What's the strongest data-driven argument for Michael Jordan as GOAT?

[ShaqAttac]

Even

->jumpin hoops
->25 mpg 6th man WAS NOT a role player


u can keep saying STATISTICALLY but STATISCIALLY is literally just stats YOU like that aint got **** to do with winnin and sucks at capturin D. the thing the celtics were actually good at.


MJ has literally never won without a superteam. By WOWWY which you used to say steph help was average, Lebron literally beat the dubs with terrible help. why would that not be better than anything mj or steph ever did?

by wowwy the Warriors were better in the playoffs without steph than the rs. by all that RAPM stuff you been usin Draymond is one of the best players in the league n gets even better in the playoffs. in almost everyone's opinion, DRAYMOND WOULD AND SHOULD HAVE WON FINALS MVP IF THE WARRIORS WON. i think u need to stop using words like "obvious" coz "obvious" clearly is just u looking at pee-pee-gee and assumin everyone else does the same.

dubs were still better than any team mj beat in the playoffs. that dont mean steph played like a top 10-all-timer. I never said 2016 was THE GREATEST ACHEIVEMENT EVER, but it def better than anything MJ or steph done. the greatest achievement ever is Russell killin a superteam in 69 with mid. and that was ring ELEVEN. Thats why I voted him #1. Easy peasy

[WarriorGM]

->jumpin hoops
->25 mpg 6th man WAS NOT a role player


u can keep saying STATISTICALLY but STATISCIALLY is literally just stats YOU like that aint got **** to do with winnin and sucks at capturin D. the thing the celtics were actually good at.


MJ has literally never won without a superteam. By WOWWY which you used to say steph help was average, Lebron literally beat the dubs with terrible help. why would that not be better than anything mj or steph ever did?

by wowwy the Warriors were better in the playoffs without steph than the rs. by all that RAPM stuff you been usin Draymond is one of the best players in the league n gets even better in the playoffs. in almost everyone's opinion, DRAYMOND WOULD AND SHOULD HAVE WON FINALS MVP IF THE WARRIORS WON. i think u need to stop using words like "obvious" coz "obvious" clearly is just u looking at pee-pee-gee and assumin everyone else does the same.

dubs were still better than any team mj beat in the playoffs. that dont mean steph played like a top 10-all-timer. I never said 2016 was THE GREATEST ACHEIVEMENT EVER, but it def better than anything MJ or steph done. the greatest achievement ever is Russell killin a superteam in 69 with mid. and that was ring ELEVEN. Thats why I voted him #1. Easy peasy

Sounds like a LeBron fan pretending to be a Russell fan so he can criticize Jordan and Curry without looking as sad.

[ShaqAttac]

->jumpin hoops
->25 mpg 6th man WAS NOT a role player


u can keep saying STATISTICALLY but STATISCIALLY is literally just stats YOU like that aint got **** to do with winnin and sucks at capturin D. the thing the celtics were actually good at.


MJ has literally never won without a superteam. By WOWWY which you used to say steph help was average, Lebron literally beat the dubs with terrible help. why would that not be better than anything mj or steph ever did?

by wowwy the Warriors were better in the playoffs without steph than the rs. by all that RAPM stuff you been usin Draymond is one of the best players in the league n gets even better in the playoffs. in almost everyone's opinion, DRAYMOND WOULD AND SHOULD HAVE WON FINALS MVP IF THE WARRIORS WON. i think u need to stop using words like "obvious" coz "obvious" clearly is just u looking at pee-pee-gee and assumin everyone else does the same.

dubs were still better than any team mj beat in the playoffs. that dont mean steph played like a top 10-all-timer. I never said 2016 was THE GREATEST ACHEIVEMENT EVER, but it def better than anything MJ or steph done. the greatest achievement ever is Russell killin a superteam in 69 with mid. and that was ring ELEVEN. Thats why I voted him #1. Easy peasy

Sounds like a LeBron fan pretending to be a Russell fan so he can criticize Jordan and Curry without looking as sad.

sounds to me like cope mr. "THEY LOST THEIR THIRD BEST PLAYER, 6TH MAN SAM JONES".

