Position Battles: SG

[pepe1991]

I don't get fascination with Suggs tho.

Okey, he is above average defender off the bench in regular season. wtf is that worth for in sense of building team?

It's like proclaiming Kings integral part of future is Devion Mitchell. Same strenghts, same problems. Same draft.

[Audi]

His low assist numbers in anything involved in running a set half court offense?

Where are you finding assist numbers filtered down to these specifics?

[VFX]

His low assist numbers in anything involved in running a set half court offense?

Where are you finding assist numbers filtered down to these specifics?

Watching games with my eyes.

[VFX]

"Getting rid of Suggs" sounds like I want nothing back in return. I'm saying, let's take advantage of his value while he has some.

If someone wants to say Suggs has little to no value in trade talk then that's only justifying the disappointment in him further.

Fultz has one flaw, but the rest of his game screams Star.

What are you wanting in return for a top defensive guard on a rookie contract? Keep in mind his contract is 2/$7m…

Which flaw about Fultz are you referring to?

His inability to get to the line?
His admitted inability to stretch the floor?
His low assist numbers in anything involved in running a set half court offense?
His availability due to being injured every season?
His looming large contract despite having limited sample size?

Which of those flaws are you referring to just so I know we are on the same page that Fultz is a “star” otherwise?

Inability to get to the line is a fake news. He doesn't get to the line because he makes his shots. #1 Guard in the league in FG%. He attacks the rim hard and goes against anyone, including Lebron. Let's not pretend he's shy of contact and is a softy. It's more of a referee issue than an individual flaw. Once his star power rises, he'll get more calls.

Low assist numbers is fake news. This is also a result of Franz, Paolo, and others taking on more of a playmaking role in Mosely's scheme. Fultz is the orchestrator of the best passes since Penny. I love his vision and so do his teammates who support his ways.

Being injured and being scared of his contract is fake news. When was the last bad contract that you saw Weltman give out? If he's hurt for a long time again, then being injury prone will affect his next contract. He'll get what he deserves, maybe less due to the presence of Black, Anthony, and Suggs on the roster and not having bargaining power.

Everything factually negative that’s said about my favorite player is fake news.

That’s what this post said in 100 words.

[Skin]

I don't get fascination with Suggs tho.

Okey, he is above average defender off the bench in regular season. wtf is that worth for in sense of building team?

It's like proclaiming Kings integral part of future is Devion Mitchell. Same strenghts, same problems. Same draft.

Bingo! Jingo! Jango! We need a shooting guard who can shoot the lights out.

[Skin]

What are you wanting in return for a top defensive guard on a rookie contract? Keep in mind his contract is 2/$7m…

Which flaw about Fultz are you referring to?

His inability to get to the line?
His admitted inability to stretch the floor?
His low assist numbers in anything involved in running a set half court offense?
His availability due to being injured every season?
His looming large contract despite having limited sample size?

Which of those flaws are you referring to just so I know we are on the same page that Fultz is a “star” otherwise?

Inability to get to the line is a fake news. He doesn't get to the line because he makes his shots. #1 Guard in the league in FG%. He attacks the rim hard and goes against anyone, including Lebron. Let's not pretend he's shy of contact and is a softy. It's more of a referee issue than an individual flaw. Once his star power rises, he'll get more calls.

Low assist numbers is fake news. This is also a result of Franz, Paolo, and others taking on more of a playmaking role in Mosely's scheme. Fultz is the orchestrator of the best passes since Penny. I love his vision and so do his teammates who support his ways.

Being injured and being scared of his contract is fake news. When was the last bad contract that you saw Weltman give out? If he's hurt for a long time again, then being injury prone will affect his next contract. He'll get what he deserves, maybe less due to the presence of Black, Anthony, and Suggs on the roster and not having bargaining power.

Everything factually negative that’s said about my favorite player is fake news.

That’s what this post said in 100 words.

My favorite player is Jonathan Isaac. I am Grooot!!!

