PC Board OT Thread Take 4 [No Politics]

[Colbinii]

Watch on YouTube

;ab_channel=StefanoConte

That shot at 1:35 was easily the greatest sky hook of Abdul-Jabbar's career.

And when it comes to GOAT candidates having roles in movies, this clears both Jordan and James in Space Jam, Chamberlain in Conan the Barbarian, and every other NBA player in history.

Shaq in Steel was pretty tough

I’m taking Uncut Gems Garnett over the field

Yup--KG was great in one of the only good Adam Sandler movies.

[rk2023]

Are we witnessing a future GOAT candidate in the making with Alcaraz? 2022 US Open and 2023 Wimbledon trophies now in the bag - at only 20 years old.

[rk2023]

https://youtu.be/BVJrDj5GbtM

Stoked for this series

[Dr Positivity]

Are we witnessing a future GOAT candidate in the making with Alcaraz? 2022 US Open and 2023 Wimbledon trophies now in the bag - at only 20 years old.

Definitely yung MJ potential here for tennis, he seems to have all the tools and I think he's hands down better than 20 year old Federer (2001), Nadal (2006 - on non clay at least) and Djokovic (2007).

I did always picture the next top guy after big 3 winning a human 8-12 majors and it feeling underwhelming though.

[Colbinii]

Are we witnessing a future GOAT candidate in the making with Alcaraz? 2022 US Open and 2023 Wimbledon trophies now in the bag - at only 20 years old.

Uhh...yeah. I mean, he has the deepest bag I have ever seen at the age of 20. His Power blows out what Nadal/Federer/Djokovic had in their primes and his fluidity within the point is unprecedented for a player of his age.

I have never seen anything like him. And his legs, holy ****, they are huge.

[rk2023]

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/07/23/sport/leon-marchand-michael-phelps-world-record-spt-intl/index.html

Wow … never in my lifetime would I have thought Phelps’ 400 IM record would have been shattered. Two 20/21 year olds are absolutely tearing up the individual sport scene right now.

[Goudelock]

Watching the 1996 playoff game between Utah and Seattle. I swear that Utah runs the same two plays during every halfcourt possession. You either have a pick and roll with Stockton and Malone, or you have the slightly more elaborate setup that goes something like this.

1: Stockton dribbles ball down the court.

2: Stockton passes ball to someone on the wing.

3: Stockton sets a screen for Malone, who cuts down to the low block.

4: Wing player passes to Malone, who isolates with a ton of space to work with because of the old illegal defense rules.

5: Malone either takes shot, or passes out after a hard double.

Repeat over and over and over and over.

[rk2023]

Watching the 1996 playoff game between Utah and Seattle. I swear that Utah runs the same two plays during every halfcourt possession. You either have a pick and roll with Stockton and Malone, or you have the slightly more elaborate setup that goes something like this.

1: Stockton dribbles ball down the court.

2: Stockton passes ball to someone on the wing.

3: Stockton sets a screen for Malone, who cuts down to the low block.

4: Wing player passes to Malone, who isolates with a ton of space to work with because of the old illegal defense rules.

5: Malone either takes shot, or passes out after a hard double.

Repeat over and over and over and over.

I noticed it as well after watching on NBATV tonight. It seems the Sonics were able to bend the Jazz defense more often than Utah which proved to be critical to squeeze out a 4 point win on the margins. I wasn’t impressed with Malone on either side off the ball Tbch.

[penbeast0]

I do love watching a little PG setting nasty screens out there.

[Colbinii]

Watching the 1996 playoff game between Utah and Seattle. I swear that Utah runs the same two plays during every halfcourt possession. You either have a pick and roll with Stockton and Malone, or you have the slightly more elaborate setup that goes something like this.

1: Stockton dribbles ball down the court.

2: Stockton passes ball to someone on the wing.

3: Stockton sets a screen for Malone, who cuts down to the low block.

4: Wing player passes to Malone, who isolates with a ton of space to work with because of the old illegal defense rules.

5: Malone either takes shot, or passes out after a hard double.

Repeat over and over and over and over.

The issue with the 1990s in general [especially the early to mid 1990s] is the blandness of strategy and lack of ingenuity. It is like all the coaches thought the game was solved, so much so that even when the league said "We will shorten this 3P line for you", the teams still rolled out the same, archaic strategy.

Honestly, the 1990s basketball is a lot like the movie Free Guy before he gets triggered.

[1993Playoffs]

Just a random thought.

But I think Lebron played like that in the 2011 finals only because he didn’t want to let someone else win FMVP because he thought that would hurt his case vs MJ

That’s the only way I can logically explain a guy that good playing so passive. He wasn’t even attacking them

[Doctor MJ]

Just a random thought.

