Thinking Basketball Offensive Legends, Allen Iverson

[JustBuzzin]

He just lacked synergy with other players. As a result there was just a cap on what he could do for you. Loved watching him. His off ball game was truly elite.

This is false. He simply didn't have a team around him in his prime. He didn't really have a decent supporting cast until Denver which he wasn't at his prime anymore.

It's still amazing he got that team to the Finals.


AI is a strange player he's probably one of the most popular players to ever play the game yet it seems like he's one of the most disrespected players as well. This guy was a top 5 sg in NBA history and he was 6ft playing that position. He played bigger than his size. He was amongst the best scorer's in the league for a 5 year stretch when his competition was against players like Shaq/Kobe/Duncan/KG/Tmac/Dirk.

AI was a problem he just lacked a supporting cast. He had to shoot a lot because that team had no scorers besides him.

I don’t know how you can call Iverson a top 5 SG when Jerry West, Jordan, Kobe, Wade, and Harden have played.

AI is definitely underrated by some, he played in the toughest era to score, and didn’t have any teammates who could score. 05-07 he was more efficient than he was 97-04.

Because I have him ranked 4th behind MJ/Kobe/Wade.

Jerry West and Harden are not better than AI.

Iverson played with bums. These 2 had other stars around them.

[TheGeneral99]

Why are you leaving the part out that everyone on your list had help whether it’d be the “big 3”, cp3 with prime Blake and deandre and Kobe with prime Shaq etc etc… AI had melo late in his career and that’s not really a good fit… but the fact is AI is in the conversation whether he’s on your list or not. You need to accept people gonna call your list out and not gonna agree with it…

Is AI not being in a top 30 controversial?

AI played with Melo late prime, of course for him that's also late career as he fell off drastically after his prime was over. Billups who had more success with those Denver teams was the same age. Paul who was mentioned for example had success with New Orleans, with Houston in late prime, even a very good season with OKC while just passing through, then some really good seasons with Phoenix. Even post prime he dropped 40+ to help his team get to the finals and still had 22/3/8 on 55/52 in the finals being guarded by Holiday. Those things definitely differentiate these players where we are discussing the upper echelon of players. It is a problem that AI without significant injured was not even a positive player anymore at 33.

IMO AI should be top 30 at least.. who can you name that’s above him in 30 spots

They were in two completely different situations. Paul had help in his prime and also now in his after years, and AI majority of his prime had nobody and that’s a huge game changer

I can name 30 players easily:

Jordan
Lebron
Kareem
Wilt
Bird
Magic
Kobe
Curry
Shaq
Duncan
Russell
Oscar
West
Dirk
M. Malone
K. Malone
Stockton
Garnett
Hakeem
Durant
Kawhi
Erving
Barkley
Robinson
Wade
Giannis
Jokic
CP3
Nash
Kidd
Isiah

That's over 30 players I just named in 2 minutes of thinking.

Personally I'd put guys like Harden, Westbrook, Pippen, Payton, Dominique, Ewing etc. over AI as well.

AI lands somewhere between 40 and 50 for me.

[dhsilv2]

I prob should’ve worded it better. You need another scorer to go to and they had no one but AI… you was not counting on mutombo to give you 20-25 and you need that 2nd go to especially in the playoffs

The problem was that AI didn't fit with a second go to scorer! And we saw that play out when he and Melo teammed up. Yeah, it would have been nice to have a better second scorer than McKie for sure. But would they have been better off with a better scorer than him but worse defender? Likely not.

Sure if you could have paired AI with Dray and Klay + Deke now we're talking a contender! But this was 2001...it was really hard to build teams with talent all around back then. Those 76ers were built to let AI do his on offense and the defense was built to do the rest.

AI was done when he teamed with melo though, but klay is the exact type of player I had in mind that could’ve teamed with AI and flourished … maybe even a player like booker also… them with mutombo controlling the defense and rest of the squad IMO could’ve beat the Lakers that series

AI was 31 when he went to Denver! He lead the league in minutes his first and ONLY full year there. he wasn't done. He wasn't at his best, but he wasn't done. The reality is he couldn't pair with another guy who needed the ball because he wasn't a good enough shooter or creator.

[Masigond]

The problem was that AI didn't fit with a second go to scorer! And we saw that play out when he and Melo teammed up. Yeah, it would have been nice to have a better second scorer than McKie for sure. But would they have been better off with a better scorer than him but worse defender? Likely not.

And we've seen that prior to 2001. Stackhouse, Larry Hughes, Jim Jackson - all of them capable scorers who should have been at least a good second option next to AI, but they could not co-exist with Iverson as they were on-ball scorers themselves. All of them were traded away or ran away from the Sixers as soon as possible.

