Manu Ginobili was Really Amazing in 2005

[jazzfan1971]

Give me Manu over Melo on the top 75

[DaGawd]

Give me Manu over Melo on the top 75

smh

gimme manu over dame tho.. and i love dame

[SK21209]

If Ginobili played today he'd have a cult following on this forum and NBA Reddit/Twitter generally. I genuinely believe he was as talented a player as Wade and more talented than the Tier 2 wings of that era like Vince, Allen, and Pierce. If Ginobili had gotten traded and had the opportunity to run his own team in 2004 like Harden did in 2013, I think he likewise becomes a legit MVP candidate and maybe wins one.

The Lakers got a little lucky in that 08 WCF with Ginobili being pretty banged up after the first two rounds. I remember TNT showing some montage of Vujacic guarding him pretty well and realizing it was his ankle injury. We had Bynum and Ariza out too of course, but I wish we'd gotten to see that series with both sides at full strength.

[NDaATL]

Manu coming off the bench with a 25 PER as a GUARD and only averaging 25mpg for his career. He only started about 1/3 of the games in his career.

That is ridiculous. I always wanted to see him as the centerpiece, he would've put up monster numbers.

[wegotthabeet]

he was incredible in the 2005 playoffs and probably should have won FMVP.

TS%: 3rd
OWS: 1st
WS: 2nd
WS/48: 2nd
BPM: 3rd
VORP: 1st
USG%: 18th

[Calvin Klein]

Behind the back plays.

Watch on YouTube

Thanks, man. I miss watching him so much. He was unique and a winner like no other.

[Asianiac_24]

Per minute basis he can go head to head against the best of them, including guys like Kobe and Wade

[dhsilv2]

Give me Manu over Melo on the top 75

smh

gimme manu over dame tho.. and i love dame

[Jcity08]

I used to be scared anytime my team faced the Spurs when Manu had the ball in his hands, he would just find ways to make clutch late game plays. Was absolutely infuriating at the time but nostalgic now.

[picc]

Ginobili was a great player but I think overlook how fortunate his playing circumstances were.

- Never had to handle full ballhandling/distributing responsibility because of Parker
- Never had to handle full scoring responsibility because of Duncan/Parker/Leonard
- Never the focus of opposing defense because of Duncan/Parker/Leonard
- Never had to be a primary defender because of Bowen/Leonard
- Lower minutes + lower load = higher exertion potential in minutes played

He played with some unique advantages with the Spurs roster and system. Ones the players we like to say "if Manu played more minutes, he'd have been as good as [insert high-usage, high-minute, high-load player who was focus of opposing defense]!" weren't typically playing with.

I loved Manu as a player and still do, and was one of his biggest fans during that mid-00's era. So no hate. Just something to consider.

[One_and_Done]

The 05 playoffs were his coming out party.

[dhsilv2]

Manu coming off the bench with a 25 PER as a GUARD and only averaging 25mpg for his career. He only started about 1/3 of the games in his career.

That is ridiculous. I always wanted to see him as the centerpiece, he would've put up monster numbers.

And that's before we get into he was a top tier wing defender.

[NBA Sheady]

This guy turned down TWO max deals to stay with the Spurz.

[dhsilv2]

He was hands down the most exciting player of the 00's. Throwing dunks down on everyone, behind the back passes that you couldn't believe, nutmegging anyone from anywhere on the court, and doing it all while playing some of the best defense in the league.

Kobe had the prettiest game.
AI had the biggest cultural impact.
KG had the most intensity.
Shaq had the biggest personality.
Duncan was the rock.

But manu was a hybrid of them all, coming in a single serving container.

With THIS record when he played!

135-83 playoff record 61.9%
762-295 regular season record 72.1%

[Bornstellar]

Ginobili was a great player but I think overlook how fortunate his playing circumstances were.

- Never had to handle full ballhandling/distributing responsibility because of Parker
- Never had to handle full scoring responsibility because of Duncan/Parker/Leonard
- Never the focus of opposing defense because of Duncan/Parker/Leonard
- Never had to be a primary defender because of Bowen/Leonard
- Lower minutes + lower load = higher exertion potential in minutes played

He played with some unique advantages with the Spurs roster and system. Ones the players we like to say "if Manu played more minutes, he'd have been as good as [insert high-usage, high-minute, high-load player who was focus of opposing defense]!" weren't typically playing with.

