2023-24 Season Discussion and Speculation - Free Agency Begins

[Mulhollanddrive]

I reckon the West is pretty open this season.

Teams with aging stars: GSW, Lakers, Clippers
Younger stars but unproven teams: Memphis, Sacramento, New Orleans, Dallas
Top Contenders: Denver, Phoenix

[SunsRback4Good]

I dont get some DA supporters... I want to see DA succeed more than you do. You seem comfortable just the way he is...I want to see him untap that potential I know hes got. Go beast mode and fight on both ends of the court...

The argument about Aytons worth ethic and mental didn't just fall out of the sky... Yall act like its some random hate that stems from nothing...

Ive supported Ayton since we drafted him. I still to this day argue i would take him over Doncic.

I watch every suns game. And from the time we drafted him til now my opinion has changed over time.

I went from over the moon about drafting him to hoping he would improve to hoping next years the year to being critical of his motor and effort.

The tools and potential are still there. I m still hoping next year is the year... But the hope is running thin.

Being critical of a player you want to see succeed is not hate.

Alot of us are just giving you our honest opinions on DA from what we have seen.

And If Ayton changes his tune and plays hard no1 will be happier than us.

You dont have the privilege of saying just wait and see what he can do next season he will prove u all wrong!

Because if he does get his head in the game and play well... Thats exactly what I wanted.

And if he plays with piss poor effort again... Well I dont want to be right about that either...

Dude 100% needs to get his ish together and every1 on every side of the DA argument should agree on that.

<3

[SlovenianDragon]

I dont get some DA supporters... I want to see DA succeed more than you do. You seem comfortable just the way he is...I want to see him untap that potential I know hes got. Go beast mode and fight on both ends of the court...

The argument about Aytons worth ethic and mental didn't just fall out of the sky... Yall act like its some random hate that stems from nothing...

Ive supported Ayton since we drafted him. I still to this day argue i would take him over Doncic.

I watch every suns game. And from the time we drafted him til now my opinion has changed over time.

I went from over the moon about drafting him to hoping he would improve to hoping next years the year to being critical of his motor and effort.

The tools and potential are still there. I m still hoping next year is the year... But the hope is running thin.

Being critical of a player you want to see succeed is not hate.

Alot of us are just giving you our honest opinions on DA from what we have seen.

And If Ayton changes his tune and plays hard no1 will be happier than us.

You dont have the privilege of saying just wait and see what he can do next season he will prove u all wrong!

Because if he does get his head in the game and play well... Thats exactly what I wanted.

And if he plays with piss poor effort again... Well I dont want to be right about that either...

Dude 100% needs to get his ish together and every1 on every side of the DA argument should agree on that.

<3

I dont like ball hogs that cant make the playoffs because they cant play off-ball... What can i Say?

Basketball is a team sport and Doncic doesnt have it.

He can get his personal stats but what does that matter?

Luka is the most overrated player in the league... Theres a reason he has been a first round exit twice and failed to make the playoffs. Even when our series went 7 games all they achieved was getting their butts clapped by GS.

Ayton has never lost in the first round... Booker has never lost in the first round...

Doncic is a career loser so far. And his stats mean nothing to me....

Same way Aytons stats mean nothing... Just give some effort.

[KdoubleDees23]

I dont get some DA supporters... I want to see DA succeed more than you do. You seem comfortable just the way he is...I want to see him untap that potential I know hes got. Go beast mode and fight on both ends of the court...

The argument about Aytons worth ethic and mental didn't just fall out of the sky... Yall act like its some random hate that stems from nothing...

Ive supported Ayton since we drafted him. I still to this day argue i would take him over Doncic.

I watch every suns game. And from the time we drafted him til now my opinion has changed over time.

I went from over the moon about drafting him to hoping he would improve to hoping next years the year to being critical of his motor and effort.

The tools and potential are still there. I m still hoping next year is the year... But the hope is running thin.

Being critical of a player you want to see succeed is not hate.

Alot of us are just giving you our honest opinions on DA from what we have seen.

And If Ayton changes his tune and plays hard no1 will be happier than us.

You dont have the privilege of saying just wait and see what he can do next season he will prove u all wrong!

