Fake Trade Thread #5

[LofJ]

Given the PJ interest from Cleveland and the Pelicans interest in Jarrett Allen I think a 3 team trade could materialize.

Larry Nance and Kira Lewis to the Hornets
Jarrett Allen and Okoro to the Pelicans
Washington and Valanciunas to the Cavs

And whatever picks needed to bridge the gap(s).

Nance is supposedly a great guy to have in your locker-room and he could replace a lot of what PJ gave us. And Kira Lewis is a flyer on a former lottery point guard who has been given very little opportunity in his career. He was known for being super fast with the ball and a good shooter.

This reeks of
-"PJ is a bench player.. you can't pay a bench player 18 million per year."
- "What about 2 players making 16 million combined that are both worse than him but combined make nearly the same money? That way you don't have too good/expensive of a player coming off the bench."

lol

This is who we are as an organization. One of only 2 teams to never pay a dime in luxury tax and currently sporting the lowest player payroll in the league. I'd rather they just keep PJ, but it's becoming increasingly clear that isn't going to happen.

That said I'd pump the brakes on calling Nance worse than PJ. He doesn't stretch the floor like PJ, but he's a significantly better defender.

[Rich4114]

I'm in the resign PJ camp if it's $20m/yr or less. The rub could be he may not have a guaranteed starting role depending on where they believe Miles/Miller fit; so it could be like a DSJ situation just bigger. But all of this is speculation, we don't know because nobody is saying anything on either side. It sure seems like the most likely scenario is PJ returning on the QO and "betting on himself" again.

[LofJ]

I'm in the resign PJ camp if it's $20m/yr or less. The rub could be he may not have a guaranteed starting role depending on where they believe Miles/Miller fit; so it could be like a DSJ situation just bigger. But all of this is speculation, we don't know because nobody is saying anything on either side. It sure seems like the most likely scenario is PJ returning on the QO and "betting on himself" again.

PJ signing the QO and betting on himself would be a really poor career decision. He isn't going to be a starter beyond the first 10 games of the season. Bridges, Hayward, and probably later in the season Miller are all going to be ahead of him. He needs to get his guaranteed money now. He'll be looking at MLE offers next season at best.

[HornetJail]

I'm in the resign PJ camp if it's $20m/yr or less. The rub could be he may not have a guaranteed starting role depending on where they believe Miles/Miller fit; so it could be like a DSJ situation just bigger. But all of this is speculation, we don't know because nobody is saying anything on either side. It sure seems like the most likely scenario is PJ returning on the QO and "betting on himself" again.

PJ signing the QO and betting on himself would be a really poor career decision. He isn't going to be a starter beyond the first 10 games of the season. Bridges, Hayward, and probably later in the season Miller are all going to be ahead of him. He needs to get his guaranteed money now. He'll be looking at MLE offers next season at best.

It would be a really poor decision if he's turning down an offer in the $15-18M range in order to seek out his delusional $20M+ asking price next year. If the Hornets never bring their offer above the MLE, I'd have a hard time blaming him.

[amcoolio]

I'm in the camp of don't pay a player 20 million if they are a bottom 5 starter in the league, which PJ is... out of 30 teams/150 starting NBA players, he's definitely in the 125-150 range. We literally just made this mistake with Terry Rozier, who is in the 100-125 range of player. Why dish out another long term contract for a subpar starter.

Until PJ does the dirty work and become a scrappy player, diving on the floor for rebounds, making life hell for opposing players on defense....he just doesn't have that kind of value for me. He's a finesse 3PT shooting forward. If we want that player trade for Tobias Harris or a similar better version of PJ

[Rich4114]

I'm in the camp of don't pay a player 20 million if they are a bottom 5 starter in the league, which PJ is... out of 30 teams/150 starting NBA players, he's definitely in the 125-150 range. We literally just made this mistake with Terry Rozier, who is in the 100-125 range of player. Why dish out another long term contract for a subpar starter.

Until PJ does the dirty work and become a scrappy player, diving on the floor for rebounds, making life hell for opposing players on defense....he just doesn't have that kind of value for me. He's a finesse 3PT shooting forward. If we want that player trade for Tobias Harris or a similar better version of PJ

This is another reason why we should be looking to move off Terry. He's a good scorer when hot, but if his shot isn't falling then he offers absolutely nothing other than late game blow out stat padding. If we moved Terry, having $20m PJ Washington is way less of a risk. But I'd argue we will end up moving Terry at some point, maybe not until next season so in the meantime secure PJ because having them both on the roster for $20m this season isn't going to matter.

