RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #15 (Oscar Robertson)

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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #15 (Deadline 5:00AM PST on 8/17/23) 

Post#21 » by rk2023 » Mon Aug 14, 2023 10:12 pm

lessthanjake wrote:I also find it pretty intriguing that Karl Malone was part of some of the highest rORTG, playoff rORTG, and rDRTG teams in history (though I think the rDRTG part was more about Eaton). The playoff performance does it for me, I guess, but I have to say I don’t feel super great about this vote. I suspect it probably won’t matter since, as the most recent nominee, I doubt Karl Malone will get much traction this round, so the order I put these two guys in probably won’t matter.


When you mention "highest playoff rORTG teams" as a case in Malone's favor, am not sure where this is coming from (feel free to correct, if needed).

For Transparency: In such measures of value in a more career focused project as opposed to a 'best seasons' one, I am more of a fan of using three-year playoff samples. Here's how Malone stacks up in this regard.

Malone Three Year PS rORTGs (h/t Thinking Basketball):

Code: Select all

6.9, 1995-97 (93rd %ile)
6.0, 1990-92 (88th)
6.0, 1994-96 (88th)
5.2, 1991-93 (82nd)
5.0, 1992-94 (80th)
4.4, 1996-98 (75th)
3.9, 1993-95 (70th)


I would say solid, especially when considering some of the defensive results that correspond which grade Utah rather highly from a net rating standpoint, but nothing I personally would consider 'some of the highest' (could be semantics here).

Here's how Dirk stacks up (am listing values over the 3.9 threshold). Am citing this example as he's a fellow nominee and, just through speculation, could be competing with Malone and Robinson most closely. I see Oscar and Mikan as the front-runners, more or less, within the scope of the project's current state.

Dirk Three Year PS rORTGs (h/t Thinking Basketball):

Code: Select all

8.1, 2001-03 (97th %ile)
8.0, 2003-05 (97th)
7.8, 2002-04 (96th)
6.8, 2004-06 (92nd)
6.7, 2005-07 (92nd)
6.4, 2011-14 (90th)
6.3, 2009-11 (90th)
5.1, 2006-08 (81st)
5.1, 2010-12 (81st)
4.2, 2008-10 (73rd)
Mogspan wrote:I think they see the super rare combo of high IQ with freakish athleticism and overrate the former a bit, kind of like a hot girl who is rather articulate being thought of as “super smart.” I don’t know kind of a weird analogy, but you catch my drift.
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #15 (Deadline 5:00AM PST on 8/17/23) 

Post#22 » by lessthanjake » Mon Aug 14, 2023 10:38 pm

rk2023 wrote:
lessthanjake wrote:I also find it pretty intriguing that Karl Malone was part of some of the highest rORTG, playoff rORTG, and rDRTG teams in history (though I think the rDRTG part was more about Eaton). The playoff performance does it for me, I guess, but I have to say I don’t feel super great about this vote. I suspect it probably won’t matter since, as the most recent nominee, I doubt Karl Malone will get much traction this round, so the order I put these two guys in probably won’t matter.


When you mention "highest playoff rORTG teams" as a case in Malone's favor, am not sure where this is coming from (feel free to correct, if needed).


Well, here’s where I’m coming from on that. If we look at the Thinking Basketball data, we get the following:

1. The 1998 Jazz had the 7th best regular season rORTG of all time. The only teams ahead are a few Nash seasons, the 2016 Warriors, and a Jordan Bulls season. The 1997 Jazz are also 18th all time.

2. By three-year regular season rORTG, the 1996-1998 Jazz had the 5th highest three-year regular season rORTG of all time (only behind a few Nash teams and the peak Warriors).

3. The 1989 Jazz had the 20th best regular season rDRTG of all time.

4. By three-year regular season rDRTG, the 1987-1989 Jazz had the 23rd best three-year regular season rDRTG of all time. And the teams ahead of them are almost all just different iterations of the same few teams (i.e. Russell Celtics, Duncan Spurs, Garnett Celtics, and Ewing Knicks).

