RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - General Thread

[70sFan]

he would of course need to prove it, but if he keeps the same level of dominance for the next 3 years I would start looking at him even in the top5

I don't consider his peak GOAT-level and his longevity would be still mediocre. Don't see the case for top 5 at all

I would consider such peak top3 and not necessarily 3rd.
In particular if he keeps this up for extra 3 years, that would be informing what he already did in the last 3 years as he would have to face different teams in the process.
And I value "long peak" more than longevity in my rankings

Yeah, I know we will disagree on that part. To me Jokic solidifies his position for top 10 peaks ever among centers and I can see his case for top 5, but it's very far from clear. I don't see how it's clear that Jokic is a better, more impactful player than:

Russell
Wilt
Kareem
Walton
Hakeem
Shaq
Duncan

and then you have Robinson, Mikan and Moses who I wouldn't put ahead of him, but I understand if someone has different opinion on that matter.

[OhayoKD]

I don't consider his peak GOAT-level and his longevity would be still mediocre. Don't see the case for top 5 at all

I would consider such peak top3 and not necessarily 3rd.
In particular if he keeps this up for extra 3 years, that would be informing what he already did in the last 3 years as he would have to face different teams in the process.
And I value "long peak" more than longevity in my rankings

Yeah, I know we will disagree on that part. To me Jokic solidifies his position for top 10 peaks ever among centers and I can see his case for top 5, but it's very far from clear. I don't see how it's clear that Jokic is a better, more impactful player than:

Russell
Wilt
Kareem
Walton
Hakeem
Shaq
Duncan

and then you have Robinson, Mikan and Moses who I wouldn't put ahead of him, but I understand if someone has different opinion on that matter.

How many of those players do you think it's clear for going the other way

[70sFan]

I would consider such peak top3 and not necessarily 3rd.
In particular if he keeps this up for extra 3 years, that would be informing what he already did in the last 3 years as he would have to face different teams in the process.
And I value "long peak" more than longevity in my rankings

Yeah, I know we will disagree on that part. To me Jokic solidifies his position for top 10 peaks ever among centers and I can see his case for top 5, but it's very far from clear. I don't see how it's clear that Jokic is a better, more impactful player than:

Russell
Wilt
Kareem
Walton
Hakeem
Shaq
Duncan

and then you have Robinson, Mikan and Moses who I wouldn't put ahead of him, but I understand if someone has different opinion on that matter.

How many of those players do you think it's clear for going the other way

Not really sure, I will come back when I finish tracking all these players (I have Wilt, Kareem, Moses, Hakeem and Shaq finished for now).

[Ryoga Hibiki]

I don't consider his peak GOAT-level and his longevity would be still mediocre. Don't see the case for top 5 at all

I would consider such peak top3 and not necessarily 3rd.
In particular if he keeps this up for extra 3 years, that would be informing what he already did in the last 3 years as he would have to face different teams in the process.
And I value "long peak" more than longevity in my rankings

Yeah, I know we will disagree on that part. To me Jokic solidifies his position for top 10 peaks ever among centers and I can see his case for top 5, but it's very far from clear. I don't see how it's clear that Jokic is a better, more impactful player than:

Russell
Wilt
Kareem
Walton
Hakeem
Shaq
Duncan

and then you have Robinson, Mikan and Moses who I wouldn't put ahead of him, but I understand if someone has different opinion on that matter.

Top10 pick AMONG CENTERS? with another three years like this one, so presumably facing different match ups in the playoffs and teams building their teams to face him?
Wow, you are really really low on him.
I am never sure what to so with the premerger and pre 3s guys, but 80s onwards I would take such version of a battle tested Jokic over everybody else, most likely.
at that point I am entering jordon/LeBronze territory

[70sFan]

I would consider such peak top3 and not necessarily 3rd.
In particular if he keeps this up for extra 3 years, that would be informing what he already did in the last 3 years as he would have to face different teams in the process.
And I value "long peak" more than longevity in my rankings

Yeah, I know we will disagree on that part. To me Jokic solidifies his position for top 10 peaks ever among centers and I can see his case for top 5, but it's very far from clear. I don't see how it's clear that Jokic is a better, more impactful player than:

Russell
Wilt
Kareem
Walton
Hakeem
Shaq
Duncan

and then you have Robinson, Mikan and Moses who I wouldn't put ahead of him, but I understand if someone has different opinion on that matter.