Because if he does get his head in the game and play well... Thats exactly what I wanted.

And if he plays with piss poor effort again... Well I dont want to be right about that either...

Dude 100% needs to get his ish together and every1 on every side of the DA argument should agree on that.

<3

I would take Doncic 100% of the time but tbh I think taking Doncic pushes booker to leave. Doncic wouldn’t have the usage and may have not developed into what he is. Or if he did , that may take away from booker and he may have asked for a trade

[darealjuice]

Lol that Ayton sequence still cracks me up dude was already standing out of bounds waiting for the ball

[sashaturiaf]

If Ayton has the blues from feeling unloved, I suggest he register for a realGM account and read some of the defenses of him here

He didn't contest a shot cus he could have hit his head on the backboard ..... That's all time

[enigmatics]

If Ayton has the blues from feeling unloved, I suggest he register for a realGM account and read some of the defenses of him here

He didn't contest a shot cus he could have hit his head on the backboard ..... That's all time

Nevermind the fact that Jokic can barely jump and Ayton has a 7'6 wingspan vs. Joker's 7'3. Ayton just needs to be over there getting his hands up (verticality).

Like WTF are we even talking about lol, but that's where we are at now after 5 years in dudes are afraid for his safety from hitting his head on a backboard.

Even I have more respect for him than to think he'd ever be capable of something so ridiculous.

[Frank Lee]

Silly to focus on one play when DA has a whole body of work. DA and the rest of the world expected Jocic to tip that bunny in…. Not to miss twice

DA needs to get ‘his mind right’ and drop this woe is me routine.

Watch on YouTube

[bwgood77]

That particular play was blown out of proportion as he was out of bounds on the other side of the basket. All he could have done is foul Jokic. Had he tried to jump to get the ball he would have either hit his head on the rim or jumped right into Jokic.

Respectfully this response is hard to even fathom.

He literally watched for 3+ seconds. Hitting his head on the backboard is not something dude should be worrying about - he should be running his ass over there even if it's to box out and at least TRY to make Jokic's life just a little harder. That's called efforting, especially considering it was the darn playoffs, not the regular season - the playoffs.

The sequence is virtually indefensible. Dude overplayed the weakside help and literally drifted off into basketball ether because IMO either he didn't really care, he was gassed (which has been happening a lot if you watch him), or both.

Read on Twitter

Well there is no way he could have gotten back by the time Jokic tried the first tip, and after the quick second tip, when the rebound is up for grabs he does get in there and Jokic misses. Regardless, it was still widely blown out of proportion. He tried to block the shot, then he got back in and swiped at the ball eventually and Jokic ended up missing. They didn't even score on the play..and he did try and block and eventually got back in the play. Those were very quick tip back tries. He could have done something more maybe but you also risk foul if you try somehow to jump for a rebound from there or immediately box him out, but it was quick. But anyway, he chased own the original attempt, jumping up trying to disrupt it, and eventually got back into the play swiping and Jokic ended up missing and we got the ball.

[bigfoot]

The chick-fil-a fowl shot is nice and everything when a opponent misses two free throws in the fourth. The whole 1-2-3 thing on a made three pointer is another in-game crowd booster. Wishbia and his marketing gurus need to partner with sponsors to come up with rebound, block, and dunk metrics for fan rewards. Anything to figure out how to motivate Ayton to do something so fans will like him.

[bwgood77]

I dont get some DA supporters... I want to see DA succeed more than you do. You seem comfortable just the way he is...I want to see him untap that potential I know hes got. Go beast mode and fight on both ends of the court...

The argument about Aytons worth ethic and mental didn't just fall out of the sky... Yall act like its some random hate that stems from nothing...

Ive supported Ayton since we drafted him. I still to this day argue i would take him over Doncic.

I watch every suns game. And from the time we drafted him til now my opinion has changed over time.

I went from over the moon about drafting him to hoping he would improve to hoping next years the year to being critical of his motor and effort.

The tools and potential are still there. I m still hoping next year is the year... But the hope is running thin.

Being critical of a player you want to see succeed is not hate.

Alot of us are just giving you our honest opinions on DA from what we have seen.

And If Ayton changes his tune and plays hard no1 will be happier than us.

