Trade/Free Agency Thread 2023-24, part 10 and Counting . . .

[Celts17Pride]

If Brad Stevens doesn't add vet big man to this roster with the 14th/15th spot he should be fired immediately. Porzingis, R Williams and Horford are never going to make it to the finish line with just those three and Kornet.

Forget Blake Griffin. Go get a younger guy with some potential that can eat up regular season minutes.

[zoyathedestroya]

Sign Boogie Cousins, top 5 big man per Stephen A. Smith.

[Hal14]

I’m pretty sure they were going to move both Brogdon and Smart this summer.

Why? I don't see any reason to believe that.

We had a logjam in the back court - Smart/White/Brogdon was too redundant, as we all know. It made sense to trade 1 of them. But I see no reason to believe that the team's plan all long was to trade 2 of them.

Now for the stats, BPM is just a box score based stat, so naturally Brogdon is rated higher, similar deal with bball reference win shares.

Here is Smart and Brogdon ranked by most of the highly regarded advanced stats, the last 3 years.





By on/off percentile, this is how they’ve ranked the last three seasons.

Brogdon:
50th
77th
26th

Smart:
77th
84th
42nd

Ok, when you combine all those stats together, it seems like Smart and Brogdon are comparable. They're comparable in age, comparable contracts. Comparable size. Both fairly similar in terms of how injury prone they are, etc.

But IMO, the 2 factors that matter most, in terms of why I personally would rather have Brogdon on this team:

1) Brogdon is a much better outside shooter. And outside shooting matters A LOT in today's NBA - especially in Mazzulla's offensive system

2) There were reports that Smart and Mazzulla did not see eye to eye. And during the season/playoffs, Smart made a few different comments that made jabs at Mazzulla's expense, and implied that he did not really respect Mazzulla as a coach.

Plus, there were Gabe Vincent's comments over the summer about how he could tell that "there was something that was not right internally" with the Celtics. It's a safe bet that the tension between Smart and Mazzulla (and possibly Smart not loving the fact that he had to sacrifice so much and share the PG position with White AND Brogdon..and Smart is a big ego guy who probably could tell that often times this season he was the 3rd best player out of those 3 guys which is not gonna sit well with a guy who has a big ego) is at least partly what Vincent was referring to.

With that being said, Brad still tried to trade Brogdon (instead of Smart) in the initial Porzingis trade. But I think that had more to do with the fact that Brad *loves* Smart. Smart has always been loyal to the Celtics and the Celtics were always loyal to him, so perhaps that's why Brad tried to trade Brogdon instead (despite Brogdon having better advanced stats last season, better shooting splits and less tension with Mazzulla, less angst about his role on the team).

Or, who knows - maybe Brad's preference was trading Smart, but the Clippers wanted Brogdon instead of Smart. Afterall, when that initial deal fell through (due to the Clippers not being able to get a physical done in time with Brogdon), why wouldn't we just do the same deal but with Smart going to the Clippers instead of Brogdon?

Seems to me like the clippers wanted Brogdon, but the Clippers did not want Smart. So when the Clippers couldn't get the physical done in time with Brogdon, they backed out completely. And, Brad probably already knew the Grizzlies were eyeballing Smart (for reasons we've already discussed) so he was able to quickly call the Grizzlies up (who wanted Smart but did not want Brogdon) and made the deal happen.

Smart for Porzingis was absolutely the right move. But based on what we know about the Grizzlies interest in Smart, I think the Celtics plan was probably to trade Brogdon for KP, then Smart to Memphis for Tyus/Warriors pick. But the Clippers ruined everything lol.

I'm not convinced about the bold part. First off, The Grizzlies were looking to move Tyus to a team where he'd finally be the full-time starting PG, after years as Ja's backup.

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That's why Tyus got traded to Washington. He'll be the full-time starting PG in Washington - he likely wouldn't have been in Boston.

Secondly, it's no secret that Brad LOVES Marcus. I highly doubt Brad would have traded Marcus for such a weak package as Tyus Jones and a late 1st round pick. Brad is not trading the guy who's been our starting PG for the past 2 years (when we had the #1 net rating in the league each year) for a guy who's only been a backup PG and a late 1st round pick.

If Brad was gonna trade Marcus, he would have to be getting a much better return package than that. And that's what Brad did, as Brad got Porzingis and 2 1st round picks and only had to give up Smart + a 2nd rounder.

There's a huge difference between those 2 return trade packages.

[Hal14]

If Brad Stevens doesn't add vet big man to this roster with the 14th/15th spot he should be fired immediately. Porzingis, R Williams and Horford are never going to make it to the finish line with just those three and Kornet.

Forget Blake Griffin. Go get a younger guy with some potential that can eat up regular season minutes.

Eh, idk..