5. My reference to “playoff rORTG” was a mistake. I meant to say playoff rNetRTG. The 1995-1997 Jazz and 1996-1998 Jazz are 26th and 27th all time in three-year playoff rNetRTG. And there is not a single team above them that did not win at least one title in the relevant three-year timeframe. Basically, the late 1990’s Jazz had the best playoff rNetRTG of any non-champion ever.
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #15 (Deadline 5:00AM PST on 8/17/23) 

Post#23 » by rk2023 » Mon Aug 14, 2023 10:41 pm

lessthanjake wrote:
rk2023 wrote:
lessthanjake wrote:I also find it pretty intriguing that Karl Malone was part of some of the highest rORTG, playoff rORTG, and rDRTG teams in history (though I think the rDRTG part was more about Eaton). The playoff performance does it for me, I guess, but I have to say I don’t feel super great about this vote. I suspect it probably won’t matter since, as the most recent nominee, I doubt Karl Malone will get much traction this round, so the order I put these two guys in probably won’t matter.


When you mention "highest playoff rORTG teams" as a case in Malone's favor, am not sure where this is coming from (feel free to correct, if needed).


Well, here’s where I’m coming from on that. If we look at the Thinking Basketball data, we get the following:

1. The 1998 Jazz had the 7th best regular season rORTG of all time. The only teams ahead are a few Nash seasons, the 2016 Warriors, and a Jordan Bulls season. The 1997 Jazz are also 18th all time.

2. By three-year regular season rORTG, the 1996-1998 Jazz had the 5th highest three-year regular season rORTG of all time (only behind a few Nash teams and the peak Warriors).

3. The 1989 Jazz had the 20th best regular season rDRTG of all time.

4. By three-year regular season rDRTG, the 1987-1989 Jazz had the 23rd best three-year regular season rDRTG of all time. And the teams ahead of them are almost all just different iterations of the same few teams (i.e. Russell Celtics, Duncan Spurs, Garnett Celtics, and Ewing Knicks).

5. My reference to “playoff rORTG” was a mistake. I meant to say playoff rNetRTG. The 1995-1997 Jazz and 1996-1998 Jazz are 26th and 27th all time in three-year playoff rNetRTG. And there is not a single team above them that did not win at least one title in the relevant three-year timeframe. Basically, the late 1990’s Jazz had the best playoff rNetRTG of any non-champion ever.


I see. Am certainly aware of Malone's RS value and believe if that's more firm a criteria for me, he would be higher on this list. Am not the highest in the room in terms of how much leeway I provide when assessing his playoff data, but don't think I'm amongst the most critical of his tail-off, FWIW.
Mogspan wrote:I think they see the super rare combo of high IQ with freakish athleticism and overrate the former a bit, kind of like a hot girl who is rather articulate being thought of as “super smart.” I don’t know kind of a weird analogy, but you catch my drift.
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #15 (Deadline 5:00AM PST on 8/17/23) 

Post#24 » by lessthanjake » Mon Aug 14, 2023 10:49 pm

rk2023 wrote:
lessthanjake wrote:
rk2023 wrote:
When you mention "highest playoff rORTG teams" as a case in Malone's favor, am not sure where this is coming from (feel free to correct, if needed).


Well, here’s where I’m coming from on that. If we look at the Thinking Basketball data, we get the following:

1. The 1998 Jazz had the 7th best regular season rORTG of all time. The only teams ahead are a few Nash seasons, the 2016 Warriors, and a Jordan Bulls season. The 1997 Jazz are also 18th all time.

2. By three-year regular season rORTG, the 1996-1998 Jazz had the 5th highest three-year regular season rORTG of all time (only behind a few Nash teams and the peak Warriors).

3. The 1989 Jazz had the 20th best regular season rDRTG of all time.

4. By three-year regular season rDRTG, the 1987-1989 Jazz had the 23rd best three-year regular season rDRTG of all time. And the teams ahead of them are almost all just different iterations of the same few teams (i.e. Russell Celtics, Duncan Spurs, Garnett Celtics, and Ewing Knicks).

5. My reference to “playoff rORTG” was a mistake. I meant to say playoff rNetRTG. The 1995-1997 Jazz and 1996-1998 Jazz are 26th and 27th all time in three-year playoff rNetRTG. And there is not a single team above them that did not win at least one title in the relevant three-year timeframe. Basically, the late 1990’s Jazz had the best playoff rNetRTG of any non-champion ever.


