Is Kobe given the most flack of any star? Highlighting inconsistent arguments against him.

[flytimes11]

No, I never considered 06 Kobe as the best player. That year there's a much better case for Dirk if you want to go there. If you're a playoff guy, Wade was better, and perhaps better than Kobe ever was that year. Kobe was incredible in that he had a 10 year run where you could argue he was in the top 5 every single year, but I wouldn't rank his peak very high all time. He was just consistently great without ever being "all time great". It's why Kobe is possibly the most challenging player ever to rank. You're just not supposed to be that good for that long and yet never have the highest of high peaks.

Just for context here's his year by year VORP and rank.

1999-00 NBA 4.5 (13th)
2000-01 NBA 4.7 (18th)
2001-02 NBA 5.2 (9th)
2002-03 NBA 7.7 (3rd)
2003-04 NBA 4.7 (7th)
2004-05 NBA 4.7 (15th)
2005-06 NBA 8.0 (2nd)
2006-07 NBA 6.1 (4th)
2007-08 NBA 6.3 (3rd)
2008-09 NBA 5.9 (5th)
2009-10 NBA 4.4 (10th)
2010-11 NBA 5.0 (8th)
2011-12 NBA 2.9 (20th)
2012-13 NBA 5.0 (7th)

Here is KG's

1997-98 NBA 5.0 (8th)
1998-99 NBA 3.3 (9th)
1999-00 NBA 6.8 (4th)
2000-01 NBA 6.4 (4th)
2001-02 NBA 7.1 (2nd)
2002-03 NBA 8.7 (2nd)
2003-04 NBA 10.0 (1st)
2004-05 NBA 9.1 (1st)
2005-06 NBA 7.4 (4th)
2006-07 NBA 5.5 (5th)
2007-08 NBA 6.0 (7th)
2010-11 NBA 3.8 (15th)
2011-12 NBA 2.9 (19th)

Here is Duncan's

1997-98 NBA 5.3 (7th)
1998-99 NBA 3.2 (10th)
1999-00 NBA 5.5 (7th)
2000-01 NBA 5.4 (11th)
2001-02 NBA 8.0 (1st)
2002-03 NBA 7.7 (4th)
2003-04 NBA 6.7 (3rd)
2004-05 NBA 5.4 (6th)
2005-06 NBA 4.9 (18th)
2006-07 NBA 6.2 (3rd)
2007-08 NBA 4.8 (10th)
2008-09 NBA 4.7 (8th)
2009-10 NBA 5.0 (5th)
2010-11 NBA 3.5 (20th)
2012-13 NBA 3.8 (15th)
2014-15 NBA 4.0 (15th)

Now I don't really give a damn if you do or don't like VORP. It's just a quick and dirty way to show in a non biased way, why people disagree with you and can be CONSISTENT in their views. We have data to show that all 3 of these guys were consistent top 5 guys by this metric, but we see KG and Duncan both finishing first with Kobe peaking at 3rd. So we can also based on this start to build the case back for better peaks as I already addressed.

Now this is obviously just a very high level, starting point for any argument about these 3 players.

Oh speaking of Curry.

2012-13 NBA 5.6 (5th)
2013-14 NBA 6.7 (4th)
2014-15 NBA 7.9 (2nd)
2015-16 NBA 9.5 (1st)
2016-17 NBA 5.9 (7th)
2017-18 NBA 4.0 (17th)
2018-19 NBA 5.1 (11th)
2020-21 NBA 5.8 (2nd)
2021-22 NBA 4.4 (11th)
2022-23 NBA 4.7 (11th)

Again, higher peaks. So we're once again back to consistency.

I get what you are saying and I appreciate the enlightenment, however this doesn’t move me as much. I’m sure someone like CP3 or Harden or Stockton has a high Vorp, but they were never able to win as a number one option. Historically you need a top player to win a championship. Kobe was 10th in Vorp in 2010 but lead the lakers to repeat that year. This also doesn’t account for intangibles. I’m not one to mamaba mentality blah blah but there is a reason players like harden consistently fall short and it’s no coincidence that Kobe is among the top winners of all time.