[JMAC3]

Terry Rozier is the 63rd highest player in the NBA at 23 million this season.
We really don't even understand at this point what it means to have an overpaid player.
If Terry made 18 million he would be the 90th highest paid player.

What would that extra 5 million we save do for us? Please explain to me lol
We have 20 million in cap space and a 7.7/12.2 million MLE that is unused.

Again, another reason why trying to operate under the cap vs over the cap is a massive mistake.

[fatlever]

Terry's money is fine. It's his fit. Plus we hope nsj can replicate most of what Terry does by next season.

Maybe hang on to Terry til next summer then look to move him for a top teir backup pg or a stretch big or wing defender.


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[Rich4114]

Terry's money is fine. It's his fit. Plus we hope nsj can replicate most of what Terry does by next season.

Maybe hang on to Terry til next summer then look to move him for a top teir backup pg or a stretch big or wing defender.


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I don't have an issue with Terry or his game, it's his fit on this team and the organization's dependence on him. Mitch's vision for Terry was the lead guy and Kemba replacement. Why? I have no idea, it didn't make sense from the moment they made the trade and hasn't made sense to this day. We had a high volume SG in Monk and I'd argue Monk is way better than Terry at this stage of their careers because Monk does more on the court than Terry does.

I think Mitch finally accepted this team is now LaMelo's team and not Terry's. We'll be able to tell by who they setup to be intro'd during pre-game.

For me, moving Terry gives us a different configuration that balances our lineups a lot more. It could be done without moving Terry if you were to make him 6th man, but they won't do that. Some other team who is more serious will in the future.

[LofJ]

We have someone on the roster already who can start right now ahead of Rozier. If Cody Martin can shoot like he did the season before last and is fully healthy he's exactly the type of player we need next to LaMelo. A strong point of attack defender that can hit shots and move the ball. We can get offense from LaMelo, Bridges, and Hayward/Miller in the starting lineup.

Rozier should be the sixth man this season, but yeah we aren't a strong enough organization to make that change.

A strong organization would hand the keys to the future and start LaMelo, Martin, Miller, Bridges, and Williams. With the veterans backing them up and ready to step up whenever someone is hurt or in foul trouble.

[Rich4114]

We have someone on the roster already who can start right now ahead of Rozier. If Cody Martin can shoot like he did the season before last and is fully healthy he's exactly the type of player we need next to LaMelo. A strong point of attack defender that can hit shots and move the ball. We can get offense from LaMelo, Bridges, and Hayward/Miller in the starting lineup.

Rozier should be the sixth man this season, but yeah we aren't a strong enough organization to make that change.

A strong organization would hand the keys to the future and start LaMelo, Martin, Miller, Bridges, and Williams. With the veterans backing them up and ready to step up whenever someone is hurt or in foul trouble.

Couldn't agree more. I'd do this right now if I were in charge. I can't see Mitch supporting this and I don't think Clifford would want to start Miller either.

[JMAC3]

Monk is probably the better value, but Rozier is the better player. We are probably getting to the point where we undervalue Terry, which is expected because we were bad last year and guys had to play out of character and because of that the team really struggled. Terry, Oubre and PJ all went from being solid 3rd, 5th and 6th options to being our top 3. No surprise they struggled with efficiency most of the year.

Really when it comes to SGs in the league there are 3 main classifications.

Stars- Booker, Mitchell, Brown, SGA, Ant Edwards, Paul George
- of course we would want one of these guys, but you have to draft or trade 5 firsts for them.

Offensive minded- Rozier, Clarkson, Lavine, Poole, Simons, Maxey, Tyler Herro, Buddy Hield, Jalen Green, Jaden Ivey, Dinwiddie
- pretty much play one side of floor, can operate as offensive engine but a net negative on defense.

3D- Vassell, Klay, KCP, Gary Trent Jr, Quentin Grimes, Herb Jones, Gary Harris
- More catch and shoot types that can play some defense but overall they aren't doing much offensively without it being spoon fed.

