Fake Trade Thread #5

[Rich4114]

That 2020-21 season from Terry was special. It was the only time in recent memory this team was very clutch and he was a big part of it. He regressed in 21-22 to what he's always been and obviously last season was worse because his usage went up even more. He's not a featured guy on a winning team he's a 6th man of the year candidate on a contender though.

[JMAC3]

Monk is probably the better value, but Rozier is the better player. We are probably getting to the point where we undervalue Terry, which is expected because we were bad last year and guys had to play out of character and because of that the team really struggled. Terry, Oubre and PJ all went from being solid 3rd, 5th and 6th options to being our top 3. No surprise they struggled with efficiency most of the year.

Really when it comes to SGs in the league there are 3 main classifications.

Stars- Booker, Mitchell, Brown, SGA, Ant Edwards, Paul George
- of course we would want one of these guys, but you have to draft or trade 5 firsts for them.

Offensive minded- Rozier, Clarkson, Lavine, Poole, Simons, Maxey, Tyler Herro, Buddy Hield, Jalen Green, Jaden Ivey, Dinwiddie
- pretty much play one side of floor, can operate as offensive engine but a net negative on defense.

3D- Vassell, Klay, KCP, Gary Trent Jr, Quentin Grimes, Herb Jones, Gary Harris
- More catch and shoot types that can play some defense but overall they aren't doing much offensively without it being spoon fed.

Other- Bane, Dejounte Murray, THJ, Huerter, Grayson Allen, Reeves
- the outcasts who really don't fit the other groups IMO. Bane and Murray are steps below stars. THJ Huerter and Allen are spacers with poor defense. Reeves is a wildcard still.

Assuming the star list is off limits. Sure there are a few in the Offensive minded category that are more talented than Rozier but fit wise have same limitations. I mean are we a way better team if we move Terry for a guy in the 3D category? I am not sure it's a big change to be honest. Bane and Murray would both be good fits, but would be mad expensive to acquire.

Solid post. There's a common theme with damn near everyone on this list outside of the stars, and a handful others in the other categories. They're going to struggle hard and give back a ton of their value if you make them run point.

Terry got paid his big bucks for what he did as a full time SG in a backcourt with LaMelo, Graham, and Monk. We then decided to let him crater his own value by playing him out of position for at least half his minutes in the two years following that, and it seems pretty likely we're headed for a third. In terms of actual talent right now, I'd only take LaVine (duh- should be in the star category), Maxey, Simons over him in that offensive minded category. And guess what, most of the rest will struggle if you try to make them play out of position.

The 3&D guys would be great pickups... but again, only if we have an actual PG in the second unit. If Terry can be split into a solid backup PG and a 3&D guy, then hell yeah let's go for it.

LaVine a star? He has 2 allstars. Probably ends his career with 0 All NBA awards. Has 4 career playoff games through 9 years and is awful defensively. Would easily be the worst player in the star list. He is better than Terry sure, but he has the same issues. His win shares are very very comparable to Terry through 8/9 years.

[JMAC3]

Basically a 1/3 of starting sgs fit Terry mold, scorer but poor defender. Terry has 2 good seasons in Charlotte and 2 bad seasons (both without LaMelo). LaMelo to this point has shown very little as an iso scorer, Terry compliments him to some degree because he is just simply better at breaking his guy down and finding a tough 2. You can argue that guys like Herro or Maxey would be better players and I wouldn't argue it. However, feels like we are isolating Terry as some dinosaur who can't be successful, when he is still a very common archetype for a 2 guard.

If Miller, Nick Smith or someone else proves to be the secondary ball handler/shot maker that can replace Terry then fine. However, as it stands now we really need Terry IMO as a scorer late in clocks and potentially to help close games.

[JMAC3]

So it boils back down to how much is Terry paid. Which again isn't bad. He is 63rd highest paid player and pretty much everyone around him is best utilized as a 3rd or 4th best player (minus Mikal Bridges- who is just criminally underpaid).

In theory LaMelo, Bridges and Miller should be our top 3 players for the next 3-4 years. Leaving Terry making 4th option money as completely fine especially since LaMelo and Miller will probably both be underpaid compared to what they should be making.

Oh add in Mark Williams will be underpaid for the next 3 years for what he provides.

Basically, Terry contract/skillset is fine. We really shouldn't be in a rush to just give him away. Especially if you take 30 seconds to look at the way our team is structured.

