Thinking Basketball Offensive Legends, Allen Iverson

[picc]

Watch on YouTube

Interesting video on AI.

I was watching a lot of early 00's Sixers last summer and what stood out was how much of an off-ball player AI was. This video touches on that and a lot of other things.

- Volume scoring and playmaking as hybrid SG and PG
- 99th percentile in teammate shot creation during peak years
- Unorthodox shooting form, size, and lots of long 2's led to inefficient shooting %'s
- All-time ballhandling and court navigation
- Good floor-raising but neutral effect on better teams
- Off-ball movement produced mini Reggie Miller effect

[FrodoBaggins]

This comment on the video is great:

Allen Iverson is an interesting Litmus test for analysing NBA players and, more specifically, scoring.

When looking purely at his basic counting stats, he looks pretty damn amazing. Truly elite in fact. However, when looking through his advanced stats, and other metrics, all of a sudden Allen looks much less impressive, especially in regards to his shooting efficiency. When analyzed even further, Allen flips back around a bit, where it seems that despite his ineffciency, his volume scoring and playmaking can be at a truly elite level, especially in the playoffs. Whereas some fans (and especially former players) seem to heavily overrate AI, lauding his scoring prowess and 'bag', as well as conflating his impact on the league with his abilities and for some reason giving him a boost simply for being small; others still under-rate him, citing his poor scoring efficiency and writing off his game entirely. It seems that the truth of Allen Iverson lies, as it often does, somewhere in the middle.

[hardenASG13]

AI did so much beyond his incredible scoring numbers. As noted in this video, him missing shots and drawing defense was sadly a big part of the Philly offense, so his bigs could do what they did best, clean up. He played his whole prime in Philly largely with nobody else who could create offense for themselves or others. People like to criticize his shot selection, but don't understand why it was like that.

Incredible scorer and playmaker for his size. Haven't seen a talent like him before or after his playing days.

[dhsilv2]

He just lacked synergy with other players. As a result there was just a cap on what he could do for you. Loved watching him. His off ball game was truly elite.

[liquidswords]

He just lacked synergy with other players. As a result there was just a cap on what he could do for you. Loved watching him. His off ball game was truly elite.

He lacked synergy with other players in Philly because he played with entirely role players most of his career. The "stars" he got were meek Keith Van Horn, over the hill Glenn Robinson, one legged Chris Webber. He had great synergy with Melo in Denver though.

Also, is it time to admit that Thinking Basketball is kinda mid? They constantly state the obvious or use one play to throw a total blanket analysis on a player. With the Iveson analysis, yeah we know lol - his underlying numbers are poor because he was small, had no help, and had to shoulder an insane amount of offensive load. We don't need a plethora of spreadsheets to tell us that. Smart guys but like not the Mensa NBA dudes that a lot of posters make them out to be.

[dhsilv2]

He just lacked synergy with other players. As a result there was just a cap on what he could do for you. Loved watching him. His off ball game was truly elite.

He lacked synergy with other players in Philly because he played with entirely role players most of his career. The "stars" he got were meek Keith Van Horn, over the hill Glenn Robinson, one legged Chris Webber. He had great synergy with Melo in Denver though.

Also, is it time to admit that Thinking Basketball is kinda mid? They constantly state the obvious or use one play to throw a total blanket analysis on a player. With the Iveson analysis, yeah we know lol - his underlying numbers are poor because he was small, had no help, and had to shoulder an insane amount of offensive load. We don't need a plethora of spreadsheets to tell us that. Smart guys but like not the Mensa NBA dudes that a lot of posters make them out to be.

If only Ben had bothered to show what happened on Denver where he was unable to make their offense better...

the reality is there WAS synergy on the 76ers because they all needed him to make for them. But when he got offensive talent, that is when the synergy was lost. AI could play off ball to create a shot for himself, but not complement other scorers. And that was a problem.

[cam24thomas]

Iverson was much better shooter than Philly's offense allowed him to be.
Because he shot .456 in his 135 games with Denver.