Top10 pick AMONG CENTERS? with another three years like this one, so presumably facing different match ups in the playoffs and teams building their teams to face him?
Wow, you are really really low on him.
I am never sure what to so with the premerger and pre 3s guys, but 80s onwards I would take such version of a battle tested Jokic over everybody else, most likely.
at that point I am entering jordon/LeBronze territory

No, that was misunderstanding from my part - I meant that current Jokic solidifies himself there. With additional 3 similar seasons, I think his prime would be among best ever with Jordan, James, Russell, Kareem etc.

I am not low on him at all, I consider him to be offensive GOAT contender who isn't bad defensively at all.

[rk2023]

Last time around, there were 8-4-6-6 pages respectively for the voting for #11-14 all-time (ended as Garnett-Kobe-West-Oscar vs. Curry-Bird-Kobe-West this time around). Though some can be attributed to tie-breakers for Kobe vs. West & Bird, the participation in terms of page numbers has been 15-17-21-14 this time around. Pleasantly (for the most part) surprised to see that.

[Doctor MJ]

Last time around, there were 8-4-6-6 pages respectively for the voting for #11-14 all-time (ended as Garnett-Kobe-West-Oscar vs. Curry-Bird-Kobe-West this time around). Though some can be attributed to tie-breakers for Kobe vs. West & Bird, the participation in terms of page numbers has been 15-17-21-14 this time around. Pleasantly (for the most part) surprised to see that.

Me too!

[iggymcfrack]

It feels like the threads are starting to stall out a little bit in the middle with a frenzy of early activity, then a lull with very little on topic discussion followed by a bunch of people voting before the deadline. I wonder if it might be a good idea to consider shortening them soon. We don’t even have to go all the way to 48 hours, we could do 60 and alternate whether they finish at night or during the day. Maybe after #20? It’s just the last 2 or 3 threads, I’ve noticed a real lack of momentum in the middle.

[One_and_Done]

I don't agree. The lack of momentum in the current thread is because Mikan is still around, and he polarises things in a way that doesn't leave much room for discussion (and which Mods have actually discouraged too much discussion of). Mikan wouldn't be a 12th man in today's game probably, and alot of people voting for him even recognise this, but they just preface their vote with "but he was dominant for his era" (which is true). There's not much you can say in response to that. Right now Mikan is in a 3 way race between Dirk, D.Rob and him. Alot of the voters like me are of the mind that any non-Mikan choice is a good choice, so I'm not going to rip guys for picking Dirk. I think the 4 non-Mikan candidates are incredibly close anyway. Discussion will pick up once it gets more controversial. Probably once guys like Chris Paul, Nash, Barkley and Giannis make the list, and when other old timers like Pettit or Isiah Thomas do not.

[One_and_Done]

In terms of how the voting has unfolded in tiers, it seems to have gone like this:

Tier 1: Lebron
Tier 2: KAJ, Jordan
Tier 3: Russell, Duncan
Tier 4: Hakeem, Wilt, Shaq
Tier 5: KG, Magic
Tier 6: Curry
Tier 7: Bird, Kobe, West
Tier 8: Oscar
Tier 9: TBD

[penbeast0]

I don't agree. The lack of momentum in the current thread is because Mikan is still around, and he polarises things in a way that doesn't leave much room for discussion (and which Mods have actually discouraged too much discussion of). Mikan wouldn't be a 12th man in today's game probably, and alot of people voting for him even recognise this, but they just preface their vote with "but he was dominant for his era" (which is true). There's not much you can say in response to that. Right now Mikan is in a 3 way race between Dirk, D.Rob and him. Alot of the voters like me are of the mind that any non-Mikan choice is a good choice, so I'm not going to rip guys for picking Dirk. I think the 4 non-Mikan candidates are incredibly close anyway. Discussion will pick up once it gets more controversial. Probably once guys like Chris Paul, Nash, Barkley and Giannis make the list, and when other old timers like Pettit or Isiah Thomas do not.

