What's the strongest data-driven argument for Michael Jordan as GOAT?

[MavsDirk41]

I’ve said it here before, but I can’t have a person quit on the sport of basketball and walk away just to be dog**** at another and still be called the GOAT. If MJ really did have whatever the **** killer instinct is then he would’ve tried to break Russell’s record of 11. Burned out though. Y’all bought into the hype machine.

Lebron james quit on Cleveland twice and Miami once. So retiring is better than leaving your organization multiple times?

[MavsDirk41]

I’ve said it here before, but I can’t have a person quit on the sport of basketball and walk away just to be dog**** at another and still be called the GOAT. If MJ really did have whatever the **** killer instinct is then he would’ve tried to break Russell’s record of 11. Burned out though. Y’all bought into the hype machine.

I meant retiring is worse than leaving your organization? Why?

[The High Cyde]

I’ve said it here before, but I can’t have a person quit on the sport of basketball and walk away just to be dog**** at another and still be called the GOAT. If MJ really did have whatever the **** killer instinct is then he would’ve tried to break Russell’s record of 11. Burned out though. Y’all bought into the hype machine.

Lebron james quit on Cleveland twice and Miami once. So retiring is better than leaving your organization multiple times?

I’m not talking about LeBron

[gmoney411]

The Russell analogy is odd. Bill Russell, like Lebron, came close as close to monopolizing the side of the court he was gifted at and, like Lebron, functioned as an on-court coach directing his teammates where to go and making adjustments for himself and even the team based on the opposition. Bill Russell, also like Lebron, looks like an incredible floor-raiser and, like Lebron has won a championship against a better opponent than anyone Jordan's beat in any round with a team that was bad without him.

Bill Russell, like Lebron, does not take as many shots as Jordan does and could conceivably fit better next to high-volume scorers(Pippen was not that, Kyrie and Love were).

Bill Russell, like Lebron, was a capable defensive centerpiece who was able to anchor elite defenses with a variety of support, even alongside defensive negatives(smush and mosgov were that before they were traded to Cleveland, Kyrie and Love were that throughout).

Bill Russell, like Lebron, is as or more capable as a passer/ball-handler than he was as a scorer.

And Bill Russell, like Lebron, has actually proven their ability to fit-in and win with a variety of co-stars, in a variety of situations.

Micheal Jordan does not share any of these traits or achievements. Moreover many of the assumptions you've made to arrive at the conclusion that Jordan is a better cieling-raiser do not actually line-up with what has actually happened. The argument may "start there", but for it("port") to actually work you have to establish the following:

-> Lebron, with various advantages that we know are integral to high-level teams(including Chicago)(communication, rim-protection, passing, ect) is a worse fit on a majority of potential/likely championship winners that would somehow add up to more championships than the amount of teams Jordan is a worse fit on

-> Lebron, a generally more valuable player becomes less valuable as a result of this questionable fit. I imagine this is a bit difficult considering that Lebron empirically looked as or more valuable(similar rs, but his teams scale up more in the postseason) for multiple championships in what should have been a bad-fit in Miami

Without establishing those two-points, "floor-raiser" is just a buzz-word. And for those who actually look into the apparent impact Lebron has had in situations this theory predicts he should be disadvantaged relative to Jordan(poor-spacing, next to other helios, ect, ect), I think it becomes rather apparent, it doesn't really hold up.

LeBron is more valuable on teams than Jordan because he is the better all around player. But that's different than building a team around a player or pairing him with another superstar. Who is the dream sidekick to LeBron?

James has never been the better all around player lol

How isn't he? What makes Jordan the better all around player? I consider Jordan to be the superior player but I don't really see how he wins an all around argument.

[twyzted]

Where's the quote in your link that specifies LeBron was the one who wanted to trade for Davis? You're basically insinuating that LA had to be talked into pursuing a trade for AD.

Im sure Pelinka thought of it all by himself.
Pelinka convinced a klutch player to signal to other teams that he wouldnt resign if traded to other team then the Lakers.
Do you really think Lebron didnt have a say?