I see. Am certainly aware of Malone's RS value and believe if that's more firm a criteria for me, he would be higher on this list. Am not the highest in the room in terms of how much leeway I provide when assessing his playoff data, but don't think I'm amongst the most critical of his tail-off, FWIW.


Yeah, I’m not sure what to make of Malone’s playoff performances. It’s a big reason I’m not voting for him here. But the fact that his late 1990’s Jazz teams had the highest three-year rNetRTG of any non-champion ever does seem like important information to me. That era for the Jazz may well be the best team to ever not win a title, even when we just look at the team’s playoff performance. I do think they were pretty unlucky not to get one. Which then makes me a bit less hard on Karl Malone than I otherwise would be, because he played well enough in the playoffs for his team to actually do super well in the playoffs at their peak and I think they could’ve won a title if they’d not overlapped with one of the best few teams of all time.
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #15 (Deadline 5:00AM PST on 8/17/23) 

Post#25 » by rk2023 » Mon Aug 14, 2023 10:58 pm

lessthanjake wrote:
rk2023 wrote:
lessthanjake wrote:
Well, here’s where I’m coming from on that. If we look at the Thinking Basketball data, we get the following:

1. The 1998 Jazz had the 7th best regular season rORTG of all time. The only teams ahead are a few Nash seasons, the 2016 Warriors, and a Jordan Bulls season. The 1997 Jazz are also 18th all time.

2. By three-year regular season rORTG, the 1996-1998 Jazz had the 5th highest three-year regular season rORTG of all time (only behind a few Nash teams and the peak Warriors).

3. The 1989 Jazz had the 20th best regular season rDRTG of all time.

4. By three-year regular season rDRTG, the 1987-1989 Jazz had the 23rd best three-year regular season rDRTG of all time. And the teams ahead of them are almost all just different iterations of the same few teams (i.e. Russell Celtics, Duncan Spurs, Garnett Celtics, and Ewing Knicks).

5. My reference to “playoff rORTG” was a mistake. I meant to say playoff rNetRTG. The 1995-1997 Jazz and 1996-1998 Jazz are 26th and 27th all time in three-year playoff rNetRTG. And there is not a single team above them that did not win at least one title in the relevant three-year timeframe. Basically, the late 1990’s Jazz had the best playoff rNetRTG of any non-champion ever.


I see. Am certainly aware of Malone's RS value and believe if that's more firm a criteria for me, he would be higher on this list. Am not the highest in the room in terms of how much leeway I provide when assessing his playoff data, but don't think I'm amongst the most critical of his tail-off, FWIW.


Yeah, I’m not sure what to make of Malone’s playoff performances. It’s a big reason I’m not voting for him here. But the fact that his late 1990’s Jazz teams had the highest three-year rNetRTG of any non-champion ever does seem like important information to me. That era for the Jazz may well be the best team to ever not win a title, even when we just look at the team’s playoff performance. I do think they were pretty unlucky not to get one. Which then makes me a bit less hard on Karl Malone than I otherwise would be, because he played well enough in the playoffs for his team to actually do super well in the playoffs at their peak and I think they could’ve won a title if they’d not overlapped with one of the best few teams of all time.


They're definitely up there along with the 05-07 Suns, 12-16 Thunder (their data less consistent due to Durant/Westbrook injuries), and 90s Sonics - though the latter-most had some rather disappointing early exits.
Mogspan wrote:I think they see the super rare combo of high IQ with freakish athleticism and overrate the former a bit, kind of like a hot girl who is rather articulate being thought of as “super smart.” I don’t know kind of a weird analogy, but you catch my drift.
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #15 (Deadline 5:00AM PST on 8/17/23) 

Post#26 » by MyUniBroDavis » Mon Aug 14, 2023 11:39 pm

Might be an unpopular take, but with it being 100% confirmed, #15 is too high for Karl Malone when bro was content with 12
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #15 (Deadline 5:00AM PST on 8/17/23) 

Post#27 » by MyUniBroDavis » Mon Aug 14, 2023 11:46 pm

Like idk man if we’re knocking some guys like wilt for example, with clashing with coaches and general off the court stuff


Like damn bro I get it didn’t effect the team but her age was legit on a clock that’s nasty
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #15 (Deadline 5:00AM PST on 8/17/23) 

Post#28 » by OhayoKD » Mon Aug 14, 2023 11:50 pm

MyUniBroDavis wrote:Like idk man if we’re knocking some guys like wilt for example, with clashing with coaches and general off the court stuff


Like damn bro I get it didn’t effect the team but her age was legit on a clock that’s nasty

Are you saying that impregnating a child and then refusing to take responsibility might, possibly, reflect poorly on Malone's "intangibles"?

