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Position Battles: SG

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Which SG gets the most starts in 2023-24?

Gary Harris
25
29%
Jalen Suggs
54
63%
Jett Howard
5
6%
Joe Ingles
2
2%
Caleb Houstan
0
No votes
Kavon Harris
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 86

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Re: Position Battles: SG 

Post#41 » by drsd » Mon Jul 17, 2023 11:29 pm

Max Power wrote:I’m with the masses on this one. I think you start Suggs at the 2. We’ve gotta give him the shot to earn it. Harris is a solid, yet unspectacular vet. I think if leveling up is the goal, Suggs is the guy you start because at the very least he’ll be solid on offense and a high impact defender.


G-Harris was awful on offense. Most set plays he was completely out of it. Orlando was playing 4-on-5 when not on a fast break. In that sense, Suggs would be a better offensive player if he was simply moving around and involved in the play.

If the Magic intend to trade G-Harris at some point this season, then yes, start Suggs from day-1.
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Re: Position Battles: SG 

Post#42 » by pepe1991 » Tue Jul 18, 2023 8:14 am

It's more complicated than just giving Suggs starting job at expense of Harris.

Harris is ultra anemic player, one of least productive, box score vise, starters in nba.

But thing he can do is shoot, and thing he provides even when he is not touching the ball is spacing.

Replacing 43% three point shooter with 33% shooter is noticable and steep.


And once you clog paint with Banchero, Suggs and Fultz, and your second most reliable shooter is Wendell, you are wracking whole team dynamic as your center, who is most comfortable around rim, now needs to pretend he is Mo Bamba for sake of other players and driving lines. And by design, Banchero will face more double teams than before ,since now both guards aren't really treat to punish you from outside.


Maybe, maybe you can get away with it in regular season, but that starting 5 will get exposed in playoffs in most painful way possible.


Things where Harris excelles, Suggs can't follow.

Catch & shoot. Harris 43% - Suggs 34,8%.
eFG off catch 64% vs 51%
pullup 3s- 45% vs 30%
pullups in general 42% vs 34%

If you think those numbers aren't far off, those co-relations are very similar between Steph Curry and Jordan Poole, so you decide how close they actually are.



Fultz and Suggs simply don't compliment each other at all. Fultz off ball is already problematic, Suggs on ball is problematic, Suggs off ball is learn on fly, both off ball and you might as well not play with "PG" at all and replace them with Harris and Jett or Ingles.

I tracked down game where Fultz and Suggs played together for several min ( vs Heat, at February ) and it's mostly lot of this

Image

Fultz ghosted in corner, Wendell should be screening for Suggs, but Suggs doesn't have it in him to play off ball and run around Wendell off curlt for shoot because that's unnatural for former playmaker


Second half of same game and same problems continue

Image

Suggs is told by Banchero to use drag screen to go on perimeter, but he once again doesn't use screen. In picture it seems like he does ,but again, he doesn't make hard cut, rather leaks out and wants for ball. Because that's what playmakers do. Hold ball. Any normal shooter ( Strus in literally play before this one for example) would do hard cut , go around Mortiz and step into a 3. Instad, Suggs gets flatfooted, leaks near half court ,and doesn't get ball. ( Possession ends in some awkward off ball foul on Mortiz that lead to 2 FTA due bonus)



Image

And last, again, it's simply impossible to understand why is Suggs standing where he is standing. if he moves to his right, he will stand in path of Fultz and block him, if he goes right, he is clashing into Mortiz. And this is situation where Magic have 6'11 Isaac, 6'11 Mortiz and 6'10 Banchero on floor, with tallest Heat player being 6'5. You think anybody on Magic recognized gapping missmatch adventage? :lol:


Only tengable adventage of playing two playmakers is to have two players who process game quicker than anybody else. Suggs simply isn't that guy. He moves like point guard, but is such a disaster when it comes to decision making that he hurts your offense no matter is he on ball or off the ball. And paired with Fultz those problem just get so much worst because Fultz is aposlute no treat for opponents without ball, and on ball, everybody knows he is two tricks pony- penetration or middle range pullup.


