How can Curry be rated higher than KMalone

[tsherkin]

I don’t think it was dismissive of Karl Malone to say that Steph Curry achieved substantially more at a team level. Steph has won 4 titles and Karl Malone won 0. Like, just at a very basic level, Steph clearly achieved a lot more at a team level. One can aim to add context to try to explain that maybe that doesn’t mean Steph was better. But Steph *did* achieve more at a team level. I feel like even Karl Malone himself would agree with that statement.

And, I think on the question of whether I’m being dismissive of Karl Malone’s team success, it’s perhaps worth noting that just two days ago I made multiple posts in the most recent Top 100 thread specifically praising the team success that Karl Malone had. See https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=107965314#p107965314 and https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=107965410#p107965410. I’m definitely not dismissive of his team success. I just was pointing out the pretty objective truth that he had less of it than Steph Curry.

I appreciate that is how you view it. I do not share that same view with you, so I was articulating a different position.

[rk2023]

Steph also has just achieved substantially more at a team level.

Yeah, but Steph did also have more to work with than Malone in that respect. Scoring support in Utah during Malone's career was not amazing, particularly come the playoffs, and especially in the Finals. Steph didn't lack for team offense, most especially by comparison (even ignoring the KD titles). Stockton was solid in 97, but unable to offer dominant secondary scoring. Hornacek was unremarkable. Malone himself struggled in that first matchup. Come 98, Malone did well, but Stockton popped 9.7 ppg and Hornacek managed 10.7, both worse than the previous year. Meantime, Scottie scored 20 ppg in the 97 Finals, and in 98, Jordan had Scottie and Kukoc both posting 15 ppg.

I don't know how fervently I want to argue pro-Malone, if only because I'm a Steph fan, but explicitly look at team achievements, he did have some pretty good support. 2022 was the weakest in terms of team support, and they were still the best D in the league. O wasn't there in the RS with Klay and Draymond missing so much time, but Wiggins and Poole stepped up well enough against Boston and Klay was hitting 3s. But yeah, 2022 is maybe the best angle to argue what Steph achieved where Malone couldn't, perhaps. I dunno, but it's worth considering.

Is the 2015 supporting cast much better than what Malone was working with? Probably deeper, but anybody on the level of prime Stockton?

I’d say Draymond clearly is better than Stockton, but when you’re looking at overall goodness and value in a Steph / Karl “comparison”, that is a moot point overall

[LukaTheGOAT]

Well first off, I think I might disagree with some your talking points.

I don't think Malone beats Steph in the box-score and advanced numbers, at least if you look at prime numbers.


If we look at general prime, you see this.

To make things simple, if we look at their 5-year peaks, I think Steph comes out a step ahead.

15-19 Steph in the RS

Adjusted 29.5 pts per 75 (rTS% of 10%)

ScoreVal-2.2

PlayVal-1.6

PER-27.4

WS/48-.261

BPM-8.8

Backpicks BPM-7.2

PIPM-7.7


1995-1999 Karl Malone

Adjusted 29.1 pts per 75 (rTS% of 5.6%)

ScoreVal-1.9

PlayVal-0.3

Backpicks BPM-6.3

PIPM-5.5

PER-26.8

WS/48-.244

BPM-7

Steph simply looks like a different level of player. Steph is a better scorer and playmaker than Malone. If we look at on/off Curry is an outlier if we look at 5-year stretches — his 2016-20 stretch was +20.5, over 5 points ahead of who I believe is second-place LeBron (’09-13) at +15.3.


You can also run the numbers for the PS, and come to the same conclusion that Steph looks better.

15-19 Steph

Adjusted 28 pts per 75 (rTS% of 7.3%)

ScoreVal-1.7

PlayVal-1.1

Backpicks BPM-6/5

AuPM/G Averaged Over this 5-year span-5.4

PER-23.7

WS/48-.204

BPM-7.5


94-98 Malone (Used 94 Malone to help him out here)

Adjusted 28.7 pts per 75 (rTS% of .4%)

ScoreVal-1.4

PlayVal-0.5

Backpicks BPM-5.3

AuPM/G Averaged Over this 5-year span-3

PER-23.7

WS/48-.168

BPM-5.8


The years we do have plus-minus for, and Malone does not look better either.

3-year AuPM/G Peaks

Curry

RS AuPM/G-6.8

PS AuPM/G-5.7


95-97 RS Malone

AuPM/G-5.8

RS AuPM/G-4.3

Curry has a 3-year PS on/off peak of +18.3 from what I can see. Of the data we have for Malone, he peaked at +12.7.

To me 2014 Steph is about the same level as peak Karl Malone probably. I think 15-23 Steph is probably a better player than Malone when healthy. Maybe some of those seasons fall behind Malone if you dock him heavily for health, however, I think those versions of Steph are better in a "goodness," sense.

[migya]

I mean, I try not to factor outside stuff on basketball discussion, but exerting this constant amount of energy on defending the honor of very probably **the literal worst person to ever grace an NBA court** is just weird, man. Find a better idol.

As for OP, I still have K. Malone ahead by a tiny bit. The case for Curry is obvious, though. Just a clearly better player.

Unfortunately for migya, being arrogant < impregnating children

Your insulting language has been more than enough to warrant a backlash, but these mods obviously pick and choose who they want.

Get back to your nba2k and video games boy.

Would be better to just report, and not fire back in kind. Warned.

[SpreeS]

What reasoning? Obviously ignoring almost everything.

