RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #1 (LeBron James)

[MyUniBroDavis]

Maaan... The level of LeBron fanboiysm and Jordan hate here became just silly... Consensus GOAT Jordan here is only 3rd... Even Kareem became better... Some analytical data about Kareem was discovered in 2023 I suppose...

Great discussion from GB:

"X wrote:
Y wrote:
Zwrote:
Feels like LeBron has overtaken him in communities like this


When did this happen


Believe it or not, but right now in the Players Comparison board they are doing a "RealGM Top 100 All-Time" debate and LeBron is far and away the most voted player for #1.


The same board that has threads going hundreds of pages about LeBron each year even when he is missing the playoffs? It's the LeBron board. No one who knows what is going on takes it seriously. Any real discussion around here takes place on the General Board

+1 to everything about the PC board. What a fall from grace. That was - by far - my favorite board for years. There are still some great posters there, but man, the current top 100 discussion is a tough read. A bunch of dudes working backwards from "I want LeBron to be the best" and patting themselves on thr back once they've found some path they can argue in bad faith. Talking about how the conversation around LeBron vs. Jordan has shifted because some thread made up of mostly posters from the dedicated LeBron thread favors LeBron. Zero self-awareness.

There are definitely some solid arguments on the LeBron side but that thread is mostly going with "LeBron looks great with these metrics, we don't have them for MJ, and since he's my favorite player, LeBron must have been better".."

2 things

The PC board fell off a bit but the general board is literally dumber than ISH without being as funny lol

Ur the user that went around going to a bunch of posters in the PC board DMing them the same copy and pasted message “hi I think ur an amazing best poster, could you please answer my question uwu” so I know you ain’t talking

[Clyde Frazier]

Maaan... The level of LeBron fanboiysm and Jordan hate here became just silly... Consensus GOAT Jordan here is only 3rd... Even Kareem became better... Some analytical data about Kareem was discovered in 2023 I suppose...

Great discussion from GB:

"X wrote:
Y wrote:
Zwrote:
Feels like LeBron has overtaken him in communities like this


When did this happen


Believe it or not, but right now in the Players Comparison board they are doing a "RealGM Top 100 All-Time" debate and LeBron is far and away the most voted player for #1.


The same board that has threads going hundreds of pages about LeBron each year even when he is missing the playoffs? It's the LeBron board. No one who knows what is going on takes it seriously. Any real discussion around here takes place on the General Board

+1 to everything about the PC board. What a fall from grace. That was - by far - my favorite board for years. There are still some great posters there, but man, the current top 100 discussion is a tough read. A bunch of dudes working backwards from "I want LeBron to be the best" and patting themselves on thr back once they've found some path they can argue in bad faith. Talking about how the conversation around LeBron vs. Jordan has shifted because some thread made up of mostly posters from the dedicated LeBron thread favors LeBron. Zero self-awareness.

There are definitely some solid arguments on the LeBron side but that thread is mostly going with "LeBron looks great with these metrics, we don't have them for MJ, and since he's my favorite player, LeBron must have been better".."

Ok so people on the general board don't think LeBron is the GOAT. Guess what? Neither do I. However, "y'all don't know what you're talking about because you disagree with me and the PC board sucks" isn't productive and doesn't belong in these top 100 threads. If you plan to make any more posts in top 100 threads please include relevant content.

[MyUniBroDavis]

Maaan... The level of LeBron fanboiysm and Jordan hate here became just silly... Consensus GOAT Jordan here is only 3rd... Even Kareem became better... Some analytical data about Kareem was discovered in 2023 I suppose...

Great discussion from GB:

"X wrote:
Y wrote:
Zwrote:
Feels like LeBron has overtaken him in communities like this


When did this happen


Believe it or not, but right now in the Players Comparison board they are doing a "RealGM Top 100 All-Time" debate and LeBron is far and away the most voted player for #1.


The same board that has threads going hundreds of pages about LeBron each year even when he is missing the playoffs? It's the LeBron board. No one who knows what is going on takes it seriously. Any real discussion around here takes place on the General Board."

Why do you even bother then?

This is him btw, and he sent it to multiple users in the PC board



He’s not a real human being

[homecourtloss]

I have to say it is shocking to see LeBron has left everybody behind in this debate. I know this forum has a "pro-LeBron" reputation, but I still expected more votes for Jordan. The mystique of MJ really does seem to be losing its hold on at least a subset of fans. Not saying this is the avant-garde here, necessarily, and definitely not a representative sample, but it will be interesting to track this in the wider public over time. A clear alternative is available to people now in LeBron James, and while he'll never be Mike in sheer peak popularity, fans can compare their careers in a variety of lights, and a significant number prefer James.

