Position Battles: SG

[thelead]

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Yeah, I think they're letting us know who's winning this battle. They also posted this today:

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[VFX]

Spoiler:

Magic never trade anybody until it's proven that player no longer belongs in any team's active rotation or player(s) tolds media he is done with a team.

Suggs value won't raise with him playing wrong position and benig bench player either. Just like Wiseman, Monk, Kuminga , Toppin and others didn't raise their value being bench players either.

And Magic will continue to be without starting quality SG.
And we will continue to suffer in W-L column because we are treating SG spot as dumping- bodies- shallow grave.

I'm not suggesting dumping him asap, but question needs to be asked : what's Suggs future with Magic?

Does he view himself as backup SG for rest of his Magic days ? Why would he want to play SG in first place?

And it's not like Magic have any reasons to keep him. They have Fultz, Cole and Black all wanting to play PG.

You do know players can hold value in other roles outside of being a traditional starting point guard or shooting guard right?

A few things here…

Suggs is going into year 3 with an upward trajectory on his shooting. We haven’t seen the finished project. This isn’t his year 7 of being in the league.

It depends on what we are talking about with player skill sets in relation to cost/benefit analysis. Do you want to pay Jordan Poole $28m/4 because he can shoot and play non existent defense, or even Trae Young $40m/4 for a heightened version of the same thing? Maybe. Maybe not. It depends on what the rest of your team looks like. Is Franz and Paolo good enough defensively that Orlando doesn’t benefit from a player like Suggs?

Jalen could progress to the starting SG, or maybe he ends up backing up Jett. The bottom line is that Orlando lacks toughness on defense. The Magic lacked variability on that side of the court for the last decade. Playoff teams need players like that.

I don’t disagree with your assessment that the FO holds onto players until they are expired milk as assets. It’s just not the case with Suggs 3 years into his career on a rookie deal. We can talk after he signs his extension about weighing the options should he not progress.

I don’t get why people are quick to pull the trigger on guys with deals like these. If we are talking about potentially $20m+ 1-2 years from now I’ll start listening to serious arguments. There isn’t one to be made right now otherwise. Gary Harris is invisible on the court 90% of the time and Jett Howard hasn’t logged a single minute after being a reach pick. The alternatives are trade ideas people are coming up with in 2k.

You do know players can hold value in other roles outside of being a traditional starting point guard or shooting guard right?

When you are 6'3 -200 pounds person with 6'5 wingspan in NBA, only position you can play is PG and SG.Roles such player can provide are: ballhandler, off ball shooter. Pretty much that's it.

Suggs is going into year 3 with an upward trajectory on his shooting. We haven’t seen the finished project. This isn’t his year 7 of being in the league.

Based on what?
College 33,7% for 3 - 75% FTs
Rookie 21% for 3 - 77% FTs
Sophmore 32,7% for 3 and 72% FTs

College and Sophmore season pretty much mirror themselfs, and one outliner happends to be one of worst shooting performances even for a rookie, in very long time.

It depends on what the rest of your team looks like. Is Franz and Paolo good enough defensively that Orlando doesn’t benefit from a player like Suggs?

And turnover prone, bad decision maker, below average shooter, unnatural SG sounds like pefect fit just because he tries hard on defense during period of season nobody esle does?

Jalen could progress to the starting SG, or maybe he ends up backing up Jett.

When did we established Jett as SG? Based on fact that he couldn't guard SGs in college or during SL garbage league ?
I'm willing to bet my house on notion that Jett can't move his feet fast enough to guard guards in nba.

It’s just not the case with Suggs 3 years into his career on a rookie deal. We can talk after he signs his extension about weighing the options should he not progress.

This is garbage argument and you know it. You know player loses value as soon as new contract is signed, your upper examples of Poole and Trae Young prove that. Suggs is way more valuable with just 2 injury prone seasons as trade asset than with 4 ( potentially injury prone) mediocre seasons and making twice or three times more money. All that while being 2 yeras older.

I don’t get why people are quick to pull the trigger on guys with deals like these. If we are talking about potentially $20m+ 1-2 years from now I’ll start listening to serious arguments. There isn’t one to be made right now otherwise. Gary Harris is invisible on the court 90% of the time and Jett Howard hasn’t logged a single minute after being a reach pick. The alternatives are trade ideas people are coming up with in 2k

You realize that difference between Suggs last year, and Gary Harris year prior is almost non existent in terms of production?

Difference between them comes from fact that even in year where Harris shot better and scored more points, he still had lower usage rate.
And in 2022-23, Harris usage rate dropped to 12% where Suggs still has near 21% usage rate. And despite all that he only averages 1,6 ppg more DESPITE SHOOTING TWO SHOTS A GAME MORE?

Jalen Suggs in starting 5 will just be 5th option and average even less shots, if he shares floor with established group of Fultz, Wendell, Franz and Bacnhero. We can assume Banchero will actually average even more shots, so will Franz. So even if you decide to cream Suggs into that group, he will hardly ever touch ball, because there simply won't be enough balls for everybody to shoot.


Only arguments for Suggs as starting SG are non-logical and subjective. I like him because he is 5th overall pick and i prefer 5th overall pick to start over Gary Harris because Raptors fans troll me on reddit. That sort of BS. There is zero reasons why would Magic terrible spaced 5 replace elite shooter with below average who also happends to be turnover machine and pretty much basketball dummy in terms of decision making.

Are you implying that college and the nba are the same in terms of ease of scoring with that comparison?
Are you implying that a guy at the end of year 2 is the absolute best he is going to be going into year 3?

How is that a "garbage argument"? What is the cost of Suggs contract-wise AFTER next season and what is the value return for him now? Do you have answers for either of those things? We know what this FO handed Markelle after half a season of data. We have a little less than 2 on Suggs and I expect nothing close to that number based on his role despite providing more on the court.

This team has plenty of options on the court that can score the basketball. Franz, Paolo, Cole, Carter (in situations), and now Jett. Who do they have defensively? I can think of the corpse of Isaac, Gary on ball, and now Black if he can find minutes. Thats it.

You have to do better than "there are potentially made up trades in my head" for reasons why Orlando should move one of the better guard defenders in the league on a rookie deal because he isn't Donovan Mitchell offensively going into year 3 of his nba career.

Look I get it pepe. You hold grudges on players that have flaws in their games. There are players that we can agree on fitting this criteria. However, I'm also look at contracts and value outside of what is happening short term. You can wait 1.5 seasons before claiming a guy on a rookie deal needs to be moved for players yet to be named.