Perish the thought
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #15 (Deadline 5:00AM PST on 8/17/23) 

Post#29 » by MyUniBroDavis » Tue Aug 15, 2023 12:24 am

OhayoKD wrote:
MyUniBroDavis wrote:Like idk man if we’re knocking some guys like wilt for example, with clashing with coaches and general off the court stuff


Like damn bro I get it didn’t effect the team but her age was legit on a clock that’s nasty

Are you saying that impregnating a child and then refusing to take responsibility might, possibly, reflect poorly on Malone's "intangibles"?

Perish the thought


Bro should tangibly be in prison
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #15 (Deadline 5:00AM PST on 8/17/23) 

Post#30 » by One_and_Done » Tue Aug 15, 2023 12:28 am

MyUniBroDavis wrote:Like idk man if we’re knocking some guys like wilt for example, with clashing with coaches and general off the court stuff


Like damn bro I get it didn’t effect the team but her age was legit on a clock that’s nasty

That's completely irrelevant. I think she also might have been 13, but either way irrelevant.
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #15 (Deadline 5:00AM PST on 8/17/23) 

Post#31 » by falcolombardi » Tue Aug 15, 2023 12:30 am

One_and_Done wrote:
MyUniBroDavis wrote:Like idk man if we’re knocking some guys like wilt for example, with clashing with coaches and general off the court stuff


Like damn bro I get it didn’t effect the team but her age was legit on a clock that’s nasty

That's completely irrelevant. I think she also might have been 13, but either way irrelevant.


If karl malone crime happened today or was not swept under the rug at the time he would have been in jail and unable to play basketball so it is as relevant as any other off court issue that affects a player impact or availability. Except way worse than all of them as it will ruin your team brand, locker room, etc

I will take wilt coaching issues 1000/10 times over karl malone likelyhood of going to jail for rape.

I will take lebron trade rumours drama over 2004 kobe potential jail crime drama

Etc, etc

I do exceptions tho when the player off court issue that derails their impact is somethingh unfair lile magic aids situation or players who suffer from being outspoken against racism
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #15 (Deadline 5:00AM PST on 8/17/23) 

Post#32 » by MyUniBroDavis » Tue Aug 15, 2023 12:52 am

One_and_Done wrote:
MyUniBroDavis wrote:Like idk man if we’re knocking some guys like wilt for example, with clashing with coaches and general off the court stuff


Like damn bro I get it didn’t effect the team but her age was legit on a clock that’s nasty

That's completely irrelevant. I think she also might have been 13, but either way irrelevant.


She gave birth when she was 13

Whether she’s 12 or 13 is irrelevant bro was a child
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #15 (Deadline 5:00AM PST on 8/17/23) 

Post#33 » by One_and_Done » Tue Aug 15, 2023 1:01 am

It's irrelevant because it had nil on court impact. If it happened today maybe it unfolds differently. Maybe Malone is morr careful because of the different environment. Maybe he does a better job hushing it up until the statute of limitations passes. Maybe he never sleeps with her. It's too speculative, much like the 'maybe Walton would be healthier with today's medicine', or 'maybe KG develops a 3pt shot'.
Warspite wrote:Billups was a horrible scorer who could only score with an open corner 3 or a FT.
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #15 (Deadline 5:00AM PST on 8/17/23) 

Post#34 » by falcolombardi » Tue Aug 15, 2023 1:04 am

One_and_Done wrote:It's irrelevant because it had nil on court impact. If it happened today maybe it unfolds differently. Maybe Malone is morr careful because of the different environment. Maybe he does a better job hushing it up until the statute of limitations passes. Maybe he never sleeps with her. It's too speculative, much like the 'maybe Walton would be healthier with today's medicine', or 'maybe KG develops a 3pt shot'.



