RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #14 (Jerry West)

[Dr Positivity]

Not only is Mikan's longevity weaker but imo the last 3 years of it, the better years for competition, he's "only" Hakeem/Duncan level for his era. I don't have him pantsing the league from 48-51 as meaningful enough to put him that high. And his dominance during his best years isn't completely unheard of, I think Kareem vs early 70s players isn't THAT far off.

[OhayoKD]

Hmmm

This is pretty blatant strawmanning.
let's check:

-> Finals appearances were listed as an advantage over Oscar as if he is a better player because his team was in a separate conference from Bill's

Well that’s another straw man.

Well then I certainly shouldn't be able to find final appearances listed as an advantage in this very thread...

West probably upped his game even more in the playoffs, as compared to Oscar—which contributed to the Lakers getting to all those finals, even in seasons where their regular season performance wouldn’t make you think they’d get there.

Not sure how you came to the conclusion West's final appearances were not a contributing factor for some voter...

You: West wasn’t able to lead teams to the championship. “Would your models support that was a result of help? “
Me: Yes. Changing his help by just having them shoot at their own season average from the foul line in 1 game per series would have

Oh. You assumed that was directed at you. Maybe don't do that?

Here is an actual (implicit)strawman fwiw:

-> The same mythology of "iq" and "genius" we see with Bird(even on defense where it really doesn't apply)

And the majority of people agreed that the film analysis you provided actually supported that Bird was a high value offensive player

I do not recall Bird being disputed as a "high value offensive player". Nor did any of the replies respond to that assertion. What the majority of the posts did say(4 of 6) was that Ben using that clip as evidence he was creating a bunch off-ball via "gravity" was dubious. Here is an excerpt from the post with the most favorable evaluation of that play(excepting yours):

I wonder tho if this kind of play is the best example of bird off ball advantage over other more on-ball stars? Cause in principle gaining deep position for a catch or pass inside (through cutting or otherwise) and getting soft doubled is not particularly unique to "off ball runners" archetype of reggie millers or larry birds.

-> "he was 10 points away from 4 championships" but no commentary on how he was outscored in the conference finals for the ring he did win(despite clearly having better support than Kareem)

Oscar won one ring, but no commentary about how Oscar didn’t face healthy West in the conference finals for the ring he did win.

I do not recall making a point about Oscar hypothetically winning rings he did not win.

[Owly]

Interestingly, there was a real contingent that viewed Oscar as the GOAT player for some time. Not large, but not trivial. That contingent evaporated in the 90s when the Bulls started winning titles, but it couldn't have been entirely unfounded.

But what I wonder is...what happened between 1990-2023 for West to be viewed as Oscar's peer, and what data justifies them being viewed as peers?

It could. I'm not saying it was and it depends on who they were, their reasoning/methodology and the greater number perhaps the less likely (though if all following the same reasoning perhaps not, and truth is not a democracy). But yes for the most part published lists have seen a bit of separation between the two and consistently ranked in Oscar's favor (otoh, I'd say Simmons was the first I'd seen flip that order...just checked, Keith Thompson did it earlier ... but his numerical system had Heinsohn tied with West, above Robertson so..., don't think any other "published" list I've seen had them that way).

[lessthanjake]

Hmmm

This is pretty blatant strawmanning.
let's check:

-> Finals appearances were listed as an advantage over Oscar as if he is a better player because his team was in a separate conference from Bill's

Well that’s another straw man.

Well then I certainly shouldn't be able to find final appearances listed as an advantage in this very thread...

West probably upped his game even more in the playoffs, as compared to Oscar—which contributed to the Lakers getting to all those finals, even in seasons where their regular season performance wouldn’t make you think they’d get there.

Not sure how you came to the conclusion West's final appearances were not a contributing factor for some voter...

That’s a quote of me, but I think you’re pretty heavily misrepresenting it. My point was about actual *individual* playoff performances, not the mere fact of more finals appearances. I think that’s clear even from what you quoted (where I say West “upped his game even more in the playoffs” and simply noted that that “contributed” to the Lakers making all those Finals). But also, in the very post you quoted, my conclusion was to say: “ Ultimately, they’re very close, but I think I take West due to him seeming like he had a different gear in the playoffs that Oscar may not have had.” Which is obviously about individual play. I merely had mentioned all those finals appearances to note that that was likely at least in part caused by West having great individual playoff performances. The point was always centered around individual performance. So I do think it’d be a bit of a straw man to suggest I made an argument based primarily around Finals appearances. I do actually think that making the finals a bunch is an achievement that is relevant, but it simply wasn’t what my argument was centered around.

[OhayoKD]

Hmmm

This is pretty blatant strawmanning.
let's check:

Well that’s another straw man.

Well then I certainly shouldn't be able to find final appearances listed as an advantage in this very thread...

West probably upped his game even more in the playoffs, as compared to Oscar—which contributed to the Lakers getting to all those finals, even in seasons where their regular season performance wouldn’t make you think they’d get there.

Not sure how you came to the conclusion West's final appearances were not a contributing factor for some voter...