[basketballRob]

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Yeah, I think they're letting us know who's winning this battle. They also posted this today:

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Some players rise to the occasion, and some shrivel up to the size of a BB. Pepe knows who I'm talking about.

Sent from my SM-G781U using RealGM mobile app

[Last Guardian]

The starting lineup when we beat the champs (without Murray) included Suggs.

He’s an Uber aggressive player on both ends. Yes, his efficiency isn’t there but that’s where the development happens hopefully. He has to be on the court, his impact is undeniable and he is pretty clutch too.

[pepe1991]

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Yeah, I think they're letting us know who's winning this battle. They also posted this today:

Watch on YouTube

Some players rise to the occasion, and some shrivel up to the size of a BB. Pepe knows who I'm talking about.

Sent from my SM-G781U using RealGM mobile app

Magic lost 80% games where Suggs started.
#winner

[pepe1991]

Spoiler:

You do know players can hold value in other roles outside of being a traditional starting point guard or shooting guard right?

A few things here…

Suggs is going into year 3 with an upward trajectory on his shooting. We haven’t seen the finished project. This isn’t his year 7 of being in the league.

It depends on what we are talking about with player skill sets in relation to cost/benefit analysis. Do you want to pay Jordan Poole $28m/4 because he can shoot and play non existent defense, or even Trae Young $40m/4 for a heightened version of the same thing? Maybe. Maybe not. It depends on what the rest of your team looks like. Is Franz and Paolo good enough defensively that Orlando doesn’t benefit from a player like Suggs?

Jalen could progress to the starting SG, or maybe he ends up backing up Jett. The bottom line is that Orlando lacks toughness on defense. The Magic lacked variability on that side of the court for the last decade. Playoff teams need players like that.

I don’t disagree with your assessment that the FO holds onto players until they are expired milk as assets. It’s just not the case with Suggs 3 years into his career on a rookie deal. We can talk after he signs his extension about weighing the options should he not progress.

I don’t get why people are quick to pull the trigger on guys with deals like these. If we are talking about potentially $20m+ 1-2 years from now I’ll start listening to serious arguments. There isn’t one to be made right now otherwise. Gary Harris is invisible on the court 90% of the time and Jett Howard hasn’t logged a single minute after being a reach pick. The alternatives are trade ideas people are coming up with in 2k.

You do know players can hold value in other roles outside of being a traditional starting point guard or shooting guard right?

When you are 6'3 -200 pounds person with 6'5 wingspan in NBA, only position you can play is PG and SG.Roles such player can provide are: ballhandler, off ball shooter. Pretty much that's it.

Suggs is going into year 3 with an upward trajectory on his shooting. We haven’t seen the finished project. This isn’t his year 7 of being in the league.

Based on what?
College 33,7% for 3 - 75% FTs
Rookie 21% for 3 - 77% FTs
Sophmore 32,7% for 3 and 72% FTs

College and Sophmore season pretty much mirror themselfs, and one outliner happends to be one of worst shooting performances even for a rookie, in very long time.

It depends on what the rest of your team looks like. Is Franz and Paolo good enough defensively that Orlando doesn’t benefit from a player like Suggs?

And turnover prone, bad decision maker, below average shooter, unnatural SG sounds like pefect fit just because he tries hard on defense during period of season nobody esle does?

Jalen could progress to the starting SG, or maybe he ends up backing up Jett.

When did we established Jett as SG? Based on fact that he couldn't guard SGs in college or during SL garbage league ?
I'm willing to bet my house on notion that Jett can't move his feet fast enough to guard guards in nba.

It’s just not the case with Suggs 3 years into his career on a rookie deal. We can talk after he signs his extension about weighing the options should he not progress.

This is garbage argument and you know it. You know player loses value as soon as new contract is signed, your upper examples of Poole and Trae Young prove that. Suggs is way more valuable with just 2 injury prone seasons as trade asset than with 4 ( potentially injury prone) mediocre seasons and making twice or three times more money. All that while being 2 yeras older.

I don’t get why people are quick to pull the trigger on guys with deals like these. If we are talking about potentially $20m+ 1-2 years from now I’ll start listening to serious arguments. There isn’t one to be made right now otherwise. Gary Harris is invisible on the court 90% of the time and Jett Howard hasn’t logged a single minute after being a reach pick. The alternatives are trade ideas people are coming up with in 2k

You realize that difference between Suggs last year, and Gary Harris year prior is almost non existent in terms of production?

Difference between them comes from fact that even in year where Harris shot better and scored more points, he still had lower usage rate.
And in 2022-23, Harris usage rate dropped to 12% where Suggs still has near 21% usage rate. And despite all that he only averages 1,6 ppg more DESPITE SHOOTING TWO SHOTS A GAME MORE?

Jalen Suggs in starting 5 will just be 5th option and average even less shots, if he shares floor with established group of Fultz, Wendell, Franz and Bacnhero. We can assume Banchero will actually average even more shots, so will Franz. So even if you decide to cream Suggs into that group, he will hardly ever touch ball, because there simply won't be enough balls for everybody to shoot.


Only arguments for Suggs as starting SG are non-logical and subjective. I like him because he is 5th overall pick and i prefer 5th overall pick to start over Gary Harris because Raptors fans troll me on reddit. That sort of BS. There is zero reasons why would Magic terrible spaced 5 replace elite shooter with below average who also happends to be turnover machine and pretty much basketball dummy in terms of decision making.

Are you implying that college and the nba are the same in terms of ease of scoring with that comparison?
Are you implying that a guy at the end of year 2 is the absolute best he is going to be going into year 3?

How is that a "garbage argument"? What is the cost of Suggs contract-wise AFTER next season and what is the value return for him now? Do you have answers for either of those things? We know what this FO handed Markelle after half a season of data. We have a little less than 2 on Suggs and I expect nothing close to that number based on his role despite providing more on the court.

This team has plenty of options on the court that can score the basketball. Franz, Paolo, Cole, Carter (in situations), and now Jett. Who do they have defensively? I can think of the corpse of Isaac, Gary on ball, and now Black if he can find minutes. Thats it.

You have to do better than "there are potentially made up trades in my head" for reasons why Orlando should move one of the better guard defenders in the league on a rookie deal because he isn't Donovan Mitchell offensively going into year 3 of his nba career.

