Official Scottie Barnes Thread - Part 5

[tripa]

Oh god please dont mention Walker Kessler, youll set off an avalanche of boring posts

[tripa]

Also Scottie Barnes at #3 is crazy talk, even for homers like us. Stop it.

[Tha Cynic]

My list:

1. Victor Wembanyama - Generational/MVP
2. Scoot Henderson - Franchise player/perennial all-star
3. Scottie Barnes - (lots of developmental question marks but high high ceiling if actualized. Can either have MVP impact or become a high end role player) - Franchise player/perennial all-star
4. Cade Cunningham - Franchise player/perennial all-star (better than I thought he would be. Will be dangerous if he can keep his long range jumper consistent. Has that dog in him).
5. Evan Mobley - DPOY (I’ve never seen a big man so young play defence so well all over the court. Most versatile big man defender since KG. Shuts down the perimeter on switches. Stifles drives. Blocks jumpers and weakside finishing. Third offensive option potential. If he was more assertive offensively he’d be number 2 on this list.)
6. Paolo Banchero - All NBA ceiling (lots of talent and physical gifts. Makes it look easy. Isn’t assertive/hungry enough to score in the clutch.)
7. Jalen Williams - All NBA ceiling (does everything well and has that dog in him. Will surprise people by year 4 if not sooner)
8. Franz Wagner - All Star ceiling (has all the tools, but not sure he has a franchise player mentality. Insanely good for his age and experience)
9. Keegan Murray - All Star and second option (underrated. Super charged Michael Redd with more efficiency and IQ. Will develop playmaking chops as he gets older as he has shown flashes)
10. Trey Murphy the 3rd - All Star caliber (lethal shooter, very athletic…needs a bit more off the dribble but not sure he gets there)
11. Walker Kessler - DPOY and anchor on a contending team
12. Chet Holmgren - All defence. Only won’t be DPOY cuz of Mobley and Kessler.
13. Jalen Green - All Star (insane scoring instincts and ability but does nothing else. Needs to prove he can play within the flow of a system)
14. Austin Reaves - High end Starter (only thing holding him back is beating athletic defenders off the dribble. Great stepback game from deep, midrange pull up, and can facilitate. Better defender than he’s given credit for. Clutch and plays with fire.)
15. Jaden Ivey - High end Starter (not super high ceiling in my opinion but should be a very useful player and a starter at his position on every team that doesn’t have an all star already at his position)

You’re really high on these guys, wow lol.

I hope this comes to fruition cause the NBA would be in good hands lol.

It’s all relative to other talent in the league in my mind. The old guard is fading away and the new guys are coming in. None of those guys on the list have played their third season yet and I think most of them are really good. In my mind there’s a clear drop off after Kessler though.

I might end up looking like a genius or a fool in a couple years haha. But I’m confident. The obvious caveat is there are guys who aren’t in the league yet who in my opinion will move everyone after Scoot down the list. That’s to say that I think Wemby and Scoot are true superstar talents. The other guys…well we will see haha.

I agree with you in terms of the comparison to the rest of the league. The big thing here is that this list of guys has a lot of players who can do multiple things and are just better body archetypes. We have a lot of pretenders who are guards masquerading as stars right now, who imo aren't as good as their counting stats in terms of team impact.

This list has a lot of guys who have a chance of being very impact players. I think the Cade Cunningham draft has a bunch of guys who really haven't separated themselves, but the best i have seen from Barnes has been better than the best from anyone from his draft class. Obviously that best needs to be reached consistently, but again no one has done that yet. I think you have to put Banchero above him in terms of pure skillset but I think the IQ lags behind and that's where Barnes can make up where Banchero is clearly better in terms of overall skill right now.

[HiJiNX]

You’re really high on these guys, wow lol.

I hope this comes to fruition cause the NBA would be in good hands lol.

It’s all relative to other talent in the league in my mind. The old guard is fading away and the new guys are coming in. None of those guys on the list have played their third season yet and I think most of them are really good. In my mind there’s a clear drop off after Kessler though.

I might end up looking like a genius or a fool in a couple years haha. But I’m confident. The obvious caveat is there are guys who aren’t in the league yet who in my opinion will move everyone after Scoot down the list. That’s to say that I think Wemby and Scoot are true superstar talents. The other guys…well we will see haha.

I agree with you in terms of the comparison to the rest of the league. The big thing here is that this list of guys has a lot of players who can do multiple things and are just better body archetypes. We have a lot of pretenders who are guards masquerading as stars right now, who imo aren't as good as their counting stats in terms of team impact.

