Who got the most "impact" MJ, Dream, Dunc, Shaq, or Wilt, Oscaar, Magic(reaad op)

[ShaqAttac]

It seem by all the "impaact" or apmm or wowy stuff mikan, russ, cap n bron prob at the top. But what bout everyone else?

Who the best at gettin dubs? I put the ppl ive seen mentioneed but let me know if i should add anyone else

Plz list the rankings for the playerss for peeak n prime n career

Idk who to vote for after the 1st 4 so this would be p helpful

[OhayoKD]

It seem by all the "impaact" or apmm or wowy stuff mikan, russ, cap n bron prob at the top. But what bout everyone else?

Who the best at gettin dubs? I put the ppl ive seen mentioneed but let me know if i should add anyone else

Plz list the rankings for the playerss for peeak n prime n career

Idk who to vote for after the 1st 4 so this would be p helpful

I'd toss in Oscar and Magic who have arguments as the "impact kings" of their respective time periods just going by the numbers(oscar's isn't really that good). KG also has a great impact shout and is probably the most valuable rs prime/peak of anyone here(maybe wilt has thoughts)

As for overall, I probably favor Duncan but there are off0court considerations there. Here's an "arrg" if u want:
viewtopic.php?p=104590924#p104590924

He has the #1 3-year playoff aupm despite that having bpm as a factor, his raw stuff looks as good as anyone listed here, is #1 in darko and the most consistent winner of the modern era to go with victories with two completely different cores. Him taking a paycut also allowed for the 13, 14 and 16/17 spurs so all considered he might be my pick of this pack. By RAPM he's usually a debatable 2 with kg though KG holds an rs-only edge

Hakeem also has a pretty decent argument since he's competitive with mj and magic in the regular season and is the best playoff-riser of the bunch. He's also beaten a statistically better playoff opponent than many other candidates here(including jordan) in the 86 magic as a 2nd-year with limited help. You can also curve for him and KG for having terrible off-court situations.

MJ is the most successful(at least via rings, mvps, ect) of the bunch and playoff-elevation is an advantage relative to shaq probably(though if u use 2000-2003 wowy, shaq may be advantaged purely for the 2000 rs), and he's not clearly behind anyone here in temrs of individual influence so he's a fine pick. He also looks like he was the best in the league for the partial samples we have in 88 and 91(which is not exactly suprising)


Could get into it more later, but hopefully that's a decent appetizer!

[kendogg]

1. Wilt
2. Nobody
3. LeBron

15. Duncan lol spaghetti face get carried by my boys David, Manu and Tony

[70sFan]

15. Duncan lol spaghetti face get carried by my boys David, Manu and Tony

What just happened?

[ShaqAttac]

It seem by all the "impaact" or apmm or wowy stuff mikan, russ, cap n bron prob at the top. But what bout everyone else?

Who the best at gettin dubs? I put the ppl ive seen mentioneed but let me know if i should add anyone else

Plz list the rankings for the playerss for peeak n prime n career

Idk who to vote for after the 1st 4 so this would be p helpful

I'd toss in Oscar and Magic who have arguments as the "impact kings" of their respective time periods just going by the numbers(oscar's isn't really that good). KG also has a great impact shout and is probably the most valuable rs prime/peak of anyone here(maybe wilt has thoughts)

As for overall, I probably favor Duncan but there are off0court considerations there. Here's an "arrg" if u want:
viewtopic.php?p=104590924#p104590924

He has the #1 3-year playoff aupm despite that having bpm as a factor, his raw stuff looks as good as anyone listed here, is #1 in darko and the most consistent winner of the modern era to go with victories with two completely different cores. Him taking a paycut also allowed for the 13, 14 and 16/17 spurs so all considered he might be my pick of this pack. By RAPM he's usually a debatable 2 with kg though KG holds an rs-only edge

Hakeem also has a pretty decent argument since he's competitive with mj and magic in the regular season and is the best playoff-riser of the bunch. He's also beaten a statistically better playoff opponent than many other candidates here(including jordan) in the 86 magic as a 2nd-year with limited help. You can also curve for him and KG for having terrible off-court situations.

MJ is the most successful(at least via rings, mvps, ect) of the bunch and playoff-elevation is an advantage relative to shaq probably(though if u use 2000-2003 wowy, shaq may be advantaged purely for the 2000 rs), and he's not clearly behind anyone here in temrs of individual influence so he's a fine pick. He also looks like he was the best in the league for the partial samples we have in 88 and 91(which is not exactly suprising)


Could get into it more later, but hopefully that's a decent appetizer!

can i see da statts for keem

[ShaqAttac]

15. Duncan lol spaghetti face get carried by my boys David, Manu and Tony

What just happened?

how a face look like spaghetti?

[ShaqAttac]

also i addded ppl

[OhayoKD]

Could get into it more later, but hopefully that's a decent appetizer!

can i see da statts for keem

Sure!
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=104511802#p104511802
(some methodological discussion here if you're interested)

Regular Season parity with MJ/Magic:

With that out of the way, let's start with a basic "pure" outline applying a filter of >10 gm/season samples, keeping in mind that the sample of data being referenced is vastly larger than the RAPM set provided:

84-85, rookie hakeem sees a 29 win team become a 48 win team without notable cast change. 86, rockets are 5-5 without, and then are 51 with, and then skyrocket in the postseason notably beating the 61 win lakers in 5 with hakeem's ppg jumping off a cliff. In 87 sampson misses a bunch of games, and there's a coke crisis but the rockets are still able to win more games than a certain chicago guard. 88, rockets play like a 20 win team without and a 45 win team with, and then in 92 the rockets go 2-10 without and win 42 with him and then move to a 55 wins in 93 before b2b titles with 94 and 95.