[WarriorGM]

->jumpin hoops
->25 mpg 6th man WAS NOT a role player


u can keep saying STATISTICALLY but STATISCIALLY is literally just stats YOU like that aint got **** to do with winnin and sucks at capturin D. the thing the celtics were actually good at.


MJ has literally never won without a superteam. By WOWWY which you used to say steph help was average, Lebron literally beat the dubs with terrible help. why would that not be better than anything mj or steph ever did?

by wowwy the Warriors were better in the playoffs without steph than the rs. by all that RAPM stuff you been usin Draymond is one of the best players in the league n gets even better in the playoffs. in almost everyone's opinion, DRAYMOND WOULD AND SHOULD HAVE WON FINALS MVP IF THE WARRIORS WON. i think u need to stop using words like "obvious" coz "obvious" clearly is just u looking at pee-pee-gee and assumin everyone else does the same.

dubs were still better than any team mj beat in the playoffs. that dont mean steph played like a top 10-all-timer. I never said 2016 was THE GREATEST ACHEIVEMENT EVER, but it def better than anything MJ or steph done. the greatest achievement ever is Russell killin a superteam in 69 with mid. and that was ring ELEVEN. Thats why I voted him #1. Easy peasy

Sounds like a LeBron fan pretending to be a Russell fan so he can criticize Jordan and Curry without looking as sad.

sounds to me like cope mr. "THEY LOST THEIR THIRD BEST PLAYER, 6TH MAN SAM JONES".

Sad for a LeBron fan feeling he needs to hide behind Bill Russell.

[MavsDirk41]

1989-1998 there were:

-16 of 29 teams (55%) during Jordan's prime below .500
-There were 10 of 29 teams (34%) under .400
-2 under .300 (!) winning percentage

The last 10 years, that % is:
-12 of 30 teams under .500
-3 out of 30 teams (10%) under .400
-0 out of 30 teams under .300 (the worst team, Magic, are at .361)

That's a garbage league he played in.

The game is much more evolved than it was in 1998. That's what you don't seem to understand. At all.

And, you've proposed literally nothing to disabuse people of their belief that LeBron has been greater, and, for longer.

So the nba was good until 89 and it sucked to the year 1999 when it took an unprecidented leap?

Im pretty sure 13-14 teams miss the playoffs every year up until play in started.

So there were still 4 rounds in the playoffs to win the title.

The NBA was relatively strong until 88-89 and then took awhile to recover. It took another hit in 1995-1996 when more awful expansion teams were added.

Read this:

https://howtheyplay.com/team-sports/Why-Michael-Jordan-is-Overrated

Specifically "Jordan Played In A Weak League".

Lol still trying i see….an article saying that Jordan isnt clutch? Lol hilarious. This is Jordan in close out games in the finals

34/7/5 on 45% fg pct

What a loser right lol??


Did you actually watch any of his finals? I dont think you did if you actually think he isnt clutch.

An article trashing the opponents Jordan faced in the finals? Magic was second in mvp the year the Bulls beat LA in the finals. Barkley won mvp in 93. Malone won mvp in 97. He never faced a team as weak as the Miami Heat in the bubble. Hell i think every team he faced was better than my Mavs in 2011.

Between 2010 - 2018 James played with two allstars in Miami with Wade/Bosh and Love/Irving in Cleveland. The only allstar player Jordan ever played with was Pippen. Jordan was never lucky enough to play with two allstars like James did. But James needed more help. In fact, Wade had to teach James how to win in the finals.

That article is garbage pal. Better luck next time.

[MavsDirk41]

The game is much more evolved than it was in 1998. Jordan played in a garbage league. - this is your argument?