This list has a lot of guys who have a chance of being very impact players. I think the Cade Cunningham draft has a bunch of guys who really haven't separated themselves, but the best i have seen from Barnes has been better than the best from anyone from his draft class. Obviously that best needs to be reached consistently, but again no one has done that yet. I think you have to put Banchero above him in terms of pure skillset but I think the IQ lags behind and that's where Barnes can make up where Banchero is clearly better in terms of overall skill right now.

Agreed 100%.

Having been around basketball as much as I have in my life I think I rate some intangible qualities much higher than most in my player evaluations. That’s why I rate a guy like Barnes so highly—his resume in terms of intangibles is pretty impressive:

-extremely long
-great open court speed
-excellent second jump and offensive rebounding instinct
-obviously sees the court very well and makes passes into tight pockets. He throws players open. Almost always puts players into an advantageous position with his passes. Can make the obvious pass or the unexpected pass.
-understands the pass that leads to a pass
-excellent free safety on D
-very big shoulders and very strong. Probably one of the strongest forwards in the league and he hasn’t hit his physical prime yet.

But more important than the above for me are what he’s shown with performances and attitude:

-multiple fourth quarter takeover moments
-has shown up huge against KD, Lebron, the Bucks and Brook Lopez (DPOY), Jokic, JJJ (DPOY), bullied Sabonis twice as a rookie, etc.
-he’s not scared of anybody on the court and tends to play better against marquee competition
-plays harder than anybody else on the court when it’s winning time
-has shown the ability to shift the momentum of a game over a three of four minute stretch of making plays on both ends, all over the court
-makes clutch FTs

So while Barnes needs to be more consistent with his engagement and develop some skills, he’s shown that he can play at a high level in high leverage situations. If he doesn’t get better than he is now he’s still an elite role player but given his intelligence and desire to win, it’s hard to see how he doesn’t get better.

Then you look at a guy like Banchero who is even more physically gifted than Barnes (and most guys in the league—how many 6’10 guys are as fluid, explosive, coordinated and strong as Banchero?) with better skills and great IQ and it sounds like a franchise player in the making. Except for one thing. He sometimes goes deer in the headlights at the end of games or sometimes passes instead of trying to score. I don’t think this is an experience thing for him, but a mentality thing. Time will tell.

Now concerning a guy like Mobley, he’s a guy with a great skill profile on both ends at such a young age. He’s also a very fluid athlete with high basketball IQ on both ends. Great size and length too. So what’s the issue? He’s not very explosive but whatever, that can be overcome. The bigger issue with him is he just doesn’t want to be the guy. When his team needs a bucket he’s not a guy who demands the ball so he can make a play. If he had that then you’re looking at a superstar, but he doesn’t and that’s not the sort of thing guys usually develop. It’s almost always a thing that you either have or you don’t.

So yeah, I’m high on Barnes, because he has that thing. With the size, strength and IQ to go with it. Plus, he already has an elite skill and it happens to be a skill that makes everyone better. What he needs is better conditioning, shooting and dribbling. Mind you, he doesn’t need to be an elite shooter or ball handler, just pretty good. And those are skills that almost anybody can become pretty good at with practice. So that leaves the last thing—conditioning/engagement. The jury is still out on that and it does give me pause, but I’m willing to place my faith in him. Again, he seems like he wants it.

Why is that “thing” so important? Cuz when it really matters deep in the playoffs it’s the players with that thing that succeed and the guys who lack it that don’t. Barnes has that “thing” combined with elite size, above average athleticism, and an elite skill already. He just has to put in the work. But the possibility for greatness is there.

[HumbleRen]

Read on Twitter

?s=46&t=MEuibcMU0ccRSFDhr5PZPA

[tripa]

Read on Twitter

?s=46&t=MEuibcMU0ccRSFDhr5PZPA

Seems like a pretty useless stat if you go down the list. Not sure why they even tweeted this.

[Thaddy]

Watch on YouTube

[Raps in 4]

Read on Twitter

?s=46&t=MEuibcMU0ccRSFDhr5PZPA

The fact that Lebron, Giannis and Tatum are right there makes this a useless stat.

[Los_29]

It’s all relative to other talent in the league in my mind. The old guard is fading away and the new guys are coming in. None of those guys on the list have played their third season yet and I think most of them are really good. In my mind there’s a clear drop off after Kessler though.

I might end up looking like a genius or a fool in a couple years haha. But I’m confident. The obvious caveat is there are guys who aren’t in the league yet who in my opinion will move everyone after Scoot down the list. That’s to say that I think Wemby and Scoot are true superstar talents. The other guys…well we will see haha.

I agree with you in terms of the comparison to the rest of the league. The big thing here is that this list of guys has a lot of players who can do multiple things and are just better body archetypes. We have a lot of pretenders who are guards masquerading as stars right now, who imo aren't as good as their counting stats in terms of team impact.

