Is Kobe given the most flack of any star? Highlighting inconsistent arguments against him.

[sashaturiaf]

You're right. As a whole Kobe is severely underappreciated on here. Kobe being in the goat discussion, being top 3, being top 5, that's all common takes at least for people my age if you actually *talk* to people, and no nerd raging behind the keyboard at each other isn't talking.


Yet on realgm if you say Kobe is top 3 all time people will huff and puff like you committed blasphemy. Like how it's impossible for someone as accomplished and legendary as Kobe can't be in that discussion despite it being subjective at end of day.

I think realgm, especially the PC board should to get off their excel spreadsheets for real. But hey that's their call, I can't tell somebody how to live their life

[flytimes11]

I think the discussion around Kobe suffers in the same way discussion around other players with big "player-only" fanbases does, like LeBron, Jordan, Iverson, and Melo. These guys all have large groups of people who are fans principally of them as players as opposed to the teams they play for, and as such, this subset of their fanbases often make outrageous claims in favor of their player, often denigrating the efforts of their teammates.

That so many "Kobe-only" fans thrust him into the GOAT conversion, often with wild hyperbole, leads to a reflexive pushback in response that often becomes just as hyperbolic and toxic. Genuine discussion around Kobe is very hard to have as a result.

Broadly, I'd say the general pluses for Kobe are that he had great longevity as a top-10 or top-5 player in the league, that his playoff performance was largely robust (with a few notable exceptions as is the case for almost everyone), and that he proved it was possible to win a championship with him as the lead player. I'd say the cons can largely be aggregated into the fact that while he has a good statistical footprint, it generally falls short of where he's usually considered in an all-time sense. I'm not sure there are many (if any) career-spanning metrics that put him in the top 10 of all time, so those who want to put him there generally are swimming upstream against the data to make that argument.

I appreciate what you are saying, another thing that can’t be attributed for is intangibles, while you can’t account for them it isn’t be fluke that Kobe is among the top players with the most championships. Data doesn’t always tell the whole story. It needs context and I feel that realgm constantly throws context out of the window when it comes to Kobe Bryant, which I feel is the case with the Steph > Kobe argument because Steph never gets the same criticisms that Kobe did despite their careers being pretty similar.

[cupcakesnake]

Realgm isn't one person.
One person making one argument and another person making another argument is not an inconsistency.

Your OP is a flourishing garden of strawmen.

Maybe a poor choice of words but for you to be a mod, im sure you spend a lot of time on here don’t be naive. I saw a poster say replace mo Williams with d Wade in 2013 finals and they win easier and folks were agreeing. Don’t act like this place isn’t pro Lebron and what I’m saying is far fetched.

That's still not realgm. People here argue about everything. There isn't a universal POV here. It's always naive when someone tries to assign an opinion to all of realgm. It's a message board. People discuss and disagree about everything. Topics about Kobe or Lebron are amongst the most divisive.

Tons of Lebron fans and Lebron haters on here. Yes, as a mod, I spend a lot of time on here and know this very well.

[whatisacenter]

No, if anything, his passing has only elevated his standing and legacy.

[NZB2323]

The star who receives the most 'flack' is LeBron without question. It borders on psychotic at times.

Kobe has also received a lot of criticism but, on balance, his reputation has probably always exceeded his impact. It's awfully difficult to make a coherent argument that he's a top 10 guy, whereas making that argument for LeBron is pretty easy.

Also RealGM is hardly a homogeneous group - we have insightful posters and **** posters often in equal measure. Asking for consistency among that group is simply asking too much.

Finally, your 40+ minute plus comparison only really proves that LeBron was better, particularly if you take a look at some of the more advanced figures from those games, such as the higher offensive rating for LeBron and the lower defensive rating.

Is it? 5 championships, 2 Finals MVPS, MVP, 18x all-star, 11x all-NBA 1st team, 2x all-NBA 2nd team, 2x all-NBA 3rd team, 9x all-defensive 1st team, 3x all-defensive 2nd team, 2x scoring champion. 4th all time in points scored.

Sure, he wasn't the most efficient of any all-time great, but his TS% was always above league average.

