What's the strongest data-driven argument for Michael Jordan as GOAT?

[Hitachi77]

I mean, you would have to go through each individual case, like the above. The Pacers with Paul George did quite well against the LBJ Heat, and it’s not a knock on George that they ended up losing to a much better team.

Thats all I'm highlighting, is the lack of consistency when someone brings up which teams were played.

MJ's teams were favored because that was the best team remaining come Finals time. LBJ has been an underdog, in part, because he played against weaker competition to make his Finals in the East, but clearly wasn't playing on the best team. If you're going to give him credit for the Finals streak, bringing up who he lost to in the Finals is weak imo. Its quite possible those teams wouldn't have been that far to begin with had the comp been comparable to what we've ween in the West since 2000.

It's just disingenuous to acknowledge who someone has played in the Finals (or who won Finals MVP in the case of Kobe), but not the entire body of work during that playoff season.

Yeah, just some quick info for people:

In his 53 career playoffs series, LeBron only faced a 5+ SRS team 14 times (26.4% of the time). And his teams only won 5 out of those 14 series’ against 5+ SRS teams (a 35.7% win rate).

In contrast, in his 37 career playoff series, Jordan faced a 5+ SRS team 21 times (56.8% of the time). And his teams won 14 out of those 21 series’ against 5+ SRS teams (66.7% win rate).

Jordan faced really good teams a lot more than LeBron, and he beat them a lot more consistently than LeBron.

Come on guys, a lot of things can be true at once, and stats can be cherry picked any way to support your argument.

1. Using finals record to say Jordan > Lebron is silly, because, among other things, it ignore competition and also implies that Jordan’s legacy would be worse had he made it to the finals and lost in ‘95.

2. Similarly, using finals appearances to say Lebron > Jordan is also silly.

3. Jordan has faced tougher competition in the east.

4. Lebron has faced tougher competition in the finals.

I never argued that Lebron is better than Jordan because of his finals appearances, I merely said that using Jordan’s finals record is ridiculous. Lebron’s finals streak is impressive, and so is Jordan’s finals record, and there are too many factors to say which is more impressive.

[WarriorGM]

Thats all I'm highlighting, is the lack of consistency when someone brings up which teams were played.

MJ's teams were favored because that was the best team remaining come Finals time. LBJ has been an underdog, in part, because he played against weaker competition to make his Finals in the East, but clearly wasn't playing on the best team. If you're going to give him credit for the Finals streak, bringing up who he lost to in the Finals is weak imo. Its quite possible those teams wouldn't have been that far to begin with had the comp been comparable to what we've ween in the West since 2000.

It's just disingenuous to acknowledge who someone has played in the Finals (or who won Finals MVP in the case of Kobe), but not the entire body of work during that playoff season.

Yeah, just some quick info for people:

In his 53 career playoffs series, LeBron only faced a 5+ SRS team 14 times (26.4% of the time). And his teams only won 5 out of those 14 series’ against 5+ SRS teams (a 35.7% win rate).

In contrast, in his 37 career playoff series, Jordan faced a 5+ SRS team 21 times (56.8% of the time). And his teams won 14 out of those 21 series’ against 5+ SRS teams (66.7% win rate).

Jordan faced really good teams a lot more than LeBron, and he beat them a lot more consistently than LeBron.

Come on guys, a lot of things can be true at once, and stats can be cherry picked any way to support your argument.

1. Using finals record to say Jordan > Lebron is silly, because, among other things, it ignore competition and also implies that Jordan’s legacy would be worse had he made it to the finals and lost in ‘95.

2. Similarly, using finals appearances to say Lebron > Jordan is also silly.

3. Jordan has faced tougher competition in the east.

4. Lebron has faced tougher competition in the finals.

I never argued that Lebron is better than Jordan because of his finals appearances, I merely said that using Jordan’s finals record is ridiculous. Lebron’s finals streak is impressive, and so is Jordan’s finals record, and there are too many factors to say which is more impressive.

The last line is a cop-out. There are ways to distinguish the impressiveness of particular runs and overall.