But I think Lebron played like that in the 2011 finals only because he didn’t want to let someone else win FMVP because he thought that would hurt his case vs MJ

That’s the only way I can logically explain a guy that good playing so passive. He wasn’t even attacking them

I don’t think anything about that would be anywhere near as humiliating as what actually happened

I also saw a similar passivity the previous year from LeBron against Boston after it seemed to dawn on him that he had no answer, so to me the passivity isn’t something specific to the Heat.

Rather I think it speaks to him literally not being sure how to win.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[1993Playoffs]

Just a random thought.

But I think Lebron played like that in the 2011 finals only because he didn’t want to let someone else win FMVP because he thought that would hurt his case vs MJ

That’s the only way I can logically explain a guy that good playing so passive. He wasn’t even attacking them

I don’t think anything about that would be anywhere near as humiliating as what actually happened

I also saw a similar passivity the previous year from LeBron against Boston after it seemed to dawn on him that he had no answer, so to me the passivity isn’t something specific to the Heat.

Rather I think it speaks to him literally not being sure how to win.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It’s weird because in 2009 and most of 2010 he looked like he put it all together those seasons. Especially 2009 The way he played in the 2011 finals always baffled me

[Colbinii]

Just a random thought.

But I think Lebron played like that in the 2011 finals only because he didn’t want to let someone else win FMVP because he thought that would hurt his case vs MJ

That’s the only way I can logically explain a guy that good playing so passive. He wasn’t even attacking them

I don’t think anything about that would be anywhere near as humiliating as what actually happened

I also saw a similar passivity the previous year from LeBron against Boston after it seemed to dawn on him that he had no answer, so to me the passivity isn’t something specific to the Heat.

Rather I think it speaks to him literally not being sure how to win.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It’s weird because in 2009 and most of 2010 he looked like he put it all together those seasons. Especially 2009 The way he played in the 2011 finals always baffled me

Yeah but there were a few things going on in 2011 and let's not forget just how mentally taxing things can be in life.

LeBron decided to embrace the Villian in 2011 and he was still using social media. The combination of both of those things, along with he and Wade still being immature in a sense of knowing how to win led to LeBron not knowing how to win in the moment. He had a mental block, which is interesting because from 2013-Onward, he has arguably been the most mentally savvy player we have ever seen.

[Dr Positivity]

Just a random thought.

But I think Lebron played like that in the 2011 finals only because he didn’t want to let someone else win FMVP because he thought that would hurt his case vs MJ

That’s the only way I can logically explain a guy that good playing so passive. He wasn’t even attacking them

I think the biggest problem was Lebron didn't trust his jumpshot or posting up as much yet and the Mavs took advantage of it. Whereas in 2012 he destroyed Celtics with jumpshots in his famous game. That's why first run Cavs Lebron isn't his peak despite crazy playoff stats in 2009. Also Wade started series playing like 2006 so Lebron might have mentally committed to deferring to him and kept it that way even after Wade got injured and wasn't as good.

[rk2023]

I think 2009 and 2010 (pre the elbow / Celtics series meltdown) was the most impressive basketball of James’ career) - with 2012 and 13 not too far away, and of-course flanked by many great seasons. I certainly do tax a little for how 2010 ended, and decently more for 2011 - a campaign I’m not high on as a whole. In the grand scheme of things, it may be an underrated campaign, but without hesitation I’d take 2009-17 sans 2015 (and perhaps 2018/20) James over 11. No, I don’t think it’s a black mark that eats at a GOAT case, but it’s a dent at what I would think would surely be the GOAT 5 year span ever played without what transpired that year.

Sansterre’s analysis of the 11 Heat on greatest teams, some granular YoY breakdowns of James’ game by SideShowBob, and some film study from Dr. Spaceman (unsure if any of them still use the PC board) are all great sources of what I see as explaining factors. For me, it boils down to:

1. Hubris before the season, as seen by the “not 1..2..3..” remarks and willingness to embrace the villain role all year in response to scrutiny & a sense of disdain from the basketball world (my 5th grade self included) at the time.

2. Poor roster construction and offensive infrastructure. As I mentioned earlier, the "not 1/2/3" sentiment makes/made all the less sense considering the Heatles' abysmal spacing, pretty mediocre depth and skill-set versatility, and "mindset to let James and Wade figure it out on O" - them being the two best perimeter players [if not players, I would take Dirk > Wade myself] at the time - was a bottleneck from a team success standpoint. Found a good thread from 2015 brushing on this subject (emphasis on PaulieWal's first comment too - as it pertains to this particular subject).