Suggs whole problem is that he has one gear- go balls to a wall with brain on autopilot. If he can't slow a f*** down and start thinking what he is doing on offense, it doesn't matter will he play PG, SG, SF, PF or C, he will never be starting level player anywhere.

as for game, if anybody cares, we were up near 20, lost in OT but on surface Fultz and Suggs had nice box numbers, however, when they played together, it was mostly just messy.
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Re: Position Battles: SG 

Post#43 » by VFX » Tue Jul 18, 2023 3:38 pm

The obvious answer is Jalen Suggs.
The problem with that answer is regarding the rest of the starting lineup.

You are relying on Suggs development at shooting because Fultz simply doesn't.

I understand Mosely starting Gary Harris for the reliability of having a vet in the lineup that can hit shots at decent volume (albeit extremely low). However, isn't that just adjusting everything to the fact that Fultz is a mediocre defender and a net negative on the court from outside?

Suggs needs to hit the next level in his shooting progression to alleviate Fultz to make sense in the starting lineup next to him. Gary is a decent one on one defender but he is nowhere near as good as Suggs off-ball creating opportunities to win basketball games.

I have no problem with Cole and Jalen coming off the bench and outworking Markelle and Gary in every facet of the game. They did it last season why couldn't they do it again? They were the better pairing between the two. So what are we even talking about anymore? Markelle and Gary Harris starting because of seniority and contract size? Sure whatever.
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Re: Position Battles: SG 

Post#44 » by Knightro » Tue Jul 18, 2023 3:39 pm

pepe1991 wrote:It's more complicated than just giving Suggs starting job at expense of Harris.

Harris is ultra anemic player, one of least productive, box score vise, starters in nba.

But thing he can do is shoot, and thing he provides even when he is not touching the ball is spacing.

Replacing 43% three point shooter with 33% shooter is noticable and steep.

And once you clog paint with Banchero, Suggs and Fultz, and your second most reliable shooter is Wendell, you are wracking whole team dynamic as your center, who is most comfortable around rim, now needs to pretend he is Mo Bamba for sake of other players and driving lines. And by design, Banchero will face more double teams than before ,since now both guards aren't really treat to punish you from outside.

Maybe, maybe you can get away with it in regular season, but that starting 5 will get exposed in playoffs in most painful way possible.

Things where Harris excelles, Suggs can't follow.

Catch & shoot. Harris 43% - Suggs 34,8%.
eFG off catch 64% vs 51%
pullup 3s- 45% vs 30%
pullups in general 42% vs 34%

If you think those numbers aren't far off, those co-relations are very similar between Steph Curry and Jordan Poole, so you decide how close they actually are.

Fultz and Suggs simply don't compliment each other at all. Fultz off ball is already problematic, Suggs on ball is problematic, Suggs off ball is learn on fly, both off ball and you might as well not play with "PG" at all and replace them with Harris and Jett or Ingles.

I tracked down game where Fultz and Suggs played together for several min ( vs Heat, at February ) and it's mostly lot of this

Fultz ghosted in corner, Wendell should be screening for Suggs, but Suggs doesn't have it in him to play off ball and run around Wendell off curlt for shoot because that's unnatural for former playmaker

Second half of same game and same problems continue

Suggs is told by Banchero to use drag screen to go on perimeter, but he once again doesn't use screen. In picture it seems like he does ,but again, he doesn't make hard cut, rather leaks out and wants for ball. Because that's what playmakers do. Hold ball. Any normal shooter ( Strus in literally play before this one for example) would do hard cut , go around Mortiz and step into a 3. Instad, Suggs gets flatfooted, leaks near half court ,and doesn't get ball. ( Possession ends in some awkward off ball foul on Mortiz that lead to 2 FTA due bonus)

And last, again, it's simply impossible to understand why is Suggs standing where he is standing. if he moves to his right, he will stand in path of Fultz and block him, if he goes right, he is clashing into Mortiz. And this is situation where Magic have 6'11 Isaac, 6'11 Mortiz and 6'10 Banchero on floor, with tallest Heat player being 6'5. You think anybody on Magic recognized gapping missmatch adventage? :lol:

Only tengable adventage of playing two playmakers is to have two players who process game quicker than anybody else. Suggs simply isn't that guy. He moves like point guard, but is such a disaster when it comes to decision making that he hurts your offense no matter is he on ball or off the ball. And paired with Fultz those problem just get so much worst because Fultz is aposlute no treat for opponents without ball, and on ball, everybody knows he is two tricks pony- penetration or middle range pullup.