Other- Bane, Dejounte Murray, THJ, Huerter, Grayson Allen, Reeves
- the outcasts who really don't fit the other groups IMO. Bane and Murray are steps below stars. THJ Huerter and Allen are spacers with poor defense. Reeves is a wildcard still.

Assuming the star list is off limits. Sure there are a few in the Offensive minded category that are more talented than Rozier but fit wise have same limitations. I mean are we a way better team if we move Terry for a guy in the 3D category? I am not sure it's a big change to be honest. Bane and Murray would both be good fits, but would be mad expensive to acquire.

[Rich4114]

Assuming the star list is off limits. Sure there are a few in the Offensive minded category that are more talented than Rozier but fit wise have same limitations. I mean are we a way better team if we move Terry for a guy in the 3D category? I am not sure it's a big change to be honest. Bane and Murray would both be good fits, but would be mad expensive to acquire.

I don't think it's as black and white as the offensive minded-list. Volume and how much they need the ball + their ability/willingness to pass and create are also major factors. Someone like Clarkson is the same as someone like Rozier to me, but their roles are not the same. Clarkson's role is optimized for the type of player he is. Come off the bench when the other ball-dominant guys sit and control the ball a lot and volume shoot/score. That is also Terry's game. Where as someone like Lavine, Maxey or Herro have different style games that would vibe better with our primary rotation, IMO.

[JMAC3]

Feels like the devil you know going on here. All those guys you mentioned are just as bad if not worse then Terry on defense.

Clarkson started all 61 games for Utah this year, led them in usage and took 0.4 shots per game less than Lauri. Was pretty clearly a top 2 option at all times on the floor. Not some random heat check 6th man type for them (that was Sexton).

DPS- Defensive Points Saved
Clarkson -99.6......
Rozier -56.02.......
Maxey - 49.1.........
Lavine -42.28......
Herro -34.54......
Out of 523 players who played over 500 mins all were ranked 478 or worse....

Usage Ranks
Clarkson 27.8 first on team.
Rozier 26.9 second on team.
Lavine 28.3 first on team.
Maxey 24.1 third on team.
Herro 25.6 first on team

[amcoolio]

Monk is probably the better value, but Rozier is the better player. We are probably getting to the point where we undervalue Terry, which is expected because we were bad last year and guys had to play out of character and because of that the team really struggled. Terry, Oubre and PJ all went from being solid 3rd, 5th and 6th options to being our top 3. No surprise they struggled with efficiency most of the year.

Really when it comes to SGs in the league there are 3 main classifications.

Stars- Booker, Mitchell, Brown, SGA, Ant Edwards, Paul George
- of course we would want one of these guys, but you have to draft or trade 5 firsts for them.

Offensive minded- Rozier, Clarkson, Lavine, Poole, Simons, Maxey, Tyler Herro, Buddy Hield, Jalen Green, Jaden Ivey, Dinwiddie
- pretty much play one side of floor, can operate as offensive engine but a net negative on defense.

3D- Vassell, Klay, KCP, Gary Trent Jr, Quentin Grimes, Herb Jones, Gary Harris
- More catch and shoot types that can play some defense but overall they aren't doing much offensively without it being spoon fed.

Other- Bane, Dejounte Murray, THJ, Huerter, Grayson Allen, Reeves
- the outcasts who really don't fit the other groups IMO. Bane and Murray are steps below stars. THJ Huerter and Allen are spacers with poor defense. Reeves is a wildcard still.

Assuming the star list is off limits. Sure there are a few in the Offensive minded category that are more talented than Rozier but fit wise have same limitations. I mean are we a way better team if we move Terry for a guy in the 3D category? I am not sure it's a big change to be honest. Bane and Murray would both be good fits, but would be mad expensive to acquire.

Yes. I would trade Rozier for any of the 3D category (Harris would be a toss up, but the others I would much rather have)

Every single other player you listed, besides Hield and Grayson Allen and maybe Poole, I'd rather have than Rozier. Terry is in the bottom five of that list with Allen, Hield, Poole and Harris

[HornetJail]

Monk is probably the better value, but Rozier is the better player. We are probably getting to the point where we undervalue Terry, which is expected because we were bad last year and guys had to play out of character and because of that the team really struggled. Terry, Oubre and PJ all went from being solid 3rd, 5th and 6th options to being our top 3. No surprise they struggled with efficiency most of the year.