[tsherkin]

Iverson was much better shooter than Philly's offense allowed him to be.
Because he shot .456 in his 135 games with Denver.

That isn't quite accurate. He saw an immediate leap in 2FG% as soon as the 04-05 season hit, and it remained consistently that way until his last two seasons. Turns out, if you aren't allowed to be quite as physical with him, it's far more difficult to stay in front of him and he can generate better looks. Weird.

[TheGeneral99]

AI was incredible given his height and weight. He's probably the best scorer in NBA history pound for pound.

However, he was a relatively poor teammate, took really bad shots, was not as efficient as he should have been, and didn't make his teammates better. This is why I don't think he deserves to be in the same discussion as other PGs like Nash, Kidd and CP3.

[TheGeneral99]

Iverson was much better shooter than Philly's offense allowed him to be.
Because he shot .456 in his 135 games with Denver.

That isn't quite accurate. He saw an immediate leap in 2FG% as soon as the 04-05 season hit, and it remained consistently that way until his last two seasons. Turns out, if you aren't allowed to be quite as physical with him, it's far more difficult to stay in front of him and he can generate better looks. Weird.

Part of that was also going to Denver and playing with Melo who was becoming one of the most lethal scorers in the game. Another part of that was due to the league changing with the Jordan-iso era coming to an end and the 7 seconds or less Suns dominating the league with amazing ball movement and 3 point shooting.

In 2004-2005 he shot 42%fg and 31%3fg.

In 2005-2006 he shot 45%fg and 32%3fg

In 2006-2007 he shot 41%fg and 22%3fg while on Philly and then it rose to 45%fg and 35%3fg on Denver.

[Mogspan]

This comment on the video is great:

Allen Iverson is an interesting Litmus test for analysing NBA players and, more specifically, scoring.

When looking purely at his basic counting stats, he looks pretty damn amazing. Truly elite in fact. However, when looking through his advanced stats, and other metrics, all of a sudden Allen looks much less impressive, especially in regards to his shooting efficiency. When analyzed even further, Allen flips back around a bit, where it seems that despite his ineffciency, his volume scoring and playmaking can be at a truly elite level, especially in the playoffs. Whereas some fans (and especially former players) seem to heavily overrate AI, lauding his scoring prowess and 'bag', as well as conflating his impact on the league with his abilities and for some reason giving him a boost simply for being small; others still under-rate him, citing his poor scoring efficiency and writing off his game entirely. It seems that the truth of Allen Iverson lies, as it often does, somewhere in the middle.

[bisme37]

Iverson was one of those players I loved watching so much I just don't even care about the stats and analytics. Only guy who ever made me root for the Sixers haha.

[Dangun]

AI was incredible given his height and weight. He's probably the best scorer in NBA history pound for pound.

However, he was a relatively poor teammate, took really bad shots, was not as efficient as he should have been, and didn't make his teammates better. This is why I don't think he deserves to be in the same discussion as other PGs like Nash, Kidd and CP3.

But nobody cornered him as a PG in this thread so why are you bringing up those other PG’s ?

[TheGeneral99]

AI was incredible given his height and weight. He's probably the best scorer in NBA history pound for pound.

However, he was a relatively poor teammate, took really bad shots, was not as efficient as he should have been, and didn't make his teammates better. This is why I don't think he deserves to be in the same discussion as other PGs like Nash, Kidd and CP3.

But nobody cornered him as a PG in this thread so why are you bringing up those other PG’s ?

I'm simply saying he was a great player and lethal scorer who had several limitations that take him out of the conversation from some of the other great all-time NBA guards. Just my opinion.

[JustBuzzin]

He just lacked synergy with other players. As a result there was just a cap on what he could do for you. Loved watching him. His off ball game was truly elite.

This is false. He simply didn't have a team around him in his prime. He didn't really have a decent supporting cast until Denver which he wasn't at his prime anymore.