Suggs whole problem is that he has one gear- go balls to a wall with brain on autopilot. If he can't slow a f*** down and start thinking what he is doing on offense, it doesn't matter will he play PG, SG, SF, PF or C, he will never be starting level player anywhere.

as for game, if anybody cares, we were up near 20, lost in OT but on surface Fultz and Suggs had nice box numbers, however, when they played together, it was mostly just messy.


There's some nuance needed for these numbers because the Fultz/Harris minutes came almost exclusively against starters whereas the Fultz/Suggs minutes didn't necessarily, but...

Fultz/Harris pairing: -2.9 NET in 948 minutes
Fultz/Suggs pairing: -1.0 NET in 349 minutes

Fultz/Harris/Franz/Paolo/WCJ: +1.4 in 570 minutes
Fultz/Suggs/Franz/Paolo/WCJ: +11.3 in 58 minutes

The 5 man sample size with Suggs in place of Harris isn't really large enough to make any sort of definitive determination on, but it doesn't appear on paper that the Fultz/Suggs pairing was a disaster.

We'll see how it goes over a hopefully much larger sample size this upcoming season, but there are encouraging signs that Fultz/Suggs could work.
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Re: Position Battles: SG 

Post#45 » by The-Stallion70 » Tue Jul 18, 2023 3:46 pm

Def Swami wrote:Suggs was looking pretty good by end of last season. My hope is his shooting improves enough to earn that spot. I felt like they were starting Gary Harris out of necessity given the dearth of shooting in the lineup. But, it's a low bar for one of these guards to earn that position over Harris.

Indeed it is a very low bar which is why I voted for Jett. Markelle is probably our third best player but provides basically no spacing from the pg spot, which is unusual. Jett can really shoot it and I think we need the best possible shooter there.
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Re: Position Battles: SG 

Post#46 » by jezzerinho » Tue Jul 18, 2023 3:58 pm

pepe1991 wrote:It's more complicated than just giving Suggs starting job at expense of Harris.

Harris is ultra anemic player, one of least productive, box score vise, starters in nba.

But thing he can do is shoot, and thing he provides even when he is not touching the ball is spacing.

Replacing 43% three point shooter with 33% shooter is noticable and steep.


And once you clog paint with Banchero, Suggs and Fultz, and your second most reliable shooter is Wendell, you are wracking whole team dynamic as your center, who is most comfortable around rim, now needs to pretend he is Mo Bamba for sake of other players and driving lines. And by design, Banchero will face more double teams than before ,since now both guards aren't really treat to punish you from outside.


Maybe, maybe you can get away with it in regular season, but that starting 5 will get exposed in playoffs in most painful way possible.


Things where Harris excelles, Suggs can't follow.

Catch & shoot. Harris 43% - Suggs 34,8%.
eFG off catch 64% vs 51%
pullup 3s- 45% vs 30%
pullups in general 42% vs 34%

If you think those numbers aren't far off, those co-relations are very similar between Steph Curry and Jordan Poole, so you decide how close they actually are.



Fultz and Suggs simply don't compliment each other at all. Fultz off ball is already problematic, Suggs on ball is problematic, Suggs off ball is learn on fly, both off ball and you might as well not play with "PG" at all and replace them with Harris and Jett or Ingles.