[Hitachi77]

Yeah, just some quick info for people:

In his 53 career playoffs series, LeBron only faced a 5+ SRS team 14 times (26.4% of the time). And his teams only won 5 out of those 14 series’ against 5+ SRS teams (a 35.7% win rate).

In contrast, in his 37 career playoff series, Jordan faced a 5+ SRS team 21 times (56.8% of the time). And his teams won 14 out of those 21 series’ against 5+ SRS teams (66.7% win rate).

Jordan faced really good teams a lot more than LeBron, and he beat them a lot more consistently than LeBron.

Come on guys, a lot of things can be true at once, and stats can be cherry picked any way to support your argument.

1. Using finals record to say Jordan > Lebron is silly, because, among other things, it ignore competition and also implies that Jordan’s legacy would be worse had he made it to the finals and lost in ‘95.

2. Similarly, using finals appearances to say Lebron > Jordan is also silly.

3. Jordan has faced tougher competition in the east.

4. Lebron has faced tougher competition in the finals.

I never argued that Lebron is better than Jordan because of his finals appearances, I merely said that using Jordan’s finals record is ridiculous. Lebron’s finals streak is impressive, and so is Jordan’s finals record, and there are too many factors to say which is more impressive.

The last line is a cop-out. There are ways to distinguish the impressiveness of particular runs and overall.

Go ahead, which one is more impressive and why? If you have a bias, chances are you will pick stats that support your bias, when there are likely just as many that support the other side. Lebron and Jordan are close enough that this really is highly subjective. It’s not like comparing Lebron to Eric Snow.

[Ito]

The only 6 finals appearances is what makes him not the goat

[WarriorGM]

Come on guys, a lot of things can be true at once, and stats can be cherry picked any way to support your argument.

1. Using finals record to say Jordan > Lebron is silly, because, among other things, it ignore competition and also implies that Jordan’s legacy would be worse had he made it to the finals and lost in ‘95.

2. Similarly, using finals appearances to say Lebron > Jordan is also silly.

3. Jordan has faced tougher competition in the east.

4. Lebron has faced tougher competition in the finals.

I never argued that Lebron is better than Jordan because of his finals appearances, I merely said that using Jordan’s finals record is ridiculous. Lebron’s finals streak is impressive, and so is Jordan’s finals record, and there are too many factors to say which is more impressive.

The last line is a cop-out. There are ways to distinguish the impressiveness of particular runs and overall.

Go ahead, which one is more impressive and why? If you have a bias, chances are you will pick stats that support your bias, when there are likely just as many that support the other side. Lebron and Jordan are close enough that this really is highly subjective. It’s not like comparing Lebron to Eric Snow.

You say LeBron's finals streak is impressive and it is to an extent. But who did he face to get there? An Eastern Conference that was already weak but then hollowed out even further when two of its best players teamed up with LeBron? Steph Curry in one playoffs run he is criticized for faced more First Team All-NBA players than LeBron did in the Eastern Conference in ten years.

[watch1958]

Data-driven? I dunno, maybe the sheer number of MJ GOAT threads? Someone should count the number of threads titled “If ___ is so important in the GOAT debate, then how come ____?”

[tamaraw08]

Thats all I'm highlighting, is the lack of consistency when someone brings up which teams were played.

MJ's teams were favored because that was the best team remaining come Finals time. LBJ has been an underdog, in part, because he played against weaker competition to make his Finals in the East, but clearly wasn't playing on the best team. If you're going to give him credit for the Finals streak, bringing up who he lost to in the Finals is weak imo. Its quite possible those teams wouldn't have been that far to begin with had the comp been comparable to what we've ween in the West since 2000.

It's just disingenuous to acknowledge who someone has played in the Finals (or who won Finals MVP in the case of Kobe), but not the entire body of work during that playoff season.

Yeah, just some quick info for people:

In his 53 career playoffs series, LeBron only faced a 5+ SRS team 14 times (26.4% of the time). And his teams only won 5 out of those 14 series’ against 5+ SRS teams (a 35.7% win rate).

In contrast, in his 37 career playoff series, Jordan faced a 5+ SRS team 21 times (56.8% of the time). And his teams won 14 out of those 21 series’ against 5+ SRS teams (66.7% win rate).