Of course he probably had a say. You're the one implying that Pelinka had nothing to do with it by posting a link that you falsely claimed it was LeBron that made the trade.

Thats true, i shouldve worded it diffrently.

[MavsDirk41]

I’ve said it here before, but I can’t have a person quit on the sport of basketball and walk away just to be dog**** at another and still be called the GOAT. If MJ really did have whatever the **** killer instinct is then he would’ve tried to break Russell’s record of 11. Burned out though. Y’all bought into the hype machine.

Lebron james quit on Cleveland twice and Miami once. So retiring is better than leaving your organization multiple times?

I’m not talking about LeBron

What does being bad at baseball have to do with his achievements on the court?

Nobody is catching Russells record of 11 rings lol. Thats a pretty weak excuse to trash on the guy honestly.

[The High Cyde]

Lebron james quit on Cleveland twice and Miami once. So retiring is better than leaving your organization multiple times?

I’m not talking about LeBron

What does being bad at baseball have to do with his achievements on the court?

Nobody is catching Russells record of 11 rings lol. Thats a pretty weak excuse to trash on the guy honestly.

It’s a thing of principle to me. How can you be the greatest at something that you quit at? It’s disrespectful to the players that actually did play all that they could and gave everything they had to the sport. MJ isn’t head and shoulders above players like Kareem, James, Russell where he can basically take a sabbatical and come back like nothing happened. It’s fine if you feel differently, but I can’t have MJ as number 1 simply because he walked away.

[OhayoKD]

Reggie Miller, Kevin Durant, Rasheed Wallace, Paul-Pierce, Klay Thompson, Kawhi Leonard, ect. Heck a healthy 30+ Ben Wallace was enough for the 09 Cavs to play +10 basketball. Who knows what happens if he stays healthy. And then there's Anthony Davis who Lebron rather comfortably won with in year 17. I do not know Kyrie is an "ideal" fit(defense mainly), but the the 16 and 17 cavs were both historically strong playoff teams and the 15 cavs were looking the part before irving and love got hurt.

Even Wade-Lebron-Bosh acheived impressive results when they shared the floor(peaking at +13.8 during the 12 playoffs as they survived various injuries in conference before running roughshod over a strong finals opponent). They would then beat a team with a better srs and psrs than the 90 pistons with wade's knees breaking down(were being operated on mid-playoffs as early as 2012).

I do not see much reason to assume Lebron is harder to pair with great players. He's probably a worse fit with strong primary on-ball playmakers(though he has done rather well in those situations), but he is probably easier to pair with high-volume scorers(kyrie comes to mind), weak defenders(love, kyrie, ect), off-ball engines(this is hypothetical), and elite vertical spacers(AD). That doesn't seem like a narrow range and he has certain advantages(defnesive and offensive orchestration, paint-protection) that fit well next to basically anyone(historically defensive anchors are the most proven in terms of translating individual impact(russell, kareem) and team-success(duncan, kareem), in different contexts.

Using LeBrons superteam hopping attempts to try and push the narrative that he's "proven to win with a variety of casts unlike MJ" is some high level PR master tier spin. I'm actually impressed at the attempt

Winning with a variety of casts is....winning with a variety of casts. That is not spin, that is an accurate description of events. "Superteam hopping" when Lebron has never played with a team that has shown they were capable of contending without him is spin.

[MavsDirk41]

LeBron is more valuable on teams than Jordan because he is the better all around player. But that's different than building a team around a player or pairing him with another superstar. Who is the dream sidekick to LeBron?

James has never been the better all around player lol

How isn't he? What makes Jordan the better all around player? I consider Jordan to be the superior player but I don't really see how he wins an all around argument.