Longevity, no
Boxscore, no
Advanced stats, no - ws/48, OR/DR diff = Malone
on/off - RS Curry +1, PS Malone + 1.6, *Malone age 33-40 (misses most of his prime)

Curry's prime is really 2013 onwards, 702gm

PS adv stats

Curry vs Malone

Games 147 vs 193
PER 23.0 vs 22.7
TS .606 vs .526
WS 21.7 vs 23.0
WS/48 .190 vs .140
BPM 7.0 vs 4.1
VORP 12.5 vs 12.1

Prime 24-34y

Games 147 vs 128
PER 23.0 vs 22.7
TS .606 vs .534
WS 21.7 vs 18.0
WS/48 .190 vs .160
BPM 7.0 vs 4.9
VORP 12.5 vs 9.4

RS/PS on/off data

Malone RS ON +7.2 PS ON +0.8 net -6.4
Curry RS ON +8.3 PS ON +7.6 net -0.7

Malone 94-96 RS ON around +9.4, UTAH PS 94-96 nrtg +4.3 (Malone played around 88% of all UTA min, so again huge drop)

PO series

Malone 14W - 11L (Prime 24-34y)
Curry 13W - 4L (Prime w/o KD)

[onedayattatime]

I do agree that Karl Malone seems to be generally underrated here, to the point that he sometimes seems to be thought of as a rich man's Zach Randolph: this unskilled, lumbering, bullyball player who was a solid but not great defender. Speaking of which, did you know that Malone has more DWS than Kevin Garnett? He's 6th all-time.

But the idea that it's ridiculous to rate Curry above him is not an argument I would choose to make. I would probably wait until someone says they'd rather start a team with Draymond Green.

[AussieBuck]

It's all thinly veiled Jordan stuff, same as people boosting IT or whoever else from the era who doesn't belong. It's never fans from the the dude's actual team.

[Franco]

What reasoning? Obviously ignoring almost everything.

Longevity, no

Neither does Jordan. Do you rank Malone above him?

Boxscore, no

Even at the absolute, most raw box-score stats:

Curry: 24.6pts / 4.7rbs / 6.5ast / 1.6stl / 0.2blk / 3.1TO on 47.5/42.8/90.9 shooting splits.

Malone: 25.0pts / 10.1rbs / 3.6ast / 1.4stl / 0.8blk / 3.1TO on 51.6/27.4/74.2 shooting splits.

I fail to see how Malone is clearly superior on the stricly "box-score" statsheet. Sure, he gets more rebounds, but also has as many turnovers with almost half the assists and efficiency that doesn't compare unless the only thing you look at is FG%.

Advanced stats, no - ws/48

They are virtually the same at ws/48, with Curry at .203 and Malone at .205, so this is a ridiculous point.

OR/DR diff = Malone

It took me a second to realize you even meant offensive rating and defensive rating... individually. These are just about the most useless metrics you can possibly find on the internet, so I have no idea why you bothered with it in the first place.

on/off - RS Curry +1, PS Malone + 1.6, *Malone age 33-40 (misses most of his prime)

Using on/off like this is, at best, being disingenuous... but even in this case Malone's team were getting the **** kicked out of them with him on the court in that period. Besides, you're using such a cherry-picked sample size that I might as well point out that from 2012-13 to 2016-17 Curry had a better on/off than Malone's sample.

[parsnips33]

It's all thinly veiled Jordan stuff, same as people boosting IT or whoever else from the era who doesn't belong. It's never fans from the the dude's actual team.

That's sad to me. I like to give the benefit of the doubt, but it does often feel like every other debate on here is a proxy battle in the Jordan-LeBron Cold War

[NBA4Lyfe]

curry only has 4x 1st team all nba selections.. i think in the future probably 25 years from now people are drop curry lower and lower on the all-time list when they compare his career in totality to his peers. To be fair a lot of it was him being injured so it wasnt all his fault. But for instance a guy like kobe is more accomplished than curry with all-nba and all-defensive teams, and even if you want say harden is not amongst the top 15 players ever, harden will still more than likely finish all-time with a higher career mvp share rate, higher career box plus minus, and higher win share per 48. And i think harden has 6x first team selections, so by that logic their is a case to be made curry wasnt even the best guard in his own era..,. MOST SUCCESSFUL AND ACCOMPLISHED SURE.. but best.. i dunno

[MyUniBroDavis]

I mean, I try not to factor outside stuff on basketball discussion, but exerting this constant amount of energy on defending the honor of very probably **the literal worst person to ever grace an NBA court** is just weird, man. Find a better idol.

As for OP, I still have K. Malone ahead by a tiny bit. The case for Curry is obvious, though. Just a clearly better player.

Unfortunately for migya, being arrogant < impregnating children

Your insulting language has been more than enough to warrant a backlash, but these mods obviously pick and choose who they want.

Get back to your nba2k and video games boy.

Or maybe there’s a level of humanity within them that understand how creepy it is that you pull for a pedophile like this lol

Already warned for same basic dig, but.......thin ice; we [the mods] will be discussing this further, as this is way out of line.
As parsnips33 aptly pointed out just before the thread was locked [due to inappropriate stuff like this], we should be able to discuss and compare basketball players on a basketball player comparison board without being reductively accused of defending pedophilia. trex

[parsnips33]

I highly doubt anybody on here defending Karl Malone is doing so because of his history of sexual violence, let's be for real

It's a basketball discussion forum, we should all be able to discuss basketball without being accused of defending pedophilia