This list has a lot of guys who have a chance of being very impact players. I think the Cade Cunningham draft has a bunch of guys who really haven't separated themselves, but the best i have seen from Barnes has been better than the best from anyone from his draft class. Obviously that best needs to be reached consistently, but again no one has done that yet. I think you have to put Banchero above him in terms of pure skillset but I think the IQ lags behind and that's where Barnes can make up where Banchero is clearly better in terms of overall skill right now.

Agreed 100%.

Having been around basketball as much as I have in my life I think I rate some intangible qualities much higher than most in my player evaluations. That’s why I rate a guy like Barnes so highly—his resume in terms of intangibles is pretty impressive:

-extremely long
-great open court speed
-excellent second jump and offensive rebounding instinct
-obviously sees the court very well and makes passes into tight pockets. He throws players open. Almost always puts players into an advantageous position with his passes. Can make the obvious pass or the unexpected pass.
-understands the pass that leads to a pass
-excellent free safety on D
-very big shoulders and very strong. Probably one of the strongest forwards in the league and he hasn’t hit his physical prime yet.

But more important than the above for me are what he’s shown with performances and attitude:

-multiple fourth quarter takeover moments
-has shown up huge against KD, Lebron, the Bucks and Brook Lopez (DPOY), Jokic, JJJ (DPOY), bullied Sabonis twice as a rookie, etc.
-he’s not scared of anybody on the court and tends to play better against marquee competition
-plays harder than anybody else on the court when it’s winning time
-has shown the ability to shift the momentum of a game over a three of four minute stretch of making plays on both ends, all over the court
-makes clutch FTs

So while Barnes needs to be more consistent with his engagement and develop some skills, he’s shown that he can play at a high level in high leverage situations. If he doesn’t get better than he is now he’s still an elite role player but given his intelligence and desire to win, it’s hard to see how he doesn’t get better.

Then you look at a guy like Banchero who is even more physically gifted than Barnes (and most guys in the league—how many 6’10 guys are as fluid, explosive, coordinated and strong as Banchero?) with better skills and great IQ and it sounds like a franchise player in the making. Except for one thing. He sometimes goes deer in the headlights at the end of games or sometimes passes instead of trying to score. I don’t think this is an experience thing for him, but a mentality thing. Time will tell.

Now concerning a guy like Mobley, he’s a guy with a great skill profile on both ends at such a young age. He’s also a very fluid athlete with high basketball IQ on both ends. Great size and length too. So what’s the issue? He’s not very explosive but whatever, that can be overcome. The bigger issue with him is he just doesn’t want to be the guy. When his team needs a bucket he’s not a guy who demands the ball so he can make a play. If he had that then you’re looking at a superstar, but he doesn’t and that’s not the sort of thing guys usually develop. It’s almost always a thing that you either have or you don’t.

So yeah, I’m high on Barnes, because he has that thing. With the size, strength and IQ to go with it. Plus, he already has an elite skill and it happens to be a skill that makes everyone better. What he needs is better conditioning, shooting and dribbling. Mind you, he doesn’t need to be an elite shooter or ball handler, just pretty good. And those are skills that almost anybody can become pretty good at with practice. So that leaves the last thing—conditioning/engagement. The jury is still out on that and it does give me pause, but I’m willing to place my faith in him. Again, he seems like he wants it.

Why is that “thing” so important? Cuz when it really matters deep in the playoffs it’s the players with that thing that succeed and the guys who lack it that don’t. Barnes has that “thing” combined with elite size, above average athleticism, and an elite skill already. He just has to put in the work. But the possibility for greatness is there.

I agree with a lot of things you said. Scottie has excellent size, good athleticism, defensive versatility and processes the game well. Even if he never develops that jumper, he’s going to be a solid player in this league. If that jumper develops then we are going to be in good shape.

We do need to tone it down a bit though. Lol. Can we honestly say he plays harder than anyone else when it comes to winning time? That is an incredibly bold statement especially for a guy that has had questions about his motor/effort.

[WaltFrazier]

Read on Twitter

Scottie is a big Team USA guy and won't be happy being excluded (if this list is accurate). Will give him more motivation this season to force the issue.

More names added, Scottie still shut out. Perplexing

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?s=20

[ArthurVandelay]

Read on Twitter

Scottie is a big Team USA guy and won't be happy being excluded (if this list is accurate). Will give him more motivation this season to force the issue.

More names added, Scottie still shut out. Perplexing

Read on Twitter

?s=20

Could be he declined an invite. He’s not going to play on senior men’s national team at this point. Team USA know who he is. He competed in every junior championship for them. Maybe he’s really focusing on his off-season training mode this coming season? I really don’t know, just suggesting an alternative. Everyone knows how important this upcoming season is for him. Fingers crossed this hypothesis is correct.

[HumbleRen]

Mobley hasn’t been “invited” so Scottie and Mobley have most likely declined.