Did I ever offer up "first option" or "title" or "intangibles? See you're trying to shake me from a consistent argument, but you're trying to do so using tropes that many on this board do not use when evaluating players directly. That isn't to say that one can't "adjust" for a Duncan who's impact on culture is pretty well documented while perhaps leaving KG and Kobe without much adjustment despite KG having a bit of a rep as a tough teammates and Kobe having his obvious personal issues around 2004 that hurt the team and the famous breakup with Shaq. But those would be TINY adjustments only used when it was hard to decide.

Now to Chris Paul, yes his VORP is insane.

2005-06 NBA 5.1 (16th)
2006-07 NBA 4.2 (18th)
2007-08 NBA 9.3 (2nd)
2008-09 NBA 9.9 (2nd)
2010-11 NBA 6.7 (3rd)
2011-12 NBA 6.1 (2nd)
2012-13 NBA 6.4 (3rd)
2013-14 NBA 5.8 (5th)
2014-15 NBA 7.2 (3rd)
2015-16 NBA 6.0 (7th)
2016-17 NBA 5.2 (12th)
2017-18 NBA 4.2 (14th)
2019-20 NBA 3.5 (10th)
2020-21 NBA 3.6 (16th)
2021-22 NBA 4.0 (13th)

No, he never had the best but that many top 2's and 3's is impressive. And you're be right to bring him up if I based all this on VORP. I also btw do rank CP3 pretty close to Kobe all time. That said you can't just take one metric and conclude anything. I simply offered VORP up to show consistency. Now lets use Ben Taylor (Elgee from this forum and Thinking Basketball Youtuber) and his CORP metric.

Here you'll see that Kobe imo seems to edge out CP3 in CORP but falls well short of KG and Duncan. Again, consistent with my evaluation as we layer in more metrics and stats to look at these players. Again, this isn't about agreement. You're questioning people's ability to be consistent.

So what separates Stockton and cp3? Do the numbers not favor Stockton? I like advanced stats but I don’t think you can base your entire argument off of them. Jokic will go down as the greatest to ever pick up a ball.

[dhsilv2]

So what separates Stockton and cp3? Do the numbers not favor Stockton? I like advanced stats but I don’t think you can base your entire argument off of them. Jokic will go down as the greatest to ever pick up a ball.

Well the chart shows a pretty HUGE gap in terms of peak play while stockton played FOREVER. I can see cases for either of those two as we have data that is conflicting on Stockton vs CP3. The longevity of Stockton also is just unreal. But I do tend to be more longevity driven than some, but not as much as Elgee who's data that was from. So I'd take CP3 myself, forget where he ranked them.

And you say that about Jokic as if he might not just be the greatest ever. He's got a lot of ball left to play, but he 100% could get into those talks if he keeps this up into his mid 30's.

[flytimes11]

So what separates Stockton and cp3? Do the numbers not favor Stockton? I like advanced stats but I don’t think you can base your entire argument off of them. Jokic will go down as the greatest to ever pick up a ball.

Well the chart shows a pretty HUGE gap in terms of peak play while stockton played FOREVER. I can see cases for either of those two as we have data that is conflicting on Stockton vs CP3. The longevity of Stockton also is just unreal. But I do tend to be more longevity driven than some, but not as much as Elgee who's data that was from. So I'd take CP3 myself, forget where he ranked them.

And you say that about Jokic as if he might not just be the greatest ever. He's got a lot of ball left to play, but he 100% could get into those talks if he keeps this up into his mid 30's.

Ok. I’m just curious where MVP Westbrook ranks as far as advanced statistics and if his PEAK was higher than kd or steph. I can understand an argument of KG having a higher peak than Kobe even though I don’t like the argument of Peak vs all time because basketball has always been about longevity and not cherry-picking a couple seasons of a player to say they are better than another. I don’t see what argument he would have over him all time. Plus it just seems like winning is the least important metric in stats/Peak based discussions. Harden has a higher Vorp than Kobe has ever had. So Harden peaked higher? I admittedly am not big on stuff like Fg%. But what does that really mean when it didn’t lead to any championships? Look at Harden in elimination games, I am to believe he was better than Kobe?

It would be hard for me to ever place Jokic over Jordan or LeBron.