[Moonbeam]

Realgm isn't one person.
One person making one argument and another person making another argument is not an inconsistency.

Your OP is a flourishing garden of strawmen.

Maybe a poor choice of words but for you to be a mod, im sure you spend a lot of time on here don’t be naive. I saw a poster say replace mo Williams with d Wade in 2013 finals and they win easier and folks were agreeing. Don’t act like this place isn’t pro Lebron and what I’m saying is far fetched.

You are implying that being pro-LeBron means being anti-Kobe, and that this feeds into the (IMO) unproductive paradigm that evaluation of LeBron and evaluation of Kobe is some sort of zero-sum competition.

Both players are great and can be celebrated for their greatness.

[flytimes11]

Realgm isn't one person.
One person making one argument and another person making another argument is not an inconsistency.

Your OP is a flourishing garden of strawmen.

Maybe a poor choice of words but for you to be a mod, im sure you spend a lot of time on here don’t be naive. I saw a poster say replace mo Williams with d Wade in 2013 finals and they win easier and folks were agreeing. Don’t act like this place isn’t pro Lebron and what I’m saying is far fetched.

That's still not realgm. People here argue about everything. There isn't a universal POV here. It's always naive when someone tries to assign an opinion to all of realgm. It's a message board. People discuss and disagree about everything. Topics about Kobe or Lebron are amongst the most divisive.

Tons of Lebron fans and Lebron haters on here. Yes, as a mod, I spend a lot of time on here and know this very well.

I’m having a hard time taking what you say at face value but do you believe this to be true? I really wanted to start a thread to see who all believed this comment that people backed up in the other Lebron thread I saw recently.

“The Heat would have had a far easier time against the Spurs if Wade was benched, let alone if they replaced him with Mo Williams who's shooting, spacing, and competent PnR ability would have benefited the Heat tremendously. Wade in the 2013 playoffs killed their spacing, couldn't create good offense with the ball, and got torched defensively. The Spurs were "guarding" him with Tiago Splitter for stretches of that series. What could he possibly be doing out there that had a positive impact?

The Heat were outscored by 54 points in that series with Wade on the floor. 54 points! With Wade off the floor in that series, the Heat absolutely obliterated the Spurs, outscoring them by 49 total points in just 11.6 minutes per game. There's zero evidence that Wade was anything other than a massive net negative in that series.

Lebron didn't have a great series, but a big part of the reason is that Wade was on the floor for 36 minutes per game and the Spurs could basically ignore him. A good example of how difficult his presence made life for Lebron and the Heat is down the stretch of game 6, where Lebron + shooters came storming back from a 10 point deficit at the start of the 4th to a 3 point lead with 3:48 left. Then Spo put Wade back in the game for Mike Miller and choked the Heat's offense to death, being outscored by 10-2 in the next 3 minutes before the Heat forced overtime with those famous miracle plays. Go watch that quarter and see how difficult it became for the Heat to score once Wade killed their spacing and started hijacking possessions. Had he just kept Wade on the bench they would have cruised to a relatively comfortable win.

The Heat played 23 games in the playoffs and were considerably better with Wade benched for a role player who could just make a spot up three. The sample size is more than big enough to make conclusions, especially when the film makes it so screamingly obvious why this was the case.“

How many post do you see about Kobe or kd or Steph or anybody being able to beat all time teams with mo Williams as a vital part/second option of team. The stats he posted are compelling but stats without contest can be the most misleading thing ever. I don’t believe the Heat win a chip like that. Historically it just doesn’t happen that way.

[NyKnicks1714]

But I want to shine light on something. I looked at a stat of minimum 40 mins played. In my opinion players of Lebron and Kobe caliber only play 40 mins if it’s absolutely called for and I feel like this comparison minimizes the statistical impact/gap between the two. This also mitigates potential deviations based on circumstance. The sample size is roughly 6 seasons so I feel like it’s enough.

Lebron
502 games

Ppg 30.3 rpg 8.0 apg 7.7 49%fg
Record 287-215 57-% winning percentage


Kobe
480 games

Ppg 31.1 rpg 6.5 apg 5.7 44.8 fg%
Record 269-211 56% winning percentage

There are much better ways to do that than by cherry picking games where they played 40+ minutes. That seems arbitrary and not particularly useful in any way.