It's still amazing he got that team to the Finals.


AI is a strange player he's probably one of the most popular players to ever play the game yet it seems like he's one of the most disrespected players as well. This guy was a top 5 sg in NBA history and he was 6ft playing that position. He played bigger than his size. He was amongst the best scorer's in the league for a 5 year stretch when his competition was against players like Shaq/Kobe/Duncan/KG/Tmac/Dirk.

AI was a problem he just lacked a supporting cast. He had to shoot a lot because that team had no scorers besides him.

[Dangun]

AI was incredible given his height and weight. He's probably the best scorer in NBA history pound for pound.

However, he was a relatively poor teammate, took really bad shots, was not as efficient as he should have been, and didn't make his teammates better. This is why I don't think he deserves to be in the same discussion as other PGs like Nash, Kidd and CP3.

But nobody cornered him as a PG in this thread so why are you bringing up those other PG’s ?

I'm simply saying he was a great player and lethal scorer who had several limitations that take him out of the conversation from some of the other great all-time NBA guards. Just my opinion.

Nah you specifically said other PG’s when he’s not a PG and IMO he’s def in the conversation

[TheGeneral99]

But nobody cornered him as a PG in this thread so why are you bringing up those other PG’s ?

I'm simply saying he was a great player and lethal scorer who had several limitations that take him out of the conversation from some of the other great all-time NBA guards. Just my opinion.

Nah you specifically said other PG’s when he’s not a PG and IMO he’s def in the conversation

Okay so I'll clarify, I'm talking about gaurds.

And I don't have him in the same conversation as guys like Kidd, Nash, CP3, Wade, Kobe, Curry, Thomas etc. he's a tier behind. I have him in my top 50 ever, not my top 30.

[Dangun]

I'm simply saying he was a great player and lethal scorer who had several limitations that take him out of the conversation from some of the other great all-time NBA guards. Just my opinion.

Nah you specifically said other PG’s when he’s not a PG and IMO he’s def in the conversation

Okay so I'll clarify, I'm talking about gaurds.

And I don't have him in the same conversation as guys like Kidd, Nash, CP3, Wade, Kobe, Curry, Thomas etc. he's a tier behind. I have him in my top 50 ever, not my top 30.

That’s your list and I get it… but my list… I have everyone you mentioned above him, but Nash and cp3 unless cp3 wins 1. Nash 1 doesn’t count to me… and AI not far behind the ones with rings after taking the squad he had to the finals… you don’t take that type of squad to the finals by yourself… that was something to see and you won’t ever see again

[TheGeneral99]

Nah you specifically said other PG’s when he’s not a PG and IMO he’s def in the conversation

Okay so I'll clarify, I'm talking about gaurds.

And I don't have him in the same conversation as guys like Kidd, Nash, CP3, Wade, Kobe, Curry, Thomas etc. he's a tier behind. I have him in my top 50 ever, not my top 30.

That’s your list and I get it… but my list… I have everyone you mentioned above him, but Nash and cp3 unless cp3 wins 1. Nash 1 doesn’t count to me… and AI not far behind the ones with rings after taking the squad he had to the finals… you don’t take that type of squad to the finals by yourself… that was something to see and you won’t ever see again

I said AI was a great player but had his limitations.

He also played in a weak Eastern Conference and generally apart from the 2001 season, his Philly teams were very mediocore.

1997 - 22 wins
1998 - 31 wins
1999 - 28 wins
2000 - 49 wins
2001 - 56 wins
2002 - 43 wins
2003 - 48 wins
2004 - 33 wins
2005 - 43 wins
2006 - 38 wins

And even on the Nuggets him and Melo never got past the 1st round.

[DAWill1128]

The off ball play of guys like MJ, Kobe, AI were absolutely superb. Any kid growing up needs to watch how they moved off ball to get to better spots to score the ball. It keeps the team engaged, helps with managing doubles and traps, diversifies the number of spots on the court you are getting shots.