Look I get it pepe. You hold grudges on players that have flaws in their games. There are players that we can agree on fitting this criteria. However, I'm also look at contracts and value outside of what is happening short term. You can wait 1.5 seasons before claiming a guy on a rookie deal needs to be moved for players yet to be named.

I'm implying that you have 2 nba seasons plus one year at college where he was never even average shooter.

We have a little less than 2 on Suggs and I expect nothing close to that number based on his role despite providing more on the court.

Can you elaborate or explain, do you think current version of Suggs brings more than current version of Fultz or version of Fultz that got exstension? Because current version of Suggs is much worst basketball player than current version of Fultz, regardless of how "broken" Fultz's jumpshot is.

You have to do better than "there are potentially made up trades in my head" for reasons why Orlando should move one of the better guard defenders in the league on a rookie deal because he isn't Donovan Mitchell offensively going into year 3 of his nba career.

Magic have 4 Point Guards.
Fultz is their starter, it's pointless to wate words on that. Guy will get exstension after this year. That thing is a wrap.
Black won't be able to shoot any time soon, so by default,he will also only be able to play PG.
Cole can play some of SG, but also prefers ball in his hands. Him and Suggs worked well , but he is hitting free agency in 10 months.

At some point you are facing harsh reality where Fultz will be resigned, Cole is free agent, and Black is rookie. Keeping all of them simply makes no sense. And in trades, expendable option who you can still get nice return , due draft stock, some injuries and not complete exposure in my eyes is- Suggs.

We don't need to agree on that, ofc. But i think his combination of rackless plays, complete lack of awarness on offense, terrible decision making and erratic human-cannon ball playstyle will just result on injuries going forward and isn't winning basketball.
Again, for all the praise people love to give him, he still had negative net rating. And as starter we lost 14 out of 19 games when he played.

Matter of fact, he has -6,2 net rating in games when he starts. His net rating as bench player, mainly paired with Cole, is +2,2.


SO why execlly people want to pencil him in starting lineup other than feel better about piss poor return of 5th overall investment? There simply isn't any logical explanation for it.

[uraverage]

Spoiler:

When you are 6'3 -200 pounds person with 6'5 wingspan in NBA, only position you can play is PG and SG.Roles such player can provide are: ballhandler, off ball shooter. Pretty much that's it.



Based on what?
College 33,7% for 3 - 75% FTs
Rookie 21% for 3 - 77% FTs
Sophmore 32,7% for 3 and 72% FTs

College and Sophmore season pretty much mirror themselfs, and one outliner happends to be one of worst shooting performances even for a rookie, in very long time.



And turnover prone, bad decision maker, below average shooter, unnatural SG sounds like pefect fit just because he tries hard on defense during period of season nobody esle does?



When did we established Jett as SG? Based on fact that he couldn't guard SGs in college or during SL garbage league ?
I'm willing to bet my house on notion that Jett can't move his feet fast enough to guard guards in nba.



This is garbage argument and you know it. You know player loses value as soon as new contract is signed, your upper examples of Poole and Trae Young prove that. Suggs is way more valuable with just 2 injury prone seasons as trade asset than with 4 ( potentially injury prone) mediocre seasons and making twice or three times more money. All that while being 2 yeras older.




You realize that difference between Suggs last year, and Gary Harris year prior is almost non existent in terms of production?

Difference between them comes from fact that even in year where Harris shot better and scored more points, he still had lower usage rate.
And in 2022-23, Harris usage rate dropped to 12% where Suggs still has near 21% usage rate. And despite all that he only averages 1,6 ppg more DESPITE SHOOTING TWO SHOTS A GAME MORE?

Jalen Suggs in starting 5 will just be 5th option and average even less shots, if he shares floor with established group of Fultz, Wendell, Franz and Bacnhero. We can assume Banchero will actually average even more shots, so will Franz. So even if you decide to cream Suggs into that group, he will hardly ever touch ball, because there simply won't be enough balls for everybody to shoot.


Only arguments for Suggs as starting SG are non-logical and subjective. I like him because he is 5th overall pick and i prefer 5th overall pick to start over Gary Harris because Raptors fans troll me on reddit. That sort of BS. There is zero reasons why would Magic terrible spaced 5 replace elite shooter with below average who also happends to be turnover machine and pretty much basketball dummy in terms of decision making.

Are you implying that college and the nba are the same in terms of ease of scoring with that comparison?
Are you implying that a guy at the end of year 2 is the absolute best he is going to be going into year 3?

How is that a "garbage argument"? What is the cost of Suggs contract-wise AFTER next season and what is the value return for him now? Do you have answers for either of those things? We know what this FO handed Markelle after half a season of data. We have a little less than 2 on Suggs and I expect nothing close to that number based on his role despite providing more on the court.

This team has plenty of options on the court that can score the basketball. Franz, Paolo, Cole, Carter (in situations), and now Jett. Who do they have defensively? I can think of the corpse of Isaac, Gary on ball, and now Black if he can find minutes. Thats it.

You have to do better than "there are potentially made up trades in my head" for reasons why Orlando should move one of the better guard defenders in the league on a rookie deal because he isn't Donovan Mitchell offensively going into year 3 of his nba career.

Look I get it pepe. You hold grudges on players that have flaws in their games. There are players that we can agree on fitting this criteria. However, I'm also look at contracts and value outside of what is happening short term. You can wait 1.5 seasons before claiming a guy on a rookie deal needs to be moved for players yet to be named.

I'm implying that you have 2 nba seasons plus one year at college where he was never even average shooter.

We have a little less than 2 on Suggs and I expect nothing close to that number based on his role despite providing more on the court.

Can you elaborate or explain, do you think current version of Suggs brings more than current version of Fultz or version of Fultz that got exstension? Because current version of Suggs is much worst basketball player than current version of Fultz, regardless of how "broken" Fultz's jumpshot is.

You have to do better than "there are potentially made up trades in my head" for reasons why Orlando should move one of the better guard defenders in the league on a rookie deal because he isn't Donovan Mitchell offensively going into year 3 of his nba career.

Magic have 4 Point Guards.
Fultz is their starter, it's pointless to wate words on that. Guy will get exstension after this year. That thing is a wrap.
Black won't be able to shoot any time soon, so by default,he will also only be able to play PG.
Cole can play some of SG, but also prefers ball in his hands. Him and Suggs worked well , but he is hitting free agency in 10 months.