I have not seen anyone discourage discussion of Mikan. You keep repeating your line that anyone who played before 1980 is not a legitimate candidate like there was a magic moment when basketball changed rather than a gradual evolution. The people who support Russell, then Wilt, then West, Oscar, and Mikan, point to how much better they were than the others of their time and argue that although those eras were weaker than today's league, the degree of dominance justifies their inclusion despite that.

No one has stopped you from saying this over and over or required you to have proof. We have just disagree. And those who have disagreed with you have done so as posters, not as mods.

[One_and_Done]

Doc and Rex have both discouraged it.

You also grossly misrepresent my position. I voted KAJ top 3 for eg.

[penbeast0]

I did misrepresent your position. You have stated that anyone who played a significant portion of their career in the 80s is a modern player and anyone before that is significantly downgraded; rather than anyone who played before 1980 (most recently when discussing Erving v. West).

Still an arbitrary magic line not backed up by statistical evidence.

[One_and_Done]

That again is a bogus misrepresentation of my view, as I have at no time said that. More changed between 2015 and 2010 than changed between 1980 and 1976. At no stage have I indicated there is a magical line where basketball "counts", or that it is 1980. I think you are just repeating what you imagine the arguments I am making to be. If I thought everything pre-1980 was irrelevant I'd hardly have been waxing lyrical about Kareem's rookie year in 1970 when advocating him top 3.

There is no line, but alot of those past leagues sucked, and yes that is super relevant when we consider the context of what they achieved, and what it would mean today.

[rk2023]

Now that 22 players are inducted/nominated, this is what my next grouping on an all-time list looks like in no order particularly -

Ewing
R. Miller
Harden
Wade
Nash
Barkley
Giannis
Jokic
Pippen
Kawhi?

With 1-2 more prime seasons that parallel their best, I could see the pair of current foreign superstars headlining this grouping and competing more with the players in conversation for #17 and the immediately following rounds. But we are not at that point in time yet, and I don't want to accrue credit for play that hasn't transpired yet from a speculation/projection angle; even taking an approach weighting more for MVP level play, I'm unsure what is the highest outcome I could get when ranking either.

For what we know however: Both have shown to have the floor raising / unimpeachable #1 option ability on a title team, which I could only say for Wade and Kawhi out of the aforementioned player pool. ITO prime consistency, there are a fair share of problems with the latter two two however - where Kawhi certainly has it worse but Wade has some major injuries hampering the heart of his prime. From all I have seen between the two, Wade strikes me as a generally better player stacking up each of their primes. As soon as Kawhi's offensive load increased (2017), his defense was still stellar but never at the levels of "terminator Klaw" 2014-16. While I prefer Kawhi here, I think the attention and offensive pressure Wade put on defense's along with vastly better playmaking contributes to an offensive package outweighing that of the defensive gap Kawhi provides. Getting specific, I would say the high-ends of both players here trump that of anybody not named Giannis and Jokic.

Barkley, Nash, and Harden would be the next three here ITO higher-ends/~peak seasons - being the "one-way" titans of this group. I see Nash's play as the most impressive of the trio, but reckon Barkley has the most "close to MVP level" offensive seasons - implying both of them would be over Harden - at-least from a hypothesis standpoint.