It's not MY argument, it's the argument of anyone that's rational about the 1990's vs. today's league. Look at what globalization has done to the depth and quality of the league!! Besides, what I posted above about the league having drastically more parity the last 10 years vs 1989-1998, there's also this fact: Jordan was NOT going up against the best players (from around the globe) in the 80's and 90's. Not even remotely close:








Note: 120 international players played in the NBA last season. 120 players from 40 different countries. It really IS the best players from every corner of the globe now, compared to Jordan's time, when it was almost exclusively Americans, and, when the drawing pool of players was vastly smaller, by comparison.

Some facts for you:

-The last 5 MVP's have been internationally born.

-6 of the top 10 players the last 5 years (Jokic, Embiid, Gobert, Sabonis, Giannis, Doncic) are not American. Including the top 3 players, themselves.

-5 of the last 7 DPOY winners have been internationally born.

-Half of the All Stars of the past 5 years have been internationally born.

Basically, none of these superstars would have even been playing/did play when Jordan was in his prime.

There is nothing proving that James has ever been “greater” than Jordan. Absolutely nothing. Any stats/achievements that exist favor Jordan. The only thing he has over Jordan is longevity based stats.

All the best impact metrics we have clearly show LeBron was more impactful both in his prime, and, obviously, over the course of his career. That has been covered exhaustively, already, in this thread by others.

Your argument that Jordan played in a weak era is laughable. He played and won against the competition he faced.

That's exactly right. "Jordan played and won against the competition he faced.".

That is, an expansion league with almost zero international/globalized talent on display.

What impact metrics are you talking about?

PER? No
RAPTOR? No
BPM? No


Accolades?? Well thats a joke….

[MavsDirk41]

2nd leading scorer on a team that was good on d, not o. u know players get worse over time? i think u should extend urself a courtesy and stop saying things to say things. the 2nd best player was better in 70. didnt make playoffs. bulls were still good when it was just pip and no grant.

stop with the excuses already. 11>6 n jordan had more help. 11>5 n curry had more help. pee pee gee didnt mean nothin

It really is something to behold such a claim. On the contrary among the top 10 it is probably easier to argue that Jordan and Curry are among the players who had the least help especially at the start of their careers. They had to turn around losing franchises. LeBron too but he took longer to win with the team that drafted him than either Jordan or Curry. Russell in his first year had that year's MVP as a teammate and another guy who was All-NBA and both those teammates are on the 75th Anniversary Team.

its easy if you pretend that pee-pee-gee n wiki pages matter more than winnin. we saw the celtics without russ n a 6th man. we saw the bulls without the best n 3rd best player. the bulls were better. yet mj wisn 5 less rings. pure excuses.

Hey Shaq am i mistaken or did James go join Wade and Bosh in Miami? So he created a superteam??? And Wade already won a finals and finals mvp dominating that series?? Is that accurate?

Hey Shaq? Did Wade outplay James in the 2011 finals? Want me to pull up the stats for you?

[MavsDirk41]

->jumpin hoops
->25 mpg 6th man WAS NOT a role player


u can keep saying STATISTICALLY but STATISCIALLY is literally just stats YOU like that aint got **** to do with winnin and sucks at capturin D. the thing the celtics were actually good at.


MJ has literally never won without a superteam. By WOWWY which you used to say steph help was average, Lebron literally beat the dubs with terrible help. why would that not be better than anything mj or steph ever did?

by wowwy the Warriors were better in the playoffs without steph than the rs. by all that RAPM stuff you been usin Draymond is one of the best players in the league n gets even better in the playoffs. in almost everyone's opinion, DRAYMOND WOULD AND SHOULD HAVE WON FINALS MVP IF THE WARRIORS WON. i think u need to stop using words like "obvious" coz "obvious" clearly is just u looking at pee-pee-gee and assumin everyone else does the same.

dubs were still better than any team mj beat in the playoffs. that dont mean steph played like a top 10-all-timer. I never said 2016 was THE GREATEST ACHEIVEMENT EVER, but it def better than anything MJ or steph done. the greatest achievement ever is Russell killin a superteam in 69 with mid. and that was ring ELEVEN. Thats why I voted him #1. Easy peasy

What is your definition of a superteam?