Really when it comes to SGs in the league there are 3 main classifications.

Stars- Booker, Mitchell, Brown, SGA, Ant Edwards, Paul George
- of course we would want one of these guys, but you have to draft or trade 5 firsts for them.

Offensive minded- Rozier, Clarkson, Lavine, Poole, Simons, Maxey, Tyler Herro, Buddy Hield, Jalen Green, Jaden Ivey, Dinwiddie
- pretty much play one side of floor, can operate as offensive engine but a net negative on defense.

3D- Vassell, Klay, KCP, Gary Trent Jr, Quentin Grimes, Herb Jones, Gary Harris
- More catch and shoot types that can play some defense but overall they aren't doing much offensively without it being spoon fed.

Other- Bane, Dejounte Murray, THJ, Huerter, Grayson Allen, Reeves
- the outcasts who really don't fit the other groups IMO. Bane and Murray are steps below stars. THJ Huerter and Allen are spacers with poor defense. Reeves is a wildcard still.

Assuming the star list is off limits. Sure there are a few in the Offensive minded category that are more talented than Rozier but fit wise have same limitations. I mean are we a way better team if we move Terry for a guy in the 3D category? I am not sure it's a big change to be honest. Bane and Murray would both be good fits, but would be mad expensive to acquire.

Solid post. There's a common theme with damn near everyone on this list outside of the stars, and a handful others in the other categories. They're going to struggle hard and give back a ton of their value if you make them run point.

Terry got paid his big bucks for what he did as a full time SG in a backcourt with LaMelo, Graham, and Monk. We then decided to let him crater his own value by playing him out of position for at least half his minutes in the two years following that, and it seems pretty likely we're headed for a third. In terms of actual talent right now, I'd only take LaVine (duh- should be in the star category), Maxey, Simons over him in that offensive minded category. And guess what, most of the rest will struggle if you try to make them play out of position.

The 3&D guys would be great pickups... but again, only if we have an actual PG in the second unit. If Terry can be split into a solid backup PG and a 3&D guy, then hell yeah let's go for it.

[Rich4114]

I basically think the ball needs to be taken out of Terry's hands more and put into someone elses more. I don't think that is possible with him on this team and this roster with this staff. I think that's possible if he went to a team like the Clippers or Philly.

[yosemiteben]

I basically think the ball needs to be taken out of Terry's hands more and put into someone elses more. I don't think that is possible with him on this team and this roster with this staff.

Based on what exactly? Last year was Cliff's first year with Terry on the roster. Who was he supposed to put the ball in the hands of when Melo, Miles, Gordo, and Cody were all unavailable? Terry's USG was a career high out of necessity.

I think it's a certainty that the ball will be out of Terry's hands more this season compared to last season.

[Rich4114]

I basically think the ball needs to be taken out of Terry's hands more and put into someone elses more. I don't think that is possible with him on this team and this roster with this staff.

Based on what exactly? Last year was Cliff's first year with Terry on the roster. Who was he supposed to put the ball in the hands of when Melo, Miles, Gordo, and Cody were all unavailable? Terry's USG was a career high out of necessity.

I think it's a certainty that the ball will be out of Terry's hands more this season compared to last season.

I was mostly basing it off of the previous season when we had more of a fully healthy roster to measure, though that was JB as HC not Ciff. I'm just tired of watching the flow and ball movement stop once it lands in Terry's hands and we have to hope he can make an acrobatic fading jump shot most of the time. When he's on, it works great but when his shot isn't falling he offers absolutely nothing else because of that. I know I sound like a Terry hater. I'm just not a fan of his game in this role, I think this team would benefit from swapping him out for a veteran who brings tough defense and high basketball IQ even if they aren't as much of a scorer to take his minus considering the rest of the combo guards sitting on the roster now.

[JustBuzzin]

I basically think the ball needs to be taken out of Terry's hands more and put into someone elses more. I don't think that is possible with him on this team and this roster with this staff. I think that's possible if he went to a team like the Clippers or Philly.

Being preaching this all offseason.

Terry needs to be traded. If not we are going to see a lot of iso ball with Terry and Miller standing in the corner.