I tracked down game where Fultz and Suggs played together for several min ( vs Heat, at February ) and it's mostly lot of this

Image

Fultz ghosted in corner, Wendell should be screening for Suggs, but Suggs doesn't have it in him to play off ball and run around Wendell off curlt for shoot because that's unnatural for former playmaker


Second half of same game and same problems continue

Image

Suggs is told by Banchero to use drag screen to go on perimeter, but he once again doesn't use screen. In picture it seems like he does ,but again, he doesn't make hard cut, rather leaks out and wants for ball. Because that's what playmakers do. Hold ball. Any normal shooter ( Strus in literally play before this one for example) would do hard cut , go around Mortiz and step into a 3. Instad, Suggs gets flatfooted, leaks near half court ,and doesn't get ball. ( Possession ends in some awkward off ball foul on Mortiz that lead to 2 FTA due bonus)



Image

And last, again, it's simply impossible to understand why is Suggs standing where he is standing. if he moves to his right, he will stand in path of Fultz and block him, if he goes right, he is clashing into Mortiz. And this is situation where Magic have 6'11 Isaac, 6'11 Mortiz and 6'10 Banchero on floor, with tallest Heat player being 6'5. You think anybody on Magic recognized gapping missmatch adventage? :lol:


Only tengable adventage of playing two playmakers is to have two players who process game quicker than anybody else. Suggs simply isn't that guy. He moves like point guard, but is such a disaster when it comes to decision making that he hurts your offense no matter is he on ball or off the ball. And paired with Fultz those problem just get so much worst because Fultz is aposlute no treat for opponents without ball, and on ball, everybody knows he is two tricks pony- penetration or middle range pullup.


Suggs whole problem is that he has one gear- go balls to a wall with brain on autopilot. If he can't slow a f*** down and start thinking what he is doing on offense, it doesn't matter will he play PG, SG, SF, PF or C, he will never be starting level player anywhere.

as for game, if anybody cares, we were up near 20, lost in OT but on surface Fultz and Suggs had nice box numbers, however, when they played together, it was mostly just messy.


All valid, but Suggs for the 2nd half was a much improved shooter.
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Re: Position Battles: SG 

Post#47 » by Knightro » Tue Jul 18, 2023 4:03 pm

The-Stallion70 wrote:Indeed it is a very low bar which is why I voted for Jett. Markelle is probably our third best player but provides basically no spacing from the pg spot, which is unusual. Jett can really shoot it and I think we need the best possible shooter there.


Wouldn't that just be Gary Harris?

The guy literally is coming off a season where he made 43% of his threes. It's pretty unreasonable to expect Howard to be better than that, right?
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Re: Position Battles: SG 

Post#48 » by basketballRob » Tue Jul 18, 2023 4:10 pm

Jett might be a better shooter, but learning how not to take bad shots might take a while.

Gary Harris is unlikely to play over 50 games next season, so Howard will get a shot.

Cole is our most durable guard and only averages 57 games per season.

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Re: Position Battles: SG 

Post#49 » by Audi » Tue Jul 18, 2023 4:16 pm

All I recall of the Fultz/Suggs pairings are moments of absolutely smothering defense.
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Re: Position Battles: SG 

Post#50 » by Fortune Teller » Tue Jul 18, 2023 4:26 pm

Suggs will be hurt half the season.
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Re: Position Battles: SG 

Post#51 » by Catledge » Tue Jul 18, 2023 7:12 pm

Audi wrote:All I recall of the Fultz/Suggs pairings are moments of absolutely smothering defense.


This is OT for the thread, but I feel like a lot of people here are underrating Fultz's defense.

I have no disagreements with people's complaints about his offensive fit, but I thought Fultz was our second-best perimeter defender after Suggs last year.
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Re: Position Battles: SG 

Post#52 » by eyriq » Tue Jul 18, 2023 7:43 pm

Catledge wrote:
Audi wrote:All I recall of the Fultz/Suggs pairings are moments of absolutely smothering defense.


This is OT for the thread, but I feel like a lot of people here are underrating Fultz's defense.

I have no disagreements with people's complaints about his offensive fit, but I thought Fultz was our second-best perimeter defender after Suggs last year.
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Re: Position Battles: SG 

Post#53 » by JoshuaPotter » Tue Jul 18, 2023 7:57 pm

eyriq wrote:
Catledge wrote:
Audi wrote:All I recall of the Fultz/Suggs pairings are moments of absolutely smothering defense.


This is OT for the thread, but I feel like a lot of people here are underrating Fultz's defense.