Cherry picking? Did I not provide a large sample size?

Sure it's a large sample size but it's meaningless. Those games don't mean any more than games where they played between 37 and 40 minutes.

[Moonbeam]

I think the discussion around Kobe suffers in the same way discussion around other players with big "player-only" fanbases does, like LeBron, Jordan, Iverson, and Melo. These guys all have large groups of people who are fans principally of them as players as opposed to the teams they play for, and as such, this subset of their fanbases often make outrageous claims in favor of their player, often denigrating the efforts of their teammates.

That so many "Kobe-only" fans thrust him into the GOAT conversion, often with wild hyperbole, leads to a reflexive pushback in response that often becomes just as hyperbolic and toxic. Genuine discussion around Kobe is very hard to have as a result.

Broadly, I'd say the general pluses for Kobe are that he had great longevity as a top-10 or top-5 player in the league, that his playoff performance was largely robust (with a few notable exceptions as is the case for almost everyone), and that he proved it was possible to win a championship with him as the lead player. I'd say the cons can largely be aggregated into the fact that while he has a good statistical footprint, it generally falls short of where he's usually considered in an all-time sense. I'm not sure there are many (if any) career-spanning metrics that put him in the top 10 of all time, so those who want to put him there generally are swimming upstream against the data to make that argument.

I appreciate what you are saying, another thing that can’t be attributed for is intangibles, while you can’t account for them it isn’t be fluke that Kobe is among the top players with the most championships. Data doesn’t always tell the whole story. It needs context and I feel that realgm constantly throws context out of the window when it comes to Kobe Bryant, which I feel is the case with the Steph > Kobe argument because Steph never gets the same criticisms that Kobe did despite their careers being pretty similar.

I think Steph gets a lot of criticism, actually. He regularly gets dinged for his efficiency dropping off at times in the playoffs (e.g. 2015 and 2016), suggestions he was trying to avoid the spotlight of criticism in the 2019-20 season by milking his injury, etc. All great players get criticized and have their accomplishments questioned.

Russell, Wilt, Oscar, and West (let alone Mikan) are knocked for the era they played in.

Kareem is knocked for the relatively lack of success in the mid-70s and for only winning with an ATG point guard.

Bird and Magic are knocked for longevity and a few notable playoff blunders.

Jordan is knocked for the retirements and the lack of playoff success without Pippen.

Hakeem is knocked for ho-hum team results early in his career outside of 1986.

Shaq is knocked for having an inconsistent motor and for not being able to coexist with a star guar teammate until later in his career.

Duncan is knocked for being merely part of the system, struggles against the Lakers in the early 2000s, and the inability to repeat as a title winner.

KG is knocked for poor team success early in his career.

LeBron is knocked for his performance in the 2007 and 2011 Finals and for relegating star teammates to role players.

Durant is knocked for at times being upstaged by Westbrook in the playoffs (while Westbrook is separately knocked for not deferring enough to KD) and for his free agency moves and trade requests.

The list goes on and on. It's not unique to Kobe.

[cupcakesnake]

Maybe a poor choice of words but for you to be a mod, im sure you spend a lot of time on here don’t be naive. I saw a poster say replace mo Williams with d Wade in 2013 finals and they win easier and folks were agreeing. Don’t act like this place isn’t pro Lebron and what I’m saying is far fetched.

That's still not realgm. People here argue about everything. There isn't a universal POV here. It's always naive when someone tries to assign an opinion to all of realgm. It's a message board. People discuss and disagree about everything. Topics about Kobe or Lebron are amongst the most divisive.

Tons of Lebron fans and Lebron haters on here. Yes, as a mod, I spend a lot of time on here and know this very well.

I’m having a hard time taking what you say at face value but do you believe this to be true? I really wanted to start a thread to see who all believed this comment that people backed up in the other Lebron thread I saw recently.