[Taj FTW]

1989-1998 there were:

-16 of 29 teams (55%) during Jordan's prime below .500
-There were 10 of 29 teams (34%) under .400
-2 under .300 (!) winning percentage

The last 10 years, that % is:
-12 of 30 teams under .500
-3 out of 30 teams (10%) under .400
-0 out of 30 teams under .300 (the worst team, Magic, are at .361)

That's a garbage league he played in.

The game is much more evolved than it was in 1998. That's what you don't seem to understand. At all.

And, you've proposed literally nothing to disabuse people of their belief that LeBron has been greater, and, for longer.

So the nba was good until 89 and it sucked to the year 1999 when it took an unprecidented leap?

Im pretty sure 13-14 teams miss the playoffs every year up until play in started.

So there were still 4 rounds in the playoffs to win the title.

The NBA was relatively strong until 88-89 and then took awhile to recover. It took another hit in 1995-1996 when more awful expansion teams were added.

Read this:

https://howtheyplay.com/team-sports/Why-Michael-Jordan-is-Overrated

Specifically "Jordan Played In A Weak League".

Lol still trying i see….an article saying that Jordan isnt clutch? Lol hilarious. This is Jordan in close out games in the finals

34/7/5 on 45% fg pct

What a loser right lol??


Did you actually watch any of his finals? I dont think you did if you actually think he isnt clutch.

An article trashing the opponents Jordan faced in the finals? Magic was second in mvp the year the Bulls beat LA in the finals. Barkley won mvp in 93. Malone won mvp in 97. He never faced a team as weak as the Miami Heat in the bubble. Hell i think every team he faced was better than my Mavs in 2011.

Between 2010 - 2018 James played with two allstars in Miami with Wade/Bosh and Love/Irving in Cleveland. The only allstar player Jordan ever played with was Pippen. Jordan was never lucky enough to play with two allstars like James did. But James needed more help. In fact, Wade had to teach James how to win in the finals.

That article is garbage pal. Better luck next time.

That's because your criteria for judging which teams are better is by simply looking at who has more all-stars and picking that team.

[ShaqAttac]

Sounds like a LeBron fan pretending to be a Russell fan so he can criticize Jordan and Curry without looking as sad.

sounds to me like cope mr. "THEY LOST THEIR THIRD BEST PLAYER, 6TH MAN SAM JONES".

Sad for a LeBron fan feeling he needs to hide behind Bill Russell.

bron fan who literally voted russell ahead of bron?
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=107353803#p107353803

yeah im def the one hidin here.

[WarriorGM]

sounds to me like cope mr. "THEY LOST THEIR THIRD BEST PLAYER, 6TH MAN SAM JONES".

Sad for a LeBron fan feeling he needs to hide behind Bill Russell.

bron fan who literally voted russell ahead of bron?
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=107353803#p107353803

yeah im def the one hidin here.

Merely confirming you're a LeBron fan:

I wanna vote MIKAN for 2 but imma keep my vote in case i need to use it for bron.

Russell wasn't going to be voted number one.

[JoseRizal]

MJ is the only player to have career averages of 30/5/5/2 (30.1 ppg, 6.2 rpg, 5.3 apg, 2.3 spg).

The next closest was Clyde with 20.4/6.1/5.6/2.0.

If you expand it to 10/5/5/2, you'll have only 3 more qualifiers.

Micheal Ray Richardson - 14.8/5.5/7.0/2.6
Alvin Robertson - 14.0/5.2/5.0/2.7
Fat Lever - 13.9/6.0/6.2/2.2

[70sFan]

He doesn’t even have to be all that close to his best for his absence to make a very significant difference. And losing your 2nd or 3rd biggest scorer is obviously a serious issue in general.