[Sofia]

Say what you will about efficiency, supporting cast with and for, the teams he faced in the yoffs (Suns, Spurs, Mavs)... He won 5 championships in 20 seasons. He has two Finals MVPs, an MVP, 2 scoring titles, 81.

[_qubik]

There's a reason LeBron is the consensus #2 player of all time, while Kobe barely cracks the top 10. Context matters in this scenerio. Also, the off-court issues put a damper on Kobe's legacy.

Kobe is without a doubt an all-time great. He's the closest thing we've had to MJ. Being in the top 10 of all time conversation of the NBA isn't something to sneeze at, nothing to be ashamed of.

Curry has never been carried by anyone. Without him, none of those championships happen. He allowed KD to be the primary weapon offensively because he can play off the ball. He & KD fit like a glove.

Lebron's antics are the worst among the greatest 20 players ever. From calling himself the goat in 2016, to tattooing "chosen 1" on his back, to the way he announced he was going to Miami, to saying Miami would win more than seven championships, to calling himself the king and regularly motioning placing a crown on his head, to having his wife at a recent media event call him the goat, to bringing two REAL goats to his own party - IT IS PATHETIC ON A LEVEL ON ITS OWN.

You just dont like him as a person, there was no basketball related argument lol

[Sofia]

Kobe raped someone, trashed his team mates to random kids in a car park, demanded team mates be traded or he would leave, and demanded a trade - “mamba mentality, what loyalty, I <3 Kobe”

Lebron goes to a stupid high school pep rally - “ughhh **** Lebron, I hate his off court antics”

[NO-KG-AI]

Kobe gets a pass for more gaffes than anyone else, and gets more supernatural and unprovable superlatives attributed to him than anyone else.

[sashaturiaf]

Kobe raped someone, trashed his team mates to random kids in a car park, demanded team mates be traded or he would leave, and demanded a trade - “mamba mentality, what loyalty, I <3 Kobe”

Lebron goes to a stupid high school pep rally - “ughhh **** Lebron, I hate his off court antics”

Ok TMZ fan, everything you've said is off court gossip and he said she said make believe. We don't know these people off court, what did we see on the court?

Kobe always played hard and competed, didn't stat pad, didn't flop, didn't keep showing up in different jerseys on stacked teams surrounded by all stars, didn't committ offensive fouls and travels as core parts of his game, didn't load manage...

All of this will fly over your perennially online redditor head, but Kobe is a baller and that's why many people who play basketball love him.

[Maxthirty]

As a former Kobe Kid it’s quite sad to see how delusional some of these posters are. They love Kobe so much that they just can’t handle it when people don’t overrate him to such an extreme extent to where he’s an equal(or better lol) of a guy like LeBron.

[sashaturiaf]

As a former Kobe Kid it’s quite sad to see how delusional some of these posters are. They love Kobe so much that they just can’t handle it when people don’t overrate him to such an extreme extent to where he’s an equal(or better lol) of a guy like LeBron.

Why are you so concerned with other people's opinions? What I eat don't make you ****.

And there seems to be a trend of posters coming into topics about Kobe, trashing Kobe then bringing up LeBron for some reason. What's LeBron got to do with it?

Sad, insecure, perennially online and incapable of accepting of others views.

[iggymcfrack]

So what separates Stockton and cp3? Do the numbers not favor Stockton? I like advanced stats but I don’t think you can base your entire argument off of them. Jokic will go down as the greatest to ever pick up a ball.

Well the chart shows a pretty HUGE gap in terms of peak play while stockton played FOREVER. I can see cases for either of those two as we have data that is conflicting on Stockton vs CP3. The longevity of Stockton also is just unreal. But I do tend to be more longevity driven than some, but not as much as Elgee who's data that was from. So I'd take CP3 myself, forget where he ranked them.

And you say that about Jokic as if he might not just be the greatest ever. He's got a lot of ball left to play, but he 100% could get into those talks if he keeps this up into his mid 30's.