That’s a quote of me, but I think you’re pretty heavily misrepresenting it. My point was about actual *individual* playoff performances, not the mere fact of more finals appearances. I think that’s clear even from what you quoted (where I say West “upped his game even more in the playoffs” and simply noted that that “contributed” to the Lakers making all those Finals). But also, in the very post you quoted, my conclusion was to say: “ Ultimately, they’re very close, but I think I take West due to him seeming like he had a different gear in the playoffs that Oscar may not have had.” Which is obviously about individual play. I merely had mentioned all those finals appearances to note that that was likely at least in part caused by West having great individual playoff performances. The point was always centered around individual performance. So I do think it’d be a bit of a straw man to suggest I made an argument based primarily around Finals appearances. I do actually think that making the finals a bunch is an achievement that is relevant, but it simply wasn’t what my argument was centered around.

I mean, I specifically said "listed as an advantage", not "centered", though I guess I was a little strong with the second clause.

[lessthanjake]

I do not recall Bird being disputed as a "high value offensive player". Nor did any of the replies respond to that assertion. What the majority of the posts did say(4 of 6) was that Ben using that clip as evidence he was creating a bunch off-ball via "gravity" was dubious. Here is an excerpt from the post with the most favorable evaluation of that play(excepting yours):

I wonder tho if this kind of play is the best example of bird off ball advantage over other more on-ball stars? Cause in principle gaining deep position for a catch or pass inside (through cutting or otherwise) and getting soft doubled is not particularly unique to "off ball runners" archetype of reggie millers or larry birds.

This is off topic at this point, but I just want to point out that I recall that I made a more favorable evaluation of that play, so labeling the above as “the most favorable evaluation of that play(excepting [DraymondGold’s]” is not accurate IMO. And there may well be others that also were more favorable—I only remember my own evaluation.

[70sFan]

I think Oscar has a very interesting case for the most robust skillset in the league history and I don't think anything we've seen from him in the playoffs changes that. Oscar was a massive 6'5 220 lbs man (basically a forward body) who could handle the ball against KC Jones pressure with restricted ball-handling rules, while being the best playmaker in the league history up to that point. A lot of people rave about West shooting ability (rightfully so, he was a pull-up monster) but Oscar was arguably a better shooter and the very limited shooting data from trex suggests he's actually more accurate (though it could be useless given the sample). He was less known for that because he could force the issue inside more and he was a masterful post player as well. He was also the first player ever who mastered P&R play. I mean, you can't find any weakness in his offensive repertoire.

For people unfamiliar with prime Oscar game, here are a few montages I could find at the NBA.com... which means they have full games hidden in their archives:

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

[OhayoKD]

I do not recall Bird being disputed as a "high value offensive player". Nor did any of the replies respond to that assertion. What the majority of the posts did say(4 of 6) was that Ben using that clip as evidence he was creating a bunch off-ball via "gravity" was dubious. Here is an excerpt from the post with the most favorable evaluation of that play(excepting yours):

I wonder tho if this kind of play is the best example of bird off ball advantage over other more on-ball stars? Cause in principle gaining deep position for a catch or pass inside (through cutting or otherwise) and getting soft doubled is not particularly unique to "off ball runners" archetype of reggie millers or larry birds.

This is off topic at this point, but I just want to point out that I recall that I made a more favorable evaluation of that play, so labeling the above as “the most favorable evaluation of that play(excepting [DraymondGold’s]” is not accurate IMO. And there may well be others that also were more favorable—I only remember my own evaluation.

Your evaluation:

I’d say it was a pretty valuable play actually, since he basically got doubled off the ball, resulting in a teammate getting a very wide open shot. In today’s game, this sort of gravity would be more valuable, since that wide open shot would’ve inevitably been a three, but creating a wide open shot was still a really good thing back then.

Falco's evaluation:

Thanks

Is a interesting play, bird cut defintely opened up the defense for a jumper there. A moderately valuable play

I guess you emphasize that more so i can amend it to 2nd most favorable interpretation.

Both you and Falco agreed it wasn't the best example though(Falco took a stronger stance there). There were two-posters saying it wasn't worth anything and I guess I played the middle-man calling it secondary creation.

[HeartBreakKid]

Oscar really does look good on tape. I am always a bit surprised by people who favor modern players when they pick West over Robertson for that reason.

Oscar has a very modern rhythm and handle, kind of the ideal way to dribble with that rule set. In those regards, he is likely very underrated in terms of all time handles.

[Owly]

Not only is Mikan's longevity weaker but imo the last 3 years of it, the better years for competition, he's "only" Hakeem/Duncan level for his era. I don't have him pantsing the league from 48-51 as meaningful enough to put him that high. And his dominance during his best years isn't completely unheard of, I think Kareem vs early 70s players isn't THAT far off.

Think convention here has been to acknowledge NBL (I know I fought for it in the past). That gives Mikan another big (if incomplete due to contract issues) year with another title (1946-47 season) in what at that time was the better (play standard by talent and presumably continuity I think) league at that time.

[eminence]

.

Good Oscar clips 70s.

I really appreciate the velocity Oscar gets on some of those passes.