The problem is that Sam Jones was far removed from his prime. He played 6th man minutes and even though he took a lot of shots, he wasn't efficient scorer in that season (posting -1 rTS% and regressing in the playoffs). He wasn't Celtics 2nd best scorer - Havlicek and Howell were much better than him at that point and you can argue that Don Nelson was also more critical for them.

The biggest problem with attributing a bit portion of this regression to Jones is that the Celtics didn't get worse offensively in the next season - they actually were marginally better due to the improvement of Havlicek and Nelson. Their regression came all from their defense.

You’re jumping through hoops to try to argue that missing Sam Jones wasn’t important at all. Sam Jones in 1969 was not Cleveland Cavaliers Shaq. He was not even close to as far off from his peak numbers as Cavaliers Shaq was. Nor was Shaq the 2nd or 3rd leading scorer on the Cavaliers.

I agree that Jones wasn't on Cavs Shaq form, but there is a middle ground between these two opinions. Yes, Sam definitely had an impact on his team even that late, but no - he wasn't even close to the most important players on this team. Losing your 4th or 5th best player could hurt, but it's not something that would make you collapse.

I don’t understand why you’re talking about them being good because of their defense. Was Sam Jones a good defender? Do you even know?

I think at that point Jones was below average defender from games I have seen (he was a slight positive in his prime, but not an amazing defender even at his best).

And is scoring not still important for a good defensive team?

I think efficient scoring is important, but Celtics had better scoring options than Jones in 1970.

and yeah they lost their coach. aka BILL RUSSELL who won 2 chips coaching AND playing. are you tryna tell me that makes it less impressive? R u tellin me his successor wasnt good?

No, I’m saying that evaluating Bill Russell as a player should be separate from him as a coach. And either way, first-year coaches tend to not do all that well, and that’s what the Celtics had the year after Russell left. That’s a significant issue.

For what it's worth, they got another year of experience, a great rookie and overall roster improvement in 1971 and they still missed the playoffs (though mostly due to the playoff system of the 1970s, they were already decent). All of that with Havlicek peaking as a player.

Anyway, I think we shouldn't just look at 1969->1970 and say that Russell was worthy of X wins, but at the same time we can say with a high degree of certainty that Celtics needed Russell desperately and they weren't a good team without him.

[twyzted]

Kinda wild that the whole argument against Jordan boils down to:
-90s sucked:
somehow adding 6 teams over 7 year period made the league watered down…
But adding 14 teams over a 15 year period had no impact.

-inflatting Jordans teammates to some perfectly fitting players, all time great role players.
Pippen is the best nr2 of all time.
So the Magic and Kareem is worse?
Shaq and Kobe?
Bird and mchale/parish?
Etc.

-he had the only superteam of that era:
So adding Prime Charles Barkley to a 53win(5.68srs team, 57 wins by srs) isnt?
Lakers with Magic, worthy?
Shaq, penny and GOAT 3rd man Grant?
Etc.
According to RAPM datasets:
91 blazers had 2 in top10
92 cavs had 4 in top20

-losing to great teams:
Celtics, pistons and bucks those werent exactly trash teams.
But losing to Mavs, Magic, Celtics is acceptable as an excuse for not winning.

-any stats that is not tracking data is useless:
Wild how the only data acceptable is the data that we dont have for Jordan

-other candidate teammates downgrade:
Lebron teammates sucked.
Bill Russells teammates sucked.(sam jones 6th man=trash yet toni kuckoc… greatest!)

-wild logic
Winning 4 titles is now better then winning 6.
Having a better regular season win% is worse.
Having a better playoffs win% is worse.
Winning less is now winning more.

This isnt a exhustive list.

Mayby the argument for Jordan is that bashing and downplaying anything that he did is the only argument against him.