Raping kids like malone is a serious off court issue whether it gets caught or not, that he got lucky with his children rape shouldnt change that

If you are evaluatint how players translate across eras this is way more relevant than even injury issues as it is somethingh that stops a career completely
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #15 (Deadline 5:00AM PST on 8/17/23) 

Post#35 » by One_and_Done » Tue Aug 15, 2023 1:52 am

By that logic we could remove almost every old timer because they'd be 'me too'd' out of the league for inappropriate comments/behavior. His off court stuff didn't have any actual on court effect, his team mates didn't care. Nor is it clear he couldn't skate out of it in the modern day too. Trump was just president. I have every confidence it could be hushed up, but it's just too speculative either way.
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #15 (Deadline 5:00AM PST on 8/17/23) 

Post#36 » by f4p » Tue Aug 15, 2023 2:06 am

Voting Post
1. George Mikan

Nomination
Nikola Jokic



Mikan: before this project, i figured i'd be voting for george mikan once we got everyone else out of the way. that's what you do. you vote for all the people who have won an alpha championship, throw in some longevity guys whose careers you remember real well, and then you eventually vote for "that guy". mikan. guy who played in the 40's. with the plumbers. and not even the good plumbers.

but then you think about it, and the guy started his nba career 12 years before west and oscar. those guys played in a modern league, right? and they were nowhere close to the era-relative dominance of mikan. like, not even a little. and then you go back a little further. bill russell won a title in 1957 as a rookie, and we all just lump that in with his other 10 titles. all from the modern nba, right? and yet just 3 years earlier, mikan won a title as the best player in the league. could the league have changed that much? it's not like the league suddenly became massively more popular and money started flooding in and the 1957 talent pool swamped the 1954 talent pool.

while i do think it's reasonable to think that there was a fairly rapid increase in the league talent in the early days, it's hard to think that titles in 1953 and 1954 could really be that different from a title in 1957.

obviously, if you are going to play in the weakest era, perhaps weakest by a bit, you better absolutely dominate. and mikan does. enough that i think that's it's certainly right to start talking about him now. we are talking about west and oscar, and they are seemingly fairly distant 3rd/4th in their era. is a clear cut #1, arguably a bill russell-level winner with wilt chamberlain-level stats, from just 12 years before not better than them? there obviously isn't much to go on as far as stats or videotape for mikan, but what we do have in stats is dominant.

once they start counting minutes in 1952, which is after the lane-widening, mikan leads the league in PER for the next 3 years. actually peaking at 29.0 in 1954. he finishes 2nd, 1st, and 3rd in WS48.

in the playoffs, he leads the league in PER all 3 years. he finishes 3rd, 1st, and 1st in WS48.

in fact, in 1954, the year that is only 3 years before bill russell wins his first title, mikan sets the playoff record for PER (33.6) and WS48 (0.391), records which would stand for a multi-series playoff run until 2009 lebron. the 0.391 WS48 is just enormous. so he had the most statistically dominant playoffs for most of NBA history while winning a title, including winning as an SRS underdog in the finals against +4.3 team.

and of course, by all accounts this is the weak part of his career. from 1949-1951, he average 28.0 ppg on 41.7 FG% compared to 20.7 ppg and 38.8 FG% from 1952-1954. the league was a little faster-paced in the earlier 3 year era, but considering the gulf between these stats and given that he was leading the league in basically everything from '52-'54, he was almost certainly having the highest PER seasons in history from '49-'51. he played 40 mpg in 1952. even if we assume he played 43 mpg in 1949, 1950, and 1951, his WS48 in the regular season would beat 1972 kareem all 3 years for the nba record.

in the playoffs, the statistical difference between '49-'51 and '52-'54 is basically the same. so again, almost certainly at least in 2nd all-time in PER behind 2009 lebron and possibly in first. even if he played all 48 minutes in 1949, he would have the WS48 record at 0.420. so mostly like somewhere around 0.450 WS48 if he played 45 minutes. only 1951 shows a drop off.

and what probably impressed me the most when i started looking at numbers before this project, things that were supposed to impress me about hakeem, mikan stands out as an amazing playoff riser.