Ok. I’m just curious where MVP Westbrook ranks as far as advanced statistics and if his PEAK was higher than kd or steph. I can understand an argument of KG having a higher peak than Kobe even though I don’t like the argument of Peak vs all time because basketball has always been about longevity and not cherry-picking a couple seasons of a player to say they are better than another. I don’t see what argument he would have over him all time. Plus it just seems like winning is the least important metric in stats/Peak based discussions. Harden has a higher Vorp than Kobe has ever had. So Harden peaked higher? I admittedly am not big on stuff like Fg%. But what does that really mean when it didn’t lead to any championships? Look at Harden in elimination games, I am to believe he was better than Kobe?

It would be hard for me to ever place Jokic over Jordan or LeBron.

Actually, the top impact metrics are based entirely on winning, as in how much better does the team perform with you on the court than on the bench. It's just that in an attempt to be fair, it adjusts you for your teammates rather than just counting how well the team does total. These are the metrics where KG truly shines, generally ranking as the 2nd best player of the last 25 years above not just Kobe, but Duncan, Shaq, and Curry as well. I could show you the advanced RAPM data, but it's a little harder to explain how that's derived so let's just look at the simple on/off data instead.

KG (regular season): +5.2 on, -5.1 off, +11.3 on/off
Kobe (regular season): +4.2 on, -0.4 off, +4.6 on/off

This shows that Kevin Garnett's teams played better when he was on the floor than Kobe's teams played when he was on the floor while they actually performed 4.7 points worse with the respective stars on the bench. So despite having much worse teammates, KG actually made his team better over the course of the 48,000 minutes he played than Kobe did over the course of the 48,000 minutes he played. A computer ranking is going to look at that and say that KG lifting so much worse teammates to a better result is going to be massively more impressive than what Kobe did. OK, how about the playoffs?

KG (postseason): +2.5 on, -12.0 off, +14.5 on/off
Kobe (postseason): +3.3 on, -4.2 off, +7.6 on/off

Now, in this case we see that Kobe's teams did perform SLIGHTLY better when he was on the floor than KG's teams did, but the vast majority of the better results was likely due to them performing 8 points better when they were both on the bench. Again, an advanced stat impact ranking is going to look at this and think wow, KG lifted his teams almost twice as much as Kobe by being in the game, he is in all likelihood the superior player even though if you average out the bench time, Kobe's teams were better. Combine all this and you get results like the following:

26 year RAPM (1997-2022)
1. LeBron James 9.1
2. Kevin Garnett 8.4
3. Chris Paul 8.1
4. Jayson Tatum 7.4
5. John Stockton 7.2
6. NIkola Jokic 7.2
7. Michael Jordan 6.9 (last 2 Bulls years + Wizards years only)
8. Tim Duncan 6.7
9. Joel Embiid 6.7
10. Draymond Green 6.6
11. Stephen Curry 6.5
...
73. Kobe Bryant 3.4

25 year RAPM (1997-2021) (slightly different formula from a different site)
1. LeBron James 5.54
2. Joel Embiid 5.23
3. Kevin Garnett 5.01
4. Chris Paul 4.84
5. Stephen Curry 4.74
6. Tim Duncan 4.69
7. Nikola Jokic 4.42
8. Manu Ginobili 4.31
9. Draymond Green 4.25
10. Jayson Tatum 4.15
...
59. Kobe Bryant 2.55

Now, modern players do get a little bit of an edge in this since they haven't had their decline years yet so somebody like Joel Embiid is probably higher than he belongs and someone like Karl Anthony Towns might rank ahead of Kobe now when he'll ultimately fall behind him in after he's had some down seasons in his 30s when he's past his athletic prime, but ultimately the point remains the same. Formulas which simply measure winning will have KG around twice as valuable as Kobe based on how much they lift their team and how much better they make their teammates even if Kobe won more because his teammates performed better when he was on the bench.

[iggymcfrack]

Kobe raped someone, trashed his team mates to random kids in a car park, demanded team mates be traded or he would leave, and demanded a trade - “mamba mentality, what loyalty, I <3 Kobe”

Lebron goes to a stupid high school pep rally - “ughhh **** Lebron, I hate his off court antics”

Ok TMZ fan, everything you've said is off court gossip and he said she said make believe. We don't know these people off court, what did we see on the court?