I don't get the narrative that the Sixers failed to surround AI with good enough offensive players. It did not work, so they made the best out of it and surrounded him with players who didn't need the ball in their hands, thus having the most successful AI-led teams.
Sure, a good scoring big would arguably have been a good fit, but Derrick Coleman was too often injured and then washed up, and those were the times when it wasn't easy to trade for the coveted great big men. Duncan, Garnett or Shaq were way out of reach. Anyhow, the Sixers at least got Mutombo (who wasn't a good scorer but an excellent defensive anchor.

[dhsilv2]

Is AI not being in a top 30 controversial?

AI played with Melo late prime, of course for him that's also late career as he fell off drastically after his prime was over. Billups who had more success with those Denver teams was the same age. Paul who was mentioned for example had success with New Orleans, with Houston in late prime, even a very good season with OKC while just passing through, then some really good seasons with Phoenix. Even post prime he dropped 40+ to help his team get to the finals and still had 22/3/8 on 55/52 in the finals being guarded by Holiday. Those things definitely differentiate these players where we are discussing the upper echelon of players. It is a problem that AI without significant injured was not even a positive player anymore at 33.

IMO AI should be top 30 at least.. who can you name that’s above him in 30 spots

They were in two completely different situations. Paul had help in his prime and also now in his after years, and AI majority of his prime had nobody and that’s a huge game changer

I can name 30 players easily:

Jordan
Lebron
Kareem
Wilt
Bird
Magic
Kobe
Curry
Shaq
Duncan
Russell
Oscar
West
Dirk
M. Malone
K. Malone
Stockton
Garnett
Hakeem
Durant
Kawhi
Erving
Barkley
Robinson
Wade
Giannis
Jokic
CP3
Nash
Kidd
Isiah

That's over 30 players I just named in 2 minutes of thinking.

Personally I'd put guys like Harden, Westbrook, Pippen, Payton, Dominique, Ewing etc. over AI as well.

AI lands somewhere between 40 and 50 for me.

I'd consider AI over Nique, Westbrook, and Isiah.

But I've got a bunch more I"d slot in here. Pettit and Frazier as well as Mikan for sure.

[dhsilv2]

The problem was that AI didn't fit with a second go to scorer! And we saw that play out when he and Melo teammed up. Yeah, it would have been nice to have a better second scorer than McKie for sure. But would they have been better off with a better scorer than him but worse defender? Likely not.

And we've seen that prior to 2001. Stackhouse, Larry Hughes, Jim Jackson - all of them capable scorers who should have been at least a good second option next to AI, but they could not co-exist with Iverson as they were on-ball scorers themselves. All of them were traded away or ran away from the Sixers as soon as possible.

I don't get the narrative that the Sixers failed to surround AI with good enough offensive players. It did not work, so they made the best out of it and surrounded him with players who didn't need the ball in their hands, thus having the most successful AI-led teams.
Sure, a good scoring big would arguably have been a good fit, but Derrick Coleman was too often injured and then washed up, and those were the times when it wasn't easy to trade for the coveted great big men. Duncan, Garnett or Shaq were way out of reach. Anyhow, the Sixers at least got Mutombo (who wasn't a good scorer but an excellent defensive anchor.

AI imo was hurt by that era. That was a low point imo for skilled shooters in the NBA and that was what AI really needed. But that is what it is.

[ComeFlyWithMe]

This is false. He simply didn't have a team around him in his prime. He didn't really have a decent supporting cast until Denver which he wasn't at his prime anymore.

It's still amazing he got that team to the Finals.


AI is a strange player he's probably one of the most popular players to ever play the game yet it seems like he's one of the most disrespected players as well. This guy was a top 5 sg in NBA history and he was 6ft playing that position. He played bigger than his size. He was amongst the best scorer's in the league for a 5 year stretch when his competition was against players like Shaq/Kobe/Duncan/KG/Tmac/Dirk.

AI was a problem he just lacked a supporting cast. He had to shoot a lot because that team had no scorers besides him.

I don’t know how you can call Iverson a top 5 SG when Jerry West, Jordan, Kobe, Wade, and Harden have played.

AI is definitely underrated by some, he played in the toughest era to score, and didn’t have any teammates who could score. 05-07 he was more efficient than he was 97-04.

Because I have him ranked 4th behind MJ/Kobe/Wade.

Jerry West and Harden are not better than AI.

Iverson played with bums. These 2 had other stars around them.

NO CHANCE IN HELL is Iverson better than the great Jerry West. That is absolute malarkey. Jerry West is a winner. AI is not. PERIOD.