[70sFan]

Kinda wild that the whole argument against Jordan boils down to:
-90s sucked:
somehow adding 6 teams over 7 year period made the league watered down…
But adding 14 teams over a 15 year period had no impact.

-inflatting Jordans teammates to some perfectly fitting players, all time great role players.
Pippen is the best nr2 of all time.
So the Magic and Kareem is worse?
Shaq and Kobe?
Bird and mchale/parish?
Etc.

-he had the only superteam of that era:
So adding Prime Charles Barkley to a 53win(5.68srs team, 57 wins by srs) isnt?
Lakers with Magic, worthy?
Shaq, penny and GOAT 3rd man Grant?
Etc.
According to RAPM datasets:
91 blazers had 2 in top10
92 cavs had 4 in top20

-losing to great teams:
Celtics, pistons and bucks those werent exactly trash teams.
But losing to Mavs, Magic, Celtics is acceptable as an excuse for not winning.

-any stats that is not tracking data is useless:
Wild how the only data acceptable is the data that we dont have for Jordan

-other candidate teammates downgrade:
Lebron teammates sucked.
Bill Russells teammates sucked.(sam jones 6th man=trash yet toni kuckoc… greatest!)

-wild logic
Winning 4 titles is now better then winning 6.
Having a better regular season win% is worse.
Having a better playoffs win% is worse.
Winning less is now winning more.

This isnt a exhustive list.

Mayby the argument for Jordan is that bashing and downplaying anything that he did is the only argument against him.

And you are the one who accuse of people not wanting a real discussion?

[ShaqAttac]

->jumpin hoops
->25 mpg 6th man WAS NOT a role player


u can keep saying STATISTICALLY but STATISCIALLY is literally just stats YOU like that aint got **** to do with winnin and sucks at capturin D. the thing the celtics were actually good at.


MJ has literally never won without a superteam. By WOWWY which you used to say steph help was average, Lebron literally beat the dubs with terrible help. why would that not be better than anything mj or steph ever did?

by wowwy the Warriors were better in the playoffs without steph than the rs. by all that RAPM stuff you been usin Draymond is one of the best players in the league n gets even better in the playoffs. in almost everyone's opinion, DRAYMOND WOULD AND SHOULD HAVE WON FINALS MVP IF THE WARRIORS WON. i think u need to stop using words like "obvious" coz "obvious" clearly is just u looking at pee-pee-gee and assumin everyone else does the same.

dubs were still better than any team mj beat in the playoffs. that dont mean steph played like a top 10-all-timer. I never said 2016 was THE GREATEST ACHEIVEMENT EVER, but it def better than anything MJ or steph done. the greatest achievement ever is Russell killin a superteam in 69 with mid. and that was ring ELEVEN. Thats why I voted him #1. Easy peasy

What is your definition of a superteam?

hmm. Ig you could say when squads that are v good without another superstar. Lakerrs were really good when healthy and reached the finals with a top 5 guy. Then they added the best player from a maybe better team next year. that p simple. Warriors won a series n maybe could have made the cf without b4 steph got back. both v good before addin their best players n both ended up lose to superstar with way less help. lessthan tryna say warriors were not superteam because of they wowy in the rs but wowy would say bron won with like a 20-win team. idg why steph has to have played great in the playoffs for bron beatin to be hyped. russ also got a superteam when he was drafted but that superteam was not super for a bunch of rings soo

[ShaqAttac]

Sad for a LeBron fan feeling he needs to hide behind Bill Russell.

bron fan who literally voted russell ahead of bron?
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=107353803#p107353803

yeah im def the one hidin here.

Merely confirming you're a LeBron fan:

I wanna vote MIKAN for 2 but imma keep my vote in case i need to use it for bron.

Russell wasn't going to be voted number one.

no, youre confirmin that ya didnt read

1. In this thread you are to vote for your GOAT, and you also get a second vote to give you a say if your GOAT isn't one of the top 2 candidates.

