RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - General Thread

[ShaqAttac]

Hey y'all,

Still taking thoughts about adding a 2nd vote to the Nomination. Haven't heard from a lot of people and some of those responding have been Nays. If others who have spoken up would like us to add this, please speak up soon.

Thanks,
Doc

id like 2 noms plz

i dont really get why ppl are saying nay though. if you dont wanna use it then dont use it

[One_and_Done]

Unfortunately only 19 votes were cast for the #4 position, compared to 30 at the #9 vote.

Your point isn't wrong, but as project runner, it makes me happy. In a project like this we're mostly dealing with slowing attrition. If we can actually grow the voter base for a while, it gives me optimism for a strong rest of the project.

Did you vote for #12? I don't think I saw your vote.

[rk2023]

Shouldn’t the nomination deadline be tonight at Midnight rather than 9 AM?

I wasn’t expecting to see this on the #12 thread due to the procedure / time limits deployed the first 11 iterations, and still have a vote I’d like to cast (specifically elaborate upon).

[Colbinii]

Shouldn’t the nomination deadline be tonight at Midnight rather than 9 AM?

I wasn’t expecting to see this on the #12 thread due to the procedure / time limits deployed the first 11 iterations, and still have a vote I’d like to cast (specifically elaborate upon).

It should. Penbeast probably did a typo or forget it was 72 hours.

[rk2023]

Shouldn’t the nomination deadline be tonight at Midnight rather than 9 AM?

I wasn’t expecting to see this on the #12 thread due to the procedure / time limits deployed the first 11 iterations, and still have a vote I’d like to cast (specifically elaborate upon).

It should. Penbeast probably did a typo or forget it was 72 hours.

Perhaps it could have been a typo with intention of "72 hours" - where Doc is usually tallying the votes the A.M. afternoon following a given round. Seems as if votes and discourse is still circulating / being taken.

[penbeast0]

Please, go and vote. It's open until Doc starts the next one.

[Doctor MJ]

Unfortunately only 19 votes were cast for the #4 position, compared to 30 at the #9 vote.

Your point isn't wrong, but as project runner, it makes me happy. In a project like this we're mostly dealing with slowing attrition. If we can actually grow the voter base for a while, it gives me optimism for a strong rest of the project.

Did you vote for #12? I don't think I saw your vote.

Haven't voted yet.

[Doctor MJ]

Hey y'all, so two things that I'm going to repeat with the start of the next thread:

1. There's enough interest in the 2nd Nomination vote that I'm going to add it effective for the #13 thread. Including a 2nd vote is optional, just as it is for the Induction vote, but I'll tally for those who include it.

2. We're getting some folks who keep going at each other's throats again and again. I believe we've had PMs with all the folks I'm thinking of, and the thing is, these are all guys who are smart, passionate, adding energy to the project. I don't want any of them booted, but it's pretty clear at this point that where things escalate, they tend to escalate again. People annoyed with other people from previous conversations tend to bring it into the next conversation.

I've recommended before that folks in these positions just ignore the other posters driving them up the wall, but it's still happening. The recommendation certainly still stands, but here's here's what to expect from moderation:

12-hour suspension when you cross the same tone line you've had before.

I'm hoping this won't be something I end up having to do more than once for anybody, but if this doesn't end up curtailing the issue, I think I'll be forced to boot you. Please don't make it come to that.

Doc

[Doctor MJ]

So, grand irony:

When we finally go to a 2-vote Nomination ballot, there's no Nomination ballot that thread.

Incidentally, it's possible this will now be the only time we have 2 new Nominees now that we're going to a 2-vote system which helps break ties.

[HeartBreakKid]

So, grand irony:

When we finally go to a 2-vote Nomination ballot, there's no Nomination ballot that thread.

Incidentally, it's possible this will now be the only time we have 2 new Nominees now that we're going to a 2-vote system which helps break ties.

How do you break ties as of now?

[Doctor MJ]

So, grand irony:

When we finally go to a 2-vote Nomination ballot, there's no Nomination ballot that thread.

Incidentally, it's possible this will now be the only time we have 2 new Nominees now that we're going to a 2-vote system which helps break ties.

How do you break ties as of now?

Previously in the Nomination vote there was no possibility of tiebreaking.

Now we'll go to 2nd votes. If it remains tied after that then we'll still get multiple winning Nominees, but it's going to be less likely to happen.

[HeartBreakKid]

Shouldn’t the nomination deadline be tonight at Midnight rather than 9 AM?