Kobe always played hard and competed, didn't stat pad, didn't flop, didn't keep showing up in different jerseys on stacked teams surrounded by all stars, didn't committ offensive fouls and travels as core parts of his game, didn't load manage...

All of this will fly over your perennially online redditor head, but Kobe is a baller and that's why many people who play basketball love him.

He stat padded so bad that he literally threw away a championship in 2004 and he quit playing at halftime of a Game 7. Like I can't think of a single player in NBA history who both stat padded and quit on his team as much as Kobe.

[Blame Rasho]

I love it when Stans of a “guy” cry about Stans of another “guy” and repeat the whole I am right and you are wrong thing over and over again.

[Sedale Threatt]

If there's one thing I learned in 20 years of watching Kobe, it's that he was going to get his shots up no matter what. I don't know if that qualifies as stad-padding or not, but it's definitely in the ballpark. Watching him try to learn the team concept over the first decade or so of his career was just painful.

[Maxthirty]

As a former Kobe Kid it’s quite sad to see how delusional some of these posters are. They love Kobe so much that they just can’t handle it when people don’t overrate him to such an extreme extent to where he’s an equal(or better lol) of a guy like LeBron.

Why are you so concerned with other people's opinions? What I eat don't make you ****.

And there seems to be a trend of posters coming into topics about Kobe, trashing Kobe then bringing up LeBron for some reason. What's LeBron got to do with it?

Sad, insecure, perennially online and incapable of accepting of others views.

I just hope that one day you’ll realize that accepting reality doesn’t make you any less of a fan. You’ll feel a lot better and won’t feel the need to spend everyday on realgm defending Kobe and attacking players and posters alike. I’m rooting for you to find that peace, brother.

[Edrees]

I haven't read the whole thread, but this is flat-out wrong, and it's kinda puzzling how you even said that when the 16-17 Warriors went 16-1 in the playoffs to break Kobe and Shaq's record.

It's the same record. The playoffs just had more games now than they did back then. Both teams had 1 loss.

That would be like if the NBA extends the season to 90 games and saying teams are breaking the Warriors 73 win record. It's not the same thing.

It's breaking the record regardless, though, as the point isn't the 16 wins but the 16-1 record. It's a better winning % than 15-1.

I know they technically broke it, but just for the context of the discussion being made, I'd argue both runs can be seen as "equals" record wise because they are both playoff runs with one loss, which is far by the most important part of the equation. The extra win is just a game you play when up 3-0 against first round opponent, pretty sure that the Lakers would have won that game had the rulset been different back then.

[Sofia]

Kobe raped someone, trashed his team mates to random kids in a car park, demanded team mates be traded or he would leave, and demanded a trade - “mamba mentality, what loyalty, I <3 Kobe”

Lebron goes to a stupid high school pep rally - “ughhh **** Lebron, I hate his off court antics”

Ok TMZ fan, everything you've said is off court gossip and he said she said make believe. We don't know these people off court, what did we see on the court?

Kobe always played hard and competed, didn't stat pad, didn't flop, didn't keep showing up in different jerseys on stacked teams surrounded by all stars, didn't committ offensive fouls and travels as core parts of his game, didn't load manage...

All of this will fly over your perennially online redditor head, but Kobe is a baller and that's why many people who play basketball love him.

Video footage and words from Kobe’s own mouth = OfF cOuRt GoSsIp


You could solve the homelessness problem if turned your advocating for Kobe to advocating for something meaningful

[sashaturiaf]

You could solve the homelessness problem if turned your advocating for Kobe to advocating for something meaningful

Says the guy with 28k posts on an internet site in service of his king.

Get offline please

-sasha

Strike: Baiting/Trolling

[Yuri Vaultin]

Why are you so concerned with other people's opinions? What I eat don't make you ****. .

Sounds an awful lot like you don't know how discussion works between people with differing opinions.

[Blame Rasho]

You could solve the homelessness problem if turned your advocating for Kobe to advocating for something meaningful

Says the guy with 28k posts on an internet site in service of his king.

Get offline please

-sasha

Strike: Baiting/Trolling

You should have used your SHULA account for that post but yeah keep doing your thing since it is working out great for you. No one really respects what you say anyways.