“The Heat would have had a far easier time against the Spurs if Wade was benched, let alone if they replaced him with Mo Williams who's shooting, spacing, and competent PnR ability would have benefited the Heat tremendously. Wade in the 2013 playoffs killed their spacing, couldn't create good offense with the ball, and got torched defensively. The Spurs were "guarding" him with Tiago Splitter for stretches of that series. What could he possibly be doing out there that had a positive impact?

The Heat were outscored by 54 points in that series with Wade on the floor. 54 points! With Wade off the floor in that series, the Heat absolutely obliterated the Spurs, outscoring them by 49 total points in just 11.6 minutes per game. There's zero evidence that Wade was anything other than a massive net negative in that series.

Lebron didn't have a great series, but a big part of the reason is that Wade was on the floor for 36 minutes per game and the Spurs could basically ignore him. A good example of how difficult his presence made life for Lebron and the Heat is down the stretch of game 6, where Lebron + shooters came storming back from a 10 point deficit at the start of the 4th to a 3 point lead with 3:48 left. Then Spo put Wade back in the game for Mike Miller and choked the Heat's offense to death, being outscored by 10-2 in the next 3 minutes before the Heat forced overtime with those famous miracle plays. Go watch that quarter and see how difficult it became for the Heat to score once Wade killed their spacing and started hijacking possessions. Had he just kept Wade on the bench they would have cruised to a relatively comfortable win.

The Heat played 23 games in the playoffs and were considerably better with Wade benched for a role player who could just make a spot up three. The sample size is more than big enough to make conclusions, especially when the film makes it so screamingly obvious why this was the case.“

How many post do you see about Kobe or kd or Steph or anybody being able to beat all time teams with mo Williams as a vital part/second option of team. The stats he posted are compelling but stats without contest can be the most misleading thing ever. I don’t believe the Heat win a chip like that. Historically it just doesn’t happen that way.

I didn't see that thread and I'm not all that interested.

But I understand the basic argument of Wade being injured and no longer playing at an all-star level in 2013. But Wade played better in the that series than he did in the series prior. But if you're running "Lebron ball", yeah it's probably better to have an extra shooter than a broken down D-Wade. This isn't a big comment on Lebron or Wade and definitely not about Kobe or Steph!

It's a bit of a stretch considering almost everyone else on that roster was sniping 3s (Ray Allen, Shane Battier, Mario Chalmers, Mike Miller). Also those Spurs were really good at defending of Lebron. If it wasn't ignoring D-Wade, they'd find something else to throw at him.

Had Kobe had an injured all-star teammate in one of his finals runs (closest I can think of is Karl Malone in 2004), I could see Kobe fans calling that guy dead weight and wanting a healthier, less talented player with better fit.

[flytimes11]

I think the discussion around Kobe suffers in the same way discussion around other players with big "player-only" fanbases does, like LeBron, Jordan, Iverson, and Melo. These guys all have large groups of people who are fans principally of them as players as opposed to the teams they play for, and as such, this subset of their fanbases often make outrageous claims in favor of their player, often denigrating the efforts of their teammates.

That so many "Kobe-only" fans thrust him into the GOAT conversion, often with wild hyperbole, leads to a reflexive pushback in response that often becomes just as hyperbolic and toxic. Genuine discussion around Kobe is very hard to have as a result.

Broadly, I'd say the general pluses for Kobe are that he had great longevity as a top-10 or top-5 player in the league, that his playoff performance was largely robust (with a few notable exceptions as is the case for almost everyone), and that he proved it was possible to win a championship with him as the lead player. I'd say the cons can largely be aggregated into the fact that while he has a good statistical footprint, it generally falls short of where he's usually considered in an all-time sense. I'm not sure there are many (if any) career-spanning metrics that put him in the top 10 of all time, so those who want to put him there generally are swimming upstream against the data to make that argument.

I appreciate what you are saying, another thing that can’t be attributed for is intangibles, while you can’t account for them it isn’t be fluke that Kobe is among the top players with the most championships. Data doesn’t always tell the whole story. It needs context and I feel that realgm constantly throws context out of the window when it comes to Kobe Bryant, which I feel is the case with the Steph > Kobe argument because Steph never gets the same criticisms that Kobe did despite their careers being pretty similar.