I have no disagreements with people's complaints about his offensive fit, but I thought Fultz was our second-best perimeter defender after Suggs last year.
I'm with ya on this!


Wow is our perimeter defense that bad?

@Eyriq does this pass the eye test? I remember are starting 5 being abysmal on defensive metrics and our bench squad being above average typically anchored by the wagners + suggs + cole and a remember by committee 5.
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Re: Position Battles: SG 

Post#54 » by basketballRob » Tue Jul 18, 2023 8:05 pm

Our backcourt defense has been really bad for a few years now. Players like Burks regularly go off on us.

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Re: Position Battles: SG 

Post#55 » by VFX » Tue Jul 18, 2023 8:14 pm

JoshuaPotter wrote:
eyriq wrote:
Catledge wrote:
This is OT for the thread, but I feel like a lot of people here are underrating Fultz's defense.

I have no disagreements with people's complaints about his offensive fit, but I thought Fultz was our second-best perimeter defender after Suggs last year.
I'm with ya on this!


Wow is our perimeter defense that bad?

@Eyriq does this pass the eye test? I remember are starting 5 being abysmal on defensive metrics and our bench squad being above average typically anchored by the wagners + suggs + cole and a remember by committee 5.


Orlando's opp 3pt% was 6th best in the league at 35.1% , but they allowed the 5th most. Orlando was ultimately in the middle of the league in DEF RTG.

The defense isn't really the point. I'd sacrifice being 6th in the league in perimeter defense if it meant our lead point guard wasn't "getting comfortable taking outside shots" in year 7.
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Re: Position Battles: SG 

Post#56 » by Audi » Tue Jul 18, 2023 10:27 pm

JoshuaPotter wrote:
eyriq wrote:
Catledge wrote:
This is OT for the thread, but I feel like a lot of people here are underrating Fultz's defense.

I have no disagreements with people's complaints about his offensive fit, but I thought Fultz was our second-best perimeter defender after Suggs last year.
I'm with ya on this!


Wow is our perimeter defense that bad?

@Eyriq does this pass the eye test? I remember are starting 5 being abysmal on defensive metrics and our bench squad being above average typically anchored by the wagners + suggs + cole and a remember by committee 5.


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Re: Position Battles: SG 

Post#57 » by Bensational » Tue Jul 18, 2023 10:57 pm

pepe1991 wrote:And once you clog paint with Banchero, Suggs and Fultz, and your second most reliable shooter is Wendell, you are wracking whole team dynamic as your center, who is most comfortable around rim, now needs to pretend he is Mo Bamba for sake of other players and driving lines. And by design, Banchero will face more double teams than before ,since now both guards aren't really treat to punish you from outside.


I think Suggs is developing into a Josh Hart type of guy, but Suggs has a bit more X factor to him where he can actually take over games at times. He could start alongside the right PG, but his hustle leadership might be most valuable off the bench if he has scope to close out games too.


I tracked down game where Fultz and Suggs played together for several min ( vs Heat, at February ) and it's mostly lot of this

Image

Fultz ghosted in corner, Wendell should be screening for Suggs, but Suggs doesn't have it in him to play off ball and run around Wendell off curlt for shoot because that's unnatural for former playmaker


Second half of same game and same problems continue

Image

Suggs is told by Banchero to use drag screen to go on perimeter, but he once again doesn't use screen. In picture it seems like he does ,but again, he doesn't make hard cut, rather leaks out and wants for ball. Because that's what playmakers do. Hold ball. Any normal shooter ( Strus in literally play before this one for example) would do hard cut , go around Mortiz and step into a 3. Instad, Suggs gets flatfooted, leaks near half court ,and doesn't get ball. ( Possession ends in some awkward off ball foul on Mortiz that lead to 2 FTA due bonus)



Image

And last, again, it's simply impossible to understand why is Suggs standing where he is standing. if he moves to his right, he will stand in path of Fultz and block him, if he goes right, he is clashing into Mortiz. And this is situation where Magic have 6'11 Isaac, 6'11 Mortiz and 6'10 Banchero on floor, with tallest Heat player being 6'5. You think anybody on Magic recognized gapping missmatch adventage? :lol:


The numbers are even uglier than the spacing. The Fultz/Suggs/Isaac/Banchero/WCJ lineup played a total of 12 minutes across games. The lineup had a TS% of 39% and an ortg of 77 :o

But get this - a drtg of 62, and a netrtg of 15 :o The defense was that good if that lineup played for 48mpg it would average 20 point blowout wins even on such terrible efficiency.