Actual Championships vs Expected Championships - 5 vs 2.31 (2.69 delta is 7th), +116% is 13th

how did this happen? well, playoff resiliency. i looked at the last project's Top 33 (just stopped at pippen due to time and less interest in the players below him) plus newer guys like jokic, giannis, embiid, and kawhi and then put in tatum and butler. i would've put in doncic but i only did ages 22-35 and doncic only had one season (though he would have led the list below).

all the data is from ages 22 to 35 and it looks at the BBRef stats PER, WS48, BPM, and TS% and compares each year to the regular season. the resilience at the end is just an average of the normalized increase/decrease for each value. +1 is a top 95% value and -1 is a bottom 6.5% value (couldn't use 5% because the lower values were so low that they were making the average season as slightly "resilient"). for playoff runs shorter than 10 games, the final value was multiplied by "Games/10" so a 5 game, 1 round playoffs would get weighed at 50%. the table is their career average (each playoff run weighed equally to essentially average your resiliency from year to year). mikan comes in 3rd behind kawhi and hakeem. so the guy who absolutely kills regular season stats also shows up as one of the great individual playoff risers ever. and he's a huge team riser as well.

Code: Select all

Rank   Player Name             Career Avg       
1      Kawhi Leonard           0.4561           
2      Hakeem Olajuwon         0.3315           
3      George Mikan            0.3246           
4      Lebron James            0.2747           
5      Bill Russell            0.2548           
6      Walt Frazier            0.2318           
7      Jerry West              0.2142           
8      Michael Jordan          0.2081           
9      Tim Duncan              0.166             
10     Magic Johnson           0.0968           
11     Scottie Pippen          0.0963           
12     Oscar Robertson         0.0865           
13     Kobe Bryant             0.0856           
14     Charles Barkley         0.0779           
15     Kareem Abdul-Jabbar     0.0554           
16     Dirk Nowitzki           0.0534           
17     Jayson Tatum            0.0247           
18     Nikola Jokic            0.0205           
19     Shaquille O'neal        0.0179           
20     Moses Malone            0.0093           
21     Dwyane Wade             -0.0021           
22     Chris Paul              -0.0156           
23     Julius Erving           -0.0231           
24     Jimmy Butler            -0.0341           
25     Wilt Chamberlain        -0.0851           
26     Kevin Garnett           -0.1115           
27     Larry Bird              -0.1327           
28     Kevin Durant            -0.1435           
29     Patrick Ewing           -0.1446           
30     David Robinson          -0.1552           
31     Steve Nash              -0.1582           
32     Stephen Curry           -0.1613           
33     Bob Pettit              -0.1624           
34     John Stockton           -0.182           
35     Giannis Antetokounmpo   -0.1975           
36     James Harden            -0.1982           
37     Karl Malone             -0.2959           
38     Joel Embiid             -0.533           



the following table shows how much better a player was in the playoffs to explain how many championships they won. well, it turns out for mikan it would be a massive 13.5 wins per season or 5.0 SRS. even above hakeem.

Image

won like russell, dominated stats like wilt, playoff riser like hakeem. at some point, winning 7 titles in 8 years, dominating basically every regular season stat that was available, dominating every playoff stat that was available, being one of the great playoff risers ever, and still basically being able to do it all within 3 years of bill russell entering the nba, tells me mikan needs to be above other players from the league's first 25 years who weren't nearly as dominant in their era.



The Other Nominees
As you can see in the resiliency table, Karl Malone is way ahead for biggest postseason faller other than Embiid (who hasn't finished his career). I didn't break it down here, but on TS%, he has a negative score in 13 of his 15 playoffs and just based on TS% his score would go from -0.2959 to about -0.50. So just a truly huge faller in TS%. Robinson fares better for his career at 30th place with a -0.1552 but it's largely on the back of his Duncan years. In his best years of 1994-96 he's at -0.4904, so terrible in the years it mattered most, and that's with a nice boost from an easy series in 1996, so he was arguably even worse when it really mattered. Since I've decided to table West and Oscar for now, that probably leaves me voting for Dirk next thanks to his alpha championship and his huge performance against the Spurs in 2006. Honestly, not sure if I shouldn't just start voting for Jokic.
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #15 (Deadline 5:00AM PST on 8/17/23) 

Post#37 » by rk2023 » Tue Aug 15, 2023 2:24 am

70sFan wrote:.