There's also the generational thing, but again, with this subset of fansat least, that doesn't appear to be a factor. A growing number of people just prefer or value LeBron higher.

I’m not sure how much his mystique is dissipating, but what I do think we have seen over the course of especially the last six or seven years is a shift in mentality and how things are evaluated, especially as the workforce itself in all capacities and in all fields gravitates towards statistical analysis.

There are posters here who were part of the first wave of statistical analyzers that chipped away at the unimpeachable, unassailable aura around Jordan that his hagiographers had built and put evaluations under the light of statistical analysis. With the popularity of Ben and Thinking basketball, and a plethora of other numbers-based approaches to evaluating players, along with the most access ever to footage and data that we have ever had access to, we’ve seen discourse change.

This isn’t to say that Michael Jordan fares poorly under statistical analysis, as it’s actually quite the opposite, but what we do get is a quantifying of his impact and his “goodness,“ and we see that there is no outsized, outlier difference between him and others, and this is a key delineation in the analytics era, one that makes it possible to discuss in detail the “goodness” the players, without being dismissed offhand as a Heretic for not having Jordan at the top, something that would still happen on the general board.

From the looks of things on GB, not much dissipating: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2306334

Just thankful for a place like the PC board in which we can have nuanced discussions and have thought out words for James, Kareem, Russell, Jordan, and Wilt.

Maaan... The level of LeBron fanboiysm and Jordan hate here became just silly... Consensus GOAT Jordan here is only 3rd... Even Kareem became better... Some analytical data about Kareem was discovered in 2023 I suppose...

Great discussion from GB:

"X wrote:
Y wrote:
Zwrote:
Feels like LeBron has overtaken him in communities like this


When did this happen


Believe it or not, but right now in the Players Comparison board they are doing a "RealGM Top 100 All-Time" debate and LeBron is far and away the most voted player for #1.


The same board that has threads going hundreds of pages about LeBron each year even when he is missing the playoffs? It's the LeBron board. No one who knows what is going on takes it seriously. Any real discussion around here takes place on the General Board

+1 to everything about the PC board. What a fall from grace. That was - by far - my favorite board for years. There are still some great posters there, but man, the current top 100 discussion is a tough read. A bunch of dudes working backwards from "I want LeBron to be the best" and patting themselves on thr back once they've found some path they can argue in bad faith. Talking about how the conversation around LeBron vs. Jordan has shifted because some thread made up of mostly posters from the dedicated LeBron thread favors LeBron. Zero self-awareness.

There are definitely some solid arguments on the LeBron side but that thread is mostly going with "LeBron looks great with these metrics, we don't have them for MJ, and since he's my favorite player, LeBron must have been better".."

And there it is, the outright anger that’s common when anyone dares to say anything other than “Jordan Goat.” It’s pretty wild in this GB thread.

[rk2023]

Maaan... The level of LeBron fanboiysm and Jordan hate here became just silly... Consensus GOAT Jordan here is only 3rd... Even Kareem became better... Some analytical data about Kareem was discovered in 2023 I suppose...

Great discussion from GB:

"X wrote:
Y wrote:
Zwrote:
Feels like LeBron has overtaken him in communities like this


When did this happen


Believe it or not, but right now in the Players Comparison board they are doing a "RealGM Top 100 All-Time" debate and LeBron is far and away the most voted player for #1.


The same board that has threads going hundreds of pages about LeBron each year even when he is missing the playoffs? It's the LeBron board. No one who knows what is going on takes it seriously. Any real discussion around here takes place on the General Board."

Why do you even bother then?

This is him btw, and he sent it to multiple users in the PC board



He’s not a real human being

I've heard stories of others (myself included, directly) receiving these same PMs - which is perfectly fine and a good way to foster discourse on here.

On the other hand:
I think it has been as of 2023 this tirade has been going on, where I've seen Gregoire on LeBron threads and other PC Board ones (where James is one of the subjects) baiting or inciting bad-faith back and forth discussion - to the point of warnings, including for name-dropping others out of the blue and sending odd, rhetoric-driven messages:

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2232781&p=104388847&hilit=lechoke#p104388847
viewtopic.php?p=104414614#p104414614

I don't believe myself and many others (including some long-time PC Board veterans such as Eminence, 70sFan, Dr Positivity, Doc, Colbinii, HCL amongst other participants) whom all voted &/or regard James over Jordan have come across from an angle of 'fanboyism' or 'bad-faith' arguing. Rather tossing off such labels in a complete vacuum is what is being done in bad faith here.

[MyUniBroDavis]

Why do you even bother then?

