2023 Summer League

[fatlever]

adding to jmacs post

here's breakdown of best players drafted in the 27-60 range between 2016-2020 (stopped in 2020 since we need more time on more recent drafts)

i put them in order based on how i'd rank them
breakdown
fr = 7
so = 8
jr = 3
sr = 7
none = 1

draw conclusions if you can, i guess... soph might be the sweet spot

player exp role
pascal siakam - so so allstar
dejounte murray - fr fr allstar
jalen brunson - jr jr allstar
kyle kuzma - jr jr starter
malcom brogdon - sr sr starter
keldon johnson - fr fr starter
robert williams - so so starter
mitchell robinson - none none starter
dillon brooks - jr jr starter
jordan poole - so so starter
derick white - fr fr starter
bruce bown - so so starter
josh hart - sr sr starter
ivica zubac - int int starter
gary trent - fr fr role
nic claxton - so so role
monte morris - sr sr role
cody martin - sr sr role
jevon carter - sr sr role
kevin porter - fr fr role
deantony melton - fr fr role
isaiah hartenstein - int int role
thj - fr fr bench
devonte graham - sr sr bench
mcd - so so bench
thomas bryant - so so bench
daniel gafford - so so bench
georges niangg - sr sr bench

[Bassman]

My points are largely the same that Fats made. The issue is partly how we performed this year, and in all years of summer league. But the primary point is on Hornet’s drafting strategy, and results, of those players that aren’t Melo or Miller. Again, dittos to Fats post on page 58.

[yosemiteben]

Ultimately if your late 1sr / 2nd rounder is both young and rotation worthy it doesn't even matter what position they play. Pick for talent, not experience or archetype IMO.

[fatlever]

"swing for fences" or "upside" is not only equal to drafting 18 year olds. as a crap team we shouldnt look at win now guys and instead focus high upside/potential, as opposed to a team like denver. just pick good players.

[Snidely FC]

The narrative that shot creation yields big upside needs to be overhauled into being well rounded and versatile is important for high upside.

While creation is very important, there is only a finite amount that can fit onto any team. At any given moment, 90% of the players on the floor are not touching the ball, and to truly build an overpowering lineup, you need to load up on players who provide value outside of scoring.

If you really want to break the NBA, you need to load up on elite well rounded players. Isolation scorers provide diminishing returns and cap team level upside with too many of them.

https://deanondraft.com/tag/franz-wagner/

I particularly agree with Dean On Draft's argument as it applies to a small market team like the Hornets, that tends not to attract impact free agents and has a dearth of trade assets.

DOD's argument was on stark display this SL with an overabundance of individuals taking turns "capping team upside".

Though, his argument also underscores Brandon Miller and Amari Bailey, with their playmaking and defensive effort, as smart picks

Value added beyond scoring often highlights bball IQ, and ought to be paramount for the Hornets when drafting and team building.

[fatlever]

It was so obvious once Smith, bouk and Bryce weren't playing. That last game was night and day compared to the first 6.

Those first 6 were **** awful. All the result of mitchs love affair with this wretched player type. (You have Terry locked up, you don't need 3 more Terrys, of which the chances of any be better than Terry is slim)

One you can maybe tolerate in small doses, three is simply unwatchable.

I really really hope that Smith looks better once Clifford gets his hands on him and coaches some of that out of his game. I appreciate his hustle and ability to make difficult shots, but he's not a player I want on the floor based on what I saw in summer league. Ball stopper to max.

Sent from my SM-G973U using RealGM mobile app

[JustBuzzin]

It was so obvious once Smith, bouk and Bryce weren't playing. That last game was night and day compared to the first 6.

Those first 6 were **** awful. All the result of mitchs love affair with this wretched player type. (You have Terry locked up, you don't need 3 more Terrys, of which the chances of any be better than Terry is slim)

One you can maybe tolerate in small doses, three is simply unwatchable.

I really really hope that Smith looks better once Clifford gets his hands on him and coaches some of that out of his game. I appreciate his hustle and ability to make difficult shots, but he's not a player I want on the floor based on what I saw in summer league. Ball stopper to max.

Sent from my SM-G973U using RealGM mobile app

People were praising Smith for that 1 game he had in which we still lossed.

Im looking at the bigger picture. Kid has talent, but he seriously needs to pass the ball much more if he wants to see the court. He played the entire summer league like he was the #2 pick in the draft. Miller looked like the secondary option for most of the games they played together.

[LofJ]

It was a night and day difference in the regular season as well when Rozier and Oubre were both out. The team played significantly better without them.

But man based on last season I didn't think that McGowens was going to be that type of player. He defended and mostly took smart shots, he looked like he had decent basketball IQ.

Hopefully summer league was just him getting big headed because the player we saw last season has a chance of getting a 2nd contract, the guy we saw in summer league has no chance. You aren't a big fish in a little pond anymore dude, time to get your head straight and play the game the right way.