We went half the season last year with Al for a starting center and the 3 headed monster of Vonleh/Griffin/Kornet as the backup big man. Rob only played in 35 games. And we still had the best net rating in the league.

Year before that our 3rd string big man was Enes Freedom (who barely ever played) and then after the trade deadline it was Theis (who had lots of DNP's).

I think we'll be ok with POrzingis/Rob/Al/Kornet. Plus Tatum and Brissett who can play the 4.

We've got 2 open roster spots left. 1 of them will probably be a big. But if not, we'll be ok - Brad isn't getting fired lol.

[Parliament10]

If Brad Stevens doesn't add vet big man to this roster with the 14th/15th spot he should be fired immediately. Porzingis, R Williams and Horford are never going to make it to the finish line with just those three and Kornet.

Forget Blake Griffin. Go get a younger guy with some potential that can eat up regular season minutes.

I mean, that's slightly contradictory. A Vet Big, but younger?
Blake Griffin is 34. That's not ancient, though. -- IMO he's the perfect Vet, to have on the team.

[Parliament10]

If Brad Stevens doesn't add vet big man to this roster with the 14th/15th spot he should be fired immediately. Porzingis, R Williams and Horford are never going to make it to the finish line with just those three and Kornet.

Forget Blake Griffin. Go get a younger guy with some potential that can eat up regular season minutes.

Eh, idk..

We went half the season last year with Al for a starting center and the 3 headed monster of Vonleh/Griffin/Kornet as the backup big man. Rob only played in 35 games. And we still had the best net rating in the league.

Year before that our 3rd string big man was Enes Freedom who barely ever played) and then after the trade deadline it was Theis (who had lots of DNP's).

I think we'll be ok with POrzingis/Rob/Al/Kornet. Plus Tatum and Brissett who can play the 4.

We've got 2 open roster spots left. 1 of them will probably be a big. But if not, we'll be ok - Brad isn't getting fired lol.

Agreed, in part. Brad isn't getting fired.
But, we do need a 5th Big-Man. Griffin would do alright, in that role.

[Celts17Pride]

If Brad Stevens doesn't add vet big man to this roster with the 14th/15th spot he should be fired immediately. Porzingis, R Williams and Horford are never going to make it to the finish line with just those three and Kornet.

Forget Blake Griffin. Go get a younger guy with some potential that can eat up regular season minutes.

I mean, that's slightly contradictory. A Vet Big, but younger?
Blake Griffin is 34. That's not ancient, though. -- IMO he's the perfect Vet, to have on the team.

Blake Griffin would play 25 minutes then have to sit out 1-2 games to let his body recover. Celtics have enough of that in Horford, R Williams and Porzingis. Go get someone that could actually play 50-60 games if they had to play. Blake Griffin can't do that.

[bigfoot_cryptozoology]

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[Hal14]

If Brad Stevens doesn't add vet big man to this roster with the 14th/15th spot he should be fired immediately. Porzingis, R Williams and Horford are never going to make it to the finish line with just those three and Kornet.

Forget Blake Griffin. Go get a younger guy with some potential that can eat up regular season minutes.

Eh, idk..

We went half the season last year with Al for a starting center and the 3 headed monster of Vonleh/Griffin/Kornet as the backup big man. Rob only played in 35 games. And we still had the best net rating in the league.

Year before that our 3rd string big man was Enes Freedom who barely ever played) and then after the trade deadline it was Theis (who had lots of DNP's).

I think we'll be ok with POrzingis/Rob/Al/Kornet. Plus Tatum and Brissett who can play the 4.

We've got 2 open roster spots left. 1 of them will probably be a big. But if not, we'll be ok - Brad isn't getting fired lol.

Agreed, in part. Brad isn't getting fired.
But, we do need a 5th Big-Man. Griffin would do alright, in that role.

Yeah, I'm in favor of Blake.

Or, if Blake doesn't want to come back here (because his family is still out in LA and/or because he doesn't think he's got enough gas left in his tank) I've mentioned JaMychal Green as possibly a good alternative.

[Hal14]

If Brad Stevens doesn't add vet big man to this roster with the 14th/15th spot he should be fired immediately. Porzingis, R Williams and Horford are never going to make it to the finish line with just those three and Kornet.

Forget Blake Griffin. Go get a younger guy with some potential that can eat up regular season minutes.

I mean, that's slightly contradictory. A Vet Big, but younger?
Blake Griffin is 34. That's not ancient, though. -- IMO he's the perfect Vet, to have on the team.

Blake Griffin would play 25 minutes then have to sit out 1-2 games to let his body recover. Celtics have enough of that in Horford, R Williams and Porzingis. Go get someone that could actually play 50-60 games if they had to play. Blake Griffin can't do that.

We're not gonna need that many minutes from a 5th string big man.

