why do people rank bird over kob?

[70sFan]

If I can suggest anything from my experience, the best way to do such project is to focus on a few players at the same time to get a good idea what stands out in comparison to other players. I started my tracking project with Russell and I didn't realize how rare it is to be that consistent on defense and instead I focused too much on his mistakes and took things like good rotation or position for granted.

That's why it's cool to do at least 2-3 players at the same time.

[OhayoKD]

If I can suggest anything from my experience, the best way to do such project is to focus on a few players at the same time to get a good idea what stands out in comparison to other players. I started my tracking project with Russell and I didn't realize how rare it is to be that consistent on defense and instead I focused too much on his mistakes and took things like good rotation or position for granted.

That's why it's cool to do at least 2-3 players at the same time.

Unfortunately, we are putting all our focus on one player and it is still taking very long

We want this to be more rigorous than what was done before and right now we're working together on the same games and spliting the work(after establishing common standards). More work would require more people realistically

That said, maybe we can do dual tracking for Hakeem and Bird from the finals

[70sFan]

If I can suggest anything from my experience, the best way to do such project is to focus on a few players at the same time to get a good idea what stands out in comparison to other players. I started my tracking project with Russell and I didn't realize how rare it is to be that consistent on defense and instead I focused too much on his mistakes and took things like good rotation or position for granted.

That's why it's cool to do at least 2-3 players at the same time.

Unfortunately, we are putting all our focus on one player and it is still taking very long

We want this to be more rigorous than what was done before and right now we're working together on the same games and spliting the work(after establishing common standards). More work would require more people realistically

That said, maybe we can do dual tracking for Hakeem and Bird from the finals

If you need any games for that project, please let me know.

[OhayoKD]

If I can suggest anything from my experience, the best way to do such project is to focus on a few players at the same time to get a good idea what stands out in comparison to other players. I started my tracking project with Russell and I didn't realize how rare it is to be that consistent on defense and instead I focused too much on his mistakes and took things like good rotation or position for granted.

That's why it's cool to do at least 2-3 players at the same time.

Unfortunately, we are putting all our focus on one player and it is still taking very long

We want this to be more rigorous than what was done before and right now we're working together on the same games and spliting the work(after establishing common standards). More work would require more people realistically

That said, maybe we can do dual tracking for Hakeem and Bird from the finals

If you need any games for that project, please let me know.

just going for the closest games in the last series

game 2 for 1981 nba finals and game 3 for 1986?

[70sFan]

Unfortunately, we are putting all our focus on one player and it is still taking very long

We want this to be more rigorous than what was done before and right now we're working together on the same games and spliting the work(after establishing common standards). More work would require more people realistically

That said, maybe we can do dual tracking for Hakeem and Bird from the finals

If you need any games for that project, please let me know.

just going for the closest games in the last series

game 2 for 1981 nba finals and game 3 for 1986?

I actually never saved these finals games because they were always available online, but I know where to find them. If you want these two, I will get them within a few days.

[OhayoKD]

If you need any games for that project, please let me know.

just going for the closest games in the last series

game 2 for 1981 nba finals and game 3 for 1986?

I actually never saved these finals games because they were always available online, but I know where to find them. If you want these two, I will get them within a few days.

thanks a ton!

[MyUniBroDavis]

Thanks for the link, I'm interested in finding and watching full games of previous era's, it's so difficult to find them and even then sometime they get deleted after a while on youtube.

Are you guys tracking any specific things, like types of shot profiles, playmaking or rebounding? Would be curious to see similar stuff that 70sfan did when it came to offensive rebounding/putbacks for big-men.

we are trying to track holistically with a slightly more refined version of a system a friend came up which itself was designed to take ben's stuff but offer more differention

Main things we are tracking(and then vetting) are

frequency of creation and quality of creation
-> great oc
-> good oc
-> decent oc

defensive plays
-> major breakdowns
-> moderate breakdowns
-> minor breakdowns

-> great DP
-> good DP
-> decent DP

rebounding
-> uncontested defensive rebounds, contested offensive ones
-> uncontested offensive rebounds, contested offensive ones
scoring
-> points, possessions, technicals(intentional free throws?)
misc
-> other things noteworthy

Not sure if we will do this, but our predecessor liked to call a game when we think its garbage time noting the minutes and exact score gap(this was a source of controversy with 91 ecf game 2 where Jordan's series averages spiked dramatically in quarter 4 with some intentional/desperation fouling after a 15 point gap was generated)

also, specifically because it's bird, trying to track anytime off-ball movement makes a score easier(moves a defender), frequency of
ball-handling(drives, bringing ball up), how open or not open looks are, to what extent bird is being hidden defensively, ect

we've done close to 3/4ths of this game and are planning to do a split between 81 and the 86 series while thread #12 is taking place.