I loved Manu as a player and still do, and was one of his biggest fans during that mid-00's era. So no hate. Just something to consider.

The one time he had to do all of those things was during the 2004 Olympics which turned out pretty well for him. I would also note that Manu routinely was the Spurs closer, so while TP was the PG, Manu always had the ball in his hands in crunch time and usually drew the other team's best perimeter defender. I fully believe if he was the main focal point of a team he would put up superstar numbers. Him being injury prone is really just false narrative (he only missed half the season + playoffs once in 2009. Dealt with an unfortunate ankle injury in 2008 WCF and then broke his elbow in the last game of the 2011 RS, not really his fault - still played in both 2008 and 2011 though). He could have played more minutes, Pop just didn't want him to and preferred to try and extend his career (I know you didn't call him injury prone, just sayin' though)

I just wish that Manu had come to the Spurs when he was younger instead of when he was already 26

[dhsilv2]

Ginobili was a great player but I think overlook how fortunate his playing circumstances were.

- Never had to handle full ballhandling/distributing responsibility because of Parker
- Never had to handle full scoring responsibility because of Duncan/Parker/Leonard
- Never the focus of opposing defense because of Duncan/Parker/Leonard
- Never had to be a primary defender because of Bowen/Leonard
- Lower minutes + lower load = higher exertion potential in minutes played

He played with some unique advantages with the Spurs roster and system. Ones the players we like to say "if Manu played more minutes, he'd have been as good as [insert high-usage, high-minute, high-load player who was focus of opposing defense]!" weren't typically playing with.

I loved Manu as a player and still do, and was one of his biggest fans during that mid-00's era. So no hate. Just something to consider.

Kinda true. Though by coming off the bench, manu did get plenty of time to run the offense without Parker on the floor and often even without Parker or Duncan. Not really sure why the being the primary defender thing matters, but the spurs would hide Parker so it isn't like Manu was getting to be hidden on defense either. He might not check the best player, but if a team had two guys, he'd have one of them to protect Parker.

[picc]

Ginobili was a great player but I think overlook how fortunate his playing circumstances were.

- Never had to handle full ballhandling/distributing responsibility because of Parker
- Never had to handle full scoring responsibility because of Duncan/Parker/Leonard
- Never the focus of opposing defense because of Duncan/Parker/Leonard
- Never had to be a primary defender because of Bowen/Leonard
- Lower minutes + lower load = higher exertion potential in minutes played

He played with some unique advantages with the Spurs roster and system. Ones the players we like to say "if Manu played more minutes, he'd have been as good as [insert high-usage, high-minute, high-load player who was focus of opposing defense]!" weren't typically playing with.

I loved Manu as a player and still do, and was one of his biggest fans during that mid-00's era. So no hate. Just something to consider.

The one time he had to do all of those things was during the 2004 Olympics which turned out pretty well for him. I would also note that Manu routinely was the Spurs closer, so while TP was the PG, Manu always had the ball in his hands in crunch time and usually drew the other team's best perimeter defend him. I fully believe if he was the main focal point of a team he would put up superstar numbers. Him being injury prone is really just false narrative (he only missed half the season + playoffs once in 2009. Dealt with an unfortunate ankle injury in 2008 WCF and then broke his elbow in the last game of the 2011 RS, not really his fault - still played in both 2008 and 2011 though). He could have played more minutes, Pop just didn't want him to and preferred to try and extend his career (I know you didn't call him injury prone, just sayin' though)

I just wish that Manu had come to the Spurs when he was younger instead of when he was already 26

Yeah, Manu was a star player and def capable of a lot. He did all the things you mentioned. What he never did, was do it all game, all season, like the other star wings did. You have more energy for those things when the all-star PG you play beside has been running the team and splitting scoring load the majority of game time.

Again, I'm not saying Manu wasn't a star. But he did play with a litany of advantages that helped his game flourish in the minutes he did play. That's all.

[Bornstellar]

Ginobili was a great player but I think overlook how fortunate his playing circumstances were.

- Never had to handle full ballhandling/distributing responsibility because of Parker
- Never had to handle full scoring responsibility because of Duncan/Parker/Leonard
- Never the focus of opposing defense because of Duncan/Parker/Leonard
- Never had to be a primary defender because of Bowen/Leonard
- Lower minutes + lower load = higher exertion potential in minutes played

He played with some unique advantages with the Spurs roster and system. Ones the players we like to say "if Manu played more minutes, he'd have been as good as [insert high-usage, high-minute, high-load player who was focus of opposing defense]!" weren't typically playing with.