[tiderulz]

Without improving anymore, Suggs is currently as good as Dillon Brooks and Smart. They both make $20m per year.

A healthy Suggs shooting 38% from 3 is probably an all-star or as good as BIlliups and Jrue, which is around a max player.

Sent from my SM-G781U using RealGM mobile app

if Suggs cant improve his 3 pt shot in a big way, there are worse players to be than Smart. but Smart has a 6'9 wingspan enabling him to guard 1-4 (though not full time vs 4's). Jalen is around 6'5 wing span. And Brooks is bigger and a better shooter.

But Suggs is more athletic than Smart and IMO projects to be better offensively. Smart never had the burst or explosiveness to attack the rim like Suggs. Now Suggs still needs to get smarter about attacking, and he did this season as opposed to last season's mess, but he has the tools to be a very good penetrator.

Smart is pretty athletic and i think much stronger than Suggs.

[Residual-Heat]

if Suggs cant improve his 3 pt shot in a big way, there are worse players to be than Smart. but Smart has a 6'9 wingspan enabling him to guard 1-4 (though not full time vs 4's). Jalen is around 6'5 wing span. And Brooks is bigger and a better shooter.

But Suggs is more athletic than Smart and IMO projects to be better offensively. Smart never had the burst or explosiveness to attack the rim like Suggs. Now Suggs still needs to get smarter about attacking, and he did this season as opposed to last season's mess, but he has the tools to be a very good penetrator.

Smart is pretty athletic and i think much stronger than Suggs.

Smart is a good athlete, but Suggs has better burst and explosiveness, and body control going to the rim that Marcus Smart never had. As far as strength, yeah Smart is a bit stronger. They're similar players but not a carbon copy and while Smart maybe a little bigger and stronger, he is not as athletic.

[Residual-Heat]

I don't get fascination with Suggs tho.

Okey, he is above average defender off the bench in regular season. wtf is that worth for in sense of building team?

It's like proclaiming Kings integral part of future is Devion Mitchell. Same strenghts, same problems. Same draft.

I mean Mitchell was good enough to get 20mpg in the play offs even though the Kings' best player plays the same position. Other than that, Suggs is also like 3 years younger than Mitchell.

If the Magic trade Suggs they will regret it, and wish they had a guy like him in the play offs. Its not that anyone is obsessed with Suggs, Id trade him for the right return, but there's no need to trade him for a crappy first.

[Audi]

His low assist numbers in anything involved in running a set half court offense?

Where are you finding assist numbers filtered down to these specifics?

Watching games with my eyes.

k

[basketballRob]

Fultz would get traded before Suggs because you can get more back. You have to match salaries, and Suggs is still on a rookie scale contract.

Fultz for Norm Powell works.

Sent from my SM-G781U using RealGM mobile app

[Bensational]

I don't get fascination with Suggs tho.

Okey, he is above average defender off the bench in regular season. wtf is that worth for in sense of building team?

It's like proclaiming Kings integral part of future is Devion Mitchell. Same strenghts, same problems. Same draft.

He’s much more than that. He changes a defensive attitude and culture just by being on the court and leading by example. It’s become a really under appreciated skill, but it’s still a game changing impact. And he has the capacity to get hot and carry a team to a win. We’ve just seen Miami use those sorts of games to carry them to the finals, and none of them offered the defense Suggs does. I bet they wished they had Suggs on Murray in the finals.

He’s not the kind of star you’d hope for with a #5 pick, but a player can impact a team beyond being a 20ppg bomber, and Suggs does that. He’s not untouchable, but it’s not like there’s anyone available worth trading him for at the moment anyway.

[SOUL]

People act like every position needs to be a three leveled scorer that has an all-star upside and great shooting.

Suggs is insanely valuable if his trajectory of being a slightly better shooter each year improves, simple as that. Every playoff team needs a guy that does the little things.

It takes re-adjusting of maybe what people thought he would be when drafted, but he's far from a finished product.