[31to6]

while we rehash Smart vs. Brogdon, worth keeping in mind that metrics had Smart as our 3rd-best PG last season -- even well behind Brogdon in the playoffs, which was striking to me, given how big Marcus came up in some games and how much Malcolm's late-playoffs injury dominates my recollection of his playoffs. Below I'm copy-pasting stats I pulled from bballref in Marcus' 'appreciation thread':

I love Marcus the player and what I know of the person. But it’s also worth keeping in mind that in terms of basketball players, the lineup gets better both with White (or Brogdon) at point guard and Porzingis at anything.

BPM last year/career:
Smart -1.0/-0.3
White 2.4/1.4
Brogdon 2.8/1.4
Porzingis 4.3/2.1

How about WS/48 last season/career:
Smart 0.092/0.092
White 0.154/0.119
Brogdon 0.161/0.122
Porzingis 0.174/0.133

PER?
Smart 12.1/12.4
White 15.4/15.3
Brogdon 18.2/17.0
Porzingis 23.1/20.4

okay but let’s look at the playoffs!
Playoff BPM/WS per 48/PER
Smart career 0.4/0.075/12.8
Smart this year 0.8/0.112/15.4

White career 1.4/0.119/15.3
White this year 2.4/0.154/15.4

Brogdon career 1.4/0.122/17.0
Brogdon this year 2.8/0.161/18.2

Porzingis career 2.1/0.129/18.1
Career playoffs is 10 games with DAL in 2020 and 2021

First off, Porzingis is a big upgrade over Smart. I love Smart, but it’s just the reality of it. I’m pretty sure they were going to move both Brogdon and Smart this summer as well.

Now for the stats, BPM is just a box score based stat, so naturally Brogdon is rated higher, similar deal with bball reference win shares.

Here is Smart and Brogdon ranked by most of the highly regarded advanced stats, the last 3 years.





By on/off percentile, this is how they’ve ranked the last three seasons.

Brogdon:
50th
77th
26th

Smart:
77th
84th
42nd

Smart for Porzingis was absolutely the right move. But based on what we know about the Grizzlies interest in Smart, I think the Celtics plan was probably to trade Brogdon for KP, then Smart to Memphis for Tyus/Warriors pick. But the Clippers ruined everything lol.

thanks for the nice plots/stats -- and cough cough IF you reminded me of someone, I would tell that person cough cough nice to see you here

[Parliament10]

If Brad Stevens doesn't add vet big man to this roster with the 14th/15th spot he should be fired immediately. Porzingis, R Williams and Horford are never going to make it to the finish line with just those three and Kornet.

Forget Blake Griffin. Go get a younger guy with some potential that can eat up regular season minutes.

I mean, that's slightly contradictory. A Vet Big, but younger?
Blake Griffin is 34. That's not ancient, though. -- IMO he's the perfect Vet, to have on the team.

Blake Griffin would play 25 minutes then have to sit out 1-2 games to let his body recover. Celtics have enough of that in Horford, R Williams and Porzingis. Go get someone that could actually play 50-60 games if they had to play. Blake Griffin can't do that.

Understood. -- But, Griffin's Value as a Locker Room Vet (5th-Man), outweighs any need to rest?
We just can't really maintain both, a Vet and Youth. He's a good mix. Still has a bit in the Tank, too.

[Parliament10]

I mean, that's slightly contradictory. A Vet Big, but younger?
Blake Griffin is 34. That's not ancient, though. -- IMO he's the perfect Vet, to have on the team.

Blake Griffin would play 25 minutes then have to sit out 1-2 games to let his body recover. Celtics have enough of that in Horford, R Williams and Porzingis. Go get someone that could actually play 50-60 games if they had to play. Blake Griffin can't do that.

We're not gonna need that many minutes from a 5th string big man.

Agreed. Blake can be injury insurance, as well. 15 players + 3 Two-ways. We'll be alright with him.

[Parliament10]

Eh, idk..

We went half the season last year with Al for a starting center and the 3 headed monster of Vonleh/Griffin/Kornet as the backup big man. Rob only played in 35 games. And we still had the best net rating in the league.

Year before that our 3rd string big man was Enes Freedom who barely ever played) and then after the trade deadline it was Theis (who had lots of DNP's).

I think we'll be ok with POrzingis/Rob/Al/Kornet. Plus Tatum and Brissett who can play the 4.

We've got 2 open roster spots left. 1 of them will probably be a big. But if not, we'll be ok - Brad isn't getting fired lol.

Agreed, in part. Brad isn't getting fired.
But, we do need a 5th Big-Man. Griffin would do alright, in that role.

Yeah, I'm in favor of Blake.

Or, if Blake doesn't want to come back here (because his family is still out in LA and/or because he doesn't think he's got enough gas left in his tank) I've mentioned JaMychal Green as possibly a good alternative.

