I get a kick out of people worrying about the suns projected roster in like 2028.

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I miss the 90’s up until 07 I guess where players took pride in playing for one franchise. There of course were some outliners like Barkley leaving Philly to PHX then to Houston or Pip leaving to Houston cause of management getting rid of bulls dynasty or Shaq leaving the Magic. But overall majority of stars stuck with their team which made it more memorable to cheer and watch the league back then. Now it’s more like musical chairs.

[SunsRback4Good]

LOL! What does that mean?

Urban Dictionary dot com my friend!

Just looked it up on Google, now I wish I didn't!

Same here. I guess that I learned a new word today.

[enigmatics]

Let's just call this an Ayton forum and not a Suns forum because it's certainly not about the team anymore, the ayton debate has been beaten to death in all known universes.

What about the multiverse? I'm going Kang the Conquere on this mofo - like Jonathan Majors in a cab with his girlfriend level Kang j/k.

[SunsRback4Good]

Let's just call this an Ayton forum and not a Suns forum because it's certainly not about the team anymore, the ayton debate has been beaten to death in all known universes.

What about the multiverse? I'm going Kang the Conquere on this mofo - like Jonathan Majors in a cab with his girlfriend level Kang j/k.

Enigmatic outside of Ayton’s mansion late at night.

[WeekapaugGroove]

:banghead:

Thought this was interesting given some of the talk of roster consistency in here yesterday:

Read on Twitter

Basically the 90% of the league turns over in 4 years increments.

It's why I get a kick out of people worrying about the suns projected roster in like 2028.

Sent from my SM-G986U using RealGM mobile app

I miss the 90’s up until 07 I guess where players took pride in playing for one franchise. There of course were some outliners like Barkley leaving Philly to PHX then to Houston or Pip leaving to Houston cause of management getting rid of bulls dynasty or Shaq leaving the Magic. But overall majority of stars stuck with their team which made it more memorable to cheer and watch the league back then. Now it’s more like musical chairs.

I blame Kareem for the player empowerment era Homie should have stayed on the Bucks


One change from the 90/00s is the max length of a contract is much shorter these days. I agree that's it's nice to have guys to root for long term.

I'll also note the 90/00s were in my opinion the absolute worst era in NBA history. The muck it up games with scores in the 80s sucked. Plus with rapid expansion and the issues some potential stars of that era had with drugs really killed the overall talent pool.

The seven seconds or less suns really did a lot to save the sport.

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[Saberestar]

KD doesn't stop playing ball and working on his craft.

[bwgood77]

Fewer dunks too which might bother a lot of people.

. I know you say this as a little rib shot to the Ayton haters that think he should dunk more but it’s kind lame because in fact he should be finishing stronger. That’ll never happen though, we both know that.

True, and my point was the people bothered by that would likely feel the same way they do about Ayton in that area, to a greater extent, and probably would complain he takes too many 3s for a C and should take it with force to the rim...also should fight harder for rebounds, which he is also a lot worse at than Ayton.

[Fo-Real]

Pretty quiet.

[WeekapaugGroove]

Fewer dunks too which might bother a lot of people.

. I know you say this as a little rib shot to the Ayton haters that think he should dunk more but it’s kind lame because in fact he should be finishing stronger. That’ll never happen though, we both know that.

True, and my point was the people bothered by that would likely feel the same way they do about Ayton in that area, to a greater extent, and probably would complain he takes too many 3s for a C and should take it with force to the rim...also should fight harder for rebounds, which he is also a lot worse at than Ayton.

Turners rebounding is an interesting topic, he's never been a great rebounder but I wonder if the stats are a little skewed because he's spent almost all his Indi career playing with another big. Especially his time with Sabonis where they would have Miles guarding the perimeter more. Turner also ranks high in box outs each year so that's useful. (Not saying he's a better rebounder than DA)

Also expectations as a whole would/should be different with Turner vs Ayton. Ayton makes more money and fashions himself as some star type where as Turner is more a high end role player.

BW I think you take a very numbers/logical view of Ayton. But I think lots of fans frustrations with him are outside of that and more in the emotional realm of just being sick of the dude and no longer wanting him around.

But all probably moot because I don't think he's going anywhere.