[JustBuzzin]

I don’t know how you can call Iverson a top 5 SG when Jerry West, Jordan, Kobe, Wade, and Harden have played.

AI is definitely underrated by some, he played in the toughest era to score, and didn’t have any teammates who could score. 05-07 he was more efficient than he was 97-04.

Because I have him ranked 4th behind MJ/Kobe/Wade.

Jerry West and Harden are not better than AI.

Iverson played with bums. These 2 had other stars around them.

NO CHANCE IN HELL is Iverson better than the great Jerry West. That is absolute malarkey. Jerry West is a winner. AI is not. PERIOD.

West winning has nothing to do with being a better player. AI is one of the best scorer's in NBA history.

AI was playing on some bad teams during his prime.

[SweaterBae]

Jerry West was 5x All-Defense and was also better at uh, everything else.

[Dangun]

Is AI not being in a top 30 controversial?

AI played with Melo late prime, of course for him that's also late career as he fell off drastically after his prime was over. Billups who had more success with those Denver teams was the same age. Paul who was mentioned for example had success with New Orleans, with Houston in late prime, even a very good season with OKC while just passing through, then some really good seasons with Phoenix. Even post prime he dropped 40+ to help his team get to the finals and still had 22/3/8 on 55/52 in the finals being guarded by Holiday. Those things definitely differentiate these players where we are discussing the upper echelon of players. It is a problem that AI without significant injured was not even a positive player anymore at 33.

IMO AI should be top 30 at least.. who can you name that’s above him in 30 spots

They were in two completely different situations. Paul had help in his prime and also now in his after years, and AI majority of his prime had nobody and that’s a huge game changer

I can name 30 players easily:

Jordan
Lebron
Kareem
Wilt
Bird
Magic
Kobe
Curry
Shaq
Duncan
Russell
Oscar
West
Dirk
M. Malone
K. Malone
Stockton
Garnett
Hakeem
Durant
Kawhi
Erving
Barkley
Robinson
Wade
Giannis
Jokic
CP3
Nash
Kidd
Isiah

That's over 30 players I just named in 2 minutes of thinking.

Personally I'd put guys like Harden, Westbrook, Pippen, Payton, Dominique, Ewing etc. over AI as well.

AI lands somewhere between 40 and 50 for me.

For me, AI replaces Barkley, k Malone, Stockton, Nash, cp3, Kidd maybe, Erving and kawhi and AI is easily over the shoutout players you mentioned..

[Masigond]

West winning has nothing to do with being a better player. AI is one of the best scorer's in NBA history.

AI was playing on some bad teams during his prime.

West was better. Could score in bunches as well, way more efficient, better off-ball player, better shooter, better shot selection and way better adapting to different offensive team strategies.

AI had arguably the better motor and is indubitably a GOAT shot creator. The downfall is that he had too many games when those difficult shots weren't falling.

[TheGeneral99]

The problem was that AI didn't fit with a second go to scorer! And we saw that play out when he and Melo teammed up. Yeah, it would have been nice to have a better second scorer than McKie for sure. But would they have been better off with a better scorer than him but worse defender? Likely not.

And we've seen that prior to 2001. Stackhouse, Larry Hughes, Jim Jackson - all of them capable scorers who should have been at least a good second option next to AI, but they could not co-exist with Iverson as they were on-ball scorers themselves. All of them were traded away or ran away from the Sixers as soon as possible.

I don't get the narrative that the Sixers failed to surround AI with good enough offensive players. It did not work, so they made the best out of it and surrounded him with players who didn't need the ball in their hands, thus having the most successful AI-led teams.
Sure, a good scoring big would arguably have been a good fit, but Derrick Coleman was too often injured and then washed up, and those were the times when it wasn't easy to trade for the coveted great big men. Duncan, Garnett or Shaq were way out of reach. Anyhow, the Sixers at least got Mutombo (who wasn't a good scorer but an excellent defensive anchor.

AI imo was hurt by that era. That was a low point imo for skilled shooters in the NBA and that was what AI really needed. But that is what it is.

At the same time, AI was also taking in an incredible 25-27 shots a game in his prime, which is an insane amount of volume.

His 2002 season he took 27.4 shots per game, led the league averaging 31ppg while shooting an horrendous 39% from the field and 29% from 3.

Compare that to Steph Curry who takes 20 shots a game, Morant who takes 20 shots a game, or Tatum that takes 21 shots a game.

[picc]

West winning has nothing to do with being a better player. AI is one of the best scorer's in NBA history.

AI was playing on some bad teams during his prime.