From 70sFan's study originating aa while back on how players fare against various defenses (unfortunately, Oscar and Mikan aren't listed).

Over +2.0 rDRtg - Bad Defense
From +2.0 to -2.0 rDRtg - Average Defense
From -2.0 to -4.0 rDRtg - Good Defense
From -4.0 to -7.0 rDRtg - Elite Defense
Below -7.0 rDRtg - All-Time Great Defense



David Robinson (1990-98):

RS: 37.4 mpg, 11.6 rpg,3.0 apg, 2.9 tov, 25.1 ppg on 52.4% FG, 74.5% FT and 59.1% TS (+5.61% rTS)
Against Bad Defenses (12.90% of playoffs games): 38.8 mpg, 12.7 rpg, 2.5 apg, 3.1 tov, 27.9 ppg on 60.6% FG, 85.1% FT and 67.8% TS (13.96% rTS)
Against Average Defenses (56.54% of playoffs games): 39.4 mpg, 11.6 rpg, 2.8 apg, 3.1 tov, 23.6 ppg on 46.4% FG, 71.8% FT, 53.8% TS (-0.04% rTS)
Against Good Defenses (30.65% of playoffs games): 39.4 mpg, 12.8 rpg, 3.3 apg, 2.4 tov, 21.0 ppg on 45.9% FG, 64.8% FT and 51.7% TS (-1.54% rTS)
Against Elite Defenses (0.00% of playoffs games): --
Against All-Time Great Defenses (0.00% of playoffs games): --


Dirk Nowitzki (2001-11):

RS: 37.4 mpg, 8.8 rpg, 2.8 apg, 2.0 tov, 24.3 ppg on 47.9% FG, 38.5% 3FG, 88.2% FT and 58.6% TS (+5.43% rTS)
Against Bad Defenses (4.03% of playoffs games): 42.4 mpg, 11.8 rpg, 1.4 apg, 1.2 tov, 26.6 ppg on 45.0% FG, 46.7% 3FG, 85.7% FT and 56.1% TS (+4.53% rTS)
Against Average Defenses (48.39% of playoffs games): 41.7 mpg, 10.4 rpg, 2.7 apg, 2.5 tov, 27.4 ppg on 46.7% FG, 39.1% 3FG, 88.4% FT, 59.4% TS (+6.08% rTS)
Against Good Defenses (19.35% of playoffs games): 40.6 mpg, 9.8 rpg, 2.6 apg, 2.5 tov, 25.8 ppg on 46.8% FG, 45.9% 3FG 94.5% FT and 57.8% TS (+4.38% rTS)
Against Elite Defenses (28.23% of playoffs games): 41.1 mpg, 10.6 rpg, 2.6 apg, 2.0 tov, 23.4 ppg on 45.5% FG, 29.3% 3FG, 88.4% FT and 57.4% TS (+4.41% rTS)
Against All-Time Great Defenses (0.00% of playoffs games): --


Karl Malone (1989-01):

RS: 37.9 mpg, 10.4 rpg, 3.7 apg, 3.0 tov, 26.9 ppg on 52.6% FG, 75.9% FT and 59.1% TS (+5.98% rTS)
Against Bad Defenses (3.50% of playoffs games): 39.8 mpg, 12.6 rpg, 1.6 apg, 2.8 tov, 26.6 ppg on 46.1% FG, 83.0% FT and 54.2% TS (+1.81% rTS)
Against Average Defenses (33.57% of playoffs games): 41.0 mpg, 11.1 rpg, 3.0 apg, 3.0 tov, 28.6 ppg on 47.9% FG, 78.9% FT, 55.5% TS (+2.58% rTS)
Against Good Defenses (21.68% of playoffs games): 41.6 mpg, 11.5 rpg, 2.8 apg, 2.9 tov, 26.5 ppg on 43.7% FG, 80.5% FT and 52.5% TS (-0.79 rTS%)
Against Elite Defenses (41.26% of playoffs games): 41.7 mpg, 11.0 rpg, 3.9 apg, 2.7 tov, 25.4 ppg on 46.8% FG, 67.0% FT and 51.5% TS (-1.56% rTS)
Against All-Time Great Defenses (0.00% of playoffs games): --
Mogspan wrote:I think they see the super rare combo of high IQ with freakish athleticism and overrate the former a bit, kind of like a hot girl who is rather articulate being thought of as “super smart.” I don’t know kind of a weird analogy, but you catch my drift.
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #15 (Deadline 5:00AM PST on 8/17/23) 

