How much of a role does skin color play in guys like West, Walton, Bird, Stockton being considered basketball savants?

[ceiling raiser]

This has become pretty pervasive.

Historically American white players have been viewed as more scrappy, higher IQ, and better shooters while American black players have been viewed as better dunkers, having better motors, and being more explosive. With the average role player, I think people can identify biases.

But what about some of the “greatest” players in the history of the pre-modern league? Is this something more sinister? A big blind spot? Either way…it’s a problem.

[OhayoKD]

I mean, kinda?

It probably plays --some-- role.

Bird being "the smartest defender ever" certainly isn't about basketball

[Jaivl]

I don't think West or Stockton are savants in the traditional sense (ofc they are excellent players), so it probably has something to do, maybe?

Racism (like politics in general) permeates everything in our daily lives, so I would not be surprised.

[rk2023]

Would say West is a savant when it pertains to his scoring acumen and certainly with his eye for talent as an evaluator. I feel like there would be *some* basketball fans out there whom meet what the OP is alluding to without a doubt. I think amongst nuanced fans like on here, the term savant / generational IQ gets tossed around frequently - and rightfully so. I see CP3, Green, Garnett, LBJ, Magic, Russell be touted for “figuring out basketball” and having generational IQs. They certainly should be receiving such praise, along with Walton/Bird/Logo.

[OhayoKD]

Would say West is a savant when it pertains to his scoring acumen and certainly with his eye for talent as an evaluator. I feel like there would be *some* basketball fans out there whom meet what the OP is alluding to without a doubt. I think amongst nuanced fans like on here, the term savant / generational IQ gets tossed around frequently - and rightfully so. I see CP3, Green, Garnett, LBJ, Magic, Russell be touted for “figuring out basketball” and having generational IQs. They certainly should be receiving such praise, along with Walton/Bird/Logo.

I'm betting it's a factor here too. "natural talent" is a bit of a tell.

The players you list were "savants" on both ends and probably more deserving of that distinction, but really they are given more techincal terms like "on-court captain", "floor general, "controller of tempo" act.

"genius", and "savant" are more direct and abstract, and in various sports(basketball included), seem be reserved for those of a different complexion

[eminence]

I think there's some merit here, a lot of the discourse in that area started around the later 50s and was highly likely trying to inflate white prospects. You just didn't see players intelligence referenced very often prior to significant integration of the league (with the concepts becoming more broadly mainstream - also tied to racism, but beyond my own understanding). Pretty much all the players of the first generation of the league were cast as stereotypical jocks - eg Mikan, a lawyer off the court, was cast as an intimidating giant that overwhelmed foes with size/physicality (some truth there).

I'm not sure of the level of influence at the star level. To my knowledge the progression of genius stars through league history in popular culture goes approximately like this (noting that the defense first impact guys often get the addendum of "defensive genius", while the offense first guys get to be just geniuses):
Russell
Oscar
Walton (I think somewhat inflated by the flash in the pan nature of his greatness, folks needed something to latch onto and there wasn't much readily apparent, so Bill must be a genius.)
Bird
Magic
Nash
LeBron
CP3?
Draymond?

Might need to let those last two ferment a bit more, vs a more historical view where they may be left behind. Additional guys from other eras would likely be included if I'd been live to see them and hear the commentary around them.

The league/media played into the Magic/Bird rivalry a lot (understandably, make that money), and seemed reluctant to re-extend the genius label after they had retired.

I haven't seen West/Stockton regularly spoken of in those terms as players and wouldn't say they were myself (West as a Front Office guy I've seen, but I pay less attention to that and couldn't say much around coaching/management). Referenced as smart players yes, but I think usually thought of as a level or two clearly below genius. I'd be a bit reluctant to extend the label to Walton, likely a bit of small sample hesitancy on my part.

I feel fine with labeling all of Russell/Oscar/Bird/Magic/Nash/LeBron/CP3/Dray as having a very very strong understanding of the game, whether genius/savant or whatever is the word that should be used to describe that, ehh, up to public opinion.

Looking at my list there, it does seem league/media reporting around the topic of basketball intelligence has at least some influence, as I doubt there was actually a distinct lack of genius between Magic/Bird and Nash/LeBron (Nash not really getting the label til mid career), and yet, I don't really have any names to fill into that gap. Any nominees?

[eminence]

Oh, and I forgot Jokic.

[Franco]

To some extent, it certainly does, and I don't think it's even exclusive to white players either. The amount of people that will flat-out ignore the insane conditioning of a player like Curry and call him "not that athletic" is bizarre to me.

It's kind of like the older NFL mentality of "black quarterbacks can't process information fast enough".

[70sFan]

I am just happy to live outside the US and to me all these race-related discussions are completely abstract.

[OhayoKD]

I am just happy to live outside the US and to me all these race-related discussions are completely abstract.

Does where you live(somewhere in europe iirc) not have a heavy interest in soccer? Because I think coded language is talked about there

[70sFan]

I am just happy to live outside the US and to me all these race-related discussions are completely abstract.

