Pascal Siakam Trade Discussion 2 (UPDATE PG. 90 - Shams)

[OakleyDokely]

Great plan except what does Pascal want? What if HE chooses to not sign an extension this offseason? Not only is it advantageous for him to wait till next offseason, I'm sure he'd be upset knowing he was just shopped.

I still believe if he's offered the 4/190 now, he will take it.

There's a lot of risk on Siakam's part to turn down close to 200 million. There's no guarantee he makes all-nba. There's no guarantee that even if he makes all-nba the Raps offer the super max, there's also no guarantee he stays healthy all season. If he sustains a major injury, the likelihood of him getting a 4 or 5 year deal at 30 becomes low.

If you believe he would take the 4/192 now, then why is there all this concern regarding the max or supermax next offseason? If Pascal plays out the season and doesn't get the max/supermax, his fallback is a 4/184.5 with another team - and there will be several teams that could offer him that next offseason. Worked out well for FvV and Pascal may choose to take that route as well, he may not but it's a gamble that has a helluva payoff. In either scenario, is it advantageous for the team to have Pascal on a max for at least 4 more years after next offseason? Doesn't seem prudent to go into the tax for a team that won't be in contention.

This concern is mostly fan/media related imo. Nobody on either side has mentioned anything about a supermax.

The Raps reportedly haven't offered any type of extension this offseason, so we really don't know where either side stands.

[ArthurVandelay]

Just out of curiosity, what are some players you would consider to be premium assets?

Anything Portland offered would've been better

Simons + Sharpe
Ben Mat from Indy
Kuminga + Moody or several picks

I'm sure there's a couple more semi-realistic players I can think of

Sharpe not being moved for Siakam.

The Ghost of Draft Season Past makes an appearance

[docholliday99]

All that's been floated from Siakam's camp is that he'd like to stay in TOR and that he won't sign an extension right away with a new team. Which makes perfect sense. Would you commit to a new team long term without playing so much as a preseason game with them?

Reality is though, the vast majority of max players re-sign with their current team because they can pay the most. Any team that trades for Siakam would have to feel confident that they could re-sign him otherwise they wouldn't make the deal for him.

He didn't say he won't sign an extension right away, it's been reported he "won't resign with any team that trades for him". That's a big value killer for a return in potential assets - now teams have to view Pascal as a rental.

[docholliday99]

I still believe if he's offered the 4/190 now, he will take it.

There's a lot of risk on Siakam's part to turn down close to 200 million. There's no guarantee he makes all-nba. There's no guarantee that even if he makes all-nba the Raps offer the super max, there's also no guarantee he stays healthy all season. If he sustains a major injury, the likelihood of him getting a 4 or 5 year deal at 30 becomes low.

If you believe he would take the 4/192 now, then why is there all this concern regarding the max or supermax next offseason? If Pascal plays out the season and doesn't get the max/supermax, his fallback is a 4/184.5 with another team - and there will be several teams that could offer him that next offseason. Worked out well for FvV and Pascal may choose to take that route as well, he may not but it's a gamble that has a helluva payoff. In either scenario, is it advantageous for the team to have Pascal on a max for at least 4 more years after next offseason? Doesn't seem prudent to go into the tax for a team that won't be in contention.

This concern is mostly fan/media related imo. Nobody on either side has mentioned anything about a supermax.

The Raps reportedly haven't offered any type of extension this offseason, so we really don't know where either side stands.

The fact that Toronto hasn't offered an extension yet is kinda of a big deal. The reports from Lou, taken with a grain of salt of course, had Pascal staying away from Vegas as he was positive he was going to be traded. If the team wants a young player that was in the draft, Bufkin, Lively, whomever, a trade can't happen yet - not for a couple weeks anyways.

[OakleyDokely]

All that's been floated from Siakam's camp is that he'd like to stay in TOR and that he won't sign an extension right away with a new team. Which makes perfect sense. Would you commit to a new team long term without playing so much as a preseason game with them?