[JMAC3]

It was so obvious once Smith, bouk and Bryce weren't playing. That last game was night and day compared to the first 6.

Those first 6 were **** awful. All the result of mitchs love affair with this wretched player type. (You have Terry locked up, you don't need 3 more Terrys, of which the chances of any be better than Terry is slim)

One you can maybe tolerate in small doses, three is simply unwatchable.

I really really hope that Smith looks better once Clifford gets his hands on him and coaches some of that out of his game. I appreciate his hustle and ability to make difficult shots, but he's not a player I want on the floor based on what I saw in summer league. Ball stopper to max.

Sent from my SM-G973U using RealGM mobile app

Good thing Bouknight, Smith and McGowens will never ever ever be on the court together this year lol. "We shouldn't have drafted Smith because we have similar guys that play like him in SL". That is like saying we shouldn't have taken Brandon Miller because we have Xavier Sneed and Svi who are wings that can shoot 3s.

Imagine being the coach and saying "Hey Nick, I know you are going to be on the team for 4 years, but can you make sure to really pass the ball to Tre Scott, Bouknight, and Leaky Black? We really want to see them get more shots vs you working on your game".

Nick Smith shot 13.8 times per game over his 6 games.

This is just Vegas numbers, but he was far from the guy that shot the most per game. https://www.nba.com/2023-summer-league-vegas-player-stats?dir=D&sort=FGA 27 guys shot more per game than NSJ. I guess he should have read the room though and shot less per game because Bouk and McGowens were already shooting too much. Clearly he should of sacrificed and not shot himself. Awful player and low IQ. Can we trade him for a 23 yr old that would have worked better on our SL team already?

[JMAC3]

Players under contract for the Hornets next year (not this upcoming year)
LaMelo, Rozier, Miller, Martin, Richards, Nick Smith Jr.

Players with team options, non-guaranteed deals.
Mark, Thor, Kai, Bouk, McGowens, Bailey

Saying NSj was a bad pick because we have non-rotation guys that aren't guaranteed to be on the team for more than 1 season is an awful awful awful take.

[Hornet Mania]

But man based on last season I didn't think that McGowens was going to be that type of player. He defended and mostly took smart shots, he looked like he had decent basketball IQ.

Hopefully summer league was just him getting big headed because the player we saw last season has a chance of getting a 2nd contract, the guy we saw in summer league has no chance. You aren't a big fish in a little pond anymore dude, time to get your head straight and play the game the right way.

Agree 100%.

I was excited to see McGowens this SL because I thought he'd be a good influence on the new guys and help demonstrate by example how to play team-first basketball. He ended up being the biggest disappointment imo.

He was much more unselfish in meaningful games, so maybe that will reassert itself when it matters, but the recent showing was not a great sign. If he thought that was his moment to play hero ball to prove he could be the new Oubre or something he badly miscalculated.

[fatlever]

It was so obvious once Smith, bouk and Bryce weren't playing. That last game was night and day compared to the first 6.

Those first 6 were **** awful. All the result of mitchs love affair with this wretched player type. (You have Terry locked up, you don't need 3 more Terrys, of which the chances of any be better than Terry is slim)

One you can maybe tolerate in small doses, three is simply unwatchable.

I really really hope that Smith looks better once Clifford gets his hands on him and coaches some of that out of his game. I appreciate his hustle and ability to make difficult shots, but he's not a player I want on the floor based on what I saw in summer league. Ball stopper to max.

Sent from my SM-G973U using RealGM mobile app

Good thing Bouknight, Smith and McGowens will never ever ever be on the court together this year lol. "We shouldn't have drafted Smith because we have similar guys that play like him in SL". That is like saying we shouldn't have taken Brandon Miller because we have Xavier Sneed and Svi who are wings that can shoot 3s.

Imagine being the coach and saying "Hey Nick, I know you are going to be on the team for 4 years, but can you make sure to really pass the ball to Tre Scott, Bouknight, and Leaky Black? We really want to see them get more shots vs you working on your game".

Nick Smith shot 13.8 times per game over his 6 games.

This is just Vegas numbers, but he was far from the guy that shot the most per game. https://www.nba.com/2023-summer-league-vegas-player-stats?dir=D&sort=FGA 27 guys shot more per game than NSJ. I guess he should have read the room though and shot less per game because Bouk and McGowens were already shooting too much. Clearly he should of sacrificed and not shot himself. Awful player and low IQ. Can we trade him for a 23 yr old that would have worked better on our SL team already?

we are never going to agree on this subject, just like last year with Oubre. I have ZERO appetite for selfish players.
you seem to equate selfish/ball stopping with FGA. we all watched the games, Nick was incredible selfish and out of 6 gms it paid off for one quarter. I imagine that his selfishness as the pg also set the tone across the floor as others followed suit, "if i pass, i'll never get it back" mentality. to his credit, he's not a pg and it was dumb of coaches to put him that position. its fine for stretches of a game just to see how he looks, or to work on his gm, but not 6 straight gms of him cratering the offense.

i'm not giving up on nick. he has legit upside talent (unlike bouk who just never looked the part), and he cares and hustles. but, i dont want him in the rotation if he doesnt change that behavior.