At some point you are facing harsh reality where Fultz will be resigned, Cole is free agent, and Black is rookie. Keeping all of them simply makes no sense. And in trades, expendable option who you can still get nice return , due draft stock, some injuries and not complete exposure in my eyes is- Suggs.

We don't need to agree on that, ofc. But i think his combination of rackless plays, complete lack of awarness on offense, terrible decision making and erratic human-cannon ball playstyle will just result on injuries going forward and isn't winning basketball.
Again, for all the praise people love to give him, he still had negative net rating. And as starter we lost 14 out of 19 games when he played.

Matter of fact, he has -6,2 net rating in games when he starts. His net rating as bench player, mainly paired with Cole, is +2,2.


SO why execlly people want to pencil him in starting lineup other than feel better about piss poor return of 5th overall investment? There simply isn't any logical explanation for it.

Sadly my true hope is that Cole makes a step forward... I loved what i saw in him and Suggs together last year. Their energy together seemed to lift the team and if we are going to even make the play-ins we need that. The next year will impact this team and if the wrong contracts get signed the window will be slammed closed quickly.

[KillMonger]

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[Skybox]

I really like Suggs off the bench- ideally with Cole. I don’t know if either becomes serious starters, but it’s easy to imagine that either could. The rest of the guard rotation, imo, is a big question mark. I have patience for the rookies (if you give them playing time)…the rest can go…sooner the better. Gary is a solid soldier but, if you cant bounce him out of the core rotation, you’re not doing your job in the FO.

There’s enough value here, in young guys and picks, to trade for a PROVEN scorer at SG. Id prefer to keep Suggs and Cole, but not rely too much on them to carry us. Either one are very capable already of being the best player on the court on any given night, just haven’t shown enough consistency to bet it all on them.

A whole flock of C+ guys with B+ potential. Trade some and let someone else try to guess who makes it…Herro is SO gettable right now. A long-term backcourt of Herro/Suggs with Cole, Black, Jett getting enough run to prove they deserve more is my ideal. You can’t bet on 6 guys…at some point, you need to bet on upside of just a few. If they drafted guards at #6 & #11 to watch, just to pay Fultz to learn to shoot and draw fouls by age 30 and Gary to take 5 shots per game on a team with no backcourt scoring…

[VFX]

I'm implying that you have 2 nba seasons plus one year at college where he was never even average shooter.

Right. That’s not enough information to pull the trigger on a trade if he’s been getting better at it against nba competition. If he elevates his play to be an above average shooter we are looking at a solid player. If he was regressing you might have a point here.

Can you elaborate or explain, do you think current version of Suggs brings more than current version of Fultz or version of Fultz that got exstension? Because current version of Suggs is much worst basketball player than current version of Fultz, regardless of how "broken" Fultz's jumpshot is.

Current ceiling on Suggs is higher. Can Fultz play shooting guard? Also, his defense is overblown. He’s a plus defender for a point guard, which we know isn’t as valuable as being a multi positional defender. In terms of value, we know the contract sizes already for both players next season.

Magic have 4 Point Guards.
Fultz is their starter, it's pointless to wate words on that. Guy will get exstension after this year. That thing is a wrap.
Black won't be able to shoot any time soon, so by default,he will also only be able to play PG.
Cole can play some of SG, but also prefers ball in his hands. Him and Suggs worked well , but he is hitting free agency in 10 months.

You keep saying Suggs is a point guard when he’s been off the bench as a SG for 1.5 seasons. You are who you defend. There are 3 point guards on this roster that cannot share the floor together Cole, Black, and Fultz. The best combo with Suggs is *prepare to be shocked* with Cole. Cole is not a SG, nor should he be. He’s not guarding SGs full time. Completely situational.

At some point you are facing harsh reality where Fultz will be resigned, Cole is free agent, and Black is rookie. Keeping all of them simply makes no sense. And in trades, expendable option who you can still get nice return , due draft stock, some injuries and not complete exposure in my eyes is- Suggs.

And this is where we disagree entirely. 1 of those players has proven capable of being a multi positional defender. That value is greater than what we don’t know yet about Black, who I think is basically a better passing, more controlled, jumbo defensive ++ version of Fultz due to his shortcomings. You’ve seen the contracts. How does moving Suggs and resigning Fultz help balance the roster after drafting Black? As you’ve said, moving Black anywhere else in the rotation negates the effectiveness of his game. I agree with that.

We don't need to agree on that, ofc. But i think his combination of rackless plays, complete lack of awarness on offense, terrible decision making and erratic human-cannon ball playstyle will just result on injuries going forward and isn't winning basketball.

SO why execlly people want to pencil him in starting lineup other than feel better about piss poor return of 5th overall investment? There simply isn't any logical explanation for it.

Nobody said he needs to start. Not sure where you are getting that. Ideally 3 years down the road Jett Howard is looking like pick #11 and not pick #21 next to Black as starters. The logical explanation for it is that some people value players that create opportunities on the defensive side of the ball to win basketball games. The threshold for you coming to these conclusions is 1.5 seasons of nba data. 1 rookie season gets a pass, but 1.5 is enough for the Pepe seal of approval on player upside I guess. I’m not high on Gary **** Harris who plays with zero energy or court presence.

Moving Suggs does not solve the point guard logjam. Even if you move him you are looking at a pretend starter, a backup who wants to be a starter, and a rookie that has a ceiling higher than both of them that will undoubtedly get squeezed out of minutes this season. That’s 1 player too much at 1 position and Suggs really has nothing to do with it while remaining relevant on the court and under a rookie deal.

[pepe1991]

I'm implying that you have 2 nba seasons plus one year at college where he was never even average shooter.

Right. That’s not enough information to pull the trigger on a trade if he’s been getting better at it against nba competition. If he elevates his play to be an above average shooter we are looking at a solid player. If he was regressing you might have a point here.

With more informations you have, lower value of former pick it is, if he is not blowing out

Can you elaborate or explain, do you think current version of Suggs brings more than current version of Fultz or version of Fultz that got exstension? Because current version of Suggs is much worst basketball player than current version of Fultz, regardless of how "broken" Fultz's jumpshot is.

Current ceiling on Suggs is higher. Can Fultz play shooting guard? Also, his defense is overblown. He’s a plus defender for a point guard, which we know isn’t as valuable as being a multi positional defender. In terms of value, we know the contract sizes already for both players next season.

