VOTE: Kobe BryantKobe is very likely NOT a top 20 peak for me. He might barely be a fringe top-25 peak, actually (I'm pretty comfortable saying he's at least in my top 30 peaks). However, he's got MULTIPLE seasons which could [not always for the same reasons] be argued as his "peak season".......which means he's got multiple years playing at that fringe top-25(ish) [all-time] level. And he's got an "extended prime" that lasts 13 durable seasons. Compared to Curry, for example, Kobe's PRIME is like 90 or so additional games and
>7k more minutes, iirc, than Curry's
entire career (and not all of that is prime for Steph). His prime has similar advantage in length/availability compared to Bird's career, too.
And there are about 3
other seasons that are [imo] value-adding for Kobe.
That's adds up to a substantial amount of on-court career value (and recall: I'm a career value above RP type of guy).
Obviously his resume in terms of team success and media accolades [for whatever it's worth] speaks for itself. And he was [like Bird and Curry, among other current candidates] one of those players that drove global popularity of the game (and the NBA product); which, in turn, drives salaries, player pools, and general competitiveness of the league. He was, in fact, a global icon that transcended just basketball [fwiw].
I hope that will suffice for now as argumentation.
Re-iterating some of these same points, I'll quote myself from another recent thread:
trex_8063 wrote:Well, personally I don't anymore.
I used to rank Bird ahead, but I hit a point where I began to feel I put him higher simply because I wanted to, for nostalgia's sake (because I "liked" Bird more, appreciated his career more).
However, it wasn't so clear or easily justified if being honest about my criteria.
Did Bird have greater impact? I suspect he may have, but not by a substantial margin. For more information, I believe there is some data pertaining to both players presented within the bowels of the #9 thread of the current top 100 project.
For my part, I do think Bird peaked a little higher. If I'm comparing "average prime years", I think Bird's are a little better, even though Kobe is a touch more playoff-resilient, fwiw.
However, as I've established for years and years, I'm a total career value [above replacement] kind of guy when it comes to player evaluations (beginning to incorporate a touch of CORP principle, too). And Kobe sort of destroys Bird on the longevity/durability spectrum, which becomes awfully relevant to such an approach.
Take what I might call Kobe's "extended prime" (a slightly liberal view of what might be called "prime" years), what I'd gauge to be '01-'13....
That's 13 seasons (the length of Bird's ENTIRE career). I've just got through saying I think Bird's average prime year is better than Kobe's average prime year; but those 13 years include some of Bird's NON-prime, too. In his full-career avg season, is he better than an average PRIME season of Kobe? Maybe, maybe not. If it is, we're certainly not talking about a notable margin, imo.
And that's before giving recognition to the fact that from '01-'13 Kobe played 76 more games and nearly 3400 more minutes than Bird did [in his whole career]. In short: in terms of availability, Kobe's got ~1 full season more PRIME games/minutes played than Bird played in his whole career.
And Kobe's got some additional value added from '98-'00, too ('97 and '14-'16 are of no consequence to me).
In light of all that, I hit a point where I had a great deal of difficulty putting Bird's 13 years [really it's only 12] ahead of all that [16 years] of relevant Kobe seasons. For awhile [even after recognizing that], I justified keeping Bird ahead by telling myself that Bird was "bigger/more important for the game", "more iconic" than Kobe.
The thing that dispelled that notion was Kobe's death, watching the world react. Realistically, I should have known after the summer of '08 [the Redeem Team]. That spectacle made it clear that Kobe's persona transcended just the sport; he was a cultural touchstone, in a global sense. But somehow I missed it (or simply denied it) until his death.
So, no longer having that "excuse", I made the switch. In a way it was liberating. I stopped playing favourites, stopped bowing to a long-established hierarchy I'd established in my mind [e.g. "Bird cannot go lower than X place..."], and the world didn't end.
EDIT: And with Bird no longer even being in the way, Kobe is my clear choice.
Alternate: Dirk Nowitzki (for now; could see switching to Robinson)
Nomination: Karl MaloneI hope to make a longer post about the Mailman at some point, but I never know if I'll get the chance at this point.
One thing I can't help thinking about when it comes to ranking Karl Malone is that if the refs don't blow two shotclock calls in game 6 ['98] (or if they DID blow them in real-time, but were allowed video review--->as would be
mandated protocol today), the Jazz almost assuredly win game 6. Then game 7 is played in SLC, with Scottie Pippen playing injured.
In short: two crucial calls made correctly likely results in the Jazz winning the '98 title [and Malone winning FMVP]==>both of these things likely occurring
even without any improvement in Malone's performance in said Finals.
If that had taken place, I don't think anyone would blink at someone ranking Karl Malone in the top 10-11 all-time. Because honestly: we'd be looking at the 3rd-leading scorer of all-time (with a couple of the higher/highest rs TS Added on record, iirc), who's also top 10 [I think] in rebounds, high(ish) ranked in steals and assists, who was also awarded All-Defensive honours, twice MVP of the league, a gigantic smattering of All-Star and All-NBA nods, and then a proven leader of a championship team. Almost no one would vehemently argue against such placement of that broad-strokes resume.
But because the refs
did blow those calls and the Jazz lost, I'm perpetually among the contingent that vociferously argues [usually without success] to even garner him serious top 15 consideration. Alas....
"The fact that a proposition is absurd has never hindered those who wish to believe it." -Edward Rutherfurd
"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." - Voltaire
