Is Kobe given the most flack of any star? Highlighting inconsistent arguments against him.

[sashaturiaf]

This dude just made my point for me.

You're right. As a whole Kobe is severely underappreciated on here. Kobe being in the goat discussion, being top 3, being top 5, that's all common takes at least for people my age if you actually *talk* to people, and no nerd raging behind the keyboard at each other isn't talking.


Yet on realgm if you say Kobe is top 3 all time people will huff and puff like you committed blasphemy. Like how it's impossible for someone as accomplished and legendary as Kobe can't be in that discussion despite it being subjective at end of day.

I think realgm, especially the PC board should to get off their excel spreadsheets for real. But hey that's their call, I can't tell somebody how to live their life

Anyone having Kobe as a top 3 player is a clown deserving of ridicule.

[flytimes11]

All stars are going to get undue flack from certain fans for a multitude or reasons. Regarding your points against Curry and FMVP it isn't exactly the same as there are many people who argue (with backing) that Curry should have won at least 1 more (over Iggy) and potentially 2 more (over KD). Curry was just better than Iggy and there's a solid argument the reason KD's numbers were so absurd was because the Cavs put him on an island to contain Curry. I never see people argue that Kobe should have won those FMVPs over Shaq.

I could argue Kobe should have more than 1 regular season mvp… it doesn’t really matter at the end of the day though. There are a lot of what ifs and scenarios we could play out.

[sashaturiaf]

Is it? 5 championships, 2 Finals MVPS, MVP, 18x all-star, 11x all-NBA 1st team, 2x all-NBA 2nd team, 2x all-NBA 3rd team, 9x all-defensive 1st team, 3x all-defensive 2nd team, 2x scoring champion. 4th all time in points scored.

Sure, he wasn't the most efficient of any all-time great, but his TS% was always above league average.

It's crazy how "Realgm" acts like Kobe is Jamal Crawford

[Hobo4President]

All stars are going to get undue flack from certain fans for a multitude or reasons. Regarding your points against Curry and FMVP it isn't exactly the same as there are many people who argue (with backing) that Curry should have won at least 1 more (over Iggy) and potentially 2 more (over KD). Curry was just better than Iggy and there's a solid argument the reason KD's numbers were so absurd was because the Cavs put him on an island to contain Curry. I never see people argue that Kobe should have won those FMVPs over Shaq.

I could argue Kobe should have more than 1 regular season mvp… it doesn’t really matter at the end of the day though. There are a lot of what ifs and scenarios we could play out.

Yes in which case argue that. The reason people bring up Kobes 2 FMVPs in 5 championships is because he wasn't the best player on his team for 3 of those titles. Curry was the best player definitely for 2 and possibly for all 4. It's not inconsistent beyond blindly appealing to FMVP count. That even said, there are a lot of people who do discredit Curry for only having 1 FMVP.

Personally I tend to try and not weight accolades heavily when rating players as rings are very context dependent and other awards are voted for and can be wrong IMO.

[flytimes11]

All stars are going to get undue flack from certain fans for a multitude or reasons. Regarding your points against Curry and FMVP it isn't exactly the same as there are many people who argue (with backing) that Curry should have won at least 1 more (over Iggy) and potentially 2 more (over KD). Curry was just better than Iggy and there's a solid argument the reason KD's numbers were so absurd was because the Cavs put him on an island to contain Curry. I never see people argue that Kobe should have won those FMVPs over Shaq.

I could argue Kobe should have more than 1 regular season mvp… it doesn’t really matter at the end of the day though. There are a lot of what ifs and scenarios we could play out.

Yes in which case argue that. The reason people bring up Kobes 2 FMVPs in 5 championships is because he wasn't the best player on his team for 3 of those titles. Curry was the best player definitely for 2 and possibly for all 4. It's not inconsistent beyond blindly appealing to FMVP count.

Alright well In that case Kobe outplayed Shaq against the spurs in 01. Who I’m sure you would say were better than the 6ixers. Only difference is Kobe was matched up with Antonio Daniels and Shaq was matched up with Duncan and Robinson. Where as in the finals Kobe was matched up with iverson while Shaq had old Mutombo. In 02 Kobe averaged like 11 or 12 points in the 4th quarters of those finals shooting 60ish percent in the 4th and his numbers were good enough to win finals mvp but Shaq was being guarded by Todd Mcwhatever his name is. Kobe was more successful outside of Shaq I feel like that has to be acknowledged and factored in. There was no physical match for Shaq in the east, at the time the game was played inside out, honestly who would have won finals mvp over Shaq? I don’t think anybody would when you consider who he was matched up with. He didn’t dominate Hakeem like that but none of the other centers are even in that convo. Kobe played against all star level comp in all 3 finals and out west as well.