Jordan faced really good teams a lot more than LeBron, and he beat them a lot more consistently than LeBron.

Come on guys, a lot of things can be true at once, and stats can be cherry picked any way to support your argument.

1. Using finals record to say Jordan > Lebron is silly, because, among other things, it ignore competition and also implies that Jordan’s legacy would be worse had he made it to the finals and lost in ‘95.
All compelling points but may I ask why KAJ is now disqualified from this discussion?
Bulls won 55 games without MJ and also didn't go anywhere without Phil and Pippen.
Lebron always needed allstars to win it all.
KAJ won with other coaches and even in Milwaukee, beating the Lakers in the CF with Wilt, Goodrich and Hairston as a 23 year old.
2. Similarly, using finals appearances to say Lebron > Jordan is also silly.

3. Jordan has faced tougher competition in the east.

4. Lebron has faced tougher competition in the finals.

I never argued that Lebron is better than Jordan because of his finals appearances, I merely said that using Jordan’s finals record is ridiculous. Lebron’s finals streak is impressive, and so is Jordan’s finals record, and there are too many factors to say which is more impressive.

[tamaraw08]

Thats all I'm highlighting, is the lack of consistency when someone brings up which teams were played.

MJ's teams were favored because that was the best team remaining come Finals time. LBJ has been an underdog, in part, because he played against weaker competition to make his Finals in the East, but clearly wasn't playing on the best team. If you're going to give him credit for the Finals streak, bringing up who he lost to in the Finals is weak imo. Its quite possible those teams wouldn't have been that far to begin with had the comp been comparable to what we've ween in the West since 2000.

It's just disingenuous to acknowledge who someone has played in the Finals (or who won Finals MVP in the case of Kobe), but not the entire body of work during that playoff season.

Yeah, just some quick info for people:

In his 53 career playoffs series, LeBron only faced a 5+ SRS team 14 times (26.4% of the time). And his teams only won 5 out of those 14 series’ against 5+ SRS teams (a 35.7% win rate).

In contrast, in his 37 career playoff series, Jordan faced a 5+ SRS team 21 times (56.8% of the time). And his teams won 14 out of those 21 series’ against 5+ SRS teams (66.7% win rate).

Jordan faced really good teams a lot more than LeBron, and he beat them a lot more consistently than LeBron.

Come on guys, a lot of things can be true at once, and stats can be cherry picked any way to support your argument.

1. Using finals record to say Jordan > Lebron is silly, because, among other things, it ignore competition and also implies that Jordan’s legacy would be worse had he made it to the finals and lost in ‘95.

KAJ won with other coaches and even in Milwaukee, beating the Lakers in the CF with Wilt, Goodrich and Hairston as a 23 year old.
2. Similarly, using finals appearances to say Lebron > Jordan is also silly.

3. Jordan has faced tougher competition in the east.

4. Lebron has faced tougher competition in the finals.

I never argued that Lebron is better than Jordan because of his finals appearances, I merely said that using Jordan’s finals record is ridiculous. Lebron’s finals streak is impressive, and so is Jordan’s finals record, and there are too many factors to say which is more impressive.

All compelling points but may I ask why KAJ is now disqualified from this discussion?
Bulls won 55 games without MJ and also didn't go anywhere without Phil and Pippen.
Lebron always needed allstars to win it all.

[tamaraw08]

Thats all I'm highlighting, is the lack of consistency when someone brings up which teams were played.

MJ's teams were favored because that was the best team remaining come Finals time. LBJ has been an underdog, in part, because he played against weaker competition to make his Finals in the East, but clearly wasn't playing on the best team. If you're going to give him credit for the Finals streak, bringing up who he lost to in the Finals is weak imo. Its quite possible those teams wouldn't have been that far to begin with had the comp been comparable to what we've ween in the West since 2000.

It's just disingenuous to acknowledge who someone has played in the Finals (or who won Finals MVP in the case of Kobe), but not the entire body of work during that playoff season.