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[darealjuice]

I'm not really sold on Vogel meaning we get a new Ayton. Igor spent the entire season talking about how Ayton needed to work harder, then we hire Monty and the narrative is "Monty coached young AD and players love him, he'll be able to help develop and motive Ayton." We saw how that went. Now the narrative shifts to Vogel being the big man whisperer because he unlocked... Hibbert? Vucevic had his worst 2 seasons under Vogel in Orlando, but I don't see that mentioned.

We'll see what happens. It's easy to say you're going to get him involved on offense, but hard to achieve when he's the fourth banana.

[bwgood77]

Ayton did improve considerably though in year 2 and year 3 and on offense in year 4. Turner's rebounding #s obviously were down playing with Sabonis but even without him, he only averaged 7.5 even though that was an uptick. I really like Turner though and think it would be a great return...I can just see people eventually complaining about him as well, with what I've said, being injured often, etc. I understand he doesn't make as much, but that's kind of moot given our team's salaries. We are well over the cap even just removing him entirely.

I think there is still a very good chance he gets traded though. The restriction for Indy is tomorrow so we will see if anything happens, and it wouldn't necessarily happen right away. Indy seemingly wanted to pair Turner and Ayton though, so I don't know if they'd want to make the swap given they didn't last summer. Unless we declined an Ayton for Turner trade last summer, but that doesn't make sense because Indy wouldn't have cleared the cap space to give him an offer sheet. If they offered a max S&T and we rejected Turner, they would have certainly known we would match and wouldn't have likely tied up cap space to give the offer. If they rejected a swap last summer, then given Turner played better and Ayton worse last year, it doesn't make sense they'd do it now.

[WeekapaugGroove]

Ayton did improve considerably though in year 2 and year 3 and on offense in year 4. Turner's rebounding #s obviously were down playing with Sabonis but even without him, he only averaged 7.5 even though that was an uptick. I really like Turner though and think it would be a great return...I can just see people eventually complaining about him as well, with what I've said, being injured often, etc. I understand he doesn't make as much, but that's kind of moot given our team's salaries. We are well over the cap even just removing him entirely.

I think there is still a very good chance he gets traded though. The restriction for Indy is tomorrow so we will see if anything happens, and it wouldn't necessarily happen right away. Indy seemingly wanted to pair Turner and Ayton though, so I don't know if they'd want to make the swap given they didn't last summer. Unless we declined an Ayton for Turner trade last summer, but that doesn't make sense because Indy wouldn't have cleared the cap space to give him an offer sheet. If they offered a max S&T and we rejected Turner, they would have certainly known we would match and wouldn't have likely tied up cap space to give the offer. If they rejected a swap last summer, then given Turner played better and Ayton worse last year, it doesn't make sense they'd do it now.

The money thing actually is a big factor moving forward because the suns really should get under the 2nd apron sometime before 25/26. The 3 times in 5 years penalties are rough.

Swapping Aytons salary for Turners gives them a path to get under the second apron next summer. I don't think DA gets dealt but if he does I think that will actually be the main reason.

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[bwgood77]

Ayton did improve considerably though in year 2 and year 3 and on offense in year 4. Turner's rebounding #s obviously were down playing with Sabonis but even without him, he only averaged 7.5 even though that was an uptick. I really like Turner though and think it would be a great return...I can just see people eventually complaining about him as well, with what I've said, being injured often, etc. I understand he doesn't make as much, but that's kind of moot given our team's salaries. We are well over the cap even just removing him entirely.

I think there is still a very good chance he gets traded though. The restriction for Indy is tomorrow so we will see if anything happens, and it wouldn't necessarily happen right away. Indy seemingly wanted to pair Turner and Ayton though, so I don't know if they'd want to make the swap given they didn't last summer. Unless we declined an Ayton for Turner trade last summer, but that doesn't make sense because Indy wouldn't have cleared the cap space to give him an offer sheet. If they offered a max S&T and we rejected Turner, they would have certainly known we would match and wouldn't have likely tied up cap space to give the offer. If they rejected a swap last summer, then given Turner played better and Ayton worse last year, it doesn't make sense they'd do it now.

The money thing actually is a big factor moving forward because the suns really should get under the 2nd apron sometime before 25/26. The 3 times in 5 years penalties are rough.

Swapping Aytons salary for Turners gives them a path to get under the second apron next summer. I don't think DA gets dealt but if he does I think that will actually be the main reason.

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How far above the apron are they? Too much to where the cap/tax level rising is faster than the increases in the top 4 players? Then Payne will expire too.

Of course depth with only minimum guys hurts. Not sure how much salary they could take back dealing Ayton to get under though.