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=1377189

3. New context / situation.
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2015946&p=86156169#p86156169

I linked Sansterre's T-100 project here as good food for thought. While I don't agree with some points for certain, I think it's an intriguing read as a whole from one who enjoys learning about the potential effects of "nurture" as it pertains to sport. I think a multitude of factors did create a sense of internal conflict for James (eg. having to floor raise to an unparalleled degree, the elbow injury, how 2010 ended, the desire to go down as the greatest and shatter expectations) where joining the Heat did provide some pros but at the trade-off of playing with another star (whom had won before) and under an ATG executive / GM in the Godfather himself. On top of that, iirc James was heavier then and trying to replicate a similar play-style as 2009/10 (harder to do without as much zap - let alone sharing touches with a very functionally similar player).

4. Murphy's Law. Sometimes, everything that could go wrong.. does go wrong. And was this the case with the '11 Finals. A sense of deferring to Wade and "not getting in the way", a poor offensive process as a team, the "monkey off the back" in powering through two slugfests with Boston and Chicago (two statistically better defenses) perhaps creating too much ease/confidence going in, internal conflict & self-consciousness while activating "fear" instead of "fight" led to a performance that essentially speaks for itself.

Yes that all happened. But I think it is the best thing to have happened to James' career in the grand scheme of things. Despite consistent scrutiny and banter (still seen to this day), I don't think James could have done a better job tuning his self-consciousness towards improvement [from an individual and team standpoint], not second guessing it and trusting a hunch to figure out opponents / get better as a series goes on, and never looking back amidst a real slap in the face.

[NO-KG-AI]

I think LeBron is just very much a thinker to the point of being an overthinker at points in his career. I remember even in the first Spurs final on the Heat, it felt like it was taking him forever to apply a ton of pressure when they were sagging off of him, like he was calculating the strategy a little bit too long and figuring out the perfect attack, when sometimes there isn't a perfect attack. Nowhere near on the Mavs series level, but his hesitation and speed of his adjustments seemed to take a lot more time than they did on his 2nd run with the Cavs.

I think he suffered from it really bad in his last year with the Cavs and his first with Miami, and it slowly went away with more success. Probably had a lot to do with his failures to capture titles in 2007 and in 2008 despite hammering teams with ridiculous flurries and being generally unstoppable.

[Doctor MJ]

Just a random thought.

But I think Lebron played like that in the 2011 finals only because he didn’t want to let someone else win FMVP because he thought that would hurt his case vs MJ

That’s the only way I can logically explain a guy that good playing so passive. He wasn’t even attacking them

I don’t think anything about that would be anywhere near as humiliating as what actually happened

I also saw a similar passivity the previous year from LeBron against Boston after it seemed to dawn on him that he had no answer, so to me the passivity isn’t something specific to the Heat.

Rather I think it speaks to him literally not being sure how to win.


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It’s weird because in 2009 and most of 2010 he looked like he put it all together those seasons. Especially 2009 The way he played in the 2011 finals always baffled me

I see this as him having the answer for most situations.

In the Boston series I think the answer is that there was no answer. Dallas was more damning because I think there was an answer, but the throughline is that when LeBron hit something he didn’t know the answer to, he hesitated.


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[Texas Chuck]

I mean I point this out a lot to empty ears, but Lebron played Dallas 8x that year, not just 6. And Dallas limited him considerably in those RS games as well. And they had 3 wing defenders who all thought they had business guarding him 1v1, 2 7 footers on the court behind those guys basically at all times, the best zone defense in the league against a team with not nearly enough shooting, etc...

I mean yes most of this is on Lebron. But Dallas should get more credit than they get. Some seem to believe that title is just about Dirk going HAM. And he certainly did in the RS(should have been MVP perhaps) and in the West, but that was also a very deep, veteran, complete team with the deepest coaching staff in the league.

Maybe give them a little credit?

[Colbinii]

I mean I point this out a lot to empty ears, but Lebron played Dallas 8x that year, not just 6. And Dallas limited him considerably in those RS games as well. And they had 3 wing defenders who all thought they had business guarding him 1v1, 2 7 footers on the court behind those guys basically at all times, the best zone defense in the league against a team with not nearly enough shooting, etc...

I mean yes most of this is on Lebron. But Dallas should get more credit than they get. Some seem to believe that title is just about Dirk going HAM. And he certainly did in the RS(should have been MVP perhaps) and in the West, but that was also a very deep, veteran, complete team with the deepest coaching staff in the league.

Maybe give them a little credit?

LeBron torched a team with Danny Green and Kawhi Leonard as defensive wings and with two 7' footers behind them [Duncan/Splitter] in both 2013 and 2014 [2 and 3 years later].

We can give credit for Dallas and focus on that aspect but talking about and focusing on LeBron and why he personally came up short doesn't necessarily sell Dallas short.