[JMAC3]

Players in Terry archetype pay.

Lavine- 40 million
McCollum- 36 million
Poole - 28 million
Herro- 27 million
Rozier- 23 million
Clarkson - 23 million
Dinwiddie- 20.3 million
Hield- 19.3 million
Maxey- 4.3 million but about to sign for LaMelo deal.
Green- rookie deal- will get more than Terry
Ivey- rookie deal- will get more than Terry

[SWedd523]

Just for clarification, you're trying to make the argument that Terry is a good fit next to Melo?

[JMAC3]

Just for clarification, you're trying to make the argument that Terry is a good fit next to Melo?

Making the argument that Terry is fine and not the issue. Giving him away for nothing doesn't solve our issues.
- Plenty of players in the league who compare to him who are current starters
- Those players are paid roughly the same as Terry

Reading posts seems like people think he is a losing player, overpaid, outdated and we would be better without him. I am simply making the case that I think that is inaccurate.

[Chapelchilla]

Terry is SLIGHTLY overpaid and not a terrific fit next to Ball. If he moves to the bench unit for more of the game he has utility. Would trade for a later first or decent pay/production rotation piece offering better D.

[wilson115]

Just for clarification, you're trying to make the argument that Terry is a good fit next to Melo?

Making the argument that Terry is fine and not the issue. Giving him away for nothing doesn't solve our issues.
- Plenty of players in the league who compare to him who are current starters
- Those players are paid roughly the same as Terry

Reading posts seems like people think he is a losing player, overpaid, outdated and we would be better without him. I am simply making the case that I think that is inaccurate.

But is Terry a good fit next to Melo?

[HornetJail]

Just for clarification, you're trying to make the argument that Terry is a good fit next to Melo?

Making the argument that Terry is fine and not the issue. Giving him away for nothing doesn't solve our issues.
- Plenty of players in the league who compare to him who are current starters
- Those players are paid roughly the same as Terry

Reading posts seems like people think he is a losing player, overpaid, outdated and we would be better without him. I am simply making the case that I think that is inaccurate.

But is Terry a good fit next to Melo?

offensively, yes. defensively no.

The big thing with Terry is he should NEVER be the primary ball handler on the floor. Which with our current roster makeup, he always will be when Melo is not playing. Every minute he plays as a point guard is a minute that lowers his value as a player.

[wilson115]

Making the argument that Terry is fine and not the issue. Giving him away for nothing doesn't solve our issues.
- Plenty of players in the league who compare to him who are current starters
- Those players are paid roughly the same as Terry

Reading posts seems like people think he is a losing player, overpaid, outdated and we would be better without him. I am simply making the case that I think that is inaccurate.

But is Terry a good fit next to Melo?

offensively, yes. defensively no.

The big thing with Terry is he should NEVER be the primary ball handler on the floor. Which with our current roster makeup, he always will be when Melo is not playing. Every minute he plays as a point guard is a minute that lowers his value as a player.

There's also the timeline to consider. Doubt anyone here sees Terry remaining the starter when Melo hits his prime.

[HornetJail]

But is Terry a good fit next to Melo?

offensively, yes. defensively no.

The big thing with Terry is he should NEVER be the primary ball handler on the floor. Which with our current roster makeup, he always will be when Melo is not playing. Every minute he plays as a point guard is a minute that lowers his value as a player.

There's also the timeline to consider. Doubt anyone here sees Terry remaining the starter when Melo hits his prime.

probably not, but he's basically what Herro is for Miami, and can more than easily slide in as a big minute 6th man for when you need a scoring punch.

He'll be an expiring contract by the time we're truly ready to compete for something so I'm not too worried about that.

Basically, I'd move him if it got us someone who could do two of: run point, defend, score reasonably well... (maybe even just one of those if they're elite at it), but don't think there's really any urgency to make a move now.

[Diop]

I won't say I'm stressed or worried about Rozier, I guess I'm just itching for a move to improve the team. A lockdown defender with range at Sg would be ideal. If French Frank could somehow become a consistent high 30s % shooter from 3 it would be great

[JMAC3]

I won't say I'm stressed or worried about Rozier, I guess I'm just itching for a move to improve the team. A lockdown defender with range at Sg would be ideal. If French Frank could somehow become a consistent high 30s % shooter from 3 it would be great

You are basically saying a Kcp, Quinton Grimes type. I think eventually those guys could be the right piece, but right now? I think not.