He is more versatile offensively. Mid range, post game, 84% pct free throw shooter, solid assist numbers for a scoring 2 guard, could get to the rim. His only weakness was 3 point shooting

Defensively he was strong, quick, great instincts as a help defender/individual defender, high level iq, led the league in steals for 3 years

He might have been an a hole to his teammates but he held himself and his teammates to a higher standard. He stuck with the Bulls organization and rewarded them with 6 championships. He had help obviously but he was the centerpiece of it.

He is the most clutch player ive ever seen.

James is the better passer but thats it.

[KembaWalker]

Using LeBrons superteam hopping attempts to try and push the narrative that he's "proven to win with a variety of casts unlike MJ" is some high level PR master tier spin. I'm actually impressed at the attempt

Winning with a variety of casts is....winning with a variety of casts. That is not spin, that is an accurate description of events. "Superteam hopping" when Lebron has never played with a team that has shown they were capable of contending without him is spin.

yeah as if ditching the Bulls to make a team with Barkley and Ewing would be some sort of big legacy booster. You can push that ridiculous narrative as much as you want but nobody is buying it

[gmoney411]

Reggie Miller, Kevin Durant, Rasheed Wallace, Paul-Pierce, Klay Thompson, Kawhi Leonard, ect. Heck a healthy 30+ Ben Wallace was enough for the 09 Cavs to play +10 basketball. Who knows what happens if he stays healthy. And then there's Anthony Davis who Lebron rather comfortably won with in year 17. I do not know Kyrie is an "ideal" fit(defense mainly), but the the 16 and 17 cavs were both historically strong playoff teams and the 15 cavs were looking the part before irving and love got hurt.

Even Wade-Lebron-Bosh acheived impressive results when they shared the floor(peaking at +13.8 during the 12 playoffs as they survived various injuries in conference before running roughshod over a strong finals opponent). They would then beat a team with a better srs and psrs than the 90 pistons with wade's knees breaking down(were being operated on mid-playoffs as early as 2012).

I do not see much reason to assume Lebron is harder to pair with great players. He's probably a worse fit with strong primary on-ball playmakers(though he has done rather well in those situations), but he is probably easier to pair with high-volume scorers(kyrie comes to mind), weak defenders(love, kyrie, ect), off-ball engines(this is hypothetical), and elite vertical spacers(AD). That doesn't seem like a narrow range and he has certain advantages(defnesive and offensive orchestration, paint-protection) that fit well next to basically anyone(historically defensive anchors are the most proven in terms of translating individual impact(russell, kareem) and team-success(duncan, kareem), in different contexts.

Using LeBrons superteam hopping attempts to try and push the narrative that he's "proven to win with a variety of casts unlike MJ" is some high level PR master tier spin. I'm actually impressed at the attempt

Winning with a variety of casts is....winning with a variety of casts. That is not spin, that is an accurate description of events. "Superteam hopping" when Lebron has never played with a team that has shown they were capable of contending without him is spin.

You are making a little bit of a straw man argument. I said Jordan was easier to optimize. I agree that high volume guards are a better fit with LeBron but I think most other players are better with Jordan because he wouldn't take away from their strengths and offers better floor spacing.

[MavsDirk41]

I’m not talking about LeBron

What does being bad at baseball have to do with his achievements on the court?

Nobody is catching Russells record of 11 rings lol. Thats a pretty weak excuse to trash on the guy honestly.

It’s a thing of principle to me. How can you be the greatest at something that you quit at? It’s disrespectful to the players that actually did play all that they could and gave everything they had to the sport. MJ isn’t head and shoulders above players like Kareem, James, Russell where he can basically take a sabbatical and come back like nothing happened. It’s fine if you feel differently, but I can’t have MJ as number 1 simply because he walked away.

Your opinion and i resoect it but i cant have a player who was not only outplayed by the other teams star player in the finals, but wasnt even the best player on his own team as the goat. There is just no way.

[gmoney411]

James has never been the better all around player lol

How isn't he? What makes Jordan the better all around player? I consider Jordan to be the superior player but I don't really see how he wins an all around argument.