Suggs is also plus defender at SG witch position isn't valuable to have elite defender at. I mean, best SG defender in nba is who? Execlly. Nobody cares. Thybulle? and Fultz can play as much of "SG" as Suggs can PG. They can't.

Magic have 4 Point Guards.
Fultz is their starter, it's pointless to wate words on that. Guy will get exstension after this year. That thing is a wrap.
Black won't be able to shoot any time soon, so by default,he will also only be able to play PG.
Cole can play some of SG, but also prefers ball in his hands. Him and Suggs worked well , but he is hitting free agency in 10 months.

You keep saying Suggs is a point guard when he’s been off the bench as a SG for 1.5 seasons. You are who you defend. There are 3 point guards on this roster that cannot share the floor together Cole, Black, and Fultz. The best combo with Suggs is *prepare to be shocked* with Cole. Cole is not a SG, nor should he be. He’s not guarding SGs full time. Completely situational.

Nop. He was terrible PG in year 1 and now for rest of un-injuried season 2 he was bench SG. Him and Cole make good bench duo. I already provided evidence that Suggs, even in second year, as starter, sucked. -6,2 net rating.

At some point you are facing harsh reality where Fultz will be resigned, Cole is free agent, and Black is rookie. Keeping all of them simply makes no sense. And in trades, expendable option who you can still get nice return , due draft stock, some injuries and not complete exposure in my eyes is- Suggs.

And this is where we disagree entirely. 1 of those players has proven capable of being a multi positional defender. That value is greater than what we don’t know yet about Black, who I think is basically a better passing, more controlled, jumbo defensive ++ version of Fultz due to his shortcomings. You’ve seen the contracts. How does moving Suggs and resigning Fultz help balance the roster after drafting Black? As you’ve said, moving Black anywhere else in the rotation negates the effectiveness of his game. I agree with that.

By multipositional defender you mean PG and SG. 6'4- 200 pounds, 6'5 wingspan. Witch happends to be same positions Fultz, Harris defend today.


We don't need to agree on that, ofc. But i think his combination of rackless plays, complete lack of awarness on offense, terrible decision making and erratic human-cannon ball playstyle will just result on injuries going forward and isn't winning basketball.

SO why execlly people want to pencil him in starting lineup other than feel better about piss poor return of 5th overall investment? There simply isn't any logical explanation for it.

Nobody said he needs to start. Not sure where you are getting that. Ideally 3 years down the road Jett Howard is looking like pick #11 and not pick #21 next to Black as starters. The logical explanation for it is that some people value players that create opportunities on the defensive side of the ball to win basketball games. The threshold for you coming to these conclusions is 1.5 seasons of nba data. 1 rookie season gets a pass, but 1.5 is enough for the Pepe seal of approval on player upside I guess. I’m not high on Gary **** Harris who plays with zero energy or court presence.

Moving Suggs does not solve the point guard logjam. Even if you move him you are looking at a pretend starter, a backup who wants to be a starter, and a rookie that has a ceiling higher than both of them that will undoubtedly get squeezed out of minutes this season. That’s 1 player too much at 1 position and Suggs really has nothing to do with it while remaining relevant on the court and under a rookie deal.

I already provided evidence that Harris on slightly bigger usage than last year (year prior ), provides more than Suggs on bigger usage than him. And does that way more effectivlly. Harris on sub 13% usage rate averaged only 1,5 ppg less than Suggs who took 21% usage rate and 2 more shots.
In general, regardless is it PG or SG , "providing defense" from those positions isn't a thing. Vast majority of best gaurd defenderes are nba bench players. Alex Caruso, Thybulle, Pat Bew, Smith jr, Dort, Aleverado, Suggs, Bruce Brown, Josh Green etc.

I would have 2 years of sample size if his playstyle isn't human cannon ball. But hey. What are odds of his playstyle resulting in healthy career? 1: 10000 ?
Promise me one thing: You won't b**** and moan how they should have traded him sooner, when he had value, in 2025/2026.

Look, whole thing to me is very simple:
AT PG he will never play on Magic again .
At SG there are way better players Magic can find, who fit roster better, who are natural shooters & shooting guards.

By default, given how much we invested in him, selling assets to recover at least portion of investment, is thing every business is doing . NBA is no different. People here tend to s*** all over Kuminga. And oh boy they would be shocked if they pulled numbers of both players and figure Kuminga is killing Suggs in majority of categories. But narrative for him is " he sucks" because he isn't on Magic and isn't blowing out as high pick. But Suggs is "excellent prospect" despite being year and half older and providing basically less, while playing more min and bigger usage

[VFX]

I'm implying that you have 2 nba seasons plus one year at college where he was never even average shooter.

Right. That’s not enough information to pull the trigger on a trade if he’s been getting better at it against nba competition. If he elevates his play to be an above average shooter we are looking at a solid player. If he was regressing you might have a point here.

With more informations you have, lower value of former pick it is, if he is not blowing out

Can you elaborate or explain, do you think current version of Suggs brings more than current version of Fultz or version of Fultz that got exstension? Because current version of Suggs is much worst basketball player than current version of Fultz, regardless of how "broken" Fultz's jumpshot is.

Current ceiling on Suggs is higher. Can Fultz play shooting guard? Also, his defense is overblown. He’s a plus defender for a point guard, which we know isn’t as valuable as being a multi positional defender. In terms of value, we know the contract sizes already for both players next season.

Suggs is also plus defender at SG witch position isn't valuable to have elite defender at. I mean, best SG defender in nba is who? Execlly. Nobody cares. Thybulle? and Fultz can play as much of "SG" as Suggs can PG. They can't.

Magic have 4 Point Guards.
Fultz is their starter, it's pointless to wate words on that. Guy will get exstension after this year. That thing is a wrap.
Black won't be able to shoot any time soon, so by default,he will also only be able to play PG.
Cole can play some of SG, but also prefers ball in his hands. Him and Suggs worked well , but he is hitting free agency in 10 months.

You keep saying Suggs is a point guard when he’s been off the bench as a SG for 1.5 seasons. You are who you defend. There are 3 point guards on this roster that cannot share the floor together Cole, Black, and Fultz. The best combo with Suggs is *prepare to be shocked* with Cole. Cole is not a SG, nor should he be. He’s not guarding SGs full time. Completely situational.

Nop. He was terrible PG in year 1 and now for rest of un-injuried season 2 he was bench SG. Him and Cole make good bench duo. I already provided evidence that Suggs, even in second year, as starter, sucked. -6,2 net rating.