I wasn’t expecting to see this on the #12 thread due to the procedure / time limits deployed the first 11 iterations, and still have a vote I’d like to cast (specifically elaborate upon).

The time was changed but I think the amount of hours between threads is roughly the same. Since Doc counts the votes when he wakes up regardless I assume he just changed the ending time to the morning for that reason.

[FJS]

I understand this project has a lot of work, and some posters do an impressive job in their posts.
Still, I think MJ as the Goat is not a sure thing, and you can argue against.
Then, you see him 3rd... not sure if it's ok. Probably people get tired of see the same results.
Then, when you see KG in the top 10, and above Bird, Magic or even Curry, you see this is not right.

Sorry, but I had to said it.

[iggymcfrack]

I understand this project has a lot of work, and some posters do an impressive job in their posts.
Still, I think MJ as the Goat is not a sure thing, and you can argue against.
Then, you see him 3rd... not sure if it's ok. Probably people get tired of see the same results.
Then, when you see KG in the top 10, and above Bird, Magic or even Curry, you see this is not right.

Sorry, but I had to said it.

Kareem over Jordan might be a little bit of a hot take, but KG in the top 10 was long overdue. He literally has better impact numbers than anyone from the databall era except LeBron over almost 30 years and he has incredible all-time longevity as well. I honestly feel like you can make a very good case for him as high as #3.

[OhayoKD]

I understand this project has a lot of work, and some posters do an impressive job in their posts.
Still, I think MJ as the Goat is not a sure thing, and you can argue against.
Then, you see him 3rd... not sure if it's ok. Probably people get tired of see the same results.
Then, when you see KG in the top 10, and above Bird, Magic or even Curry, you see this is not right.

Sorry, but I had to said it.

Why would it not be okay for Kareem to go over MJ when he peaked higher, won more, and had much better longetvity?

If anything, it's Russell whose been robbed here considering he has the best era-relative peak, the best era-relative prime, and at least comparable longetvity to Micheal while winning nearly as much as #2 and #3 combined

[OhayoKD]

I understand this project has a lot of work, and some posters do an impressive job in their posts.
Still, I think MJ as the Goat is not a sure thing, and you can argue against.
Then, you see him 3rd... not sure if it's ok. Probably people get tired of see the same results.
Then, when you see KG in the top 10, and above Bird, Magic or even Curry, you see this is not right.

Sorry, but I had to said it.

Kareem over Jordan might be a little bit of a hot take, but KG in the top 10 was long overdue. He literally has better impact numbers than anyone from the databall era except LeBron over almost 30 years and he has incredible all-time longevity as well. I honestly feel like you can make a very good case for him as high as #3.

Duncan exists.

[FJS]

I understand this project has a lot of work, and some posters do an impressive job in their posts.
Still, I think MJ as the Goat is not a sure thing, and you can argue against.
Then, you see him 3rd... not sure if it's ok. Probably people get tired of see the same results.
Then, when you see KG in the top 10, and above Bird, Magic or even Curry, you see this is not right.

Sorry, but I had to said it.

Kareem over Jordan might be a little bit of a hot take, but KG in the top 10 was long overdue. He literally has better impact numbers than anyone from the databall era except LeBron over almost 30 years and he has incredible all-time longevity as well. I honestly feel like you can make a very good case for him as high as #3.

He can have all the databall era, but the true it's after all his impact was not traduced in wins. He had 12 seasons as the leader, only passing 1st round one time. He won 2 playoffs rounds in 12 years. He missed playoffs 4 times playoffs, 3 in his prime.
You can talk about how poor was his teams, but other players did more with similar talent (Iverson past 1st round several times for example, Moses Malone arrived to finals with a 40-42 team and conference finals with 41-41 to name a pair of examples)

John Stockton in his last 2 of 3 finals years was a semigod in databall (when it began), and you can believe me, he was not the best pg in the league in those years. He was not even his best version of himself.

To put KG ahead of Bird or Magic it's simply not right. KG was a great overall player with an excellent deffense, but he is not at the same level as Bird, Magic or even Curry.


And about longevity... he played a lot of years... but true peak was between 99 and 08. Then he had several years of around 15 ppg, less than 9 rebounds and around 2 apg, which is fine, but not couting as great longevity. Then 3 years to forget.

I don't think those years overcome 13 seasons of bird or Magic.

[AEnigma]

I understand this project has a lot of work, and some posters do an impressive job in their posts.
Still, I think MJ as the Goat is not a sure thing, and you can argue against.
Then, you see him 3rd... not sure if it's ok. Probably people get tired of see the same results.
Then, when you see KG in the top 10, and above Bird, Magic or even Curry, you see this is not right.