[HiJiNX]

I agree with you in terms of the comparison to the rest of the league. The big thing here is that this list of guys has a lot of players who can do multiple things and are just better body archetypes. We have a lot of pretenders who are guards masquerading as stars right now, who imo aren't as good as their counting stats in terms of team impact.

This list has a lot of guys who have a chance of being very impact players. I think the Cade Cunningham draft has a bunch of guys who really haven't separated themselves, but the best i have seen from Barnes has been better than the best from anyone from his draft class. Obviously that best needs to be reached consistently, but again no one has done that yet. I think you have to put Banchero above him in terms of pure skillset but I think the IQ lags behind and that's where Barnes can make up where Banchero is clearly better in terms of overall skill right now.

Agreed 100%.

Having been around basketball as much as I have in my life I think I rate some intangible qualities much higher than most in my player evaluations. That’s why I rate a guy like Barnes so highly—his resume in terms of intangibles is pretty impressive:

-extremely long
-great open court speed
-excellent second jump and offensive rebounding instinct
-obviously sees the court very well and makes passes into tight pockets. He throws players open. Almost always puts players into an advantageous position with his passes. Can make the obvious pass or the unexpected pass.
-understands the pass that leads to a pass
-excellent free safety on D
-very big shoulders and very strong. Probably one of the strongest forwards in the league and he hasn’t hit his physical prime yet.

But more important than the above for me are what he’s shown with performances and attitude:

-multiple fourth quarter takeover moments
-has shown up huge against KD, Lebron, the Bucks and Brook Lopez (DPOY), Jokic, JJJ (DPOY), bullied Sabonis twice as a rookie, etc.
-he’s not scared of anybody on the court and tends to play better against marquee competition
-plays harder than anybody else on the court when it’s winning time
-has shown the ability to shift the momentum of a game over a three of four minute stretch of making plays on both ends, all over the court
-makes clutch FTs

So while Barnes needs to be more consistent with his engagement and develop some skills, he’s shown that he can play at a high level in high leverage situations. If he doesn’t get better than he is now he’s still an elite role player but given his intelligence and desire to win, it’s hard to see how he doesn’t get better.

Then you look at a guy like Banchero who is even more physically gifted than Barnes (and most guys in the league—how many 6’10 guys are as fluid, explosive, coordinated and strong as Banchero?) with better skills and great IQ and it sounds like a franchise player in the making. Except for one thing. He sometimes goes deer in the headlights at the end of games or sometimes passes instead of trying to score. I don’t think this is an experience thing for him, but a mentality thing. Time will tell.

Now concerning a guy like Mobley, he’s a guy with a great skill profile on both ends at such a young age. He’s also a very fluid athlete with high basketball IQ on both ends. Great size and length too. So what’s the issue? He’s not very explosive but whatever, that can be overcome. The bigger issue with him is he just doesn’t want to be the guy. When his team needs a bucket he’s not a guy who demands the ball so he can make a play. If he had that then you’re looking at a superstar, but he doesn’t and that’s not the sort of thing guys usually develop. It’s almost always a thing that you either have or you don’t.

So yeah, I’m high on Barnes, because he has that thing. With the size, strength and IQ to go with it. Plus, he already has an elite skill and it happens to be a skill that makes everyone better. What he needs is better conditioning, shooting and dribbling. Mind you, he doesn’t need to be an elite shooter or ball handler, just pretty good. And those are skills that almost anybody can become pretty good at with practice. So that leaves the last thing—conditioning/engagement. The jury is still out on that and it does give me pause, but I’m willing to place my faith in him. Again, he seems like he wants it.

Why is that “thing” so important? Cuz when it really matters deep in the playoffs it’s the players with that thing that succeed and the guys who lack it that don’t. Barnes has that “thing” combined with elite size, above average athleticism, and an elite skill already. He just has to put in the work. But the possibility for greatness is there.

I agree with a lot of things you said. Scottie has excellent size, good athleticism, defensive versatility and processes the game well. Even if he never develops that jumper, he’s going to be a solid player in this league. If that jumper develops then we are going to be in good shape.

We do need to tone it down a bit though. Lol. Can we honestly say he plays harder than anyone else when it comes to winning time? That is an incredibly bold statement especially for a guy that has had questions about his motor/effort.

Hey man I have lots of questions about Barnes’ effort in terms of consistency throughout a game, but if the game is relatively close, he’s usually very engaged in the last five minutes of the 4th. Not every time of course, but most of the time. Maybe it’s all the energy he saves from coasting on the perimeter for three quarters.

[Son Goku 25]

Read on Twitter

?s=46&t=MEuibcMU0ccRSFDhr5PZPA

The fact that Lebron, Giannis and Tatum are right there makes this a useless stat.