You dont have the privilege of saying just wait and see what he can do next season he will prove u all wrong!

Because if he does get his head in the game and play well... Thats exactly what I wanted.

And if he plays with piss poor effort again... Well I dont want to be right about that either...

Dude 100% needs to get his ish together and every1 on every side of the DA argument should agree on that.

<3

As for me personally, I wasn't happy with his overall play this last season. I think there were some reasons the play was not as good, defensively, etc, because of all the injuries, level of teammates much of the season, changing lineups.

But his effort can be better at times. I want to see that. As I've said, I think he overthinks. Paralysis by analysis. I do think information overload makes this happen...and I think while Paul helped him, sometimes it also made him overthink. I do think effort can be better but also think sometimes he is freezing while overthinking.

His play was more instinctual. I was his biggest complainer as a rookie, often pissing many people off because his defense was atrocious.

But he DID work hard and improve his D dramatically the next two years and his shooting from inside the arc improved considerably his 4th, though he had a bit of defensive regression.

While there have always been times I think his effort and motor could have been better, he was a pretty nice two way player overall in years 2-4 with some of those things you can complain about.

Everything suffered this season, defense, offense, rebounding to an extent. Was it just him deciding to try less or was it more challenging with all the team injuries? I really don't think he is just deciding not to try. The lineups, level of teammates, his role being greater a chunk of the season, then way lesser with KD, etc, and he does have mental lapses.

I think he will always have lapses. I do hope Vogel recognizes that he is overthinking and tells him to play more instinctually...don't think as much..just do...trust your instinct...you will make mistakes but keep going...mistakes are ok. I really think he needs to hear that and have it pounded into his head. Maybe he has been told that but it seems like he more hears all the things he needs to do during a game and starts thinking too much.

But of course I want him to play better and am not just completely happy with how he played. I was very happy with his progression in years 2 and 3. In 4 I liked his offensive (shooting) progression (I'm not one expecting him to develop some great handle and create shots all the time)....BUT I DID mention and was concerned about his defensive regression.

And was not happy with his play this season overall, even though he did have a lot of good games and stretches. Though I was not happy with a number of player's play at times as well.

I expect him to be better if we are healthier and with a new coach, but I still expect some times he will have those mental lapses and overthinking and the pitchforks will come out, but that's just the way it is. I knew what type of player he was when we drafted him. I didn't want him, but was really happy with his overall progression a few years into his career, and his shooting in year 4, but feel he needs to get back to where he was defensively. A slight improvement on rebounding would be nice but I am happy he's been at double digits every year at 29-30 mpg. The year he averaged 32.5 mpg he averaged 11.5 rpg.

[Jdiddy701]

I dont get some DA supporters... I want to see DA succeed more than you do. You seem comfortable just the way he is...I want to see him untap that potential I know hes got. Go beast mode and fight on both ends of the court...

The argument about Aytons worth ethic and mental didn't just fall out of the sky... Yall act like its some random hate that stems from nothing...

Ive supported Ayton since we drafted him. I still to this day argue i would take him over Doncic.

I watch every suns game. And from the time we drafted him til now my opinion has changed over time.

I went from over the moon about drafting him to hoping he would improve to hoping next years the year to being critical of his motor and effort.

The tools and potential are still there. I m still hoping next year is the year... But the hope is running thin.

Being critical of a player you want to see succeed is not hate.

Alot of us are just giving you our honest opinions on DA from what we have seen.

And If Ayton changes his tune and plays hard no1 will be happier than us.

You dont have the privilege of saying just wait and see what he can do next season he will prove u all wrong!

Because if he does get his head in the game and play well... Thats exactly what I wanted.

And if he plays with piss poor effort again... Well I dont want to be right about that either...

Dude 100% needs to get his ish together and every1 on every side of the DA argument should agree on that.

<3

As for me personally, I wasn't happy with his overall play this last season. I think there were some reasons the play was not as good, defensively, etc, because of all the injuries, level of teammates much of the season, changing lineups.

But his effort can be better at times. I want to see that. As I've said, I think he overthinks. Paralysis by analysis. I do think information overload makes this happen...and I think while Paul helped him, sometimes it also made him overthink. I do think effort can be better but also think sometimes he is freezing while overthinking.

