Manu Ginobili was Really Amazing in 2005

[dhsilv2]

Kinda true. Though by coming off the bench, manu did get plenty of time to run the offense without Parker on the floor and often even without Parker or Duncan. Not really sure why the being the primary defender thing matters, but the spurs would hide Parker so it isn't like Manu was getting to be hidden on defense either. He might not check the best player, but if a team had two guys, he'd have one of them to protect Parker.

It's just one less thing he had to do. He was never even a situational stopper like his contemporaries were. It's one less minor responsibility and one less useful utility.

Not a huge deal by itself, but added to the other luxuries he played with, they all combine to make equating or extrapolating him to those guys not really work.

Manu's playing circumstances were basically ideal for what you'd want if you were a star guard. Never the primary defender, and all on-ball responsibilities are at a minimum split with another all-star who both plays more minutes and also has a higher usage/load.

By playing off the bench, he spends proportionally more time against the other team's bench as well. Not that he can't do his thing against starter lineups, obviously he did. But that higher share of an already low minute-total being played against bench players help to maximize your own productivity over the course of an entire game. I wonder what that could do for one's advanced stats...?

Just food for thought.

It kinda goes both ways. On the one hand, he got to play against weaker guys on the second unit. On the other hand, he had worse teammates with the second unit. Less minutes certainly helps with fatigue, but it also makes it harder sometimes to get into a rhythm and stay in it. It's a big what if.

For whatever it's worth his best years were from 2005-2011 and he both started the majority of those games, but he did play 29 minutes a game in the regular season and 33 in the playoffs. Those are low minutes for that era but sometimes I think it gets exaggerated a bit with his later years as a true bench player.

[picc]

Kinda true. Though by coming off the bench, manu did get plenty of time to run the offense without Parker on the floor and often even without Parker or Duncan. Not really sure why the being the primary defender thing matters, but the spurs would hide Parker so it isn't like Manu was getting to be hidden on defense either. He might not check the best player, but if a team had two guys, he'd have one of them to protect Parker.

It's just one less thing he had to do. He was never even a situational stopper like his contemporaries were. It's one less minor responsibility and one less useful utility.

Not a huge deal by itself, but added to the other luxuries he played with, they all combine to make equating or extrapolating him to those guys not really work.

Manu's playing circumstances were basically ideal for what you'd want if you were a star guard. Never the primary defender, and all on-ball responsibilities are at a minimum split with another all-star who both plays more minutes and also has a higher usage/load.

By playing off the bench, he spends proportionally more time against the other team's bench as well. Not that he can't do his thing against starter lineups, obviously he did. But that higher share of an already low minute-total being played against bench players help to maximize your own productivity over the course of an entire game. I wonder what that could do for one's advanced stats...?

Just food for thought.

It kinda goes both ways. On the one hand, he got to play against weaker guys on the second unit. On the other hand, he had worse teammates with the second unit. Less minutes certainly helps with fatigue, but it also makes it harder sometimes to get into a rhythm and stay in it. It's a big what if.

For whatever it's worth his best years were from 2005-2011 and he both started the majority of those games, but he did play 29 minutes a game in the regular season and 33 in the playoffs. Those are low minutes for that era but sometimes I think it gets exaggerated a bit with his later years as a true bench player.

Manu is fine. I'm not saying he was a weak player playing against weak competition. The bench analysis was just in response to your own bench comment. To drive home that it does indeed "go both ways".

The overall arch is, again, his playing circumstances differed significantly from the GOAT-tier guards he's being extrapolated to equal given the same minutes and opportunity. That's really it. On his own, he was a great player and deserving of lots of respect.

[johanliebert]

prime manu is right there with kobe and wade. imo, you could basically flip a coin between those three and there wouldn't be a loser.

manu seriously might be the most underrated dude in nba history - he's at least in the conversation.

He's not even close.

[maradro]

The starter / reserve argument is stupid

1) lineups change for both team all the time
2) Manu was not a normal bench player, he played more minutes, handled the ball a lot, closed games
3) we have his career splits:

Starter: 16.5/4.2/3/4.3/30.1mpg/.59TS/115Ortg-100Drtg/25.2usg
Reserve: 11.7/3.2/3.5/23.1mpg/.58TS/109Ortg-102drtg/24.2usg

Why are his starters numbers better? More efficient, larger role, better advanced stats, higher raw numbers

Manu sacrificed his fga, much like any player that goes to a big 3 and his stats go down.. the difference is he never got to do "what other all star wings" do, play solo with huge numbers on a losing team.. also, lol at holding Manus teammates against him, when they had long stretches starting bums like mason, Bonner, corpse of mcdyess, etc.. he made so many scrubs look good

[dhsilv2]

It's just one less thing he had to do. He was never even a situational stopper like his contemporaries were. It's one less minor responsibility and one less useful utility.