Giannis and Scottie in close proximity can only be positive lol fr what a random stat. I'd look at it by narrowing down guards vs the bigs and you see some really good talent on there plus this boards poster boy Shaeden as well. Guards should be penalized more.

[Boogie!]

Agreed 100%.

Having been around basketball as much as I have in my life I think I rate some intangible qualities much higher than most in my player evaluations. That’s why I rate a guy like Barnes so highly—his resume in terms of intangibles is pretty impressive:

-extremely long
-great open court speed
-excellent second jump and offensive rebounding instinct
-obviously sees the court very well and makes passes into tight pockets. He throws players open. Almost always puts players into an advantageous position with his passes. Can make the obvious pass or the unexpected pass.
-understands the pass that leads to a pass
-excellent free safety on D
-very big shoulders and very strong. Probably one of the strongest forwards in the league and he hasn’t hit his physical prime yet.

But more important than the above for me are what he’s shown with performances and attitude:

-multiple fourth quarter takeover moments
-has shown up huge against KD, Lebron, the Bucks and Brook Lopez (DPOY), Jokic, JJJ (DPOY), bullied Sabonis twice as a rookie, etc.
-he’s not scared of anybody on the court and tends to play better against marquee competition
-plays harder than anybody else on the court when it’s winning time
-has shown the ability to shift the momentum of a game over a three of four minute stretch of making plays on both ends, all over the court
-makes clutch FTs

So while Barnes needs to be more consistent with his engagement and develop some skills, he’s shown that he can play at a high level in high leverage situations. If he doesn’t get better than he is now he’s still an elite role player but given his intelligence and desire to win, it’s hard to see how he doesn’t get better.

Then you look at a guy like Banchero who is even more physically gifted than Barnes (and most guys in the league—how many 6’10 guys are as fluid, explosive, coordinated and strong as Banchero?) with better skills and great IQ and it sounds like a franchise player in the making. Except for one thing. He sometimes goes deer in the headlights at the end of games or sometimes passes instead of trying to score. I don’t think this is an experience thing for him, but a mentality thing. Time will tell.

Now concerning a guy like Mobley, he’s a guy with a great skill profile on both ends at such a young age. He’s also a very fluid athlete with high basketball IQ on both ends. Great size and length too. So what’s the issue? He’s not very explosive but whatever, that can be overcome. The bigger issue with him is he just doesn’t want to be the guy. When his team needs a bucket he’s not a guy who demands the ball so he can make a play. If he had that then you’re looking at a superstar, but he doesn’t and that’s not the sort of thing guys usually develop. It’s almost always a thing that you either have or you don’t.

So yeah, I’m high on Barnes, because he has that thing. With the size, strength and IQ to go with it. Plus, he already has an elite skill and it happens to be a skill that makes everyone better. What he needs is better conditioning, shooting and dribbling. Mind you, he doesn’t need to be an elite shooter or ball handler, just pretty good. And those are skills that almost anybody can become pretty good at with practice. So that leaves the last thing—conditioning/engagement. The jury is still out on that and it does give me pause, but I’m willing to place my faith in him. Again, he seems like he wants it.

Why is that “thing” so important? Cuz when it really matters deep in the playoffs it’s the players with that thing that succeed and the guys who lack it that don’t. Barnes has that “thing” combined with elite size, above average athleticism, and an elite skill already. He just has to put in the work. But the possibility for greatness is there.

I agree with a lot of things you said. Scottie has excellent size, good athleticism, defensive versatility and processes the game well. Even if he never develops that jumper, he’s going to be a solid player in this league. If that jumper develops then we are going to be in good shape.

We do need to tone it down a bit though. Lol. Can we honestly say he plays harder than anyone else when it comes to winning time? That is an incredibly bold statement especially for a guy that has had questions about his motor/effort.

Hey man I have lots of questions about Barnes’ effort in terms of consistency throughout a game, but if the game is relatively close, he’s usually very engaged in the last five minutes of the 4th. Not every time of course, but most of the time. Maybe it’s all the energy he saves from coasting on the perimeter for three quarters.

the consistency throughout the game is bull to me and im not sure why people still dont realize it. hes not a primary scorer and his goal is to make his team better... last season you had 2 players essentially playing for a contract (trent, fvv) and another one playing for his numbers (siakam)... not to mention another player whos been rumoured to want a bigger role offensively (og.) that's 4 of your 5 starters that are trying to get theirs somehow, while still trying to play winning basketball... of course scottie is gonna defer... there was also a clear locker room pecking order between the vets (namely fvv and siakam) and the young guys... scottie was just trying to fit in... in an interview last season with scotties personal trainer, he mentioned that scottie was just waiting for his opportunity to be a top player in the league... when the organization finally declares its his team, which has already pretty much been done, expect to see a different more aggressive scottie. in an interview

[Dennis 37]

Spoiler:

Agreed 100%.