I loved Manu as a player and still do, and was one of his biggest fans during that mid-00's era. So no hate. Just something to consider.

The one time he had to do all of those things was during the 2004 Olympics which turned out pretty well for him. I would also note that Manu routinely was the Spurs closer, so while TP was the PG, Manu always had the ball in his hands in crunch time and usually drew the other team's best perimeter defend him. I fully believe if he was the main focal point of a team he would put up superstar numbers. Him being injury prone is really just false narrative (he only missed half the season + playoffs once in 2009. Dealt with an unfortunate ankle injury in 2008 WCF and then broke his elbow in the last game of the 2011 RS, not really his fault - still played in both 2008 and 2011 though). He could have played more minutes, Pop just didn't want him to and preferred to try and extend his career (I know you didn't call him injury prone, just sayin' though)

I just wish that Manu had come to the Spurs when he was younger instead of when he was already 26

Yeah, Manu was a star player and def capable of a lot. He did all the things you mentioned. What he never did, was do it all game, all season, like the other star wings did. You have more energy for those things when the all-star PG you play beside has been running the team and splitting scoring load the majority of game time.

Again, I'm not saying Manu wasn't a star. But he did play with a litany of advantages that helped his game flourish in the minutes he did play. That's all.

I'd actually argue there is 1 season where he was the teams #1 focal point and ran the offense - 2011. Started 79/80 games played, played 30mpg (standard nowadays) had a higher USG than Parker, and played about 100 minutes less and took only about 50 shots less on the season than Parker, and only had about 120 less assists than the team's all-star starting PG while leading the Spurs to a 61-21 record. Of course, he still benefitted by having TP next to him and Duncan behind him (the same way most all-timers did). But my point is that there was definitely one season where Manu was the teams focal offensive weapon and it led to 61 wins, and this was before Leonard came.

[picc]

Kinda true. Though by coming off the bench, manu did get plenty of time to run the offense without Parker on the floor and often even without Parker or Duncan. Not really sure why the being the primary defender thing matters, but the spurs would hide Parker so it isn't like Manu was getting to be hidden on defense either. He might not check the best player, but if a team had two guys, he'd have one of them to protect Parker.

It's just one less thing he had to do. He was never even a situational stopper like his contemporaries were. It's one less minor responsibility and one less useful utility.

Not a huge deal by itself, but added to the other luxuries he played with, they all combine to make equating or extrapolating him to those guys not really work.

Manu's playing circumstances were basically ideal for what you'd want if you were a star guard. Never the primary defender, and all on-ball responsibilities are at a minimum split with another all-star who both plays more minutes and also has a higher usage/load.

By playing off the bench, he spends proportionally more time against the other team's bench as well. Not that he can't do his thing against starter lineups, obviously he did. But that higher share of an already low minute-total being played against bench players help to maximize your own productivity over the course of an entire game. I wonder what that could do for one's advanced stats...?

Just food for thought.

[picc]

I'd actually argue there is 1 season where he was the teams #1 focal point and ran the offense - 2011. Started 79/80 games played, played 30mpg (standard nowadays) had a higher USG than Parker, and played about 100 minutes less and took only about 50 shots less on the season than Parker, and only had about 120 less assists than the team's all-star starting PG while leading the Spurs to a 61-21 record. Of course, he still benefitted by having TP next to him and Duncan behind him (the same way most all-timers did). But my point is that there was definitely one season where Manu was the teams focal offensive weapon and it led to 61 wins, and this was before Leonard came.

I'm not saying Manu wasn't a great player. I'm saying he played with luxuries his contemporaries didn't and can't be extrapolated to near GOAT-tier guards because of that. And in response, you're bringing up a season where Parker led the team in points, assists, minutes, and FGA, and Manu scored 17ppg. Which part of my statement is that supposed to rebut?

I'm not trying to sound snarky. I agree with you that Manu could be an offensive leader on a good team. I was basically his cheerleader during the 2008 season, which I thought was his peak. That was a season he also took on more responsibility with Duncan's decline and was playing like a monster. I'd just like us to temper the level of player we extrapolate him to with a larger load and expanded role.