[orlando_joe]

I don't get fascination with Suggs tho.

Okey, he is above average defender off the bench in regular season. wtf is that worth for in sense of building team?

It's like proclaiming Kings integral part of future is Devion Mitchell. Same strenghts, same problems. Same draft.

I mean Mitchell was good enough to get 20mpg in the play offs even though the Kings' best player plays the same position. Other than that, Suggs is also like 3 years younger than Mitchell.

If the Magic trade Suggs they will regret it, and wish they had a guy like him in the play offs. Its not that anyone is obsessed with Suggs, Id trade him for the right return, but there's no need to trade him for a crappy first.

suggs also has 4 or 5 inches on him

[fendilim]

Bane was a 2nd round pick and had zero expectations attached to him. He could play the slow game.

Jett doesn't have that luxury. By year 2, we need to know if he's a keeper or if we should salvage value by trading him. This is the point that Suggs is at now. I think that we should trade him now. If I were GM, I would've drafted Suggs for sure. We gave him a good chance. But Weltman has to know by now that he is not a star. We need to trade him or we risk losing out on his trade value.

This is the problem with Suggs whole scenario though.

I think a lot of people projected him to be a allstar/superstar because of the position he was picked. But in reality, he is more of a culture setter. He is more of Jrue Holiday than Gary Payton.

Of course he was drafted to be a star. He's just now a "culture setter" because he hasn't lived up to those all-star expectations of a #5 pick. You can even find undrafted culture setters.

Jrue Holiday was always a better shooter and better ball handler/PG than Suggs. He was never just a "culture setter". Smart is a better comparison for Suggs.

Suggs was projected more of a culture setter than a star even before his rookie season started.

In fact, even most of the comparison he got prior to the draft were Chauncey or Jrue. Not even superstar talents. Those players he were compared to succeeded playing supporting roles. But they were stars of mediocrity when put in the spotlight of a leading role.

[pepe1991]

Few things, to not replay to everybody in separate posts:

For start, you say you didn't expect superstar, than compare him to Billups and Jrue Holiday who are both multiple allstars. Equivivalent to this would be saying i don't expect Amen Thompson to be superstar but to be John Wall. Difference between multi level allstar and superstar is just in fanbase perception, they are payed the same.

Jrue for last year was 25th highest payed player in basketball. Making more money than MItchell, Jokic, Tatum etc.


Second. Devion Mitchell comparison. Devion's rookie year stat vise, mirrors Suggs second year.
Devion Mitchell by defensive standards is near identical player to Suggs. Even (in)famous RAPTOR data ranks their defense fairly similar ( 2,8 for Suggs, 2,5 for Mitchell). That wasn't my point. Point is- just because somebody is drafted in lottery 2 years ago and is now backup, that doesn't automaticlly makes him future starter, star nor "core" player.




Third. People now want him to play SG mostly because of 3 reasons:
- he looks horrid at PG, position he was drafted to play
- Magic drafted fans shiny new toy at PG so rooting for him at SG clears competition for Black
- portion of fans are Fultz fans so rooting for Suggs to play SG clears competition



But the thing is, he isn't shooting guard. He is just very limited point guard. And when he starts for Magic, Magic have 20% win rate.
Yes , most of his starts happend at him at PG ( witch pretty much explains why he is limited point guard) , and most of his starts happened during tanking year ( witch also explains why he was excellent tank commander as rookie ).
But non of that makes him shooting guard.

He doesn't move like shooting guard, he doesn't provide any specing, for crying out loud guy's shot 32,7% for a season. And before anybody jumps out to tell me how he shot 39% for 3 for a month- your sample size is based on 36 attemps ( 14-36) so in other words, he made 2 threes more than his season average. And followed that month shooting 31% for 3 next month. Before that 39% month he had 23% for 3 month. He isn't reliable shooter by any streach of imagination.