Ball, Grimes, Hayward, Bridges, Mark would be a ton of pressure on LaMelo for scoring/playmaking. Grimes is pretty much a net negative. Ball, Grimes, Bridges, PJ, Mark is even worse. Terry as a guy that can give you 30 and 5+ assists on his hot nights is really necessary on offense the way we are constructed IMO.

Longterm if Miller becomes the dynamic 2 way wing we hope as the #2 pick then maybe it makes more sense. or if LaMelo takes the next step to be as good as a Harden, Luka or Curry is offensively then sure we can get away with a Grimes type. I believe in both guys as capable offensive studs in the future, but neither are there yet.

[JMAC3]

I won't say I'm stressed or worried about Rozier, I guess I'm just itching for a move to improve the team. A lockdown defender with range at Sg would be ideal. If French Frank could somehow become a consistent high 30s % shooter from 3 it would be great

You are basically saying a Kcp, Quinton Grimes type. I think eventually those guys could be the right piece, but right now? I think not.

Ball, Grimes, Hayward, Bridges, Mark would be a ton of pressure on LaMelo for scoring/playmaking. Grimes is pretty much a net negative. Ball, Grimes, Bridges, PJ, Mark is even worse. Terry as a guy that can give you 30 and 5+ assists on his hot nights is really necessary on offense the way we are constructed IMO.

Longterm if Miller becomes the dynamic 2 way wing we hope as the #2 pick then maybe it makes more sense. or if LaMelo takes the next step to be as good as a Harden, Luka or Curry is offensively then sure we can get away with a Grimes type. I believe in both guys as capable offensive studs in the future, but neither are there yet.

You basically need 2 elite elite offensive players or 3 really really good offensive players to get away with a pure spacer/defender at the 2.

Den- KCP with Jokic/Murray qualifies as 2 elite elite
NOP- Herb with Zion, Ingram, CJ are 3 really good offensive players
Mil- Gets away with Allen, because Jrue, Middleton and Giannis

Knicks- IMO struggle trying to play Grimes/Hart/Barrett/Robinson because Randle and Brunson aren't at that elite offensive level. They really need a 3rd offensive star and they then could play 2 of those defensive guys and probably be a contender.

Shifting back to Hornets, Mark as elite on defense as he is doesn't bring much to offense. PJ is another guy who really isn't bringing much on offense. We need that true 3rd great offensive player to shift from Rozier to defender IMO.

[Diop]

Hayward/Miller is the 3rd scorer imo

[SWedd523]

Terry is a terrible defender and cannot (will not) function as a secondary ball handler or distributor whenever Melo isn't on the floor. Tons of dudes can score 20 points and bring nothing else to the floor (hello Kelly), so he either needs to move to the bench or go away because Charlotte is never going to win with Terry as a starting 2.

[amcoolio]

Some of you severely underestimate what having a plus defender at guard next to LaMelo would do to improve this team

I mean as long as that player doesn't shoot like MKG

[HornetJail]

I want Dort but he does kinda suck on offense. Just not MKG levels of suck.

[Lwcasu]

Terry is a terrible defender and cannot (will not) function as a secondary ball handler or distributor whenever Melo isn't on the floor. Tons of dudes can score 20 points and bring nothing else to the floor (hello Kelly), so he either needs to move to the bench or go away because Charlotte is never going to win with Terry as a starting 2.

This ^
I don’t have any disrespect to Terry as a player. I think he did very well going from Boston to Charlotte but he just doesn’t fit the team going forward. If an expansion draft happened today the best thing that could happen is the expansion team takes Terry. His best role is as a 6th man off the bench. Our lineup looks a lot better with Ball, Miller, Bridges, PJ, Williams than Terry in the starting lineup. The plus defender should be Miller going forward.

There’s just a logjam at the 2/3 and someone’s gotta go or move to the bench. We have Terry, Miller, and Martin who play the 2, not to mention our other rookies. And, you don’t take a guy number 2 overall to have him come off the bench the entire year. LaMelo eventually started his rookie year. I think that’s the main reason we didn’t resign Oubre. He has the same issues as Terry and how are we supposed to give him minutes? Imagine if we resigned Oubre, there’s a legit chance he doesn’t play 10 minutes a game.