Ranking Isiah Thomas

[ComeFlyWithMe]

Where do you folks have him ranked? Us old heads typically have him ranked much higher than the newer generation! He didn't put up gaudy stats but he lead multiple championship winning teams and got the job done. Zeke was one hell of a player. I would wager that I have him ranked higher than a lot of people here. I really feel he has become disrespected as time has passed. Give me Zeke over Stockton. He should have been on the Dream Team, but I understand why he was left off.

[penbeast0]

I'm probably an old head, watched NBA since the 60s, and Isiah was a very good player and better man defender than he gets credit for. That said, he's not close to Stockton's level offensively in terms of making his teammates better; the Bad Boys for example were one of the least efficient offensive (and greatest defensive) champions in history. Individually, he possesses an ability Stockton never showed of being able to score in bunches but generally at meh efficiency where Stockton was one of the most efficient scorers of his time. Defensively he isn't the help defender Stockton was.

Where does he rank all time? Below the top 2 tiers of PGS that includes Magic, West, Oscaqr, Stockton, Nash, Paul, and Frazier. Below the best of the next tier like Jason Kidd but in the mix with the next few guys depending on what you value. Probably close to top 10 point guard in history, probably not top 50 all positions included but in the mix reasonably shortly after that level.

[One_and_Done]

One of the most overrated players ever. He was one piece of an ensemble cast who was credited with the bulk of their success, despite that success resting prinarily on defense (which he was meh at). He was inefficient, borderline delusional, and not even rated that highly in his own time as awards voting shows. An annoying commentator and a clueless GM, with ok scouting ability at best, who ingratiates himself with powerful people somehow and sexually assaults/harasses people.

[therealbig3]

I personally have a hard time seeing the big difference between Isiah Thomas and Chauncey Billups...beyond the fact that they both played for the Pistons. Billups was an extremely effective but not elite player who was the best offensive player on a team that won primarily with dominant defense. Played for a team that was truly a "team" in every sense of the word, basically part of an ensemble cast of very good but not great players that fit together like a glove.

Seems really similar to Isiah Thomas's situation. I know his team beat other teams led by Magic Johnson, Larry Bird, and Michael Jordan, and that sounds really great on paper...but was Thomas actually better than them, or his team was? Again, not dissimilar to the Pistons beating the Shaq/Kobe/Malone/Payton Lakers, right? Or the Wade/Shaq Heat?

BTW, with regards to MVP voting, indicating how they were viewed relative to their peers, Thomas's best finish was 5th, and so was Billups's.

IDK, Thomas was before my time, and I can't really answer why the disconnect between accolades/recognition and his numbers/team accomplishments, because he did put up big numbers, and he was the consensus best player on a 2x champion. But in terms of MVP voting and All-NBA selections, it doesn't really match up. Was it simply media hate? Or was he simply not viewed as an elite player, despite the team accomplishments and the individual stats?

[ComeFlyWithMe]

One of the most overrated players ever. He was one piece of an ensemble cast who was credited with the bulk of their success, despite that success resting prinarily on defense (which he was meh at). He was inefficient, borderline delusional, and not even rated that highly in his own time as awards voting shows. An annoying commentator and a clueless GM, with ok scouting ability at best, who ingratiates himself with powerful people somehow and sexually assaults/harasses people.

I agree with you about his GM abilities. He was a craptastic GM. I heard recently that he is advising for an NBA team? Was it the Suns? What a joke!

[penbeast0]

He was one of the guys they turned to for face of the league after Magic/Bird and before Jordan when they felt they needed to market around media stars. That and before the Pistons were true contenders, he was putting up nice point/assist totals. So, yeah, he tended to get overrated during his prime. Doesn't mean he was complete garbage. I'd rather have him than Iverson for example.

[One_and_Done]

I personally have a hard time seeing the big difference between Isiah Thomas and Chauncey Billups...beyond the fact that they both played for the Pistons. Billups was an extremely effective but not elite player who was the best offensive player on a team that won primarily with dominant defense. Played for a team that was truly a "team" in every sense of the word, basically part of an ensemble cast of very good but not great players that fit together like a glove.

Except Billups could play better D and score more efficiently. So a worse Billups basically.

[BoatsNZones]

I'm probably an old head, watched NBA since the 60s, and Isiah was a very good player and better man defender than he gets credit for. That said, he's not close to Stockton's level offensively in terms of making his teammates better; the Bad Boys for example were one of the least efficient offensive (and greatest defensive) champions in history. Individually, he possesses an ability Stockton never showed of being able to score in bunches but generally at meh efficiency where Stockton was one of the most efficient scorers of his time. Defensively he isn't the help defender Stockton was.

Where does he rank all time? Below the top 2 tiers of PGS that includes Magic, West, Oscaqr, Stockton, Nash, Paul, and Frazier. Below the best of the next tier like Jason Kidd but in the mix with the next few guys depending on what you value. Probably close to top 10 point guard in history, probably not top 50 all positions included but in the mix reasonably shortly after that level.