And for alleged positive impact and "things that go beyond stats" ( you know , beyond god-like 10-3-3 on 52,8% TS and negative RPM) he also happends to have negative net rating.

Only metric that views him as elite is raptor data. ESPN's RPM ranks him as 45rd "best" shooting gaurd.


Imo Jalen Suggs is more valuable as trade asset as former 5th overall pick and player who arived in nba with massive hype, than he is as Magic rather limited shooting guard. Best he can be, at shooting guard, is delux Alex Caruso.
That's not bad player, but also not what i invested 5th pick into, i would rather flip asset on time.

If he has another mediocre 10 ppg season on some sub 33% for 3, and not playing PG, good luck trying to recover his value.


We have Banchero, Wendell, Fultz , Franz as lock for start. Harris proved he is valuable ( even tho, i want him to get more shots & looks and stop being super conservative). There simply isn't anything going for Suggs that would make me think he surpassed Harris as player.

[basketballRob]

Suggs was +3.2 on defense and -0.2 on offense. Mitchell was +2.5 on defense and -2.2 on offensive Raptor.

Mitchell is also 3 years older and had a -6.7 net rating on a better team. Suggs was at -1.3.

Suggs is a lot better player than Mitchell.

Suggs was better than Chauncey at 21.

At Suggs' floor, he's Marcus Smart. Smart was drafted #6 and was a culture setter for 9 years in Boston. The Grizzlies gave up two first round picks, and Tyus Jones, who has been one of the best backups in the league for Smart.

Sent from my SM-G781U using RealGM mobile app

[orlando_joe]

Few things, to not replay to everybody in separate posts:

For start, you say you didn't expect superstar, than compare him to Billups and Jrue Holiday who are both multiple allstars. Equivivalent to this would be saying i don't expect Amen Thompson to be superstar but to be John Wall. Difference between multi level allstar and superstar is just in fanbase perception, they are payed the same.

Jrue for last year was 25th highest payed player in basketball. Making more money than MItchell, Jokic, Tatum etc.


Second. Devion Mitchell comparison. Devion's rookie year stat vise, mirrors Suggs second year.
Devion Mitchell by defensive standards is near identical player to Suggs. Even (in)famous RAPTOR data ranks their defense fairly similar ( 2,8 for Suggs, 2,5 for Mitchell). That wasn't my point. Point is- just because somebody is drafted in lottery 2 years ago and is now backup, that doesn't automaticlly makes him future starter, star nor "core" player.




Third. People now want him to play SG mostly because of 3 reasons:
- he looks horrid at PG, position he was drafted to play
- Magic drafted fans shiny new toy at PG so rooting for him at SG clears competition for Black
- portion of fans are Fultz fans so rooting for Suggs to play SG clears competition



But the thing is, he isn't shooting guard. He is just very limited point guard. And when he starts for Magic, Magic have 20% win rate.
Yes , most of his starts happend at him at PG ( witch pretty much explains why he is limited point guard) , and most of his starts happened during tanking year ( witch also explains why he was excellent tank commander as rookie ).
But non of that makes him shooting guard.

He doesn't move like shooting guard, he doesn't provide any specing, for crying out loud guy's shot 32,7% for a season. And before anybody jumps out to tell me how he shot 39% for 3 for a month- your sample size is based on 36 attemps ( 14-36) so in other words, he made 2 threes more than his season average. And followed that month shooting 31% for 3 next month. Before that 39% month he had 23% for 3 month. He isn't reliable shooter by any streach of imagination.

And for alleged positive impact and "things that go beyond stats" ( you know , beyond god-like 10-3-3 on 52,8% TS and negative RPM) he also happends to have negative net rating.

Only metric that views him as elite is raptor data. ESPN's RPM ranks him as 45rd "best" shooting gaurd.


Imo Jalen Suggs is more valuable as trade asset as former 5th overall pick and player who arived in nba with massive hype, than he is as Magic rather limited shooting guard. Best he can be, at shooting guard, is delux Alex Caruso.
That's not bad player, but also not what i invested 5th pick into, i would rather flip asset on time.