I’m not making a case for more of that lineup, but Suggs is, IMO, the kind of player whose defense actually offsets his offensive shortcomings.
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Re: Position Battles: SG 

Post#58 » by basketballRob » Wed Jul 19, 2023 12:56 am

Desmond Bane is an interesting comparison for Jett. Bane was 2.5 years older when drafted, so it could take Jett the whole 4 years to get to Bane's level.

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Re: Position Battles: SG 

Post#59 » by Skin » Wed Jul 19, 2023 1:58 am

basketballRob wrote:Desmond Bane is an interesting comparison for Jett. Bane was 2.5 years older when drafted, so it could take Jett the whole 4 years to get to Bane's level.


Bane was a 2nd round pick and had zero expectations attached to him. He could play the slow game.

Jett doesn't have that luxury. By year 2, we need to know if he's a keeper or if we should salvage value by trading him. This is the point that Suggs is at now. I think that we should trade him now. If I were GM, I would've drafted Suggs for sure. We gave him a good chance. But Weltman has to know by now that he is not a star. We need to trade him or we risk losing out on his trade value.

Weltman showed poor judgement in keeping Bamba too long and got nothing for him. Same with Fournier, AG, and T-Ross. This is probably the fate of Suggs and Harris too. Maybe even Cole.

If Jalen Suggs is a 38% 3pt shooter, scoring machine, and lockdown defender at the end of the year, I'll eat my shorts and be the first to admit wrong. But imo, he's blocking Jett. He doesn't have handle, shooting touch, or natural basketball feel for the game that Jett has. He's just an athlete trying to find it. If the Magic want to progress, they need to put Jett in the starting line up and see if he can deliver. Suggs is a good backup, but some teams still might think he has starting potential. We should tap into that because by the end of the season his value will be realized of that as a bench specialist. I still think Tony Allen is a good comp for him.
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Re: Position Battles: SG 

Post#60 » by basketballRob » Wed Jul 19, 2023 9:59 am

Skin wrote:
basketballRob wrote:Desmond Bane is an interesting comparison for Jett. Bane was 2.5 years older when drafted, so it could take Jett the whole 4 years to get to Bane's level.


Bane was a 2nd round pick and had zero expectations attached to him. He could play the slow game.

Jett doesn't have that luxury. By year 2, we need to know if he's a keeper or if we should salvage value by trading him. This is the point that Suggs is at now. I think that we should trade him now. If I were GM, I would've drafted Suggs for sure. We gave him a good chance. But Weltman has to know by now that he is not a star. We need to trade him or we risk losing out on his trade value.

Weltman showed poor judgement in keeping Bamba too long and got nothing for him. Same with Fournier, AG, and T-Ross. This is probably the fate of Suggs and Harris too. Maybe even Cole.

If Jalen Suggs is a 38% 3pt shooter, scoring machine, and lockdown defender at the end of the year, I'll eat my shorts and be the first to admit wrong. But imo, he's blocking Jett. He doesn't have handle, shooting touch, or natural basketball feel for the game that Jett has. He's just an athlete trying to find it. If the Magic want to progress, they need to put Jett in the starting line up and see if he can deliver. Suggs is a good backup, but some teams still might think he has starting potential. We should tap into that because by the end of the season his value will be realized of that as a bench specialist. I still think Tony Allen is a good comp for him.
Why would we trade Suggs? Why not finish letting him develop and pay him according to what he is at the end of 4 years? Howard will need 3 years to develop, too. As much as our guards get inured, everyone will get a chance.

It's more frustrating when we sabotage a rebuild by letting BIlliups walk or trading Ben Wallace, Oladipo, and Sabonis.

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