[Myth]

It feels disingenuous to diminish Shaq’s play in 2001 by implying Mutombo was washed up by referring to him as “old Mutombo” when he was defensive player of the year that season with the 76ers.

[flytimes11]

It feels disingenuous to diminish Shaq’s play in 2001 by implying Mutombo was washed up by referring to him as “old Mutombo” when he was defensive player of the year that season with the 76ers.

Why didn’t Shaq dominate the spurs the same way then? Also are we really gonna act like that’s a tougher matchup than MVP Iverson? Or is DPOY more impressive than MVP now?

[Myth]

It feels disingenuous to diminish Shaq’s play in 2001 by implying Mutombo was washed up by referring to him as “old Mutombo” when he was defensive player of the year that season with the 76ers.

Why didn’t Shaq dominate the spurs the same way then? Also are we really gonna act like that’s a tougher matchup than MVP Iverson? Or is DPOY more impressive than MVP now?

The point is, you are going on and on about disrespect of stars, yet you are minimizing Mutombo in order to minimize Shaq, just to pump up a pro Kobe argument. It is very hypocritical.

[flytimes11]

It feels disingenuous to diminish Shaq’s play in 2001 by implying Mutombo was washed up by referring to him as “old Mutombo” when he was defensive player of the year that season with the 76ers.

Why didn’t Shaq dominate the spurs the same way then? Also are we really gonna act like that’s a tougher matchup than MVP Iverson? Or is DPOY more impressive than MVP now?

The point is, you are going on and on about disrespect of stars, yet you are minimizing Mutombo in order to minimize Shaq, just to pump up a pro Kobe argument. It is very hypocritical.

Ok so I guess I’m minimizing rik smits and Todd too? Mutombo was 35 years old. He was never a top 10 player in the league. Iverson was, Kidd was, in 2000 Miller was on the brink, you gotta admit that Kobe went up against tougher matchups in the finals than Shaq did, those are just facts.

[ShulaDon92]

I think the issue with the overrating of the great Kobe comes when people try to trash Gasol. Like, nope, Gasol was all-world. Deal with it

Odom was pretty good too.

-SARGE

[KodiakBear]

Kobe has definitely had his haters, but don't think it compares to Lebron. Kobe basically got a free pass for his last several years in the league. Regardless of where you stand on the argument of Kobe vs Lebron, Lebron is far and away better in year 20 than Kobe was in year 20. Kobe was awful in his 20th year and yes he had a bad team, but his team went 17-65. Meanwhile Lebron took his team to the conference finals in year 20 and played pretty well, but gets roasted for getting swept.

No matter the situation, I don't think Lebron will ever get a pass for losing.

[flytimes11]

I think the issue with the overrating of the great Kobe comes when people try to trash Gasol. Like, nope, Gasol was all-world. Deal with it

Odom was pretty good too.

-SARGE

He was great. How much better is gasol than Chris bosh? Or Anthony Davis? Or Kevin love? Or draymond? Or David robinson?

[ShulaDon92]

I think the issue with the overrating of the great Kobe comes when people try to trash Gasol. Like, nope, Gasol was all-world. Deal with it

Odom was pretty good too.

-SARGE

He was great. How much better is gasol than Chris bosh? Or Anthony Davis? Or Kevin love? Or draymond? Or David robinson?

Gasol dominated the league and also the international game. Spain had an international renaissance w the Gasols.

Bigtime resume brah

-SARGE

[JRoy]

Overrated

[CzBoobie]

Gotta love when some one mentions Kobe's MVPs and Finals MVPs when LeBron has 8 of those. 8 is a lot more than 3, sorry. When ppl rank players these things kinda matter. That's why LeBron is a consensus top 3 player of all-time and Kobe is around 10th place at best (i.e. not really close).
OP cherry-picked some stats and they still show LeBron was better...huh.