He is more versatile offensively. Mid range, post game, 84% pct free throw shooter, solid assist numbers for a scoring 2 guard, could get to the rim. His only weakness was 3 point shooting

Defensively he was strong, quick, great instincts as a help defender/individual defender, high level iq, led the league in steals for 3 years

He might have been an a hole to his teammates but he held himself and his teammates to a higher standard. He stuck with the Bulls organization and rewarded them with 6 championships. He had help obviously but he was the centerpiece of it.

He is the most clutch player ive ever seen.

James is the better passer but thats it.

LeBron is the better team defender. He's also the more versatile defender based on his size and also creates more offensive mismatches based on his size.

[The High Cyde]

What does being bad at baseball have to do with his achievements on the court?

Nobody is catching Russells record of 11 rings lol. Thats a pretty weak excuse to trash on the guy honestly.

It’s a thing of principle to me. How can you be the greatest at something that you quit at? It’s disrespectful to the players that actually did play all that they could and gave everything they had to the sport. MJ isn’t head and shoulders above players like Kareem, James, Russell where he can basically take a sabbatical and come back like nothing happened. It’s fine if you feel differently, but I can’t have MJ as number 1 simply because he walked away.

Your opinion and i resoect it but i cant have a player who was not only outplayed by the other teams star player in the finals, but wasnt even the best player on his own team as the goat. There is just no way.

Awesome, though you have to actually be in the league to do that

[MavsDirk41]

Reggie Miller, Kevin Durant, Rasheed Wallace, Paul-Pierce, Klay Thompson, Kawhi Leonard, ect. Heck a healthy 30+ Ben Wallace was enough for the 09 Cavs to play +10 basketball. Who knows what happens if he stays healthy. And then there's Anthony Davis who Lebron rather comfortably won with in year 17. I do not know Kyrie is an "ideal" fit(defense mainly), but the the 16 and 17 cavs were both historically strong playoff teams and the 15 cavs were looking the part before irving and love got hurt.

Even Wade-Lebron-Bosh acheived impressive results when they shared the floor(peaking at +13.8 during the 12 playoffs as they survived various injuries in conference before running roughshod over a strong finals opponent). They would then beat a team with a better srs and psrs than the 90 pistons with wade's knees breaking down(were being operated on mid-playoffs as early as 2012).

I do not see much reason to assume Lebron is harder to pair with great players. He's probably a worse fit with strong primary on-ball playmakers(though he has done rather well in those situations), but he is probably easier to pair with high-volume scorers(kyrie comes to mind), weak defenders(love, kyrie, ect), off-ball engines(this is hypothetical), and elite vertical spacers(AD). That doesn't seem like a narrow range and he has certain advantages(defnesive and offensive orchestration, paint-protection) that fit well next to basically anyone(historically defensive anchors are the most proven in terms of translating individual impact(russell, kareem) and team-success(duncan, kareem), in different contexts.

Using LeBrons superteam hopping attempts to try and push the narrative that he's "proven to win with a variety of casts unlike MJ" is some high level PR master tier spin. I'm actually impressed at the attempt

Winning with a variety of casts is....winning with a variety of casts. That is not spin, that is an accurate description of events. "Superteam hopping" when Lebron has never played with a team that has shown they were capable of contending without him is spin.

Come on man where is your proof that James is smarter? Why you dodging the question? You said it not me lol..

And building superteams with other all star players isnt all that impressive

[MavsDirk41]

It’s a thing of principle to me. How can you be the greatest at something that you quit at? It’s disrespectful to the players that actually did play all that they could and gave everything they had to the sport. MJ isn’t head and shoulders above players like Kareem, James, Russell where he can basically take a sabbatical and come back like nothing happened. It’s fine if you feel differently, but I can’t have MJ as number 1 simply because he walked away.

Your opinion and i resoect it but i cant have a player who was not only outplayed by the other teams star player in the finals, but wasnt even the best player on his own team as the goat. There is just no way.