His play was more instinctual. I was his biggest complainer as a rookie, often pissing many people off because his defense was atrocious.

But he DID work hard and improve his D dramatically the next two years and his shooting from inside the arc improved considerably his 4th, though he had a bit of defensive regression.

While there have always been times I think his effort and motor could have been better, he was a pretty nice two way player overall in years 2-4 with some of those things you can complain about.

Everything suffered this season, defense, offense, rebounding to an extent. Was it just him deciding to try less or was it more challenging with all the team injuries? I really don't think he is just deciding not to try. The lineups, level of teammates, his role being greater a chunk of the season, then way lesser with KD, etc, and he does have mental lapses.

I think he will always have lapses. I do hope Vogel recognizes that he is overthinking and tells him to play more instinctually...don't think as much..just do...trust your instinct...you will make mistakes but keep going...mistakes are ok. I really think he needs to hear that and have it pounded into his head. Maybe he has been told that but it seems like he more hears all the things he needs to do during a game and starts thinking too much.

But of course I want him to play better and am not just completely happy with how he played. I was very happy with his progression in years 2 and 3. In 4 I liked his offensive (shooting) progression (I'm not one expecting him to develop some great handle and create shots all the time)....BUT I DID mention and was concerned about his defensive regression.

And was not happy with his play this season overall, even though he did have a lot of good games and stretches. Though I was not happy with a number of player's play at times as well.

I expect him to be better if we are healthier and with a new coach, but I still expect some times he will have those mental lapses and overthinking and the pitchforks will come out, but that's just the way it is. I knew what type of player he was when we drafted him. I didn't want him, but was really happy with his overall regression a few years into his career, and his shooting in year 4, but feel he needs to get back to where he was defensively. A slight improvement on rebounding would be nice but I am happy he's been at double digits every year at 29-30 mpg. The year he averaged 32.5 mpg he averaged 11.5 rpg.

I do agree that key players being out throughout the season made him play worse but honestly, those are the times I actually expect him to rise his game even more, especially for a max level type player. I remember Mikal struggled at first but then started to figure it out - Ayton did not and that was pretty telling imo.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[bwgood77]

I dont get some DA supporters... I want to see DA succeed more than you do. You seem comfortable just the way he is...I want to see him untap that potential I know hes got. Go beast mode and fight on both ends of the court...

The argument about Aytons worth ethic and mental didn't just fall out of the sky... Yall act like its some random hate that stems from nothing...

Ive supported Ayton since we drafted him. I still to this day argue i would take him over Doncic.

I watch every suns game. And from the time we drafted him til now my opinion has changed over time.

I went from over the moon about drafting him to hoping he would improve to hoping next years the year to being critical of his motor and effort.

The tools and potential are still there. I m still hoping next year is the year... But the hope is running thin.

Being critical of a player you want to see succeed is not hate.

Alot of us are just giving you our honest opinions on DA from what we have seen.

And If Ayton changes his tune and plays hard no1 will be happier than us.

You dont have the privilege of saying just wait and see what he can do next season he will prove u all wrong!

Because if he does get his head in the game and play well... Thats exactly what I wanted.

And if he plays with piss poor effort again... Well I dont want to be right about that either...

Dude 100% needs to get his ish together and every1 on every side of the DA argument should agree on that.

<3

As for me personally, I wasn't happy with his overall play this last season. I think there were some reasons the play was not as good, defensively, etc, because of all the injuries, level of teammates much of the season, changing lineups.

But his effort can be better at times. I want to see that. As I've said, I think he overthinks. Paralysis by analysis. I do think information overload makes this happen...and I think while Paul helped him, sometimes it also made him overthink. I do think effort can be better but also think sometimes he is freezing while overthinking.

His play was more instinctual. I was his biggest complainer as a rookie, often pissing many people off because his defense was atrocious.

But he DID work hard and improve his D dramatically the next two years and his shooting from inside the arc improved considerably his 4th, though he had a bit of defensive regression.

While there have always been times I think his effort and motor could have been better, he was a pretty nice two way player overall in years 2-4 with some of those things you can complain about.