That leaves me with Reggie, Pippen, and Ewing. Clearly Reggie was the best offensive player out of this trio - where I think his ability and impact is under-regarded (even in more nuanced circles). Though I'm unsure how Pipp/Ewing fare in terms of being a #1 on a contending team (I will say, they're both under-ratedly close ITO goodness [Ewing had terrible support at his true peak years]), I have some appreciation for their ability to have defensive impact that was (1) pragmatically valuable and (2) replicable/portable across various schemes and situations. All three have solid, though not outlier level, longevity that I would speculate is the best out of this entire grouping (Nash *could* be an exception with how good he was through his early-mid 30s). Is that enough to make up for the gap between them and the rest's best season(s) quality though? I'm not sure.

[rk2023]

Moses slipped my mind here completely. Loop him in with these 10.

[Colbinii]

Now that 22 players are inducted/nominated, this is what my next grouping on an all-time list looks like in no order particularly -

Ewing
R. Miller
Harden
Wade
Nash
Barkley
Giannis
Jokic
Pippen
Kawhi?

With 1-2 more prime seasons that parallel their best, I could see the pair of current foreign superstars headlining this grouping and competing more with the players in conversation for #17 and the immediately following rounds. But we are not at that point in time yet, and I don't want to accrue credit for play that hasn't transpired yet from a speculation/projection angle; even taking an approach weighting more for MVP level play, I'm unsure what is the highest outcome I could get when ranking either.

For what we know however: Both have shown to have the floor raising / unimpeachable #1 option ability on a title team, which I could only say for Wade and Kawhi out of the aforementioned player pool. ITO prime consistency, there are a fair share of problems with the latter two two however - where Kawhi certainly has it worse but Wade has some major injuries hampering the heart of his prime. From all I have seen between the two, Wade strikes me as a generally better player stacking up each of their primes. As soon as Kawhi's offensive load increased (2017), his defense was still stellar but never at the levels of "terminator Klaw" 2014-16. While I prefer Kawhi here, I think the attention and offensive pressure Wade put on defense's along with vastly better playmaking contributes to an offensive package outweighing that of the defensive gap Kawhi provides. Getting specific, I would say the high-ends of both players here trump that of anybody not named Giannis and Jokic.

Barkley, Nash, and Harden would be the next three here ITO higher-ends/~peak seasons - being the "one-way" titans of this group. I see Nash's play as the most impressive of the trio, but reckon Barkley has the most "close to MVP level" offensive seasons - implying both of them would be over Harden - at-least from a hypothesis standpoint.

That leaves me with Reggie, Pippen, and Ewing. Clearly Reggie was the best offensive player out of this trio - where I think his ability and impact is under-regarded (even in more nuanced circles). Though I'm unsure how Pipp/Ewing fare in terms of being a #1 on a contending team (I will say, they're both under-ratedly close ITO goodness [Ewing had terrible support at his true peak years]), I have some appreciation for their ability to have defensive impact that was (1) pragmatically valuable and (2) replicable/portable across various schemes and situations. All three have solid, though not outlier level, longevity that I would speculate is the best out of this entire grouping (Nash *could* be an exception with how good he was through his early-mid 30s). Is that enough to make up for the gap between them and the rest's best season(s) quality though? I'm not sure.

Lots of offensive monsters here. Efficiency, Volume and Playmaking is difficult to distinguish between this group.

[rk2023]

Now that 22 players are inducted/nominated, this is what my next grouping on an all-time list looks like in no order particularly -

Ewing
R. Miller
Harden
Wade
Nash
Barkley
Giannis
Jokic
Pippen
Kawhi?

With 1-2 more prime seasons that parallel their best, I could see the pair of current foreign superstars headlining this grouping and competing more with the players in conversation for #17 and the immediately following rounds. But we are not at that point in time yet, and I don't want to accrue credit for play that hasn't transpired yet from a speculation/projection angle; even taking an approach weighting more for MVP level play, I'm unsure what is the highest outcome I could get when ranking either.