We WERE TOLD to use our 2nd vote for whoever was in the top 2 candidates. I chose Russell and then mj n bron were the top 2 candidates so i chose between em. Good job hiding tho. Tried to call a 6th man a star and instead of concedin ur whining about "bron fans". Yall aint serious ppl

[ShaqAttac]

Kinda wild that the whole argument against Jordan boils down to:
-90s sucked:
somehow adding 6 teams over 7 year period made the league watered down…
But adding 14 teams over a 15 year period had no impact.

-inflatting Jordans teammates to some perfectly fitting players, all time great role players.
.

inflating? no. we literally saw them play without MJ. callin it as it is aint inflatin. even if it hurts your idol. we literally switched from srs to raw wins and ur boi's team still won more than the 70 celts without 2 of their 3 best players. how the **** is that not stacked?

[twyzted]

Kinda wild that the whole argument against Jordan boils down to:
-90s sucked:
somehow adding 6 teams over 7 year period made the league watered down…
But adding 14 teams over a 15 year period had no impact.

-inflatting Jordans teammates to some perfectly fitting players, all time great role players.
Pippen is the best nr2 of all time.
So the Magic and Kareem is worse?
Shaq and Kobe?
Bird and mchale/parish?
Etc.

-he had the only superteam of that era:
So adding Prime Charles Barkley to a 53win(5.68srs team, 57 wins by srs) isnt?
Lakers with Magic, worthy?
Shaq, penny and GOAT 3rd man Grant?
Etc.
According to RAPM datasets:
91 blazers had 2 in top10
92 cavs had 4 in top20

-losing to great teams:
Celtics, pistons and bucks those werent exactly trash teams.
But losing to Mavs, Magic, Celtics is acceptable as an excuse for not winning.

-any stats that is not tracking data is useless:
Wild how the only data acceptable is the data that we dont have for Jordan

-other candidate teammates downgrade:
Lebron teammates sucked.
Bill Russells teammates sucked.(sam jones 6th man=trash yet toni kuckoc… greatest!)

-wild logic
Winning 4 titles is now better then winning 6.
Having a better regular season win% is worse.
Having a better playoffs win% is worse.
Winning less is now winning more.

This isnt a exhustive list.

Mayby the argument for Jordan is that bashing and downplaying anything that he did is the only argument against him.

And you are the one who accuse of people not wanting a real discussion?

No i have quite literally posted all data for Jordan that is available publicly multible times in this thread.
That has been dismissed as not a good data.
Im not the one who doesnt want the discussion, i have not ducked any question asked about my posts.
It not because of lack of trying that the discussion hasnt happened its the lack of any intrest from most of pc board members.
Who have failed to provide any data outside of their own interpretation of data which despite being asked multible times for the source.

And n.b this thread was started by a pc board member, who hasnt even engaged in any discussion.
Then member have shown up to brag about the result of their project.

And everything i listed has been proved in this thread. And no i wont engage in listing these instances.

[twyzted]

Kinda wild that the whole argument against Jordan boils down to:
-90s sucked:
somehow adding 6 teams over 7 year period made the league watered down…
But adding 14 teams over a 15 year period had no impact.

-inflatting Jordans teammates to some perfectly fitting players, all time great role players.
.

inflating? no. we literally saw them play without MJ. callin it as it is aint inflatin. even if it hurts your idol. we literally switched from srs to raw wins and ur boi's team still won more than the 70 celts without 2 of their 3 best players. how the **** is that not stacked?

So in 94
Jordan retired.
They kept the coach and 2/3 best players while adding Luc Longley, Toni Kukoc, Pete Myers and Steve Kerr.
All of whom sloted into 4-5-6-7 players in the rotation.

Also i was talking about the role players not Pippen

Thanks for proving my point further

P.s what happened when Phil, Jordan and Pippen left in 98?

Spoiler:

They went from 62-20 75.6% 7.24srs to 13-37 26% -8.58srs (would be 20-62 in 82 games season