This is him btw, and he sent it to multiple users in the PC board



He’s not a real human being

I've heard stories of others (myself included, directly) receiving these same PMs - which is perfectly fine and a good way to foster discourse on here.

On the other hand:
I think it has been as of 2023 this tirade has been going on, where I've seen Gregoire on LeBron threads and other PC Board ones (where James is one of the subjects) baiting or inciting bad-faith back and forth discussion - to the point of warnings, including for name-dropping others out of the blue and sending odd, rhetoric-driven messages:

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2232781&p=104388847&hilit=lechoke#p104388847
viewtopic.php?p=104414614#p104414614

I don't believe myself and many others (including some long-time PC Board veterans such as Eminence, 70sFan, Dr Positivity, Doc, Colbinii, HCL amongst other participants) whom all voted &/or regard James over Jordan have come across from an angle of 'fanboyism' or 'bad-faith' arguing. Rather tossing off such labels in a complete vacuum is what is being done in bad faith here.

i think brain got fried after trying to study for the Turing Test

[MyUniBroDavis]

^ he got a D- btw

[twyzted]

Whoops: I posted the versions using raw Win Shares and not adjusted ones for Kareem, MJ, and LeBron. Will update shortly.

EDIT: I've fixed them now.

By the way, LeBron's 2009 season has the highest estimated championship probability under this model of any player season, at 0.715.

The top 4 here:

2009 LeBron, .715
1964 Wilt, .706
1974 Kareem, .628
1991 Jordan, .606

Does any player outside these 4 top .600?

Another epic choke job by Lebron

[penbeast0]

Actually 3 of the 4 "most likely to win teams in NBA history" by this measure, didn't.

[ShaqAttac]

Maaan... The level of LeBron fanboiysm and Jordan hate here became just silly... Consensus GOAT Jordan here is only 3rd... Even Kareem became better... Some analytical data about Kareem was discovered in 2023 I suppose...

Great discussion from GB:

"X wrote:
Y wrote:
Zwrote:
Feels like LeBron has overtaken him in communities like this


When did this happen


Believe it or not, but right now in the Players Comparison board they are doing a "RealGM Top 100 All-Time" debate and LeBron is far and away the most voted player for #1.


The same board that has threads going hundreds of pages about LeBron each year even when he is missing the playoffs? It's the LeBron board. No one who knows what is going on takes it seriously. Any real discussion around here takes place on the General Board

+1 to everything about the PC board. What a fall from grace. That was - by far - my favorite board for years. There are still some great posters there, but man, the current top 100 discussion is a tough read. A bunch of dudes working backwards from "I want LeBron to be the best" and patting themselves on thr back once they've found some path they can argue in bad faith. Talking about how the conversation around LeBron vs. Jordan has shifted because some thread made up of mostly posters from the dedicated LeBron thread favors LeBron. Zero self-awareness.

There are definitely some solid arguments on the LeBron side but that thread is mostly going with "LeBron looks great with these metrics, we don't have them for MJ, and since he's my favorite player, LeBron must have been better".."

2 things

The PC board fell off a bit but the general board is literally dumber than ISH without being as funny lol

Ur the user that went around going to a bunch of posters in the PC board DMing them the same copy and pasted message “hi I think ur an amazing best poster, could you please answer my question uwu” so I know you ain’t talking

pc board has been peakin. args have been crazy good. problem is alot of those args are against mj, and gb doesn't like that

[twyzted]

Actually 3 of the 4 "most likely to win teams in NBA history" by this measure, didn't.

Another fine example of Jordans greatness.

[twyzted]

Maaan... The level of LeBron fanboiysm and Jordan hate here became just silly... Consensus GOAT Jordan here is only 3rd... Even Kareem became better... Some analytical data about Kareem was discovered in 2023 I suppose...

Great discussion from GB:

"X wrote:
Y wrote:
Zwrote:
Feels like LeBron has overtaken him in communities like this


When did this happen


Believe it or not, but right now in the Players Comparison board they are doing a "RealGM Top 100 All-Time" debate and LeBron is far and away the most voted player for #1.


The same board that has threads going hundreds of pages about LeBron each year even when he is missing the playoffs? It's the LeBron board. No one who knows what is going on takes it seriously. Any real discussion around here takes place on the General Board

+1 to everything about the PC board. What a fall from grace. That was - by far - my favorite board for years. There are still some great posters there, but man, the current top 100 discussion is a tough read. A bunch of dudes working backwards from "I want LeBron to be the best" and patting themselves on thr back once they've found some path they can argue in bad faith. Talking about how the conversation around LeBron vs. Jordan has shifted because some thread made up of mostly posters from the dedicated LeBron thread favors LeBron. Zero self-awareness.