At some point you are facing harsh reality where Fultz will be resigned, Cole is free agent, and Black is rookie. Keeping all of them simply makes no sense. And in trades, expendable option who you can still get nice return , due draft stock, some injuries and not complete exposure in my eyes is- Suggs.

And this is where we disagree entirely. 1 of those players has proven capable of being a multi positional defender. That value is greater than what we don’t know yet about Black, who I think is basically a better passing, more controlled, jumbo defensive ++ version of Fultz due to his shortcomings. You’ve seen the contracts. How does moving Suggs and resigning Fultz help balance the roster after drafting Black? As you’ve said, moving Black anywhere else in the rotation negates the effectiveness of his game. I agree with that.

By multipositional defender you mean PG and SG. 6'4- 200 pounds, 6'5 wingspan. Witch happends to be same positions Fultz, Harris defend today.


We don't need to agree on that, ofc. But i think his combination of rackless plays, complete lack of awarness on offense, terrible decision making and erratic human-cannon ball playstyle will just result on injuries going forward and isn't winning basketball.

SO why execlly people want to pencil him in starting lineup other than feel better about piss poor return of 5th overall investment? There simply isn't any logical explanation for it.

Nobody said he needs to start. Not sure where you are getting that. Ideally 3 years down the road Jett Howard is looking like pick #11 and not pick #21 next to Black as starters. The logical explanation for it is that some people value players that create opportunities on the defensive side of the ball to win basketball games. The threshold for you coming to these conclusions is 1.5 seasons of nba data. 1 rookie season gets a pass, but 1.5 is enough for the Pepe seal of approval on player upside I guess. I’m not high on Gary **** Harris who plays with zero energy or court presence.

Moving Suggs does not solve the point guard logjam. Even if you move him you are looking at a pretend starter, a backup who wants to be a starter, and a rookie that has a ceiling higher than both of them that will undoubtedly get squeezed out of minutes this season. That’s 1 player too much at 1 position and Suggs really has nothing to do with it while remaining relevant on the court and under a rookie deal.

I already provided evidence that Harris on slightly bigger usage than last year (year prior ), provides more than Suggs on bigger usage than him. And does that way more effectivlly. Harris on sub 13% usage rate averaged only 1,5 ppg less than Suggs who took 21% usage rate and 2 more shots.
In general, regardless is it PG or SG , "providing defense" from those positions isn't a thing. Vast majority of best gaurd defenderes are nba bench players. Alex Caruso, Thybulle, Pat Bew, Smith jr, Dort, Aleverado, Suggs, Bruce Brown, Josh Green etc.

I would have 2 years of sample size if his playstyle isn't human cannon ball. But hey. What are odds of his playstyle resulting in healthy career? 1: 10000 ?
Promise me one thing: You won't b**** and mona how they should have traded him sooner, when he had value, in 2025/2026.

Why would I?

He’s actually on the court doing positive things on a rookie contract. What don’t you understand about that???

He isn’t Bamba getting DNP’s and zero minutes to Moritz Wagner in year 4. He isn’t making $17m in year 3 after being in the league for 7 years. He’s not RJ Hampton playing garbage minutes and losing out to Kevon Harris.

Actually think about player value for more than 1 minute outside of looking at a depth chart. Dort, Brown, etc. are players you want on a playoff team as is Suggs. Again, you have an argument if there is no path toward minutes and Suggs salary outweighs his court value. Neither of those things are true.

I know you aren’t a casual fan, so why are you talking like you don’t understand player roles? Is there more in the nba than superstars and bench players? Don’t be a casual because you are dying on a hill you’ve built yourself.

He only started 19 games in 22/23 but averaged 23mpg, he’s solidly in the rotation. It doesn’t really matter what qualifying statements you’re making to justify otherwise. It would be a dumb idea to move him while still on a rookie deal with how his game has been trending.

[Residual-Heat]

Spoiler:

When you are 6'3 -200 pounds person with 6'5 wingspan in NBA, only position you can play is PG and SG.Roles such player can provide are: ballhandler, off ball shooter. Pretty much that's it.



Based on what?
College 33,7% for 3 - 75% FTs
Rookie 21% for 3 - 77% FTs
Sophmore 32,7% for 3 and 72% FTs

College and Sophmore season pretty much mirror themselfs, and one outliner happends to be one of worst shooting performances even for a rookie, in very long time.



And turnover prone, bad decision maker, below average shooter, unnatural SG sounds like pefect fit just because he tries hard on defense during period of season nobody esle does?



When did we established Jett as SG? Based on fact that he couldn't guard SGs in college or during SL garbage league ?
I'm willing to bet my house on notion that Jett can't move his feet fast enough to guard guards in nba.



This is garbage argument and you know it. You know player loses value as soon as new contract is signed, your upper examples of Poole and Trae Young prove that. Suggs is way more valuable with just 2 injury prone seasons as trade asset than with 4 ( potentially injury prone) mediocre seasons and making twice or three times more money. All that while being 2 yeras older.




You realize that difference between Suggs last year, and Gary Harris year prior is almost non existent in terms of production?

Difference between them comes from fact that even in year where Harris shot better and scored more points, he still had lower usage rate.
And in 2022-23, Harris usage rate dropped to 12% where Suggs still has near 21% usage rate. And despite all that he only averages 1,6 ppg more DESPITE SHOOTING TWO SHOTS A GAME MORE?

Jalen Suggs in starting 5 will just be 5th option and average even less shots, if he shares floor with established group of Fultz, Wendell, Franz and Bacnhero. We can assume Banchero will actually average even more shots, so will Franz. So even if you decide to cream Suggs into that group, he will hardly ever touch ball, because there simply won't be enough balls for everybody to shoot.


Only arguments for Suggs as starting SG are non-logical and subjective. I like him because he is 5th overall pick and i prefer 5th overall pick to start over Gary Harris because Raptors fans troll me on reddit. That sort of BS. There is zero reasons why would Magic terrible spaced 5 replace elite shooter with below average who also happends to be turnover machine and pretty much basketball dummy in terms of decision making.

Are you implying that college and the nba are the same in terms of ease of scoring with that comparison?
Are you implying that a guy at the end of year 2 is the absolute best he is going to be going into year 3?