Awesome, though you have to actually be in the league to do that

You can crap on jordan for quitting and im gonna just remind you how lebron james choked in the finals lol

Worst finals performance ever by a top 5 player

[The High Cyde]

Your opinion and i resoect it but i cant have a player who was not only outplayed by the other teams star player in the finals, but wasnt even the best player on his own team as the goat. There is just no way.

Awesome, though you have to actually be in the league to do that

You can crap on jordan for quitting and im gonna just remind you how lebron james choked in the finals lol

Worst finals performance ever by a top 5 player

*shrug I barely mentioned LeBron
I’ve read all 50 pages of this thread so I’m not surprised on this encounter

[MavsDirk41]

How isn't he? What makes Jordan the better all around player? I consider Jordan to be the superior player but I don't really see how he wins an all around argument.

He is more versatile offensively. Mid range, post game, 84% pct free throw shooter, solid assist numbers for a scoring 2 guard, could get to the rim. His only weakness was 3 point shooting

Defensively he was strong, quick, great instincts as a help defender/individual defender, high level iq, led the league in steals for 3 years

He might have been an a hole to his teammates but he held himself and his teammates to a higher standard. He stuck with the Bulls organization and rewarded them with 6 championships. He had help obviously but he was the centerpiece of it.

He is the most clutch player ive ever seen.

James is the better passer but thats it.

LeBron is the better team defender. He's also the more versatile defender based on his size and also creates more offensive mismatches based on his size.

I disagree about him being a better team defender. I will say that Jordan played with more defensive talent (Pippen, Grant, Rodman, Harper) than James while James played with more offensive talent (Wade, Bosh, Love, Irving, Davis).

But i havent seen anything that validates James being a better team defender. You can say he has more size obviously but jordan was quicker too. Creating more offensive mismatches cause his size ok. But Jordan played in the triangle that focused on ball movement. James plays with the ball in his hands most of the time on that side of the court.

[gmoney411]

He is more versatile offensively. Mid range, post game, 84% pct free throw shooter, solid assist numbers for a scoring 2 guard, could get to the rim. His only weakness was 3 point shooting

Defensively he was strong, quick, great instincts as a help defender/individual defender, high level iq, led the league in steals for 3 years

He might have been an a hole to his teammates but he held himself and his teammates to a higher standard. He stuck with the Bulls organization and rewarded them with 6 championships. He had help obviously but he was the centerpiece of it.

He is the most clutch player ive ever seen.

James is the better passer but thats it.

LeBron is the better team defender. He's also the more versatile defender based on his size and also creates more offensive mismatches based on his size.

I disagree about him being a better team defender. I will say that Jordan played with more defensive talent (Pippen, Grant, Rodman, Harper) than James while James played with more offensive talent (Wade, Bosh, Love, Irving, Davis).

But i havent seen anything that validates James being a better team defender. You can say he has more size obviously but jordan was quicker too. Creating more offensive mismatches cause his size ok. But Jordan played in the triangle that focused on ball movement. James plays with the ball in his hands most of the time on that side of the court.

Defensive is hard to track but Lebron's size and strength makes him the better team defender imo. He can switch onto basically anybody and can offer help on anybody. Jordan was probably the better man defender though.

Lebron's claim to fame is his swarm army knife skill set. Jordan didn't really play the game that way. Maybe Jordan could have been the better all around player in this era but if you are looking at both careers it's hard to argue for Jordan being the better all around player. (I will not accept this same logic for someone trying to say LeBron is a better shooter than Lebron though lol)

[MavsDirk41]

Awesome, though you have to actually be in the league to do that

You can crap on jordan for quitting and im gonna just remind you how lebron james choked in the finals lol

Worst finals performance ever by a top 5 player

*shrug I barely mentioned LeBron
I’ve read all 50 pages of this thread so I’m not surprised on this encounter

Ok man cool. I dont like james at all. No problem admitting it. You are salty towards Jordan for retiring which yea he quit. But you are bias against which is ok. Just dont act like you arent.