I think Steph gets a lot of criticism, actually. He regularly gets dinged for his efficiency dropping off at times in the playoffs (e.g. 2015 and 2016), suggestions he was trying to avoid the spotlight of criticism in the 2019-20 season by milking his injury, etc. All great players get criticized and have their accomplishments questioned.

Russell, Wilt, Oscar, and West (let alone Mikan) are knocked for the era they played in.

Kareem is knocked for the relatively lack of success in the mid-70s and for only winning with an ATG point guard.

Bird and Magic are knocked for longevity and a few notable playoff blunders.

Jordan is knocked for the retirements and the lack of playoff success without Pippen.

Hakeem is knocked for ho-hum team results early in his career outside of 1986.

Shaq is knocked for having an inconsistent motor and for not being able to coexist with a star guar teammate until later in his career.

Duncan is knocked for being merely part of the system, struggles against the Lakers in the early 2000s, and the inability to repeat as a title winner.

KG is knocked for poor team success early in his career.

LeBron is knocked for his performance in the 2007 and 2011 Finals and for relegating star teammates to role players.

Durant is knocked for at times being upstaged by Westbrook in the playoffs (while Westbrook is separately knocked for not deferring enough to KD) and for his free agency moves and trade requests.

The list goes on and on. It's not unique to Kobe.

I get what you are saying but what arguments do Hakeem and Steph have over Kobe? I see on the PC board many posters give their takes and they are extremely biased and are contradicting to the arguments they use to prop LeBron over every one else. I’m not saying Kobe is unique in terms of being knocked but the disrespect on realgm is on another level.

A post was And 1d 78 times saying there was NO argument to be had. Another post with 19 and 1s said “There’s a bigger difference between LeBron and Kobe than there is between Kobe and Victor Oladipo (peak-wise).”

I understand that doesn’t speak for all of Realgm, but still nobody says anything that ridiculous regarding LeBron that folks on here agree with.

[WarriorGM]

I appreciate what you are saying, another thing that can’t be attributed for is intangibles, while you can’t account for them it isn’t be fluke that Kobe is among the top players with the most championships. Data doesn’t always tell the whole story. It needs context and I feel that realgm constantly throws context out of the window when it comes to Kobe Bryant, which I feel is the case with the Steph > Kobe argument because Steph never gets the same criticisms that Kobe did despite their careers being pretty similar.

I think Steph gets a lot of criticism, actually. He regularly gets dinged for his efficiency dropping off at times in the playoffs (e.g. 2015 and 2016), suggestions he was trying to avoid the spotlight of criticism in the 2019-20 season by milking his injury, etc. All great players get criticized and have their accomplishments questioned.

Russell, Wilt, Oscar, and West (let alone Mikan) are knocked for the era they played in.

Kareem is knocked for the relatively lack of success in the mid-70s and for only winning with an ATG point guard.

Bird and Magic are knocked for longevity and a few notable playoff blunders.

Jordan is knocked for the retirements and the lack of playoff success without Pippen.

Hakeem is knocked for ho-hum team results early in his career outside of 1986.

Shaq is knocked for having an inconsistent motor and for not being able to coexist with a star guar teammate until later in his career.

Duncan is knocked for being merely part of the system, struggles against the Lakers in the early 2000s, and the inability to repeat as a title winner.

KG is knocked for poor team success early in his career.

LeBron is knocked for his performance in the 2007 and 2011 Finals and for relegating star teammates to role players.

Durant is knocked for at times being upstaged by Westbrook in the playoffs (while Westbrook is separately knocked for not deferring enough to KD) and for his free agency moves and trade requests.

The list goes on and on. It's not unique to Kobe.

I get what you are saying but what arguments do Hakeem and Steph have over Kobe?

Curry started with less and had to build his team from the ground up—twice. Curry has a season that can be considered the greatest statistical season ever. Curry's efficiency is simply higher. Curry changed how the game is played.

[Ayt]

You're right. As a whole Kobe is severely underappreciated on here. Kobe being in the goat discussion, being top 3, being top 5, that's all common takes at least for people my age if you actually *talk* to people, and no nerd raging behind the keyboard at each other isn't talking.