Having been around basketball as much as I have in my life I think I rate some intangible qualities much higher than most in my player evaluations. That’s why I rate a guy like Barnes so highly—his resume in terms of intangibles is pretty impressive:

-extremely long
-great open court speed
-excellent second jump and offensive rebounding instinct
-obviously sees the court very well and makes passes into tight pockets. He throws players open. Almost always puts players into an advantageous position with his passes. Can make the obvious pass or the unexpected pass.
-understands the pass that leads to a pass
-excellent free safety on D
-very big shoulders and very strong. Probably one of the strongest forwards in the league and he hasn’t hit his physical prime yet.

But more important than the above for me are what he’s shown with performances and attitude:

-multiple fourth quarter takeover moments
-has shown up huge against KD, Lebron, the Bucks and Brook Lopez (DPOY), Jokic, JJJ (DPOY), bullied Sabonis twice as a rookie, etc.
-he’s not scared of anybody on the court and tends to play better against marquee competition
-plays harder than anybody else on the court when it’s winning time
-has shown the ability to shift the momentum of a game over a three of four minute stretch of making plays on both ends, all over the court
-makes clutch FTs

So while Barnes needs to be more consistent with his engagement and develop some skills, he’s shown that he can play at a high level in high leverage situations. If he doesn’t get better than he is now he’s still an elite role player but given his intelligence and desire to win, it’s hard to see how he doesn’t get better.

Then you look at a guy like Banchero who is even more physically gifted than Barnes (and most guys in the league—how many 6’10 guys are as fluid, explosive, coordinated and strong as Banchero?) with better skills and great IQ and it sounds like a franchise player in the making. Except for one thing. He sometimes goes deer in the headlights at the end of games or sometimes passes instead of trying to score. I don’t think this is an experience thing for him, but a mentality thing. Time will tell.

Now concerning a guy like Mobley, he’s a guy with a great skill profile on both ends at such a young age. He’s also a very fluid athlete with high basketball IQ on both ends. Great size and length too. So what’s the issue? He’s not very explosive but whatever, that can be overcome. The bigger issue with him is he just doesn’t want to be the guy. When his team needs a bucket he’s not a guy who demands the ball so he can make a play. If he had that then you’re looking at a superstar, but he doesn’t and that’s not the sort of thing guys usually develop. It’s almost always a thing that you either have or you don’t.

So yeah, I’m high on Barnes, because he has that thing. With the size, strength and IQ to go with it. Plus, he already has an elite skill and it happens to be a skill that makes everyone better. What he needs is better conditioning, shooting and dribbling. Mind you, he doesn’t need to be an elite shooter or ball handler, just pretty good. And those are skills that almost anybody can become pretty good at with practice. So that leaves the last thing—conditioning/engagement. The jury is still out on that and it does give me pause, but I’m willing to place my faith in him. Again, he seems like he wants it.

Why is that “thing” so important? Cuz when it really matters deep in the playoffs it’s the players with that thing that succeed and the guys who lack it that don’t. Barnes has that “thing” combined with elite size, above average athleticism, and an elite skill already. He just has to put in the work. But the possibility for greatness is there.

I agree with a lot of things you said. Scottie has excellent size, good athleticism, defensive versatility and processes the game well. Even if he never develops that jumper, he’s going to be a solid player in this league. If that jumper develops then we are going to be in good shape.

We do need to tone it down a bit though. Lol. Can we honestly say he plays harder than anyone else when it comes to winning time? That is an incredibly bold statement especially for a guy that has had questions about his motor/effort.

Hey man I have lots of questions about Barnes’ effort in terms of consistency throughout a game, but if the game is relatively close, he’s usually very engaged in the last five minutes of the 4th. Not every time of course, but most of the time. Maybe it’s all the energy he saves from coasting on the perimeter for three quarters.

Its pretty easy. Scottie hadn't been given the PG role and his skillset overlaps with the remaining players. His role is not well defined, so he defers to others. Then, after he has watched a crapload of excrement play during the first three quarters, he says, "Enough of this bowel movement show, I'm taking over."

[Thaddy]

We need to make him the back up PG again but give him more to work with. Gradey is a good start and adds more shooting but we need to a few other key areas. The Achiuwa and Boucher front court isn't really cutting it. The hope is that Koloko builds on his rookie year and can start finishing around the bucket and making some threes. I think that's a hard ask, I'd rather have Achiuwa there if the situation is right. He's going to be playing with some combination of Koloko, Achiuwa, Boucher, OPJ, Dick, McDaniels, and Flynn. I don't think there's enough shooting there to maximize Barnes talent.