Some possible expansions we might consider:
-> missed reads(this will be pretty difficult but it is an important part of the puzzle)
-> rebounding assists(when a player generates a rebound for a teammate)
-> open/contested scoring
-> degree of self-generation(on/off)

ect.

If anyone is interested in joining in, dm me. We could use some help!

we also plan on showing edge-cases and how low/high a player can look in various components here based on differing interpretations(whether screens should be counted as legitimate oc's has been a point of contention for example)

That some great (and a lot of) work you guys are doing. Looking forward to see how these (offensive) tracking stats look for IT as well!

I would be interesting in joining, but I already know beforehand I don't have the time commitment for this . Do share the results with the rest of the forums, it's definitely a very cool project!

I have shared some of the proto-tracking but I guess I may as well provide what was done with game 1 from the same series. Was vetted by different people though(and a love of Caps Lock )...

14 POINTS FROM 22 POSSESSIONS, 1 POINT FROM A TECHNICAL HE DID NOT EARN
2 MAJOR DEFNEISVE BREAKDOWNS, 12 Normal DEFENSIVE BREAKDOWNS
1 Great Defensive play, 9 good defensive plays
4 Great OC, 8 good OC, 1 Weak OC
1 foul drawn
2 contested defensive rebounds
4 turnovers
Called game, with the celtics up 15 with 3 minuites left.
Zero created oppurtunities off ball, barely handled the ball, defensive breakdowns on average were alot worse than his postive defnsive plays, half his assists were replacement level plays, set three screens all game, did draw some defensive atention with off ball movement at times, woeful effiency on a not patcularly difficult selection of shots.