Hakeem is one of a handful of players(post-russell, we're talking Lebron, Kareem, Robinson) to post 25+-win lift multiple times. Worth noting that this is around where RAPM tends to distribute superstar impact to role players. His peak signals are arguably era-best.

Of course, a common knock on Hakeem is his consistency as an RS performer, but even over longer periods, he looks quite good. IIRC, if you use 10-year samples...

Hakeem takes 33-win teams to 48 wins
Jordan takes 38-win teams to 53.5 wins
Magic takes 44-win teams to 59 wins

Keeping in mind that it's harder to lift better teams, Hakeem comes marginally behind Jordan, and slightly more behind Magic, but he's right up there with both.

Ben has his own(presumably more sophisticated) approach which likes Hakeem even better; "Prime WOWY" ranks Olajuwon 10th. Magic and Jordan rank 12th and 20th, respectively. Keep in mind the samples here are much, much smaller, but at least there aren't extraneous distortions to worry about as we may with something like WOWYR

Getting back to larger samples(or in this case, the largest possible sample), Drafting Hakeem produces a +5 SRS improvement for the Rockets without significant roster additions(this is top-ten worthys, and better than what Magic or Jordan managed), and they've reached the final(interrupting a dynasty on the way) by year two. That start looks GOAT-worthy. Then, when various catastrophes take place starting in 1987, Hakeem still does an admiral job keeping a shipwreck afloat before capitalizing spectacularly with limited help.

Pollock did some on/off for 94-96 which looks pretty good with 1994 looking like a top 60 signal from the last 30 years. Considering the 92 Rockets were outscored by 10 points in games without Hakeem, it's not hard to see inclusion of 92/93 giving Hakeem a top top 3-year peak.

Looking at BBR, we get a full 2 seasons of "impact" data for Hakeem with his on/off in 97/98(well, well past his peak), but even there, entering his mid 30's, Dream looks pretty impactful on very good teams(that's rarified air for a 13th/14th season player, even among top-tenners).

Considering the immense external adversity at play(coke crisis, incompetent and hostile FO, co-star injured, ect.), the wear-and tear that comes with a decade-plus of continuous high-level play(no retirements here! forced or otherwise), and the absence of a complimentary superstar to tie his minutes to(Magic had Kareem, Jordan had Pippen), I'd say Hakeem has a solid case as the most valuable regular season player of his era.

Playoff riser:

As he was also arguably the nba's greatest playoff-riser(94-95 Rox played 62-win basketball vs playoff opponents, and 86 victory against the Magic is probably the best "david beats goliath" moment of the period), and a longevity giant, I feel pretty confident considering him among the best of the best, even if his resume looks a little lean.

I think in the playoffs Hakeem elevates the most(2nd best record as an srs underdog, beats a +10 san psrs opponent in 86(magic has only beaten 1, jordan has beaten 0), great box-improvement, great team-wide improvement from 92-95), MJ shines second brightest(88-91 sees the bulls improve in the postseason though in 90 specifically that improvement being more tied to mj than his teammates is questionable I think, significant box-improvement in 88/89 without context like the triangle to explain it), and Magic shines 3rd brightest(offesnes get better, but also, probably two of the worst chokes ever with the two houston losses, I think exploitable defensively), but that should have no influence on who is voted MVP.

Mostly covered the playoff-stuff in the first post but he's also 1 of 3 MVP-winners to come back from 3-1 down(Lebron and Russell being the others), and like already covered, 2nd best winning% among MVP's as a playoff-underdog, 2nd most wins, needed much less help than Magic to beat a +10psrs opponent(Jordan has never). You can check the box-numbers yourself on BBR if you want.

[ShaqAttac]

bump.

am thinkin bout duncan hakeem n mj for the 2nd vote but idk who to vote for. leaning hakeem but maybe i should vote duncan? i dont think mikan gonna get votes.

[uberhikari]

15. Duncan lol spaghetti face get carried by my boys David, Manu and Tony

What just happened?

[ShaqAttac]

15. Duncan lol spaghetti face get carried by my boys David, Manu and Tony

What just happened?

kendawg got the best wowwy on this thread if im bein honest

[ShaqAttac]

hey! idk who to vote for after hakeem n duncan.

how about magic, kg, n shaq?

how does their impaact comp

[OhayoKD]

hey! idk who to vote for after hakeem n duncan.

how about magic, kg, n shaq?

how does their impaact comp

In terms of impact I'd say it goes KG/Magic>Shaq and then KG has a big big longevity advantage for what it's worth. You voted Duncan 4th but KG is a direct peer and he has a pretty great playoff peak with 2004(and that's more or less the only oppurtunity he had to realistically make a run). Also gives the 1999 Spurs one of their two losses arguably outplaying Duncan in 1999 and 2001 and arguably outplaying shaq in 2003(definitely outplays him in 2004).

If you can look past the lack of team-success(which you seem to have done to an extent for Hakeem), KG's a pretty reasonable pick.

Not sure if you've seen it, but KG does very well relative to Shaq in RAPM(over basically any-time frame) and I don't know his post-scoring/low ft accumulation is any more exploitable than Shaq's defense or lack of handling/playmaking chops:
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=107063640#p107063640

[falcolombardi]

Probably duncan and hakeem for me, then jordan/magic