Everything suffered this season, defense, offense, rebounding to an extent. Was it just him deciding to try less or was it more challenging with all the team injuries? I really don't think he is just deciding not to try. The lineups, level of teammates, his role being greater a chunk of the season, then way lesser with KD, etc, and he does have mental lapses.

I think he will always have lapses. I do hope Vogel recognizes that he is overthinking and tells him to play more instinctually...don't think as much..just do...trust your instinct...you will make mistakes but keep going...mistakes are ok. I really think he needs to hear that and have it pounded into his head. Maybe he has been told that but it seems like he more hears all the things he needs to do during a game and starts thinking too much.

But of course I want him to play better and am not just completely happy with how he played. I was very happy with his progression in years 2 and 3. In 4 I liked his offensive (shooting) progression (I'm not one expecting him to develop some great handle and create shots all the time)....BUT I DID mention and was concerned about his defensive regression.

And was not happy with his play this season overall, even though he did have a lot of good games and stretches. Though I was not happy with a number of player's play at times as well.

I expect him to be better if we are healthier and with a new coach, but I still expect some times he will have those mental lapses and overthinking and the pitchforks will come out, but that's just the way it is. I knew what type of player he was when we drafted him. I didn't want him, but was really happy with his overall regression a few years into his career, and his shooting in year 4, but feel he needs to get back to where he was defensively. A slight improvement on rebounding would be nice but I am happy he's been at double digits every year at 29-30 mpg. The year he averaged 32.5 mpg he averaged 11.5 rpg.

I do agree that key players being out throughout the season made him play worse but honestly, those are the times I actually expect him to rise his game even more, especially for a max level type player. I remember Mikal struggled at first but then started to figure it out - Ayton did not and that was pretty telling imo.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

He actually did. In February he really stepped it up. Some players started to come back, but I he in particular should not be a co #1 option. I am under no illusion he should be. He does need better guards than than the ones who played when Paul, Book, Payne and Shamet were all out. But in Feb he averaged like 23 and over 10 rpg on like 70% TS%.

His play did take a bit of a downturn once Bridges was gone and KD got there though but his shots also dropped from like 10-20 to 4-9.

But if we stay healthy and he gets used to the new players and playing with them, it should help, but I think they should try to find him on offense when he's open, with high passes and not ones through traffic which obviously are more likely to get deflected or have the opposition get their hands on them. He does need to hold on to the ball a bit better though, and keep it up higher, though his turnovers overall were not as high as many may think.

[Fo-Real]

Automatically scroll past when people are arguing with each other and there is just compounded walls of text.

[sunskerr]

Automatically scroll past when people are arguing with each other and there is just compounded walls of text.

this is probably more for you then www.reddit.com/r/suns

[garrick]

As for me personally, I wasn't happy with his overall play this last season. I think there were some reasons the play was not as good, defensively, etc, because of all the injuries, level of teammates much of the season, changing lineups.

But his effort can be better at times. I want to see that. As I've said, I think he overthinks. Paralysis by analysis. I do think information overload makes this happen...and I think while Paul helped him, sometimes it also made him overthink. I do think effort can be better but also think sometimes he is freezing while overthinking.

His play was more instinctual. I was his biggest complainer as a rookie, often pissing many people off because his defense was atrocious.

But he DID work hard and improve his D dramatically the next two years and his shooting from inside the arc improved considerably his 4th, though he had a bit of defensive regression.

While there have always been times I think his effort and motor could have been better, he was a pretty nice two way player overall in years 2-4 with some of those things you can complain about.

Everything suffered this season, defense, offense, rebounding to an extent. Was it just him deciding to try less or was it more challenging with all the team injuries? I really don't think he is just deciding not to try. The lineups, level of teammates, his role being greater a chunk of the season, then way lesser with KD, etc, and he does have mental lapses.

I think he will always have lapses. I do hope Vogel recognizes that he is overthinking and tells him to play more instinctually...don't think as much..just do...trust your instinct...you will make mistakes but keep going...mistakes are ok. I really think he needs to hear that and have it pounded into his head. Maybe he has been told that but it seems like he more hears all the things he needs to do during a game and starts thinking too much.