[sbsat]

It’s all relative to other talent in the league in my mind. The old guard is fading away and the new guys are coming in. None of those guys on the list have played their third season yet and I think most of them are really good. In my mind there’s a clear drop off after Kessler though.

I might end up looking like a genius or a fool in a couple years haha. But I’m confident. The obvious caveat is there are guys who aren’t in the league yet who in my opinion will move everyone after Scoot down the list. That’s to say that I think Wemby and Scoot are true superstar talents. The other guys…well we will see haha.

I agree with you in terms of the comparison to the rest of the league. The big thing here is that this list of guys has a lot of players who can do multiple things and are just better body archetypes. We have a lot of pretenders who are guards masquerading as stars right now, who imo aren't as good as their counting stats in terms of team impact.

This list has a lot of guys who have a chance of being very impact players. I think the Cade Cunningham draft has a bunch of guys who really haven't separated themselves, but the best i have seen from Barnes has been better than the best from anyone from his draft class. Obviously that best needs to be reached consistently, but again no one has done that yet. I think you have to put Banchero above him in terms of pure skillset but I think the IQ lags behind and that's where Barnes can make up where Banchero is clearly better in terms of overall skill right now.

Agreed 100%.

Having been around basketball as much as I have in my life I think I rate some intangible qualities much higher than most in my player evaluations. That’s why I rate a guy like Barnes so highly—his resume in terms of intangibles is pretty impressive:

-extremely long
-great open court speed
-excellent second jump and offensive rebounding instinct
-obviously sees the court very well and makes passes into tight pockets. He throws players open. Almost always puts players into an advantageous position with his passes. Can make the obvious pass or the unexpected pass.
-understands the pass that leads to a pass
-excellent free safety on D
-very big shoulders and very strong. Probably one of the strongest forwards in the league and he hasn’t hit his physical prime yet.

But more important than the above for me are what he’s shown with performances and attitude:

-multiple fourth quarter takeover moments
-has shown up huge against KD, Lebron, the Bucks and Brook Lopez (DPOY), Jokic, JJJ (DPOY), bullied Sabonis twice as a rookie, etc.
-he’s not scared of anybody on the court and tends to play better against marquee competition
-plays harder than anybody else on the court when it’s winning time
-has shown the ability to shift the momentum of a game over a three of four minute stretch of making plays on both ends, all over the court
-makes clutch FTs

So while Barnes needs to be more consistent with his engagement and develop some skills, he’s shown that he can play at a high level in high leverage situations. If he doesn’t get better than he is now he’s still an elite role player but given his intelligence and desire to win, it’s hard to see how he doesn’t get better.

Then you look at a guy like Banchero who is even more physically gifted than Barnes (and most guys in the league—how many 6’10 guys are as fluid, explosive, coordinated and strong as Banchero?) with better skills and great IQ and it sounds like a franchise player in the making. Except for one thing. He sometimes goes deer in the headlights at the end of games or sometimes passes instead of trying to score. I don’t think this is an experience thing for him, but a mentality thing. Time will tell.

Now concerning a guy like Mobley, he’s a guy with a great skill profile on both ends at such a young age. He’s also a very fluid athlete with high basketball IQ on both ends. Great size and length too. So what’s the issue? He’s not very explosive but whatever, that can be overcome. The bigger issue with him is he just doesn’t want to be the guy. When his team needs a bucket he’s not a guy who demands the ball so he can make a play. If he had that then you’re looking at a superstar, but he doesn’t and that’s not the sort of thing guys usually develop. It’s almost always a thing that you either have or you don’t.

So yeah, I’m high on Barnes, because he has that thing. With the size, strength and IQ to go with it. Plus, he already has an elite skill and it happens to be a skill that makes everyone better. What he needs is better conditioning, shooting and dribbling. Mind you, he doesn’t need to be an elite shooter or ball handler, just pretty good. And those are skills that almost anybody can become pretty good at with practice. So that leaves the last thing—conditioning/engagement. The jury is still out on that and it does give me pause, but I’m willing to place my faith in him. Again, he seems like he wants it.

Why is that “thing” so important? Cuz when it really matters deep in the playoffs it’s the players with that thing that succeed and the guys who lack it that don’t. Barnes has that “thing” combined with elite size, above average athleticism, and an elite skill already. He just has to put in the work. But the possibility for greatness is there.

A lot of the intangibles you listed are tangible and measurable ie length. His 2nd year should be concerning to all of us who really are hoping he develops. Its to easy to blame fred, nurse etc. Barnes homself admitted his conditioning is not up to par. This year will be big

[HumbleRen]

Scottie's lack of aggression is more so due to his mentality and conditioning rather then it is about him not playing PG.

[hype_2004]

It’s all relative to other talent in the league in my mind. The old guard is fading away and the new guys are coming in. None of those guys on the list have played their third season yet and I think most of them are really good. In my mind there’s a clear drop off after Kessler though.