Yet on realgm if you say Kobe is top 3 all time people will huff and puff like you committed blasphemy. Like how it's impossible for someone as accomplished and legendary as Kobe can't be in that discussion despite it being subjective at end of day.

I think realgm, especially the PC board should to get off their excel spreadsheets for real. But hey that's their call, I can't tell somebody how to live their life

Anyone having Kobe as a top 3 player is a clown deserving of ridicule.

[flytimes11]

You're right. As a whole Kobe is severely underappreciated on here. Kobe being in the goat discussion, being top 3, being top 5, that's all common takes at least for people my age if you actually *talk* to people, and no nerd raging behind the keyboard at each other isn't talking.


Yet on realgm if you say Kobe is top 3 all time people will huff and puff like you committed blasphemy. Like how it's impossible for someone as accomplished and legendary as Kobe can't be in that discussion despite it being subjective at end of day.

I think realgm, especially the PC board should to get off their excel spreadsheets for real. But hey that's their call, I can't tell somebody how to live their life

Anyone having Kobe as a top 3 player is a clown deserving of ridicule.

Post like these are funny to me and are what the two mods I was just discussing with act like don’t happen l. Plenty of former players have Kobe in the top 3 but that isn’t good enough because “AYT” on realgm says that isn’t good enough lol. It’s laughable.

[Ayt]

You're right. As a whole Kobe is severely underappreciated on here. Kobe being in the goat discussion, being top 3, being top 5, that's all common takes at least for people my age if you actually *talk* to people, and no nerd raging behind the keyboard at each other isn't talking.


Yet on realgm if you say Kobe is top 3 all time people will huff and puff like you committed blasphemy. Like how it's impossible for someone as accomplished and legendary as Kobe can't be in that discussion despite it being subjective at end of day.

I think realgm, especially the PC board should to get off their excel spreadsheets for real. But hey that's their call, I can't tell somebody how to live their life

Anyone having Kobe as a top 3 player is a clown deserving of ridicule.

Post like these are funny to me and are what the two mods I was just discussing with act like don’t happen l. Plenty of former players have Kobe in the top 3 but that isn’t good enough because “AYT” on realgm says that isn’t good enough lol. It’s laughable.

Go bawl in a corner.

[Moonbeam]

I appreciate what you are saying, another thing that can’t be attributed for is intangibles, while you can’t account for them it isn’t be fluke that Kobe is among the top players with the most championships. Data doesn’t always tell the whole story. It needs context and I feel that realgm constantly throws context out of the window when it comes to Kobe Bryant, which I feel is the case with the Steph > Kobe argument because Steph never gets the same criticisms that Kobe did despite their careers being pretty similar.

I think Steph gets a lot of criticism, actually. He regularly gets dinged for his efficiency dropping off at times in the playoffs (e.g. 2015 and 2016), suggestions he was trying to avoid the spotlight of criticism in the 2019-20 season by milking his injury, etc. All great players get criticized and have their accomplishments questioned.

Russell, Wilt, Oscar, and West (let alone Mikan) are knocked for the era they played in.

Kareem is knocked for the relatively lack of success in the mid-70s and for only winning with an ATG point guard.

Bird and Magic are knocked for longevity and a few notable playoff blunders.

Jordan is knocked for the retirements and the lack of playoff success without Pippen.

Hakeem is knocked for ho-hum team results early in his career outside of 1986.

Shaq is knocked for having an inconsistent motor and for not being able to coexist with a star guar teammate until later in his career.

Duncan is knocked for being merely part of the system, struggles against the Lakers in the early 2000s, and the inability to repeat as a title winner.

KG is knocked for poor team success early in his career.

LeBron is knocked for his performance in the 2007 and 2011 Finals and for relegating star teammates to role players.

Durant is knocked for at times being upstaged by Westbrook in the playoffs (while Westbrook is separately knocked for not deferring enough to KD) and for his free agency moves and trade requests.

The list goes on and on. It's not unique to Kobe.

I get what you are saying but what arguments do Hakeem and Steph have over Kobe? I see on the PC board many posters give their takes and they are extremely biased and are contradicting to the arguments they use to prop LeBron over every one else. I’m not saying Kobe is unique in terms of being knocked but the disrespect on realgm is on another level.