You forgot Curry, but I would agree he is closer to 10 than top 3 (where some still label him).

[rk2023]

I’ve been a Michigander my whole life. The state and many old school fans (in the latter, very likely for Jordan agenda purposes) champion him - including to the point of pantheon talks). While I don’t agree with that perse and I feel bad pushing back on that, it seems many in the new generation push back and underrate him. I think he’s T/35, but don’t have a precise ranking. Very few people
objectively mention how great his playmaking was and how well his game translated to the PS (including on two title teams). F4p did a resiliency study, and Zeke graded out rather highly.

The point guards I’d take over him in a career sense are: Magic, Curry, West, Oscar, CP3, Nash, and Walt. Russ, Stockton, and Kidd are arguable - though I am not sure of a ranking either way

[SilentA]

- All time ball handler (#1 of his time) and playmaker
- Average scorer, great layup package, but shot at high volume with iffy shot selection leading to some efficiency problems (e.g. driving into traffic or random mid shot clock contested long 2s)
- OK off the ball, nothing good or bad from what I saw with cutting and running off screens etc. but might need to watch more
- Underrated defender (pesky and good hands, and from what I've seen his steals tend to be very impressive on-ball swipes/grabs and not reacharound gambles/double teams), but height limitation of course
- All time playoff riser (stepping up in the playoffs)
- Longevity not great
- Leader of a championship team

To me this makes his game = an all time great PG, but more lower half of top 10 than top 3. If I weigh legacy higher (weigh playoff performance more, leadership, rings, his role on those teams, finals MVP, beating MJ Magic Bird etc.) then obviously he shoots up the rankings to top 5. But I think alot of people on the forums here view things like that as more being in the right place at the right time, and try to look at players' theoretical impact more than their resume. The Bad Boys Pistons lacked star power but for my money are one of the deepest teams of all time, and fit him well.

I weigh playoff performance quite a lot so if I actually ran a team I'd take Isiah over Stockton as well at the moment, but I hesitate to rank his career above Stockton in a definitive sense, because it's hard to untangle how much of Stockton's playoff mediocrity come from Utah's system, there's a big longevity edge, etc. Depends on criteria.

[One_and_Done]

Except his ball handling wasn't that great, it just seemed that way because of the weaker league he was in. Today there are tonnes of guys who can handle better than IT. Ja Morant is a vastly better player than Thomas for eg. Peak to peak guys like John Wall and Kyrie were likely better. It's a long list.

[penbeast0]

Except his ball handling wasn't that great, it just seemed that way because of the weaker league he was in. Today there are tonnes of guys who can handle better than IT. Ja Morant is a vastly better player than Thomas for eg. Peak to peak guys like John Wall and Kyrie were likely better. It's a long list.

Again, a false equivalency between handling even as recently as the 80s/90s, and handling today where you can carry the ball consistently and not get called for it.

I had indeed forgotten Curry, Westbrook, and even Harden if he's considered a PG which should drop Isiah out of the top 10. Top 35 all time is a major reach as PG isn't even the most stacked position in the top 50 because of the greater importance of the center throughout most of NBA history.

Magic, Curry, West, Oscar, Stockton, Nash, Paul, Frazier, Westbrook, Kidd push him out of the top 10, even without Harden or other top PGs like Gary Payton, Bob Cousy, Damon Lilliard, etc. who might challenge him.

[One_and_Done]

In today's league he might not even be an all-star

[tsherkin]

One of the most overrated players ever. He was one piece of an ensemble cast who was credited with the bulk of their success, despite that success resting prinarily on defense (which he was meh at). He was inefficient, borderline delusional, and not even rated that highly in his own time as awards voting shows. An annoying commentator and a clueless GM, with ok scouting ability at best, who ingratiates himself with powerful people somehow and sexually assaults/harasses people.

This largely covers my opinion. His playmaking probably gets underrated some, but most people talk about his scoring and he wasn't particularly good at that. The Pistons weren't especially impressive until the cast developed and his ceiling-raising wasn't impressive.

Overrated in a big way, as Detroit won more as he scaled DOWN his role. Ring bias defines his reputation. He was okay, and I mean, 84-86 he was reasonably good on O... but his reputation is WAAAAY outsized relative to his actual contributions.

[MiamiBulls]

Isiah Thomas is more than likely a Top 45 player & the 6th to 9th Best PG. Many people see his Scoring Efficiency and get completely thrown off by Isiah.

Prefer Zeke's peak over Stockton's peak, who was excessively ball dominant/ultra conservative with the basketball, limiting his Jazz's Team Offenses.

Isiah Thomas' championships are akin to Chris Webber winning a championship w/Kings in '02 & '03 or Jimmy Butler Butler winning a championship in the Bubble. Despite beating Bird, Magic, and Jordan in the Playoffs; at no point of Zeke's career was he ever an MVP caliber player.