Does where you live(somewhere in europe iirc) not have a heavy interest in soccer? Because I think coded language is talked about there

There is a heavy interest in football in Poland... but our national league sucks. We don't really have any significant problems regarding racism here, despite what you may hear in some media.

[OhayoKD]

I am just happy to live outside the US and to me all these race-related discussions are completely abstract.

Does where you live(somewhere in europe iirc) not have a heavy interest in soccer? Because I think coded language is talked about there

There is a heavy interest in football in Poland... but our national league sucks. We don't really have any significant problems regarding racism here, despite what you may hear in some media.

Maybe it wasn't talked about in Poland, But i recall in african soccer circles, there was some uproar with how the commentators described Senegalese players as opposed to how they described Polish ones

[70sFan]

Does where you live(somewhere in europe iirc) not have a heavy interest in soccer? Because I think coded language is talked about there

There is a heavy interest in football in Poland... but our national league sucks. We don't really have any significant problems regarding racism here, despite what you may hear in some media.

Maybe it wasn't talked about in Poland, But i recall in african soccer circles, there was some uproar with how the commentators described Senegalese players as opposed to how they described Polish ones

Maybe there was something in the UK about it, I don't know. I know that black English player don't deal with such problems (at least I don't hear that, I stopped following football outside of national tournaments). So maybe there is some kind of harsh language regarding African players... though to be fair, they usually aren't as good as European ones.

[1993Playoffs]

A lot.

It’s rare to hear a black player to be considered a genius or savant even if they are better than said white player….

[rk2023]

To some extent, it certainly does, and I don't think it's even exclusive to white players either. The amount of people that will flat-out ignore the insane conditioning of a player like Curry and call him "not that athletic" is bizarre to me.

It's kind of like the older NFL mentality of "black quarterbacks can't process information fast enough".

More than his conditioning, Curry’s basketball intelligence is very under-mentioned by the mass.

[70sFan]

A lot.

It’s rare to hear a black player to be considered a genius or savant even if they are better than said white player….

I have been hearing that a lot about Magic, LeBron, Paul...

[1993Playoffs]

A lot.

It’s rare to hear a black player to be considered a genius or savant even if they are better than said white player….

I have been hearing that a lot about Magic, LeBron, Paul...

Magic yes. Lebron and CP3 people usually try to discredit their success

[Doctor MJ]

This has become pretty pervasive.

Historically American white players have been viewed as more scrappy, higher IQ, and better shooters while American black players have been viewed as better dunkers, having better motors, and being more explosive. With the average role player, I think people can identify biases.

But what about some of the “greatest” players in the history of the pre-modern league? Is this something more sinister? A big blind spot? Either way…it’s a problem.

I think "become" is the wrong word. I think we're going in the other direction where the stereotype existed and we're gradually chipping away to figure out which guys deserved it and which guys didn't.

So Bob Cousy, Jerry Lucas, Bill Bradley, Pete Maravich, etc. These are guys who were once painted with the same brush where more analytic study of the past has revealed that skepticism was warranted.

We may learn more things along these lines and discover a greater bias. Consider a scenario where a particular scorekeeper was revealed to be intensely racist with how he recorded his tallies. Something like that could totally change our views further.

With West & Baylor, for example, this was a thing I wondered when we saw their relative efficiencies. But you really can't fake the WOWY data, and West has arguably an even bigger edge there than you'd expect from box score analytics.

I'll also say that I don't really think of West as "the white guy" so much as "one of those '60s guys", and didn't want to accept any tall tales without analysis. As I've said before, I see 3 of the 5 main '60s guys as absolute basketball geniuses - Bill Russell, Oscar Robertson & Jerry West - and I'm frankly more interested in hammering into people the genius of Russell than I am the genius of West because I think Russell's is harder to grasp. (All the chips make people more likely to believe, but not necessarily understand.)

Walton & Bird - here I just feel like saying "Just watch how quickly they are making decisions as they play". This isn't the only kind of basketball intelligence, and it's not a guarantee of making the right decisions, but there's clearly something there if you're set to see such things when you watch.

One thing that I think is interesting when talking about Walton is the comparison with Kareem, because I think it really showcases that what we think about on-court BBIQ isn't anywhere near the only form of intelligence. Kareem is THE great intellect of NBA history, but on the court he doesn't have the improvisational genius of Walton - or eventual teammate Magic Johnson for that matter.

With Stockton I'm actually a relative skeptic compared to many, but what's undeniable is that he has an exceptionally large statistical footprint.

[70sFan]

A lot.

It’s rare to hear a black player to be considered a genius or savant even if they are better than said white player….

I have been hearing that a lot about Magic, LeBron, Paul...

Magic yes. Lebron and CP3 people usually try to discredit their success

I think you read too many haters takes.

Also, forgot about Russell, that's another one.

[f4p]

I am just happy to live outside the US and to me all these race-related discussions are completely abstract.

I feel pretty certain America didn't invent racism, lol. I remember reading an article where Clint Capela was so happy to be in America because the treatment of black people was apparently way better than in Switzerland when he was growing up.