A post was And 1d 78 times saying there was NO argument to be had. Another post with 19 and 1s said “There’s a bigger difference between LeBron and Kobe than there is between Kobe and Victor Oladipo (peak-wise).”

I understand that doesn’t speak for all of Realgm, but still nobody says anything that ridiculous regarding LeBron that folks on here agree with.

The arguments for Hakeem would be centered on defensive impact, that he was one of the great playoff risers of all time, and that his teams outperformed expectations in the playoffs as a result. Hakeem has similar longevity to Kobe as a great player and he had a lot of issues with teammates that Kobe never had to face (e.g. drugged out teammates who were suspended/banned). He was a title-winner with genuine 2-way impact as he was the clear offensive and defensive lynchpin to those title winning Rockets teams.

The arguments for Curry are that he was the engine of the greatest modern dynasty and that his statistical footprint is nearly off the charts. Impact data is consistently better for Curry than Kobe by a decent margin. I think the success of the 2015 and 2016 teams before KD and the title run in 2022 do a lot to bolster his case.

In my view, it's more important to acknowledge that there are reasoned arguments for those players than it is to agree with them. I personally have Kobe, Hakeem, and Kobe pretty close together on my list.

To be honest, I find it harder to consider an argument for Kobe over LeBron. That's not to knock Kobe, who was clearly an all-time great, but I think LeBron has a legitimate GOAT case (I even voted for him as GOAT in the PC project recently, though it's always tough to settle on a single player). I say this as someone who can appreciate Bron, but he probably wouldn't appear in a list of my 100 favorite players.

Regarding the And-1s --- that's I think that reflects the toxicity of discussion around Kobe (particularly when Kobe is pitted against LeBron) and the fact that hot takes tend to attract them. This forum has some decent discussion, but it is also a source of entertainment for many.

[Salieri]

The irony of asking if Kobe is the most disrespected superstar while at the same time throwing LeBron under the bus (sixth thread that does it in the first 3 pages? I lost count) won't be lost on many posters. OP missed it, though.

[migya]

There's a reason LeBron is the consensus #2 player of all time, while Kobe barely cracks the top 10. Context matters in this scenerio. Also, the off-court issues put a damper on Kobe's legacy.

Kobe is without a doubt an all-time great. He's the closest thing we've had to MJ. Being in the top 10 of all time conversation of the NBA isn't something to sneeze at, nothing to be ashamed of.

Curry has never been carried by anyone. Without him, none of those championships happen. He allowed KD to be the primary weapon offensively because he can play off the ball. He & KD fit like a glove.

Lebron's antics are the worst among the greatest 20 players ever. From calling himself the goat in 2016, to tattooing "chosen 1" on his back, to the way he announced he was going to Miami, to saying Miami would win more than seven championships, to calling himself the king and regularly motioning placing a crown on his head, to having his wife at a recent media event call him the goat, to bringing two REAL goats to his own party - IT IS PATHETIC ON A LEVEL ON ITS OWN.

[Hobo4President]

All stars are going to get undue flack from certain fans for a multitude or reasons. Regarding your points against Curry and FMVP it isn't exactly the same as there are many people who argue (with backing) that Curry should have won at least 1 more (over Iggy) and potentially 2 more (over KD). Curry was just better than Iggy and there's a solid argument the reason KD's numbers were so absurd was because the Cavs put him on an island to contain Curry. I never see people argue that Kobe should have won those FMVPs over Shaq, likely because Shaq was a more important and better player during the threepeat.

[flytimes11]

The irony of asking if Kobe is the most disrespected superstar while at the same time throwing LeBron under the bus (sixth thread that does it in the first 3 pages? I lost count) won't be lost on many posters. OP missed it, though.

Never threw Lebron under the bus. It seems as though if you don’t consider Lebron number 2 all time on realgm you are either a complete hater or just don’t know basketball. However other play styles have shown to win championships and other players have won in “Lebrons” Era and have beaten him as well so maybe picking another player over him isn’t so far fetched? The notion that only 1-2 other players are in the same conversation as Lebron is laughable.