Reality is though, the vast majority of max players re-sign with their current team because they can pay the most. Any team that trades for Siakam would have to feel confident that they could re-sign him otherwise they wouldn't make the deal for him.

He didn't say he won't sign an extension right away, it's been reported he "won't resign with any team that trades for him". That's a big value killer for a return in potential assets - now teams have to view Pascal as a rental.

Until that team offers him the most money.

He might not sign right away but his existing team is still very much the favorite to sign him.

[JRoy]

Anything Portland offered would've been better

Simons + Sharpe
Ben Mat from Indy
Kuminga + Moody or several picks

I'm sure there's a couple more semi-realistic players I can think of

Sharpe not being moved for Siakam.

The Ghost of Draft Season Past makes an appearance

Why would I leave?

This is the best forum on this site.

Mods aren’t pussies and let folks speak.

[JRoy]

Anything Portland offered would've been better

Simons + Sharpe
Ben Mat from Indy
Kuminga + Moody or several picks

I'm sure there's a couple more semi-realistic players I can think of

Sharpe not being moved for Siakam.

I really don't care for Sharpe so that's a good thing.

Do you TOR will keep PS, knowing they will be paying him like a top tier player that he is not? Better idea to move him but he’s made that tough.

[DreamTeam09]

Sharpe not being moved for Siakam.

I really don't care for Sharpe so that's a good thing.

Do you TOR will keep PS, knowing they will be paying him like a top tier player that he is not? Better idea to move him but he’s made that tough.

Lamello n Bane just got 5/200+
I'll take Pascal at 4/-200 & that wouldn't make him paid like a top tier player.

Brown is about to get 5/300 and Tatum even more

[Federalies]

Sharpe not being moved for Siakam.

I really don't care for Sharpe so that's a good thing.

Do you TOR will keep PS, knowing they will be paying him like a top tier player that he is not? Better idea to move him but he’s made that tough.

While there’s variation, as with every board, I’d suggest our general view is that there’s a decent chance he’s traded but it won’t be for scraps and if it’s an extension it’ll be something less than a Supermax. Any extension will look huge initially but likely to become average over the next few years as the CAP goes up and other less accomplished players sign for more!

[Morse Code]

I couldn’t have said it better myself.

Imagine missing the playoffs with this group and then trying to run it back with a rookie (Dick) and new coach and expecting a substantially different result.

Woah. Let's not get all revisionist history here.

The run it back scenario had nothing to do with drafting Dick. It was always about how much better the team looked post Yak trade.

It was clear that Masai and co pivoted mid season and admitted the only way the core group could work was with a real C. They made the trade and the results spoke for themselves. The starting lineup was excellent.

They gambled and it almost paid off... Fred got the overpay. Otherwise we'd be running it back except with (hopefully) a healthy Otto, and McDaniels (assuming he was on the radar regarldess of fred situation.)

They knew the roster had problems, including chemistry, but that is why Nurse was gone. A new coach would've had a bit of a clean slate to try maximize a roster they clearly believed in. And I don't see any reason to believe that Toronto would've been a top 5 team in east this year and have a legit chance to pull a Miami.

Now that Fred is gone, we obviously need to change things up, but we are in a good position. It just seems bad because we are in the dark right now and until we see how the Pascal, OG scenarios play out it hard to understand how things will work.

Personally, I'm excited about the future. This year is going to be great for Scottie. Him getting more usage and ball handling duties is going to be a great benefit long term even if it doesn't pay off in the short term.

What on earth were you watching? Post trade deadline we went what? 15-11? Lets have a look at the competition we beat during that stretch.