If he has another mediocre 10 ppg season on some sub 33% for 3, and not playing PG, good luck trying to recover his value.


We have Banchero, Wendell, Fultz , Franz as lock for start. Harris proved he is valuable ( even tho, i want him to get more shots & looks and stop being super conservative). There simply isn't anything going for Suggs that would make me think he surpassed Harris as player.

with all this what do you see him returning pick wise? i am sure its not much..he has more value to magic then he can return
and why magic wont just dump him..his value is all time low now..thats why seeing if he improves has more value then return at this point

[basketballRob]

Few things, to not replay to everybody in separate posts:

For start, you say you didn't expect superstar, than compare him to Billups and Jrue Holiday who are both multiple allstars. Equivivalent to this would be saying i don't expect Amen Thompson to be superstar but to be John Wall. Difference between multi level allstar and superstar is just in fanbase perception, they are payed the same.

Jrue for last year was 25th highest payed player in basketball. Making more money than MItchell, Jokic, Tatum etc.


Second. Devion Mitchell comparison. Devion's rookie year stat vise, mirrors Suggs second year.
Devion Mitchell by defensive standards is near identical player to Suggs. Even (in)famous RAPTOR data ranks their defense fairly similar ( 2,8 for Suggs, 2,5 for Mitchell). That wasn't my point. Point is- just because somebody is drafted in lottery 2 years ago and is now backup, that doesn't automaticlly makes him future starter, star nor "core" player.




Third. People now want him to play SG mostly because of 3 reasons:
- he looks horrid at PG, position he was drafted to play
- Magic drafted fans shiny new toy at PG so rooting for him at SG clears competition for Black
- portion of fans are Fultz fans so rooting for Suggs to play SG clears competition



But the thing is, he isn't shooting guard. He is just very limited point guard. And when he starts for Magic, Magic have 20% win rate.
Yes , most of his starts happend at him at PG ( witch pretty much explains why he is limited point guard) , and most of his starts happened during tanking year ( witch also explains why he was excellent tank commander as rookie ).
But non of that makes him shooting guard.

He doesn't move like shooting guard, he doesn't provide any specing, for crying out loud guy's shot 32,7% for a season. And before anybody jumps out to tell me how he shot 39% for 3 for a month- your sample size is based on 36 attemps ( 14-36) so in other words, he made 2 threes more than his season average. And followed that month shooting 31% for 3 next month. Before that 39% month he had 23% for 3 month. He isn't reliable shooter by any streach of imagination.

And for alleged positive impact and "things that go beyond stats" ( you know , beyond god-like 10-3-3 on 52,8% TS and negative RPM) he also happends to have negative net rating.

Only metric that views him as elite is raptor data. ESPN's RPM ranks him as 45rd "best" shooting gaurd.


Imo Jalen Suggs is more valuable as trade asset as former 5th overall pick and player who arived in nba with massive hype, than he is as Magic rather limited shooting guard. Best he can be, at shooting guard, is delux Alex Caruso.
That's not bad player, but also not what i invested 5th pick into, i would rather flip asset on time.

If he has another mediocre 10 ppg season on some sub 33% for 3, and not playing PG, good luck trying to recover his value.


We have Banchero, Wendell, Fultz , Franz as lock for start. Harris proved he is valuable ( even tho, i want him to get more shots & looks and stop being super conservative). There simply isn't anything going for Suggs that would make me think he surpassed Harris as player.

with all this what do you see him returning pick wise? i am sure its not much..he has more value to magic then he can return
and why magic wont just dump him..his value is all time low now..thats why seeing if he improves has more value then return at this point

The Magic aren't trading Suggs. That's ridiculous.