But of course I want him to play better and am not just completely happy with how he played. I was very happy with his progression in years 2 and 3. In 4 I liked his offensive (shooting) progression (I'm not one expecting him to develop some great handle and create shots all the time)....BUT I DID mention and was concerned about his defensive regression.

And was not happy with his play this season overall, even though he did have a lot of good games and stretches. Though I was not happy with a number of player's play at times as well.

I expect him to be better if we are healthier and with a new coach, but I still expect some times he will have those mental lapses and overthinking and the pitchforks will come out, but that's just the way it is. I knew what type of player he was when we drafted him. I didn't want him, but was really happy with his overall regression a few years into his career, and his shooting in year 4, but feel he needs to get back to where he was defensively. A slight improvement on rebounding would be nice but I am happy he's been at double digits every year at 29-30 mpg. The year he averaged 32.5 mpg he averaged 11.5 rpg.

I do agree that key players being out throughout the season made him play worse but honestly, those are the times I actually expect him to rise his game even more, especially for a max level type player. I remember Mikal struggled at first but then started to figure it out - Ayton did not and that was pretty telling imo.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

He actually did. In February he really stepped it up. Some players started to come back, but I he in particular should not be a co #1 option. I am under no illusion he should be. He does need better guards than than the ones who played when Paul, Book, Payne and Shamet were all out. But in Feb he averaged like 23 and over 10 rpg on like 70% TS%.

His play did take a bit of a downturn once Bridges was gone and KD got there though but his shots also dropped from like 10-20 to 4-9.

But if we stay healthy and he gets used to the new players and playing with them, it should help, but I think they should try to find him on offense when he's open, with high passes and not ones through traffic which obviously are more likely to get deflected or have the opposition get their hands on them. He does need to hold on to the ball a bit better though, and keep it up higher, though his turnovers overall were not as high as many may think.

One part of his game I would really like to see him improve is getting to the foul line.

I like that he has a finesse game but when those shots aren't falling he needs to find a way to create contact or just power through it and finish, the Denver series he just had some wide open shots Denver was giving him and he just missed a few he normally makes.

As you said it seems like he overthinks too much and tries to make the "correct" play without just playing instinctually so I hope Vogel gives him the green light and lets him play a little more free on offense.

[lilfishi22]

The funny thing is, we don't pile on him for this one play, you can basketballsplain us all away as much as you want. Fact is this is a constant theme that's seen not exclusive to this board. Even facebook casuals see how low energy this dude can be.

Didn't he have 3 fouls already at this point? That was what I thought.

Lord have mercy. I wouldnt let 4 fouls stop me from chasing a rebound, its not like this guy is dennis rodman tangling dudes up on his way for his 17th rebound.

It was 1 foul at that point. Didn't pick up his second until 12s left in the first half

[KdoubleDees23]

If Ayton has the blues from feeling unloved, I suggest he register for a realGM account and read some of the defenses of him here

He didn't contest a shot cus he could have hit his head on the backboard ..... That's all time

Nah all these suns fans on here are haters lol. They hate everyone on the suns minus booker

[sunsbum]

Didn't he have 3 fouls already at this point? That was what I thought.

Lord have mercy. I wouldnt let 4 fouls stop me from chasing a rebound, its not like this guy is dennis rodman tangling dudes up on his way for his 17th rebound.

It was 1 foul at that point. Didn't pick up his second until 12s left in the first half

Private eye lilfishi on the case!
You know, I will say I find it kind of funny but mostly ironic that all the Ayton sympathizers keep chortling about how he can avg 23/12/2 if (insert excuse or alternate reality) when the "Ayton haters" always say... you know we don't really give a **** about numbers to an extent. Like if he gives us a high energy 14/11/1.5 with good defense we'd be pretty damn happy. Basically for them its about numbers, for us its about effort but that seems to fly miles over their heads

[sunsbum]

If Ayton has the blues from feeling unloved, I suggest he register for a realGM account and read some of the defenses of him here

He didn't contest a shot cus he could have hit his head on the backboard ..... That's all time

Nah all these suns fans on here are haters lol. They hate everyone on the suns minus booker

At this point we've only seen KD/Book and Ayton play on this team... KD got PLENTY of **** last p/o and even booker to an extent when he had his duds. Maybe we can all get a gofundme together and send DA some flowers to cheer him up?