Pistons (No cade- trash team)
Magic (lottery team)
Pelicans (No Zion, team is trash)
Pistons (g league team)
Bulls (Lottery team)
Wizards (g-league team)
Nuggets (Solid win)
Thunder (lottery team)
Wolves (barely made playoffs, didn’t have Kat or Edwards)
Pistons (g league team no cade)
Wizards (actual g league team)
Heat (no jimmy butler)
Hornets (team sucks, no Melo)
Hornets (team sucks, no Melo)
Bucks (no Giannis, Middleton, Holiday)

Literally the only solid win we had during that stretch was vs the Nuggets. Every other team was either missing their best players or the team was a lottery team or borderline G league level squad. Getting a decent C wasn't magically going to fix this team.

Been saying this forever. I hate that “we performed better with Yak” argument. No we didn’t. Team still had zero spacing and couldn’t even beat Chicago in the play-in. That roster sucks plain and simple.

[OakleyDokely]

The Raps did perform better with Yak on the court. They had an insane net rating with him playing. The problem was when he wasn't playing or when they went to their bench lineups, which got killed.

[YogurtProducer]

I couldn’t have said it better myself.

Imagine missing the playoffs with this group and then trying to run it back with a rookie (Dick) and new coach and expecting a substantially different result.

Woah. Let's not get all revisionist history here.

The run it back scenario had nothing to do with drafting Dick. It was always about how much better the team looked post Yak trade.

It was clear that Masai and co pivoted mid season and admitted the only way the core group could work was with a real C. They made the trade and the results spoke for themselves. The starting lineup was excellent.

They gambled and it almost paid off... Fred got the overpay. Otherwise we'd be running it back except with (hopefully) a healthy Otto, and McDaniels (assuming he was on the radar regarldess of fred situation.)

They knew the roster had problems, including chemistry, but that is why Nurse was gone. A new coach would've had a bit of a clean slate to try maximize a roster they clearly believed in. And I don't see any reason to believe that Toronto would've been a top 5 team in east this year and have a legit chance to pull a Miami.

Now that Fred is gone, we obviously need to change things up, but we are in a good position. It just seems bad because we are in the dark right now and until we see how the Pascal, OG scenarios play out it hard to understand how things will work.

Personally, I'm excited about the future. This year is going to be great for Scottie. Him getting more usage and ball handling duties is going to be a great benefit long term even if it doesn't pay off in the short term.

What on earth were you watching? Post trade deadline we went what? 15-11? Lets have a look at the competition we beat during that stretch.

Pistons (No cade- trash team)
Magic (lottery team)
Pelicans (No Zion, team is trash)
Pistons (g league team)
Bulls (Lottery team)
Wizards (g-league team)
Nuggets (Solid win)
Thunder (lottery team)
Wolves (barely made playoffs, didn’t have Kat or Edwards)
Pistons (g league team no cade)
Wizards (actual g league team)
Heat (no jimmy butler)
Hornets (team sucks, no Melo)
Hornets (team sucks, no Melo)
Bucks (no Giannis, Middleton, Holiday)

Literally the only solid win we had during that stretch was vs the Nuggets. Every other team was either missing their best players or the team was a lottery team or borderline G league level squad. Getting a decent C wasn't magically going to fix this team.

Also had some good losses though that showed we were more competitive than before:

- 5 point loss to a healthy Denver on the road
- 8 point loss to a healthy LAC on the road (Kawhi + PG both played)
- 10 point loss to a healthy LAL on the road (was winning entering the 4th)
- 7 point loss to MIL with Giannis/Jrue/Khris/Lopez all playing on the road (again, was winning going into the 4th)

Our schedule to end the year was pretty much against the top 5 and bottom 5-ish teams in the entire league. We (mostly) beat the teams we "should beat", and we (mostly) were competitive against the elite teams in the league.

But hey, we better hyper focus on the one or two bad games in a 30 game stretch to show that we sucked.

A positive sign was we were 11-1 at home after the trade. Good teams defend home court, and generally **** happens on the road (only 7 teams had winning road records last year, the NBA champ Nuggets were 19-22 on the road lol).