[ceiling raiser]

Do we have any data on height/weight of Oscar/West vs Jordan/Kobe?

[Dr Positivity]

Not only is Mikan's longevity weaker but imo the last 3 years of it, the better years for competition, he's "only" Hakeem/Duncan level for his era. I don't have him pantsing the league from 48-51 as meaningful enough to put him that high. And his dominance during his best years isn't completely unheard of, I think Kareem vs early 70s players isn't THAT far off.

Think convention here has been to acknowledge NBL (I know I fought for it in the past). That gives Mikan another big (if incomplete due to contract issues) year with another title (1946-47 season) in what at that time was the better (play standard by talent and presumably continuity I think) league at that time.

I thought his play might be less dominant in 47 than 48-51

[eminence]

Do we have any data on height/weight of Oscar/West vs Jordan/Kobe?

Height is usually reported as 6'5 and that seems fairly accurate to me. Weight I'm less sure on.

[ceiling raiser]

I think Oscar has a very interesting case for the most robust skillset in the league history and I don't think anything we've seen from him in the playoffs changes that. Oscar was a massive 6'5 220 lbs man (basically a forward body) who could handle the ball against KC Jones pressure with restricted ball-handling rules, while being the best playmaker in the league history up to that point. A lot of people rave about West shooting ability (rightfully so, he was a pull-up monster) but Oscar was arguably a better shooter and the very limited shooting data from trex suggests he's actually more accurate (though it could be useless given the sample). He was less known for that because he could force the issue inside more and he was a masterful post player as well. He was also the first player ever who mastered P&R play. I mean, you can't find any weakness in his offensive repertoire.

Was Oscar arguably as good a defender?

[70sFan]

Do we have any data on height/weight of Oscar/West vs Jordan/Kobe?

Coming from WCA research:

Jerry West 6'4" barefoot
Oscar Robertson 6'4" and 3/4
Kobe 6-4.75
MJ 6-4 and 7/8ths (let's just say 6-5 using a more even number)

Weight is harder, but I think Oscar played within 215-225 lbs range and was overall the beefest, while West had the lightest frame (though Kobe wasn't far behind before he started weight training).

[70sFan]

I think Oscar has a very interesting case for the most robust skillset in the league history and I don't think anything we've seen from him in the playoffs changes that. Oscar was a massive 6'5 220 lbs man (basically a forward body) who could handle the ball against KC Jones pressure with restricted ball-handling rules, while being the best playmaker in the league history up to that point. A lot of people rave about West shooting ability (rightfully so, he was a pull-up monster) but Oscar was arguably a better shooter and the very limited shooting data from trex suggests he's actually more accurate (though it could be useless given the sample). He was less known for that because he could force the issue inside more and he was a masterful post player as well. He was also the first player ever who mastered P&R play. I mean, you can't find any weakness in his offensive repertoire.

Was Oscar arguably as good a defender?

I don't think so, motivated Oscar was a fierce and physical man defender, but he's not as disruptive as a help defender.

[70sFan]

Oscar really does look good on tape. I am always a bit surprised by people who favor modern players when they pick West over Robertson for that reason.

Oscar has a very modern rhythm and handle, kind of the ideal way to dribble with that rule set. In those regards, he is likely very underrated in terms of all time handles.

I think they both look exceptionally well on the tape. It's really tough to pick one over the other, I usually have Oscar ahead strictly due to durability.

[Owly]

Not only is Mikan's longevity weaker but imo the last 3 years of it, the better years for competition, he's "only" Hakeem/Duncan level for his era. I don't have him pantsing the league from 48-51 as meaningful enough to put him that high. And his dominance during his best years isn't completely unheard of, I think Kareem vs early 70s players isn't THAT far off.

Think convention here has been to acknowledge NBL (I know I fought for it in the past). That gives Mikan another big (if incomplete due to contract issues) year with another title (1946-47 season) in what at that time was the better (play standard by talent and presumably continuity I think) league at that time.

I thought his play might be less dominant in 47 than 48-51

Very limited boxscore available and what looks like a large impact on arrival is slightly muddied by acquisition of McDermott around the same time. Still he's the league's ppg leader (16.5) then leads the playoffs (no minimum game requirement) in ppg upping it to 19.7 where he also leads field goals (made), free throws (made) and free throws (attempted). And he'd won MVP at the previous years World Tournament immediately after finishing college. Given everything we know about his production, the team's improvement and his play in the time before and after I would imagine he was fairly dominant.

[rk2023]

Oscar really does look good on tape. I am always a bit surprised by people who favor modern players when they pick West over Robertson for that reason.

Oscar has a very modern rhythm and handle, kind of the ideal way to dribble with that rule set. In those regards, he is likely very underrated in terms of all time handles.

I’d reckon that people (perhaps myself, I think both translate well as they’re both very very underrated athletic forces) take West in this conversation due to his defensive playmaking and ‘stop and go’ shotmaking ability.

Certainly Oscar’s frame, and athleticism corresponding with such - which includes a very disciplined handle, gives him a great argument here too.

I would reckon most of the PC board users high on Oscar/West are more or less era relative people anyways, at least from what I’m seeing.