[lessthanjake]

I struggle with Isiah. I hate the scoring inefficiency. And I do think he got too much credit at the time for titles with a bit of an ensemble cast that most excelled at defense.

At the same time, though, I think that those Pistons get underrated as a team nowadays, which perhaps biases things against Isiah a bit. They were an amazing team, and in their two title years they were really dominant in the playoffs. This is a team that won two titles while only losing 7 total playoff games (5 of which were to MJ)! And in the prior two years, they’d only been knocked out in 7 game series’s where they outscored the opponent. While I don’t think Isiah should get credit for all this as if he were some top-tier superstar, I also do think we have to keep in mind that Isiah ran the offense of a historically great team.

Relatedly, I don’t think we should discount Isiah’s offense too much. The Pistons were a terrible offense before he showed up (worst in the league) and instantly became a lot better with Isiah, and within a few years the Pistons had the #1 offense in the NBA (in 1983-1984). And that’s with a supporting cast of Laimbeer, Kelly Tripucka, Vinnie Johnson, John Long, and Cliff Livingston. Not a terrible team, but not really a group you’d expect to have the #1 offense in the league (including over Magic’s Lakers). I do think it reflects well on Isiah’s offensive capabilities. The Pistons never repeated that feat again, but they were a top 10 offense for 6 straight years, and their playoff offense was great from 1984 to 1987. They got better as a team when their defense improved, but Isiah did lead good offense too.

Overall, there’s a good number of PGs I’d rate over Isiah. But he’s somewhere near the bottom of the top 10 PGs ever IMO.

[One_and_Done]

At least with other overrated players there is some saving grace. Kobe superficially looks good. West played in a different era. Stockton is an advanced stat king. With Isiah there's nothing. His stats are weak, and a fan not blinded by nostalgia will look at his film and wonder why he is supposed to be so good. He played in a relatively recent league too.

It's just so obvious he's inferior to a tonne of more modern point guards at almost everything he's supposed to be good at; passing, scoring, shooting, dribbling.

[SilentA]

I personally have a hard time seeing the big difference between Isiah Thomas and Chauncey Billups...beyond the fact that they both played for the Pistons. Billups was an extremely effective but not elite player who was the best offensive player on a team that won primarily with dominant defense. Played for a team that was truly a "team" in every sense of the word, basically part of an ensemble cast of very good but not great players that fit together like a glove.

Seems really similar to Isiah Thomas's situation. I know his team beat other teams led by Magic Johnson, Larry Bird, and Michael Jordan, and that sounds really great on paper...but was Thomas actually better than them, or his team was? Again, not dissimilar to the Pistons beating the Shaq/Kobe/Malone/Payton Lakers, right? Or the Wade/Shaq Heat?

BTW, with regards to MVP voting, indicating how they were viewed relative to their peers, Thomas's best finish was 5th, and so was Billups's.

IDK, Thomas was before my time, and I can't really answer why the disconnect between accolades/recognition and his numbers/team accomplishments, because he did put up big numbers, and he was the consensus best player on a 2x champion. But in terms of MVP voting and All-NBA selections, it doesn't really match up. Was it simply media hate? Or was he simply not viewed as an elite player, despite the team accomplishments and the individual stats?

There was a combination of factors for sure, with his team having a ton of depth, media narratives maybe had a role, legitimately not being as good as the actual MVP candidates, etc.

But one thing of note is that he was one of the all-time playoff improvers who stepped up when it mattered. There was even a topic about playoff improvement here recently (and an old Thinking Basketball video) that shows him near the top in playoff improvement. Just think of Jamal Murray and Jimmy Butler in recent memory. Amazing playoff performances, but not serious MVP candidates in the regular season. Their games and roles are not the same and Isiah always suffered with his efficiency (making up for it somewhat in other areas, like playmaking and hustle), so I'm not saying he's a direct equivalent of those two, but it is worth considering that all NBA and MVP voting are regular season awards.

Purely from a narrative perspective, imagine a Jimmy Butler led team beating Lebron, KD and Steph led title contending teams in a 2-year span. Doesn't make his career better or a regular season MVP/higher ranked all NBA candidate, but it's still impressive and would elevate his legacy.

[SpreeS]

Thomas could be out of TOP15 PG after next 3y

Magic/Curry/West/Oscar/Paul/Nash/Stockton/Harden/Frazier/Kidd/Lillard/Westbrook/Payton/Billups/Doncic

[iggymcfrack]

I’d have him in the top 100, but probably in the 81-100 range. That’s about as high as he deserves. He really only had 3 seasons at an all-NBA level. I can’t put him on the level of guys like Damian Lillard, Walt Frazier, and Kevin Johnson. His only real claim to fame skill was the ability to generate low efficiency shots at high volume against good defense which is a pretty meh skill. I’d rather have Kyle Lowry or Chauncey Billups for 90% of roster constructions.