There are definitely some solid arguments on the LeBron side but that thread is mostly going with "LeBron looks great with these metrics, we don't have them for MJ, and since he's my favorite player, LeBron must have been better".."

2 things

The PC board fell off a bit but the general board is literally dumber than ISH without being as funny lol

Ur the user that went around going to a bunch of posters in the PC board DMing them the same copy and pasted message “hi I think ur an amazing best poster, could you please answer my question uwu” so I know you ain’t talking

pc board has been peakin. args have been crazy good. problem is alot of those args are against mj, and gb doesn't like that

Nahh it would be fairly easy to poke holes in many of these arguments for Lebron.

[ShaqAttac]

2 things

The PC board fell off a bit but the general board is literally dumber than ISH without being as funny lol

Ur the user that went around going to a bunch of posters in the PC board DMing them the same copy and pasted message “hi I think ur an amazing best poster, could you please answer my question uwu” so I know you ain’t talking

pc board has been peakin. args have been crazy good. problem is alot of those args are against mj, and gb doesn't like that

Nahh it would be fairly easy to poke holes in many of these arguments for Lebron.

doubt

[Djoker]

Unfortunately I missed this project but it's ok. My input wouldn't have swung things in all likelihood.

I would have voted #1 Russell #2 Jordan #3 Kareem #4 Lebron.

[eminence]

Unfortunately I missed this project but it's ok. My input wouldn't have swung things in all likelihood.

I would have voted #1 Russell #2 Jordan #3 Kareem #4 Lebron.

If you wanted I'm sure you could speak with Doc MJ and join in for future threads? Feel free to share thoughts in current threads either way (currently Wilt/Magic/Shaq/KG/Curry are the nominees being discussed for #7).

[LukaTheGOAT]

Whoops: I posted the versions using raw Win Shares and not adjusted ones for Kareem, MJ, and LeBron. Will update shortly.

EDIT: I've fixed them now.

By the way, LeBron's 2009 season has the highest estimated championship probability under this model of any player season, at 0.715.

The top 4 here:

2009 LeBron, .715
1964 Wilt, .706
1974 Kareem, .628
1991 Jordan, .606

Does any player outside these 4 top .600?

Another epic choke job by Lebron

The metric is also saying he peaked the highest btw.

[Doctor MJ]

Unfortunately I missed this project but it's ok. My input wouldn't have swung things in all likelihood.

I would have voted #1 Russell #2 Jordan #3 Kareem #4 Lebron.

If you wanted I'm sure you could speak with Doc MJ and join in for future threads? Feel free to share thoughts in current threads either way (currently Wilt/Magic/Shaq/KG/Curry are the nominees being discussed for #7).

Indeed. Just start participating and once you've shown your capacity - seriously, politely - for that, ask to be added Djoker.

[Doctor MJ]

This is him btw, and he sent it to multiple users in the PC board



He’s not a real human being

I've heard stories of others (myself included, directly) receiving these same PMs - which is perfectly fine and a good way to foster discourse on here.

On the other hand:
I think it has been as of 2023 this tirade has been going on, where I've seen Gregoire on LeBron threads and other PC Board ones (where James is one of the subjects) baiting or inciting bad-faith back and forth discussion - to the point of warnings, including for name-dropping others out of the blue and sending odd, rhetoric-driven messages:

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2232781&p=104388847&hilit=lechoke#p104388847
viewtopic.php?p=104414614#p104414614

I don't believe myself and many others (including some long-time PC Board veterans such as Eminence, 70sFan, Dr Positivity, Doc, Colbinii, HCL amongst other participants) whom all voted &/or regard James over Jordan have come across from an angle of 'fanboyism' or 'bad-faith' arguing. Rather tossing off such labels in a complete vacuum is what is being done in bad faith here.

i think brain got fried after trying to study for the Turing Test

Guys, I understand that it built up to this over time since before this project, but you need to dial it back. No more insults to each other or there's going to have to be more serious consequences.

Doc

[TheLand13]

2 things

The PC board fell off a bit but the general board is literally dumber than ISH without being as funny lol

Ur the user that went around going to a bunch of posters in the PC board DMing them the same copy and pasted message “hi I think ur an amazing best poster, could you please answer my question uwu” so I know you ain’t talking

pc board has been peakin. args have been crazy good. problem is alot of those args are against mj, and gb doesn't like that

Nahh it would be fairly easy to poke holes in many of these arguments for Lebron.

So do it then.

[MyUniBroDavis]

pc board has been peakin. args have been crazy good. problem is alot of those args are against mj, and gb doesn't like that

Nahh it would be fairly easy to poke holes in many of these arguments for Lebron.

So do it then.

Half the general board can barely poke holes through paper lol