Yeah, just some quick info for people:

In his 53 career playoffs series, LeBron only faced a 5+ SRS team 14 times (26.4% of the time). And his teams only won 5 out of those 14 series’ against 5+ SRS teams (a 35.7% win rate).

In contrast, in his 37 career playoff series, Jordan faced a 5+ SRS team 21 times (56.8% of the time). And his teams won 14 out of those 21 series’ against 5+ SRS teams (66.7% win rate).

Jordan faced really good teams a lot more than LeBron, and he beat them a lot more consistently than LeBron.

Come on guys, a lot of things can be true at once, and stats can be cherry picked any way to support your argument.

1. Using finals record to say Jordan > Lebron is silly, because, among other things, it ignore competition and also implies that Jordan’s legacy would be worse had he made it to the finals and lost in ‘95.

KAJ won with other coaches and even in Milwaukee, beating the Lakers in the CF with Wilt, Goodrich and Hairston as a 23 year old.
2. Similarly, using finals appearances to say Lebron > Jordan is also silly.

3. Jordan has faced tougher competition in the east.

4. Lebron has faced tougher competition in the finals.

I never argued that Lebron is better than Jordan because of his finals appearances, I merely said that using Jordan’s finals record is ridiculous. Lebron’s finals streak is impressive, and so is Jordan’s finals record, and there are too many factors to say which is more impressive.

All compelling points but may I ask why KAJ is now disqualified from this discussion?
Bulls won 55 games without MJ and also didn't go anywhere without Phil and Pippen.
Lebron always needed allstars to win it all.
KAJ won with other coaches and even in Milwaukee, beating the Lakers in the CF with Wilt, Goodrich and Hairston as a 23 year old.

[Hitachi77]

The last line is a cop-out. There are ways to distinguish the impressiveness of particular runs and overall.

Go ahead, which one is more impressive and why? If you have a bias, chances are you will pick stats that support your bias, when there are likely just as many that support the other side. Lebron and Jordan are close enough that this really is highly subjective. It’s not like comparing Lebron to Eric Snow.

You say LeBron's finals streak is impressive and it is to an extent. But who did he face to get there? An Eastern Conference that was already weak but then hollowed out even further when two of its best players teamed up with LeBron? Steph Curry in one playoffs run he is criticized for faced more First Team All-NBA players than LeBron did in the Eastern Conference in ten years.

Well, if we list off all the best Eastern teams he faced, each year, the worst is probably the PG led Pacers? So yea, he faced some good-very good teams, not a tough road but not exactly the road the Jason Kidd Nets had. He does deserve a lot of credit in 2007 and 2018 in particular for completely carrying the team on his back, and beating very good teams to get there, as an underdog.

He deserves plenty or criticism, sure. In 2011 in particular but maybe even a year like 2013 when they were saved by Ray Allen. And I’ll be the first to say 2016 was overrated for them.

As for Curry, I’m a big fan. Does he deserve some criticism in 2016 and 2019? Probably, but a lot thought he looked injured. And everyone can be criticized, with no exceptions.

[michaelm]

Yeah, just some quick info for people:

In his 53 career playoffs series, LeBron only faced a 5+ SRS team 14 times (26.4% of the time). And his teams only won 5 out of those 14 series’ against 5+ SRS teams (a 35.7% win rate).

In contrast, in his 37 career playoff series, Jordan faced a 5+ SRS team 21 times (56.8% of the time). And his teams won 14 out of those 21 series’ against 5+ SRS teams (66.7% win rate).

Jordan faced really good teams a lot more than LeBron, and he beat them a lot more consistently than LeBron.

Come on guys, a lot of things can be true at once, and stats can be cherry picked any way to support your argument.

1. Using finals record to say Jordan > Lebron is silly, because, among other things, it ignore competition and also implies that Jordan’s legacy would be worse had he made it to the finals and lost in ‘95.

KAJ won with other coaches and even in Milwaukee, beating the Lakers in the CF with Wilt, Goodrich and Hairston as a 23 year old.
2. Similarly, using finals appearances to say Lebron > Jordan is also silly.