For what we know however: Both have shown to have the floor raising / unimpeachable #1 option ability on a title team, which I could only say for Wade and Kawhi out of the aforementioned player pool. ITO prime consistency, there are a fair share of problems with the latter two two however - where Kawhi certainly has it worse but Wade has some major injuries hampering the heart of his prime. From all I have seen between the two, Wade strikes me as a generally better player stacking up each of their primes. As soon as Kawhi's offensive load increased (2017), his defense was still stellar but never at the levels of "terminator Klaw" 2014-16. While I prefer Kawhi here, I think the attention and offensive pressure Wade put on defense's along with vastly better playmaking contributes to an offensive package outweighing that of the defensive gap Kawhi provides. Getting specific, I would say the high-ends of both players here trump that of anybody not named Giannis and Jokic.

Barkley, Nash, and Harden would be the next three here ITO higher-ends/~peak seasons - being the "one-way" titans of this group. I see Nash's play as the most impressive of the trio, but reckon Barkley has the most "close to MVP level" offensive seasons - implying both of them would be over Harden - at-least from a hypothesis standpoint.

That leaves me with Reggie, Pippen, and Ewing. Clearly Reggie was the best offensive player out of this trio - where I think his ability and impact is under-regarded (even in more nuanced circles). Though I'm unsure how Pipp/Ewing fare in terms of being a #1 on a contending team (I will say, they're both under-ratedly close ITO goodness [Ewing had terrible support at his true peak years]), I have some appreciation for their ability to have defensive impact that was (1) pragmatically valuable and (2) replicable/portable across various schemes and situations. All three have solid, though not outlier level, longevity that I would speculate is the best out of this entire grouping (Nash *could* be an exception with how good he was through his early-mid 30s). Is that enough to make up for the gap between them and the rest's best season(s) quality though? I'm not sure.

Lots of offensive monsters here. Efficiency, Volume and Playmaking is difficult to distinguish between this group.

I think Reggie and Jokic strike me as the best PS scorers of the bunch (tho Harden's volume is nothing to scoff at, ditto for Wade). Kawhi, with holes in the argument for, is a monster scorer at times too - while Barkley is one of the most proficient RS interior scoring forces in NBA History.

Playmaking should clearly be Nash and Jokic, Harden not too far back but he's at-least a tier or so down from Jokic imo.

[iggymcfrack]

I don't agree. The lack of momentum in the current thread is because Mikan is still around, and he polarises things in a way that doesn't leave much room for discussion (and which Mods have actually discouraged too much discussion of). Mikan wouldn't be a 12th man in today's game probably, and alot of people voting for him even recognise this, but they just preface their vote with "but he was dominant for his era" (which is true). There's not much you can say in response to that. Right now Mikan is in a 3 way race between Dirk, D.Rob and him. Alot of the voters like me are of the mind that any non-Mikan choice is a good choice, so I'm not going to rip guys for picking Dirk. I think the 4 non-Mikan candidates are incredibly close anyway. Discussion will pick up once it gets more controversial. Probably once guys like Chris Paul, Nash, Barkley and Giannis make the list, and when other old timers like Pettit or Isiah Thomas do not.

Discussion hasn’t picked up at all post-Mikan. I think we could definitely reduce the thread time after we finish the top 20.

[One_and_Done]

I don't agree. The lack of momentum in the current thread is because Mikan is still around, and he polarises things in a way that doesn't leave much room for discussion (and which Mods have actually discouraged too much discussion of). Mikan wouldn't be a 12th man in today's game probably, and alot of people voting for him even recognise this, but they just preface their vote with "but he was dominant for his era" (which is true). There's not much you can say in response to that. Right now Mikan is in a 3 way race between Dirk, D.Rob and him. Alot of the voters like me are of the mind that any non-Mikan choice is a good choice, so I'm not going to rip guys for picking Dirk. I think the 4 non-Mikan candidates are incredibly close anyway. Discussion will pick up once it gets more controversial. Probably once guys like Chris Paul, Nash, Barkley and Giannis make the list, and when other old timers like Pettit or Isiah Thomas do not.

Discussion hasn’t picked up at all post-Mikan. I think we could definitely reduce the thread time after we finish the top 20.

Discussion hasn't picked up because of how the Mikan thread went probably. At any rate I'm not in favour of shortening the time.