JaMychal could be a good alternative. Blake has already been here, though.
Griffin is a Consummate Professional. I don't see him Not wanting to be back?

[GotDaSauce]

Brogdon can be traded at any time. Celtics would move Brogdon in a heartbeat if it improved the team. Just to refresh everyone's memory, the Clippers offered Morris, Coffey and the 30th pick in the draft in the failed three way trade between Bos/Was/LAC.

I'm not the biggest Brogdon fan by far but I wouldn't trade him for Morris, Coffey and the 30th pick in the draft.

Brogdon is here to stay for a while is my guess.

Well the salary filler was going to Washington. It would've been porzingus and the pick to Boston. With us retaining smart. So the real question to ask yourself is would you rather have Smart and 1 late pick or brogdon and 2 1sts (one of which already became Walsh and a bunch of 2nds)?

The point is the LAC were not offering much for Brogdon.

Brad was trading Brogdon to the Clippers to help get Porzingis.
He didn't need anything else from them.
Now that Porzingis is here we are going to keep Brogdon.
There is no reason to shop him especially to the Clips.

[celtxman]

In this instance he's right. Harden was foolish to trust philly but ultimately Philly realized they would be making a mistake if thry stuck to their promise

Irving isn't right he's the pot calling the kettle black. He feels compelled to seek the truth in this had no problem deceiving the Celtics season ticket holders directly as well as all Celtics fans about wanting to stay in Boston. Then he's on the phone with Nets players plotting to leave less than 2 months later. Irving should be disqualified from issues regarding character.

[GoGreen]

while we rehash Smart vs. Brogdon, worth keeping in mind that metrics had Smart as our 3rd-best PG last season -- even well behind Brogdon in the playoffs, which was striking to me, given how big Marcus came up in some games and how much Malcolm's late-playoffs injury dominates my recollection of his playoffs. Below I'm copy-pasting stats I pulled from bballref in Marcus' 'appreciation thread':

I love Marcus the player and what I know of the person. But it’s also worth keeping in mind that in terms of basketball players, the lineup gets better both with White (or Brogdon) at point guard and Porzingis at anything.

BPM last year/career:
Smart -1.0/-0.3
White 2.4/1.4
Brogdon 2.8/1.4
Porzingis 4.3/2.1

How about WS/48 last season/career:
Smart 0.092/0.092
White 0.154/0.119
Brogdon 0.161/0.122
Porzingis 0.174/0.133

PER?
Smart 12.1/12.4
White 15.4/15.3
Brogdon 18.2/17.0
Porzingis 23.1/20.4

okay but let’s look at the playoffs!
Playoff BPM/WS per 48/PER
Smart career 0.4/0.075/12.8
Smart this year 0.8/0.112/15.4

White career 1.4/0.119/15.3
White this year 2.4/0.154/15.4

Brogdon career 1.4/0.122/17.0
Brogdon this year 2.8/0.161/18.2

Porzingis career 2.1/0.129/18.1
Career playoffs is 10 games with DAL in 2020 and 2021

As someone who has never been a big Marcus fan, I guess it doesn't surprise me much. I can't remember the amount of times I lost my mind asking Joe why he isn't benching him at the end of the game for a White/Malcolm duo.

[GoGreen]

I'd trade Malcolm if we can get Dinwiddie and Royce back from the Nets.

I guess Dinwiddie is up for making some big money if he stays with them, and they may not want to pay him. Would be a great pick up imo and we get back a needed wing.

That doesn't work in the trade machine.

Also, I'm not sure i understand why the nets wouldn't want to sign Dinwiddie to that $32 mil a year extension but we would? Seems highly unlikely that we would have Tatum (due for supermax extension next summer), Brown (just signed biggest contract in NBA history), Porzingis ($30 mil a year on his extension) and Dinwiddie all on the same team.

D-White is due for a similar extension to the one Dinwiddie is eligible for. I doubt we trade for Dinwiddie and give him that extension instead of giving that $ to white. And there's no way we're gonna have tatum, brown, KP, dinwiddie and white all making $30mil or more per year at the same time.

We have salaries we can add when things open up trade wise. And whether they want to do it or not, yea that's legit. If they do for whatever reason I'd be all for it.

Is Dinwiddie still eligible for that money if traded? That I wasn't sure of. If so then it would def get tricky.

Regardless, I am concerned with Malcolm. He's just too unreliable for as great as he was last year. He played the least amount of minutes since his rookie year I believe and still managed to get hurt.

[zoyathedestroya]

Celtics should ask for 3 first round picks from the Wizards for hiding the real condition of KP pre-trade. Like when the Cavs got an extra 2nd rounder for IT in the 2017 Kyrie trade.

[zoyathedestroya]

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