3. Jordan has faced tougher competition in the east.

4. Lebron has faced tougher competition in the finals.

I never argued that Lebron is better than Jordan because of his finals appearances, I merely said that using Jordan’s finals record is ridiculous. Lebron’s finals streak is impressive, and so is Jordan’s finals record, and there are too many factors to say which is more impressive.

All compelling points but may I ask why KAJ is now disqualified from this discussion?
Bulls won 55 games without MJ and also didn't go anywhere without Phil and Pippen.
Lebron always needed allstars to win it all.
KAJ won with other coaches and even in Milwaukee, beating the Lakers in the CF with Wilt, Goodrich and Hairston as a 23 year old.

The argument which I don’t accept is that LeBron is better because he had weaker teams. Basketball is indeed a team game, and probably the greatest team of all time was built around Jordan, which involved him accepting coaching and a game plan which to an extent took the ball out of his hands. Imo LeBron’s heliocentric playing style puts a limit on how good his teams can be. He is almost certainly the GOAT floor raiser, but him being the GOAT ceiling raiser is much more debatable, again imo. LeBron has had a large input into the roster construction of his teams since 2010, and into who coached those teams, so at least to a degree bears responsibility if his teams and/or the coaching of those teams were weak.

[WarriorGM]

Go ahead, which one is more impressive and why? If you have a bias, chances are you will pick stats that support your bias, when there are likely just as many that support the other side. Lebron and Jordan are close enough that this really is highly subjective. It’s not like comparing Lebron to Eric Snow.

You say LeBron's finals streak is impressive and it is to an extent. But who did he face to get there? An Eastern Conference that was already weak but then hollowed out even further when two of its best players teamed up with LeBron? Steph Curry in one playoffs run he is criticized for faced more First Team All-NBA players than LeBron did in the Eastern Conference in ten years.

Well, if we list off all the best Eastern teams he faced, each year, the worst is probably the PG led Pacers? So yea, he faced some good-very good teams, not a tough road but not exactly the road the Jason Kidd Nets had. He does deserve a lot of credit in 2007 and 2018 in particular for completely carrying the team on his back, and beating very good teams to get there, as an underdog.

He deserves plenty or criticism, sure. In 2011 in particular but maybe even a year like 2013 when they were saved by Ray Allen. And I’ll be the first to say 2016 was overrated for them.

As for Curry, I’m a big fan. Does he deserve some criticism in 2016 and 2019? Probably, but a lot thought he looked injured. And everyone can be criticized, with no exceptions.

The PG-led Pacers? I'm presuming you're trying to say they were the worst of the best teams LeBron faced in his run of consecutive finals appearances. LeBron certainly faced worse teams in the playoffs including some sub-40 win teams. But to put some perspective on the difference between the Eastern and Western Conference and Paul George led teams, the year Paul George had his strongest MVP candidate year he was eliminated in the first round Western Conference playoffs series 1-4 by Damian Lillard, PG famously uttering the words "that was a bad shot".

[NZB2323]

Go ahead, which one is more impressive and why? If you have a bias, chances are you will pick stats that support your bias, when there are likely just as many that support the other side. Lebron and Jordan are close enough that this really is highly subjective. It’s not like comparing Lebron to Eric Snow.

You say LeBron's finals streak is impressive and it is to an extent. But who did he face to get there? An Eastern Conference that was already weak but then hollowed out even further when two of its best players teamed up with LeBron? Steph Curry in one playoffs run he is criticized for faced more First Team All-NBA players than LeBron did in the Eastern Conference in ten years.

Well, if we list off all the best Eastern teams he faced, each year, the worst is probably the PG led Pacers? So yea, he faced some good-very good teams, not a tough road but not exactly the road the Jason Kidd Nets had. He does deserve a lot of credit in 2007 and 2018 in particular for completely carrying the team on his back, and beating very good teams to get there, as an underdog.

He deserves plenty or criticism, sure. In 2011 in particular but maybe even a year like 2013 when they were saved by Ray Allen. And I’ll be the first to say 2016 was overrated for them.

As for Curry, I’m a big fan. Does he deserve some criticism in 2016 and 2019? Probably, but a lot thought he looked injured. And everyone can be criticized, with no exceptions.