[LofJ]

But man based on last season I didn't think that McGowens was going to be that type of player. He defended and mostly took smart shots, he looked like he had decent basketball IQ.

Hopefully summer league was just him getting big headed because the player we saw last season has a chance of getting a 2nd contract, the guy we saw in summer league has no chance. You aren't a big fish in a little pond anymore dude, time to get your head straight and play the game the right way.

Agree 100%.

I was excited to see McGowens this SL because I thought he'd be a good influence on the new guys and help demonstrate by example how to play team-first basketball. He ended up being the biggest disappointment imo.

He was much more unselfish in meaningful games, so maybe that will reassert itself when it matters, but the recent showing was not a great sign. If he thought that was his moment to play hero ball to prove he could be the new Oubre or something he badly miscalculated.

Yep, you'd think after watching the Finals guys like McGowens would be copying players like Caleb Martin and Bruce Brown not guys like Oubre.

Caleb was even on our damn team. I don't understand why it's so hard for some players to get that they aren't the star. This isn't college or AAU basketball anymore. You need to defend and play team basketball to get on the court.

[JMAC3]

we are never going to agree on this subject, just like last year with Oubre. I have ZERO appetite for selfish players.
you seem to equate selfish/ball stopping with FGA. we all watched the games, Nick was incredible selfish and out of 6 gms it paid off for one quarter. I imagine that his selfishness as the pg also set the tone across the floor as others followed suit, "if i pass, i'll never get it back" mentality. to his credit, he's not a pg and it was dumb of coaches to put him that position. its fine for stretches of a game just to see how he looks, or to work on his gm, but not 6 straight gms of him cratering the offense.

i'm not giving up on nick. he has legit upside talent (unlike bouk who just never looked the part), and he cares and hustles. but, i dont want him in the rotation if he doesnt change that behavior.

What was Smith Jr doing that was selfish if it wasn't shooting the ball?

Jalen Hood Schfino shot 14.5 times, Blake Wesley shot 14.5 times, Jaden Hardy shot 18 times, Ivey shot 17 times, Bufkin shot 15 times, Keyonte shot 15 times. Did you watch them play? Were they also selfish players?

or maybe... just maybe... you are lumping Nick Smith, McGowens and Bouk together in your head and viewing them all as one problem? Because it kind of seems like that is the case to me.

The fact that you are trying to make some grand conclusion on the type of player NSj will be based on 6 games in the SL itself is wild.

[wilson115]

The narrative that shot creation yields big upside needs to be overhauled into being well rounded and versatile is important for high upside.

While creation is very important, there is only a finite amount that can fit onto any team. At any given moment, 90% of the players on the floor are not touching the ball, and to truly build an overpowering lineup, you need to load up on players who provide value outside of scoring.

If you really want to break the NBA, you need to load up on elite well rounded players. Isolation scorers provide diminishing returns and cap team level upside with too many of them.

https://deanondraft.com/tag/franz-wagner/

I particularly agree with Dean On Draft's argument as it applies to a small market team like the Hornets, that tends not to attract impact free agents and has a dearth of trade assets.

DOD's argument was on stark display this SL with an overabundance of individuals taking turns "capping team upside".

Though, his argument also underscores Brandon Miller and Amari Bailey, with their playmaking and defensive effort, as smart picks

Value added beyond scoring often highlights bball IQ, and ought to be paramount for the Hornets when drafting and team building.

Ironically Mitch said this to justify a big wing at #2. So he gets the point. Why I think the drafting isn't all on Mitch. There's factions, there's Mitch picks and then there's picks from the people who took Monk and Bouknight because ... who knows, maybe trying to make the (former) majority owner feel good about players in his mold remaining relevant these days.

"In the game today wings they're just so valuable. A wing typically could be a guy that plays a small forward, the 3 position, but, over the years, it's kind of transformed into a player that, if able, can guard and play several positions. A big wing who's athletic, who has multi-level skills, and can move his feet, can defend, has great quickness, can be really valuable. A guy that can bring the ball up the court, a guy that can defend the 2, that can play the 3 and outquicken other players, and, when you switch, which is what everybody does in our game ... in our game today, almost everything's a switch, it makes it that much more valuable to have a wing with that kind of diversity ..."

[Diop]

Hopefully summer league is an outlier where they’re just trying stuff, like when Kai kept launching 3s that year