Post#38 » by Colbinii » Tue Aug 15, 2023 2:46 am

Something interesting about Dirk's offensive brilliance--Regardless of teammates, coach, or league environment, he was perfectly consistent.

I was looking at Dirk's On-Court Ortg from 2001-2011 in comparison to Kobe's [Don't worry, this isn't a Kobe bashing post] and to League Average as well and something actually blew my mind.

First, here is the link to my google docs chart.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vQ6wvcRFLqge0FLCbWDiygDoBziCVVelUNRhs0Z88LmONRnSXxrrP9Ae0VGYpDuTdUigYmNJIVZUa-6/pubchart?oid=466864322&format=interactive

What you will notice is for Dirk his R^2 is .003. Which is essentially a perfect straight line.

What does that mean?

It means that regardless of coach, teammate, or league environment [In this sample ranging from 102.8 to 108.3 Lg Avg Ortg], Dirk Nowitzki was consistently producing offenses in the 112-113 range [+4-+10 range during this sample] when on the court. But man, that is a perfectly straight line--and look at it compared to Kobe! Kobe's essentially increased the longer he was in the league--and finally blossomed when Pau Gasol and Lamar Odom came along--and like League Average Ortg, Kobe's On-Court Ortg increases as the League's On-Court Ortg increased.

Spoiler:
Colbinii wrote:One of the key reasons I have Dirk/Oscar ahead of West/Robinson/Durant is because of the role of an offensive catalyst.

I like to think of an offensive catalyst as a player who stirs the drink offensively. He is the nucleus to the offense, he causes [precipitates] the offense. LeBron James is an easy example of this to picture with LeBron Ball, where LeBron uses up 30+% of possessions and produces an astronomically efficient offense with simply some shooters and a rim finisher. Magic, Curry and Nash are three others who can easily be pictured in the role of an offensive catalyst [as you can see, they come in different shapes and sizes and affect the game differently]. I can very easily see Oscar and Dirk in this mold as well.

However, when it comes to players like Jordan, Kobe, Durant and to a lesser-extent West, they are like an Enzyme in that they can increase the effectiveness and efficiency of an offense [or reaction] but aren't the reason for the offense itself.

To me, this differentiation isn't easy but it is important when comparing and identifying players at the highest level.
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #15 (Deadline 5:00AM PST on 8/17/23) 

Post#39 » by jalengreen » Tue Aug 15, 2023 3:08 am

MyUniBroDavis wrote:Like idk man if we’re knocking some guys like wilt for example, with clashing with coaches and general off the court stuff


Like damn bro I get it didn’t effect the team but her age was legit on a clock that’s nasty


I suspect people take it into account tbh whether intentionally or not. Even if a person tries to ignore it because they don't think it's relevant for player evaluation, I wouldn't be surprised if it subconsciously impacted their rankings of Kobe or Malone, as the examples that come to mind first.
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #15 (Deadline 5:00AM PST on 8/17/23) 

Post#40 » by MyUniBroDavis » Tue Aug 15, 2023 3:14 am

jalengreen wrote:
MyUniBroDavis wrote:Like idk man if we’re knocking some guys like wilt for example, with clashing with coaches and general off the court stuff


Like damn bro I get it didn’t effect the team but her age was legit on a clock that’s nasty


I suspect people take it into account tbh whether intentionally or not. Even if a person tries to ignore it because they don't think it's relevant for player evaluation, I wouldn't be surprised if it subconsciously impacted their rankings of Kobe or Malone, as the examples that come to mind first.



I get that man but if bro consciously decides to impregnate children I shall consciously decide to rank him lower lol

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