The original methodology:

```THE OG METHOD:```
``CREATION``
OC's: when you're primarily responsible for the creation of a scoring oppurtunity
HIGH OC's: When you create an open layup/dunk
GOOD OC: When you create a 1v1 at the rim or an open three
WEAK OC: EXTRA PASS, teamamte has to dribble a bit, ect.

``DEFENSE``
Defensive plays are when you do something that helps the prevention of a score, even if they end up scoring anyway
GREAT DP: Rim contest, rim deterrence, (note: getting a block does not neccesarily mean you should get the most credit for a defensive stoppage), charge near rim, stealing during a 2 v1, denying an entry pass that leads to an easy score, a contested defensive rebound that prevents an uncontested score ect, ect, remembet ro adjust for teammates!!! If a bucnh of players are helping on a rim play its probably not a "great" play
GOOD DP: Being involved in a rim stop, shot contest, stonewalling a player in the perimiter, being the primary cause of a steal, winning a contested rebound ect
DECENT DP: Weaker contests, being in postion for a few secs, applying seocondary pressure, secondary help on a rebound ect, ect,
Defensive errors are when you do something that hurts your team defensively:
MAJOR BREAKDOWN: When you're primarily responsible for a really good scoring chance
MINOR BREAKDOWN: When everyone's to blame or it doesn't lead to a really good scorng chance, ect.

This is gonna be nasty lmao (in a bad way)

[ShaqAttac]

then why bird fans the ones dyin

if all u got is jokes and excuses maybe bird shouldnt be so high

Bird is arguably the GOAT passer. He is clearly, by far, the GOAT off ball passer. He is in the top tier with Magic. Kobe is no where near that tier. He isn’t in the next tier down. He isn’t in the following tier. He’d be luckily to be considered in the tier below the tier of that tier.

This is all very obvious to people that watched Bird play. It doesn’t require pages of debate. It’s like debating if 1+1=2 or not. It’s completely worthless. It’s like Bird fans arguing he was a better dunker than Kobe…just dumb and obviously not true.

Kobe wasn't even a willing passer. He was a volume passer (as in, have the ball enough and take enough shots, eventually you will get bulk assists - see Russell Westbrook). But passing wasn't Kobe's game, it was elite scoring that made him special. Passing is one of many facets that made Bird special, especially playing the 3 or 4

why yall keep acting like being good with the ball is bad and being bad with the ball is good

[ShaqAttac]

This isn't trolling at all. If Curry didn't have GOAT tier handles, he wouldn't be as respected as an off-ball threat. On-ball and off-ball skillsets feed into one another from a game theoretical POV. Same reason Dwight Howard, while not a bad post scorer, could be stopped with a double. Couldn't put the ball on the floor and couldn't pass in traffic.

“Being good at ball-handling is good! Needing teammates who are good at ball-handling is bad!”

This is not serious IMO.

But for fun we can also see it as absurdly wrong.

General top ten (no order).

Wilt/Russell/Duncan/Shaq/Hakeem/Bird/KAJ/Magic/James

How many fit this criteria? 2/10. It’s 80% the other way. I’m not able to see it as serious, I’m not clear how anyone could. It’s just not a real point, nor is it an attempt at one.

Wilt shouldn't be in the top 10. Shaq shouldn't be either, but he was a better ball-handler than Bird. So was Duncan.

Russell, Duncan, Hakeem were all-time great defenders. Kareem was an amazing scorer and a DPOY-tier defender.

Bird was a sieve on that end.

i thought bird was supposed to be good on d?

[dk1115]

Bird in terms of overall impact on the game is above Kobe. I didn't even watch Bird play. Kobe, with respect to him, probably ends up being on my 11-15 list of GOATS. It's probably right after Olajuwon for me, but I can't really see anyone reasonably put him above 10.

[ShaqAttac]

That some great (and a lot of) work you guys are doing. Looking forward to see how these (offensive) tracking stats look for IT as well!

I would be interesting in joining, but I already know beforehand I don't have the time commitment for this . Do share the results with the rest of the forums, it's definitely a very cool project!

I have shared some of the proto-tracking but I guess I may as well provide what was done with game 1 from the same series. Was vetted by different people though(and a love of Caps Lock )...

14 POINTS FROM 22 POSSESSIONS, 1 POINT FROM A TECHNICAL HE DID NOT EARN
2 MAJOR DEFNEISVE BREAKDOWNS, 12 Normal DEFENSIVE BREAKDOWNS
1 Great Defensive play, 9 good defensive plays
4 Great OC, 8 good OC, 1 Weak OC
1 foul drawn
2 contested defensive rebounds
4 turnovers
Called game, with the celtics up 15 with 3 minuites left.
Zero created oppurtunities off ball, barely handled the ball, defensive breakdowns on average were alot worse than his postive defnsive plays, half his assists were replacement level plays, set three screens all game, did draw some defensive atention with off ball movement at times, woeful effiency on a not patcularly difficult selection of shots.

The original methodology:

```THE OG METHOD:```
``CREATION``
OC's: when you're primarily responsible for the creation of a scoring oppurtunity
HIGH OC's: When you create an open layup/dunk
GOOD OC: When you create a 1v1 at the rim or an open three
WEAK OC: EXTRA PASS, teamamte has to dribble a bit, ect.

``DEFENSE``
Defensive plays are when you do something that helps the prevention of a score, even if they end up scoring anyway
GREAT DP: Rim contest, rim deterrence, (note: getting a block does not neccesarily mean you should get the most credit for a defensive stoppage), charge near rim, stealing during a 2 v1, denying an entry pass that leads to an easy score, a contested defensive rebound that prevents an uncontested score ect, ect, remembet ro adjust for teammates!!! If a bucnh of players are helping on a rim play its probably not a "great" play
GOOD DP: Being involved in a rim stop, shot contest, stonewalling a player in the perimiter, being the primary cause of a steal, winning a contested rebound ect
DECENT DP: Weaker contests, being in postion for a few secs, applying seocondary pressure, secondary help on a rebound ect, ect,
Defensive errors are when you do something that hurts your team defensively:
MAJOR BREAKDOWN: When you're primarily responsible for a really good scoring chance
MINOR BREAKDOWN: When everyone's to blame or it doesn't lead to a really good scorng chance, ect.

This is gonna be nasty lmao (in a bad way)

gonna be funny in 2024 when every1 be asking if mchale was the real mvp. I aint see a guy get hit like this since mj