Are the PG Pacers really worse than the Derozan Raptors, Horford Hawks, or Injured Isiah Celtics?

You could also argue the 2007 Pistons- both the 2007 Pistons and 2014 Pacers had a Net Rtg of +4.7, 6th in the NBA. That Pistons team didn’t have Ben Wallace anymore and was starting a washed up Chris Webber.

But you’re right, they’re all better than the 2002 Celtics, but I believe the 2003 Pistons could beat the 2007 Pistons, 2017 Celtics, 2014 Pacers, Derozan Raptors, or Horford Hawks.

[The4thHorseman]

Yeah, just some quick info for people:

In his 53 career playoffs series, LeBron only faced a 5+ SRS team 14 times (26.4% of the time). And his teams only won 5 out of those 14 series’ against 5+ SRS teams (a 35.7% win rate).

In contrast, in his 37 career playoff series, Jordan faced a 5+ SRS team 21 times (56.8% of the time). And his teams won 14 out of those 21 series’ against 5+ SRS teams (66.7% win rate).

Jordan faced really good teams a lot more than LeBron, and he beat them a lot more consistently than LeBron.

Come on guys, a lot of things can be true at once, and stats can be cherry picked any way to support your argument.

1. Using finals record to say Jordan > Lebron is silly, because, among other things, it ignore competition and also implies that Jordan’s legacy would be worse had he made it to the finals and lost in ‘95.

KAJ won with other coaches and even in Milwaukee, beating the Lakers in the CF with Wilt, Goodrich and Hairston as a 23 year old.
2. Similarly, using finals appearances to say Lebron > Jordan is also silly.

3. Jordan has faced tougher competition in the east.

4. Lebron has faced tougher competition in the finals.

I never argued that Lebron is better than Jordan because of his finals appearances, I merely said that using Jordan’s finals record is ridiculous. Lebron’s finals streak is impressive, and so is Jordan’s finals record, and there are too many factors to say which is more impressive.

All compelling points but may I ask why KAJ is now disqualified from this discussion?
Bulls won 55 games without MJ and also didn't go anywhere without Phil and Pippen.Lebron always needed allstars to win it all.

Except that James was the only player to rep Cleveland in the 2016 All-Star game.

[tamaraw08]

Come on guys, a lot of things can be true at once, and stats can be cherry picked any way to support your argument.

1. Using finals record to say Jordan > Lebron is silly, because, among other things, it ignore competition and also implies that Jordan’s legacy would be worse had he made it to the finals and lost in ‘95.

KAJ won with other coaches and even in Milwaukee, beating the Lakers in the CF with Wilt, Goodrich and Hairston as a 23 year old.
2. Similarly, using finals appearances to say Lebron > Jordan is also silly.

3. Jordan has faced tougher competition in the east.

4. Lebron has faced tougher competition in the finals.

I never argued that Lebron is better than Jordan because of his finals appearances, I merely said that using Jordan’s finals record is ridiculous. Lebron’s finals streak is impressive, and so is Jordan’s finals record, and there are too many factors to say which is more impressive.

All compelling points but may I ask why KAJ is now disqualified from this discussion?
Bulls won 55 games without MJ and also didn't go anywhere without Phil and Pippen.Lebron always needed allstars to win it all.

Except that James was the only player to rep Cleveland in the 2016 All-Star game.

Was that when they beat GSW with Kyrie averaged 27 pts 40% from 3, and like 33 pts/ game the last 3 games?
The finals when Steph struggled while TT and Love stepped up with their defense?

[MavsDirk41]

All compelling points but may I ask why KAJ is now disqualified from this discussion?
Bulls won 55 games without MJ and also didn't go anywhere without Phil and Pippen.Lebron always needed allstars to win it all.

Except that James was the only player to rep Cleveland in the 2016 All-Star game.

Was that when they beat GSW with Kyrie averaged 27 pts 40% from 3, and like 33 pts/ game the last 3 games?
The finals when Steph struggled while TT and Love stepped up with their defense?

According to lebron james fans he won that championship by himself