[dTox]

At the end of the day, you are what your record is

Sent from my Pixel 6 Pro using Tapatalk

[Fairview4Life]

At the end of the day, you are what your record is

Sent from my Pixel 6 Pro using Tapatalk

Yes, but figuring out why your record is what it is is important. For example, if your starting lineup is winning every matchup but your bench is costing you games, that might help you figure out where to spend some money or what to focus on, etc..

[pilkoids]

If we're rolling with Siakam this season this trade talk will hang over him and the team until the trade deadline. Wonder how much of a distraction it will be and how it affects the teams performance.

[WuTang_CMB]

If we're rolling with Siakam this season this trade talk will hang over him and the team until the trade deadline. Wonder how much of a distraction it will be and how it affects the teams performance.

It needs to be sorted out prior to season starting else it will just be a media circus. It's already bad now

My sense is they have an internal deadline of exploring trades for him and if they dont receive what they want they will pivot to extending him ... and hopefully the money is enough for siakam to brush it off and move on

[Harcore Fenton Mun]

At least Siakam wont "bet on himself" and jack up eight threes per game. His play falls within the offence.

[ArthurVandelay]

If we're rolling with Siakam this season this trade talk will hang over him and the team until the trade deadline. Wonder how much of a distraction it will be and how it affects the teams performance.

Probably as well as last year.

I like Siakam, but it’s time. Trade him.

[Morse Code]

The Raps did perform better with Yak on the court. They had an insane net rating with him playing. The problem was when he wasn't playing or when they went to their bench lineups, which got killed.

Of course they did. Did you see their opponents in that stretch?

[Raptorfan2012]

I couldn’t have said it better myself.

Imagine missing the playoffs with this group and then trying to run it back with a rookie (Dick) and new coach and expecting a substantially different result.

Woah. Let's not get all revisionist history here.

The run it back scenario had nothing to do with drafting Dick. It was always about how much better the team looked post Yak trade.

It was clear that Masai and co pivoted mid season and admitted the only way the core group could work was with a real C. They made the trade and the results spoke for themselves. The starting lineup was excellent.

They gambled and it almost paid off... Fred got the overpay. Otherwise we'd be running it back except with (hopefully) a healthy Otto, and McDaniels (assuming he was on the radar regarldess of fred situation.)

They knew the roster had problems, including chemistry, but that is why Nurse was gone. A new coach would've had a bit of a clean slate to try maximize a roster they clearly believed in. And I don't see any reason to believe that Toronto would've been a top 5 team in east this year and have a legit chance to pull a Miami.

Now that Fred is gone, we obviously need to change things up, but we are in a good position. It just seems bad because we are in the dark right now and until we see how the Pascal, OG scenarios play out it hard to understand how things will work.

Personally, I'm excited about the future. This year is going to be great for Scottie. Him getting more usage and ball handling duties is going to be a great benefit long term even if it doesn't pay off in the short term.

What on earth were you watching? Post trade deadline we went what? 15-11? Lets have a look at the competition we beat during that stretch.

Pistons (No cade- trash team)
Magic (lottery team)
Pelicans (No Zion, team is trash)
Pistons (g league team)
Bulls (Lottery team)
Wizards (g-league team)
Nuggets (Solid win)
Thunder (lottery team)
Wolves (barely made playoffs, didn’t have Kat or Edwards)
Pistons (g league team no cade)
Wizards (actual g league team)
Heat (no jimmy butler)
Hornets (team sucks, no Melo)
Hornets (team sucks, no Melo)
Bucks (no Giannis, Middleton, Holiday)

Literally the only solid win we had during that stretch was vs the Nuggets. Every other team was either missing their best players or the team was a lottery team or borderline G league level squad. Getting a decent C wasn't magically going to fix this team.

Hey you are pretty good at this. Can you please do something similar for all our losses when we had key players out. Might as well do something similar for the other 29 teams so we can track what type of wins those teams had as well.