How is that a "garbage argument"? What is the cost of Suggs contract-wise AFTER next season and what is the value return for him now? Do you have answers for either of those things? We know what this FO handed Markelle after half a season of data. We have a little less than 2 on Suggs and I expect nothing close to that number based on his role despite providing more on the court.

This team has plenty of options on the court that can score the basketball. Franz, Paolo, Cole, Carter (in situations), and now Jett. Who do they have defensively? I can think of the corpse of Isaac, Gary on ball, and now Black if he can find minutes. Thats it.

You have to do better than "there are potentially made up trades in my head" for reasons why Orlando should move one of the better guard defenders in the league on a rookie deal because he isn't Donovan Mitchell offensively going into year 3 of his nba career.

Look I get it pepe. You hold grudges on players that have flaws in their games. There are players that we can agree on fitting this criteria. However, I'm also look at contracts and value outside of what is happening short term. You can wait 1.5 seasons before claiming a guy on a rookie deal needs to be moved for players yet to be named.

I'm implying that you have 2 nba seasons plus one year at college where he was never even average shooter.

We have a little less than 2 on Suggs and I expect nothing close to that number based on his role despite providing more on the court.

Can you elaborate or explain, do you think current version of Suggs brings more than current version of Fultz or version of Fultz that got exstension? Because current version of Suggs is much worst basketball player than current version of Fultz, regardless of how "broken" Fultz's jumpshot is.

You have to do better than "there are potentially made up trades in my head" for reasons why Orlando should move one of the better guard defenders in the league on a rookie deal because he isn't Donovan Mitchell offensively going into year 3 of his nba career.

Magic have 4 Point Guards.
Fultz is their starter, it's pointless to wate words on that. Guy will get exstension after this year. That thing is a wrap.
Black won't be able to shoot any time soon, so by default,he will also only be able to play PG.
Cole can play some of SG, but also prefers ball in his hands. Him and Suggs worked well , but he is hitting free agency in 10 months.

At some point you are facing harsh reality where Fultz will be resigned, Cole is free agent, and Black is rookie. Keeping all of them simply makes no sense. And in trades, expendable option who you can still get nice return , due draft stock, some injuries and not complete exposure in my eyes is- Suggs.

We don't need to agree on that, ofc. But i think his combination of rackless plays, complete lack of awarness on offense, terrible decision making and erratic human-cannon ball playstyle will just result on injuries going forward and isn't winning basketball.
[b]Again, for all the praise people love to give him, he still had negative net rating. And as starter we lost 14 out of 19 games when he played.

Matter of fact, he has -6,2 net rating in games when he starts. His net rating as bench player, mainly paired with Cole, is +2,2.[/b]


SO why execlly people want to pencil him in starting lineup other than feel better about piss poor return of 5th overall investment? There simply isn't any logical explanation for it.

Its not really fair to blame the losses on Suggs. When he started at the beginning of the season he still had the lingering knee issue, and even sprained his ankle and had to be pulled from the rotation for a few games. Plus we had a lot of other injuries to the roster. Came back and again so many rotation players were injured, at times we had Bol and Bamba starting together. In 7 of those 19 games Paolo (who was averaging 24/4/8 at the time) was out with an injury.

[pepe1991]

I already provided evidence that Harris on slightly bigger usage than last year (year prior ), provides more than Suggs on bigger usage than him. And does that way more effectivlly. Harris on sub 13% usage rate averaged only 1,5 ppg less than Suggs who took 21% usage rate and 2 more shots.
In general, regardless is it PG or SG , "providing defense" from those positions isn't a thing. Vast majority of best gaurd defenderes are nba bench players. Alex Caruso, Thybulle, Pat Bew, Smith jr, Dort, Aleverado, Suggs, Bruce Brown, Josh Green etc.

I would have 2 years of sample size if his playstyle isn't human cannon ball. But hey. What are odds of his playstyle resulting in healthy career? 1: 10000 ?
Promise me one thing: You won't b**** and mona how they should have traded him sooner, when he had value, in 2025/2026.

Why would I?

He’s actually on the court doing positive things on a rookie contract. What don’t you understand about that???

He isn’t Bamba getting DNP’s and zero minutes to Moritz Wagner in year 4. He isn’t making $17m in year 3 after being in the league for 7 years. He’s not RJ Hampton playing garbage minutes and losing out to Kevon Harris.

Actually think about player value for more than 1 minute outside of looking at a depth chart. Dort, Brown, etc. are players you want on a playoff team as is Suggs. Again, you have an argument if there is no path toward minutes and Suggs salary outweighs his court value. Neither of those things are true.

I know you aren’t a casual fan, so why are you talking like you don’t understand player roles? Is there more in the nba than superstars and bench players? Don’t be a casual because you are dying on a hill you’ve built yourself.

He only started 19 games in 22/23 but averaged 23mpg, he’s solidly in the rotation. It doesn’t really matter what qualifying statements you’re making to justify otherwise. It would be a dumb idea to move him while still on a rookie deal with how his game has been trending.

I think there is massive difference of expetations you and me have from top 5 lottery picks.

I belive that if you draft top 5 player in draft, your expetations from him should be sky high, because invested value is just that- sky high and one wasted year for fans all across the world in order to get him.

History of 5th pick in particular in past 20 years tells you that you should expect elite player. From 2017,2018 and 2019 three different Point Guards drafted 5th turned into allstars. From 2003- 2019 , 7 different 5th overall picks were allstars.


So forgive me for not being okey to random comparisons with Lu Dort and Brown, who, yes, are "valuable" players, but literally went undrafted because they have no basketball "skill". Their basketball "skill" is to play hard. That, in my book, isn't basketball talent. Witch brings me with main issue with Suggs. He has no clear basketball talent.

To me, all that means he has more value as trade asset until his draft mistique isn't gone, than he has as player,given players of similar skillset go undrafted almost every year and are payed peanuts. Our favorite team to compare ourselfs with, OKC, found their Suggs with 49th pick in Isaiah Joe. Even 76ers found boring pesky defender in second round, Lakers won championship with Caruso being annoying defender. Also undrafted player.


And literally every year we witness what high end, not talented , defensive specialist guard actually can do on contender as starter.

In games when Smart funcioned like normal starting level nba guard, and was able to shoot like - guards should, Celtics won 3 games in a row and had him going 18-38 FG ( 47,3% ) & 11-26 (42% for 3) on his 15 ppg.