Sent from my SM-G781U using RealGM mobile app

[pepe1991]

Few things, to not replay to everybody in separate posts:

For start, you say you didn't expect superstar, than compare him to Billups and Jrue Holiday who are both multiple allstars. Equivivalent to this would be saying i don't expect Amen Thompson to be superstar but to be John Wall. Difference between multi level allstar and superstar is just in fanbase perception, they are payed the same.

Jrue for last year was 25th highest payed player in basketball. Making more money than MItchell, Jokic, Tatum etc.


Second. Devion Mitchell comparison. Devion's rookie year stat vise, mirrors Suggs second year.
Devion Mitchell by defensive standards is near identical player to Suggs. Even (in)famous RAPTOR data ranks their defense fairly similar ( 2,8 for Suggs, 2,5 for Mitchell). That wasn't my point. Point is- just because somebody is drafted in lottery 2 years ago and is now backup, that doesn't automaticlly makes him future starter, star nor "core" player.




Third. People now want him to play SG mostly because of 3 reasons:
- he looks horrid at PG, position he was drafted to play
- Magic drafted fans shiny new toy at PG so rooting for him at SG clears competition for Black
- portion of fans are Fultz fans so rooting for Suggs to play SG clears competition



But the thing is, he isn't shooting guard. He is just very limited point guard. And when he starts for Magic, Magic have 20% win rate.
Yes , most of his starts happend at him at PG ( witch pretty much explains why he is limited point guard) , and most of his starts happened during tanking year ( witch also explains why he was excellent tank commander as rookie ).
But non of that makes him shooting guard.

He doesn't move like shooting guard, he doesn't provide any specing, for crying out loud guy's shot 32,7% for a season. And before anybody jumps out to tell me how he shot 39% for 3 for a month- your sample size is based on 36 attemps ( 14-36) so in other words, he made 2 threes more than his season average. And followed that month shooting 31% for 3 next month. Before that 39% month he had 23% for 3 month. He isn't reliable shooter by any streach of imagination.

And for alleged positive impact and "things that go beyond stats" ( you know , beyond god-like 10-3-3 on 52,8% TS and negative RPM) he also happends to have negative net rating.

Only metric that views him as elite is raptor data. ESPN's RPM ranks him as 45rd "best" shooting gaurd.


Imo Jalen Suggs is more valuable as trade asset as former 5th overall pick and player who arived in nba with massive hype, than he is as Magic rather limited shooting guard. Best he can be, at shooting guard, is delux Alex Caruso.
That's not bad player, but also not what i invested 5th pick into, i would rather flip asset on time.

If he has another mediocre 10 ppg season on some sub 33% for 3, and not playing PG, good luck trying to recover his value.


We have Banchero, Wendell, Fultz , Franz as lock for start. Harris proved he is valuable ( even tho, i want him to get more shots & looks and stop being super conservative). There simply isn't anything going for Suggs that would make me think he surpassed Harris as player.

with all this what do you see him returning pick wise? i am sure its not much..he has more value to magic then he can return
and why magic wont just dump him..his value is all time low now..thats why seeing if he improves has more value then return at this point

The Magic aren't trading Suggs. That's ridiculous.

Sent from my SM-G781U using RealGM mobile app

Magic never trade anybody until it's proven that player no longer belongs in any team's active rotation or player(s) tolds media he is done with a team.

Suggs value won't raise with him playing wrong position and benig bench player either. Just like Wiseman, Monk, Kuminga , Toppin and others didn't raise their value being bench players either.

And Magic will continue to be without starting quality SG.
And we will continue to suffer in W-L column because we are treating SG spot as dumping- bodies- shallow grave.

I'm not suggesting dumping him asap, but question needs to be asked : what's Suggs future with Magic?

Does he view himself as backup SG for rest of his Magic days ? Why would he want to play SG in first place?

And it's not like Magic have any reasons to keep him. They have Fultz, Cole and Black all wanting to play PG.


So simple solution comes to a mind in situation where nobody is happy. Divroce.

As for trade ideas, i don't know, he could maybe become starting PG on Wizards. Maybe Spurs. Call those teams.