Not a huge deal by itself, but added to the other luxuries he played with, they all combine to make equating or extrapolating him to those guys not really work.

Manu's playing circumstances were basically ideal for what you'd want if you were a star guard. Never the primary defender, and all on-ball responsibilities are at a minimum split with another all-star who both plays more minutes and also has a higher usage/load.

By playing off the bench, he spends proportionally more time against the other team's bench as well. Not that he can't do his thing against starter lineups, obviously he did. But that higher share of an already low minute-total being played against bench players help to maximize your own productivity over the course of an entire game. I wonder what that could do for one's advanced stats...?

Just food for thought.

It kinda goes both ways. On the one hand, he got to play against weaker guys on the second unit. On the other hand, he had worse teammates with the second unit. Less minutes certainly helps with fatigue, but it also makes it harder sometimes to get into a rhythm and stay in it. It's a big what if.

For whatever it's worth his best years were from 2005-2011 and he both started the majority of those games, but he did play 29 minutes a game in the regular season and 33 in the playoffs. Those are low minutes for that era but sometimes I think it gets exaggerated a bit with his later years as a true bench player.

Manu is fine. I'm not saying he was a weak player playing against weak competition. The bench analysis was just in response to your own bench comment. To drive home that it does indeed "go both ways".

The overall arch is, again, his playing circumstances differed significantly from the GOAT-tier guards he's being extrapolated to equal given the same minutes and opportunity. That's really it. On his own, he was a great player and deserving of lots of respect.

[TB]

I've always considered Manu the 3rd best SG of his era, behind Kobe and Wade. He was wired like them and built for the big moments, wether in Europe, NBA, or international games.

[GYK]

He was cool. Played 30mpg there was very very very little left on the bone.

[mixerball]

prime manu is right there with kobe and wade. imo, you could basically flip a coin between those three and there wouldn't be a loser.

manu seriously might be the most underrated dude in nba history - he's at least in the conversation.

He's not even close.

kobe would tell you

[mixerball]

argument about him playing second units ... the man played some minutes against second units but he always finished games. comment about weaker competition is so far fetched.

[durden_tyler]

Manu Ginobili was Really Amazing. You should have ended the title here

Will pick him over the likes of Harden, Beal, Booker and other supposed superstars, this era or before.

[Point-Forward]

Behind the back plays.

Watch on YouTube

Thanks, man. I miss watching him so much. He was unique and a winner like no other.

Quite a special player, indeed.

[dhsilv2]

argument about him playing second units ... the man played some minutes against second units but he always finished games. comment about weaker competition is so far fetched.

Some data could lead one to argue he might have been the best player in the entire league over about a 3-5 year run. I can understand having some questions on that. So it's not without merit, but it should be within that context.

[dautjazz]

He deserved Reggie's spot. A much better all around player (who was a part of a dynasty).

More than Reggie Miller I would say someone like Bill Sharman. He only played 711 games and just put up 17/4/3 with .497 TS%. Considering this was mostly in the 1950s, Miller easily edges him out.

[cam24thomas]

He deserved Reggie's spot. A much better all around player (who was a part of a dynasty).

But Reggie is the most clutch player outside of MJ and Bird.
I'd much rather have Reggie than Drexler or Kobe, because I like winning close games.

[benhillboy]

The three seasons from 2005-2007, only Dirk and Manu finished Top 5 in WS/48 in all three seasons. Three seasons is a pretty big sample size. I think from 2005-2007 he was one of the very best players in the league.

Manu lost a lot of his statistical resume because his first year in the league was his 25 year-old season. Still won four titles, though.

I'd probably rank him between 60th and 65th all-time, but (presumably) even higher if he'd come into the league at 21 like a normal player.

PS Don't sleep on that defense!

PPS I'd probably rank Reggie between 51st and 55th. He's generally underrated. That's talking whole careers, though.

PPPS I never bothered looking at the Top 75 list and probably never will. From what I've heard, I might disagree with more than 1/3 of it. Life's too short to be bothered...

Smart man. The list is pure filth. About 5-7 guys who would have to actually pay millions toward the salary cap to play for me. Elementary level understanding of team ball movement, shot selection, and defensive integrity some of em. Piss poor leadership skills to boot.

But yeah, Manu was so good at his peak even someone as thick headed as Charles Barkley could realize it with SA not exactly being a commercially-viable team. His team defensive instincts weren’t always apparent but very solid most of the time a la D Wade. Offensively obviously he was a circus act who didn’t get enough credit for how cerebral he was.