In games where Marcus Smart was not funcioning like actual starting level guard should, he shot 11-30 FG (36,% ) & 4- 16 for 3 ( 25%) on ugly 9,2 ppg.
And they lost all 4 of those games.


This isn't one series wonder, in nba finals he averaged 21 ppg on 54% FG in wins and in losses he averaged 12 ppg on 37% FG.

And if you go back in 2020, it's same pattern - 23 ppg on 73% FG in win, 16 ppg on 31% FG in losses.



Esencially his inabiilty to provide any sort of stability and him never being reliable offensive options almost always was biggest swing in big stake Celtics games.
And Smart is actually way better defender than Suggs, more durable and much bigger , has bigger wingspan, and in general is way more physical. He is also turning the ball over less etc.


Also isn't it funny how you never want to adress what causes his injuries. And how you simply ignore fact that majority of Suggs clashes & awkward falls happen because he plays like kamikaze. How many times he will crush into 6'10, 260 pounds person before he gets serious injury?

To me bottom line is simple: i don't need my 5th overall investment to be pesky bench SG, in times i have no starting level PG, nor any sort of reliable backup PF , and especially not backup C, who are all way more needed than defensive bench guard. ( btw ,who's role can easly be replaced with Black anyway)

[RichCollab]

Blah Blah facts facts Blah Blah opinion opinion Blah Blah.

Suggs starts SG. He will cement this in training camp.

Oh yeah, Blah Blah Blah

[89Magicfan]

I think you got a lot to this. Fultz being number 1. If he can’t be the player you can put around Paolo/Franz and thrive, you have to move on. His contract status puts that at the most priority. Suggs, he’s got to show continue upward trajectory and really solidify himself as a starter. He’s not a guy I’d move right now until you figure out Fultz. He’s inexpensive. He’s talented. The things he needs to work on can be worked on and he’s got a fire in him that’s unteachable. He rises to the occasion. An very important intangible that isn’t taken seriously. I’m not giving that up right now. I think you have to start him. Harris may be the better spot up shooter but there’s nothing else he brings to the table like Suggs does.

Fultz is the guy I’m looking at real hard right now to see if he’s capped out.

[Knightro]

To me bottom line is simple: i don't need my 5th overall investment to be pesky bench SG, in times i have no starting level PG, nor any sort of reliable backup PF , and especially not backup C, who are all way more needed than defensive bench guard. ( btw ,who's role can easly be replaced with Black anyway)

I wouldn't get too caught up in Suggs' draft position. That just feels far less important than what he can still possibly become.

"Pesky bench SG" is what Suggs already is right now if he literally doesn't improve any part of his game at all at any point for the rest of his career.

He can give 20 good minutes a night right now because already did it (21.6 MPG and a +0.6 NET from Jan 5th onward).

If he keeps improving, he can and will be afforded the opportunity to do more and more.

[Knightro]

Fultz is the guy I’m looking at real hard right now to see if he’s capped out.

It stands to reason that Fultz is the most capped out/has the least amount of development left of the four young guards (Fultz, Black, Anthony and Suggs) because he's the oldest and further into his NBA career, right?

[VFX]

I already provided evidence that Harris on slightly bigger usage than last year (year prior ), provides more than Suggs on bigger usage than him. And does that way more effectivlly. Harris on sub 13% usage rate averaged only 1,5 ppg less than Suggs who took 21% usage rate and 2 more shots.
In general, regardless is it PG or SG , "providing defense" from those positions isn't a thing. Vast majority of best gaurd defenderes are nba bench players. Alex Caruso, Thybulle, Pat Bew, Smith jr, Dort, Aleverado, Suggs, Bruce Brown, Josh Green etc.

I would have 2 years of sample size if his playstyle isn't human cannon ball. But hey. What are odds of his playstyle resulting in healthy career? 1: 10000 ?
Promise me one thing: You won't b**** and mona how they should have traded him sooner, when he had value, in 2025/2026.

Why would I?

He’s actually on the court doing positive things on a rookie contract. What don’t you understand about that???

He isn’t Bamba getting DNP’s and zero minutes to Moritz Wagner in year 4. He isn’t making $17m in year 3 after being in the league for 7 years. He’s not RJ Hampton playing garbage minutes and losing out to Kevon Harris.

Actually think about player value for more than 1 minute outside of looking at a depth chart. Dort, Brown, etc. are players you want on a playoff team as is Suggs. Again, you have an argument if there is no path toward minutes and Suggs salary outweighs his court value. Neither of those things are true.

I know you aren’t a casual fan, so why are you talking like you don’t understand player roles? Is there more in the nba than superstars and bench players? Don’t be a casual because you are dying on a hill you’ve built yourself.

He only started 19 games in 22/23 but averaged 23mpg, he’s solidly in the rotation. It doesn’t really matter what qualifying statements you’re making to justify otherwise. It would be a dumb idea to move him while still on a rookie deal with how his game has been trending.

To me bottom line is simple: i don't need my 5th overall investment to be pesky bench SG, in times i have no starting level PG, nor any sort of reliable backup PF , and especially not backup C, who are all way more needed than defensive bench guard. ( btw ,who's role can easly be replaced with Black anyway)

So your big gripe with Suggs is that he didn't live up to the #5 pick despite Franz becoming arguably the best player out of that draft anyway? Ok sure I guess.

Yeah, we don't know where he will land in his prime but he hasn't lived up to #5. Marcus Smart was selected #6 and Suggs is basically where he was at this stage in his career. You would have traded a DPOY in year 2 because he isnt exactly the kind of player YOU expected him to be.

It's now just a forgone conclusion that the former #1 overall pick in Orlando is going to be paid an exorbitant amount of money to be a mediocre starter but Suggs has to be the one moved in your estimation because he hasn't lived up to being the #5 pick 2 years in? Thats funny.

We should make sure to have 3-level scoring champions at all positions regardless of contract size and draft position because all top 5-10 picks always pan out based on where they are selected and nothing else matters as long as you aren't coming off the bench. Totally reasonable and sane take.

[89Magicfan]

Fultz is the guy I’m looking at real hard right now to see if he’s capped out.

It stands to reason that Fultz is the most capped out/has the least amount of development left of the four young guards (Fultz, Black, Anthony and Suggs) because he's the oldest and further into his NBA career, right?

I believe so. I also don’t like him with the dynamic of our core but if he shows consistency on his ability to stay healthy, hit three’s, provide floor spacing, then you got our best PG atm.

Personally I’m with you. I’m skeptical.