Sorry, but I had to said it.
…
[KG] can have all the databall era, but the true it's after all his impact was not traduced in wins. He had 12 seasons as the leader, only passing 1st round one time. He won 2 playoffs rounds in 12 years. He missed playoffs 4 times playoffs, 3 in his prime.

I agree Garnett’s case has been largely built around his player archetype and what people think could be accomplished on rosters with normal title support, as opposed to what was actually accomplished. He is locked out of my personal top nine, and I go back and forth on where he belongs 10-13 (I do think he is the best player to only win one title though, so that makes #13 his floor for me), but if people think his defence and supporting offence in tandem with his immense impact indicators mean that, over a long career, he could have won multiple titles in a better situation, I cannot really dispute that. 2003/04 Garnett I think is an outright better peak than someone like Larry Bird, but instead of McHale and Parish he had old Sprewell and an eventually injured Cassell.

You can talk about how poor was his teams, but other players did more with similar talent (Iverson past 1st round several times for example

Okay, now look at their competition. What is the best team Iverson beat, and what is the worst team Garnett failed to beat?

Iverson frequently had great defensive support, but we can see the problem with this approach when Iverson teams up with Carmelo and fails to win a round either, because they get matched up with legitimately strong teams. Iverson made the Finals after being outplayed by every opposing shooting guard he faced. That is just not comparable.

Moses Malone arrived to finals with a 40-42 team

Because he won a three-game series against the Lakers, was bailed out by his “bad” team against the Spurs (also a worse team than any that ever beat Garnett), and faced an even worse team in the conference finals. Garnett took 2-1 leads against the 6-SRS Sonics and the defending threepeat Lakers — but then he lost because ever since then, needing to only win two of the first three games stopped being the standard.

and conference finals with 41-41 to name a pair of examples)

Wrong, it was a 49-win team that beat a 0.9 SRS team to make those conference finals.

John Stockton in his last 2 of 3 finals years was a semigod in databall (when it began), and you can believe me, he was not the best pg in the league in those years. He was not even his best version of himself.

In some agreement here, but that comparison applies more to late career Garnett. And even then, 2012 Garnett was still an excellent player anchoring a conference finals team, and Stockton was never that.

And about longevity... he played a lot of years... but true peak was between 99 and 08. Then he had several years of around 15 ppg, less than 9 rebounds and around 2 apg, which is fine, but not couting as great longevity. I don't think those years overcome 13 seasons of bird or Magic.

That is bad production for an offensive star, but for a defensive star that does not tell us much. I think 2010-12 Garnett was better than 1990-92 Bird overall, and in 1997 and 1998 he was already dragging his team to the postseason.

[homecourtloss]

I understand this project has a lot of work, and some posters do an impressive job in their posts.
Still, I think MJ as the Goat is not a sure thing, and you can argue against.
Then, you see him 3rd... not sure if it's ok. Probably people get tired of see the same results.
Then, when you see KG in the top 10, and above Bird, Magic or even Curry, you see this is not right.

Sorry, but I had to said it.

Regarding the first bolded sentence—that’s not what happened.

Regarding the second bolded sentence—why is it not “right”? There were great reasons given for all.

[FJS]

I understand this project has a lot of work, and some posters do an impressive job in their posts.
Still, I think MJ as the Goat is not a sure thing, and you can argue against.
Then, you see him 3rd... not sure if it's ok. Probably people get tired of see the same results.
Then, when you see KG in the top 10, and above Bird, Magic or even Curry, you see this is not right.

Sorry, but I had to said it.

Regarding the first bolded sentence—that’s not what happened.

Regarding the second bolded sentence—why is it not “right”? There were great reasons given for all.

Why?mmm let's see.

Magic played 9 finals in 13 years. Won 5 titles. Won 3 MVPS. He had a stacked team, but from 85 he was the best laker (and before that he was a key player). Do you think if KG was playing alongside Magic he would be playing the alpha role? or will be the excellent sidekick?
Bird 3 ring, 5 finals, 3 MVPs. He was the alpha since day 1. Do you think if KG was playing alongside Bird he would be the franchise player or he would be a McHale/Parrish kind of player?

Kg was good, of course, but he was not a capable #1 player. He was unable to raise his offensive production in playoffs. If you have a weak team you better improve your offensive production (look his FG%, really poor for a big man). He was not able to do it, and his deffense, as good it was, was not able to overcome that.