I might end up looking like a genius or a fool in a couple years haha. But I’m confident. The obvious caveat is there are guys who aren’t in the league yet who in my opinion will move everyone after Scoot down the list. That’s to say that I think Wemby and Scoot are true superstar talents. The other guys…well we will see haha.

I agree with you in terms of the comparison to the rest of the league. The big thing here is that this list of guys has a lot of players who can do multiple things and are just better body archetypes. We have a lot of pretenders who are guards masquerading as stars right now, who imo aren't as good as their counting stats in terms of team impact.

This list has a lot of guys who have a chance of being very impact players. I think the Cade Cunningham draft has a bunch of guys who really haven't separated themselves, but the best i have seen from Barnes has been better than the best from anyone from his draft class. Obviously that best needs to be reached consistently, but again no one has done that yet. I think you have to put Banchero above him in terms of pure skillset but I think the IQ lags behind and that's where Barnes can make up where Banchero is clearly better in terms of overall skill right now.

Agreed 100%.

Having been around basketball as much as I have in my life I think I rate some intangible qualities much higher than most in my player evaluations. That’s why I rate a guy like Barnes so highly—his resume in terms of intangibles is pretty impressive:

-extremely long
-great open court speed
-excellent second jump and offensive rebounding instinct
-obviously sees the court very well and makes passes into tight pockets. He throws players open. Almost always puts players into an advantageous position with his passes. Can make the obvious pass or the unexpected pass.
-understands the pass that leads to a pass
-excellent free safety on D
-very big shoulders and very strong. Probably one of the strongest forwards in the league and he hasn’t hit his physical prime yet.

But more important than the above for me are what he’s shown with performances and attitude:

-multiple fourth quarter takeover moments
-has shown up huge against KD, Lebron, the Bucks and Brook Lopez (DPOY), Jokic, JJJ (DPOY), bullied Sabonis twice as a rookie, etc.
-he’s not scared of anybody on the court and tends to play better against marquee competition
-plays harder than anybody else on the court when it’s winning time
-has shown the ability to shift the momentum of a game over a three of four minute stretch of making plays on both ends, all over the court
-makes clutch FTs

So while Barnes needs to be more consistent with his engagement and develop some skills, he’s shown that he can play at a high level in high leverage situations. If he doesn’t get better than he is now he’s still an elite role player but given his intelligence and desire to win, it’s hard to see how he doesn’t get better.

Then you look at a guy like Banchero who is even more physically gifted than Barnes (and most guys in the league—how many 6’10 guys are as fluid, explosive, coordinated and strong as Banchero?) with better skills and great IQ and it sounds like a franchise player in the making. Except for one thing. He sometimes goes deer in the headlights at the end of games or sometimes passes instead of trying to score. I don’t think this is an experience thing for him, but a mentality thing. Time will tell.

Now concerning a guy like Mobley, he’s a guy with a great skill profile on both ends at such a young age. He’s also a very fluid athlete with high basketball IQ on both ends. Great size and length too. So what’s the issue? He’s not very explosive but whatever, that can be overcome. The bigger issue with him is he just doesn’t want to be the guy. When his team needs a bucket he’s not a guy who demands the ball so he can make a play. If he had that then you’re looking at a superstar, but he doesn’t and that’s not the sort of thing guys usually develop. It’s almost always a thing that you either have or you don’t.

So yeah, I’m high on Barnes, because he has that thing. With the size, strength and IQ to go with it. Plus, he already has an elite skill and it happens to be a skill that makes everyone better. What he needs is better conditioning, shooting and dribbling. Mind you, he doesn’t need to be an elite shooter or ball handler, just pretty good. And those are skills that almost anybody can become pretty good at with practice. So that leaves the last thing—conditioning/engagement. The jury is still out on that and it does give me pause, but I’m willing to place my faith in him. Again, he seems like he wants it.

Why is that “thing” so important? Cuz when it really matters deep in the playoffs it’s the players with that thing that succeed and the guys who lack it that don’t. Barnes has that “thing” combined with elite size, above average athleticism, and an elite skill already. He just has to put in the work. But the possibility for greatness is there.

What do Kawhi, LeBron, Luka, Zion and Giannis have in common that allows them to dominate? A lot players in the league have skill, a lot are athletic but what separates the elite forwards from the run of the mill is simply being bigger an stronger than the opposition. This gives then the confidence to absorb contact, challenge for positioning and simply play bully ball and impose their will on the game. Barnes is on that strength level and that's why he has exhibited the ability to take over games and it's due to sheer strength and willpower, this is why Siakam is so ineffective in crunch time. He plays a weak finesse game and he has trouble finishing when the play gets real physical, Barnes thrive on physical play, all the greats do.