[flytimes11]

Kobe has definitely had his haters, but don't think it compares to Lebron. Kobe basically got a free pass for his last several years in the league. Regardless of where you stand on the argument of Kobe vs Lebron, Lebron is far and away better in year 20 than Kobe was in year 20. Kobe was awful in his 20th year and yes he had a bad team, but his team went 17-65. Meanwhile Lebron took his team to the conference finals in year 20 and played pretty well, but gets roasted for getting swept.

No matter the situation, I don't think Lebron will ever get a pass for losing.

This is why I highlighted the minimum 40 stat. Lebron is clearly more durable and hasnt suffered the same injuries Kobe had by that point. So naturally yes Lebron is far away better in year 20. Also nobody on the 2016 lakers was Ad level of player, furthermore I’m only highlighting that the gap between them isn’t nearly as big as people make it out to be if there is one. Kobe won just as much in 20 years as Lebron did… actually more

[Myth]

Why didn’t Shaq dominate the spurs the same way then? Also are we really gonna act like that’s a tougher matchup than MVP Iverson? Or is DPOY more impressive than MVP now?

The point is, you are going on and on about disrespect of stars, yet you are minimizing Mutombo in order to minimize Shaq, just to pump up a pro Kobe argument. It is very hypocritical.

Ok so I guess I’m minimizing rik smits and Todd too? Mutombo was 35 years old. He was never a top 10 player in the league. Iverson was, Kidd was, in 2000 Miller was on the brink, you gotta admit that Kobe went up against tougher matchups in the finals than Shaq did, those are just facts.

You are just a walking, talking, moving goal post, aren’t you? Your initial comment about “old Mutombo” was following the statement “Shaq is being guarded by the likes of…” Mutombo was defensive player of the year that season and was absolutely better defensively than Iverson. Talking about who was a better player overall between Mutombo and Iverson is a different point than the one you initially made to downplay Shaq’s FMVP production. Smitts and Todd are valid points, so there is no need to call you out on those points, but you dilute your valid points when such an obvious bias comes out in the invalid ones, or avoid acknowledging valid points from another point of view and change the argument in order to do so (as you just did). It overall makes it seem pointless to have a discussion with you on the topic, because it isn’t really a discussion if you aren’t open to anything other than agreement to the position you are taking.

[flytimes11]

Gotta love when some one mentions Kobe's MVPs and Finals MVPs when LeBron has 8 of those. 8 is a lot more than 3, sorry. When ppl rank players these things kinda matter. That's why LeBron is a consensus top 3 player of all-time and Kobe is around 10th place at best (i.e. not really close).
OP cherry-picked some stats and they still show LeBron was better...huh.

I don’t see how the stats are cherry picked. I also never said in the OP Kobe was better than LeBron, just that it could be argued. Kobe has more all defensive teams. Kobe has more championships. Kobe has beaten more 50 win teams in the playoffs etc.

[flytimes11]

The point is, you are going on and on about disrespect of stars, yet you are minimizing Mutombo in order to minimize Shaq, just to pump up a pro Kobe argument. It is very hypocritical.

Ok so I guess I’m minimizing rik smits and Todd too? Mutombo was 35 years old. He was never a top 10 player in the league. Iverson was, Kidd was, in 2000 Miller was on the brink, you gotta admit that Kobe went up against tougher matchups in the finals than Shaq did, those are just facts.

You are just a walking, talking, moving goal post, aren’t you? Your initial comment about “old Mutombo” was following the statement “Shaq is being guarded by the likes of…” Mutombo was defensive player of the year that season and was absolutely better defensively than Iverson. Talking about who was a better player overall between Mutombo and Iverson is a different point than the one you initially made to downplay Shaq’s FMVP production. Smitts and Todd are valid points, so there is no need to call you out on those points, but you dilute your valid points when such an obvious bias comes out in the invalid ones, or avoid acknowledging valid points from another point of view and change the argument in order to do so (as you just did).

Basketball is a two way sport. Kobe had to deal with Mutombo too, but also had to guard Iverson on the other end. Mutombo is Capela level offensively, argue me on that if you want. Shaq didn’t have to worry about Mutombo on defense.
Kobe was being guarded by Raja and Snow, both capable defenders while having to guard MVP iverson and 6 man of year Mckie.

[sashaturiaf]

I think the issue with the overrating of the great Kobe comes when people try to trash Gasol. Like, nope, Gasol was all-world. Deal with it

Odom was pretty good too.

-SARGE

Pau was great, so was Lamar. No hate from me.

- Shula