West was better. Could score in bunches as well, way more efficient, better off-ball player, better shooter, better shot selection and way better adapting to different offensive team strategies.

AI had arguably the better motor and is indubitably a GOAT shot creator.

Yeah this is interesting. AI was creating shots for teammates at an all-time rate. What if those teammates were all 40% three-point shooters and athletic rim runners?

I think we can acknowledge he doesn't scale the best with other dominant on-ball players and is an inefficient scorer relatively, but what if we just made his Sixers teammates a lot better at what they were supposed to do anyway?

I also think AI could be much more effective today in the spaced 4-out offenses than what he was working with back then.

I'd like to see Allen Iverson at his peak playing with this spacing



instead of this spacing

[JustBuzzin]

West winning has nothing to do with being a better player. AI is one of the best scorer's in NBA history.

AI was playing on some bad teams during his prime.

West was better. Could score in bunches as well, way more efficient, better off-ball player, better shooter, better shot selection and way better adapting to different offensive team strategies.

AI had arguably the better motor and is indubitably a GOAT shot creator. The downfall is that he had too many games when those difficult shots weren't falling.

West played with the Shaq of his generation in Wilt Chamberlain and only got 1 championship.

Imagine the championships Iverson would have if he played with Shaq.

That is why I put AI over West. You can't have West and Chamberlain on the same team and only have 1 championship to show for it.

[scrabbarista]

This comment on the video is great:

Allen Iverson is an interesting Litmus test for analysing NBA players and, more specifically, scoring.

When looking purely at his basic counting stats, he looks pretty damn amazing. Truly elite in fact. However, when looking through his advanced stats, and other metrics, all of a sudden Allen looks much less impressive, especially in regards to his shooting efficiency. When analyzed even further, Allen flips back around a bit, where it seems that despite his ineffciency, his volume scoring and playmaking can be at a truly elite level, especially in the playoffs. Whereas some fans (and especially former players) seem to heavily overrate AI, lauding his scoring prowess and 'bag', as well as conflating his impact on the league with his abilities and for some reason giving him a boost simply for being small; others still under-rate him, citing his poor scoring efficiency and writing off his game entirely. It seems that the truth of Allen Iverson lies, as it often does, somewhere in the middle.

Yeah, this is where I'm at, too - naturally enough, as someone who loves and relies on analytics but is always willing to trust my eyes and intuition.

Kobe is a similar case to Iverson. These kinds of players will never be my favorites, but I tend to think they impact the game in ways that analytics maybe underrate, even as their raw numbers lead to an overvaluation of their impact.

[scrabbarista]

Iverson was much better shooter than Philly's offense allowed him to be.
Because he shot .456 in his 135 games with Denver.

That isn't quite accurate. He saw an immediate leap in 2FG% as soon as the 04-05 season hit, and it remained consistently that way until his last two seasons. Turns out, if you aren't allowed to be quite as physical with him, it's far more difficult to stay in front of him and he can generate better looks. Weird.

Guys his size benefit immensely when rules for perimeter contact are straitened. This is part of why I underrated Trae Young coming out of the draft. The freedom-of-movement emphasis that was implemented in his rookie season has helped him a lot, for sure.

[Masigond]

West played with the Shaq of his generation in Wilt Chamberlain and only got 1 championship.

Imagine the championships Iverson would have if he played with Shaq.

That is why I put AI over West. You can't have West and Chamberlain on the same team and only have 1 championship to show for it.

Oh boy...

[Primedeion]

This comment on the video is great:

Allen Iverson is an interesting Litmus test for analysing NBA players and, more specifically, scoring.

When looking purely at his basic counting stats, he looks pretty damn amazing. Truly elite in fact. However, when looking through his advanced stats, and other metrics, all of a sudden Allen looks much less impressive, especially in regards to his shooting efficiency. When analyzed even further, Allen flips back around a bit, where it seems that despite his ineffciency, his volume scoring and playmaking can be at a truly elite level, especially in the playoffs. Whereas some fans (and especially former players) seem to heavily overrate AI, lauding his scoring prowess and 'bag', as well as conflating his impact on the league with his abilities and for some reason giving him a boost simply for being small; others still under-rate him, citing his poor scoring efficiency and writing off his game entirely. It seems that the truth of Allen Iverson lies, as it often does, somewhere in the middle.

Yeah, this is where I'm at, too - naturally enough, as someone who loves and relies on analytics but is always willing to trust my eyes and intuition.

Kobe is a similar case to Iverson. These kinds of players will never be my favorites, but I tend to think they impact the game in ways that analytics maybe underrate, even as their raw numbers lead to an overvaluation of their impact.

Except Kobe was vastly more efficient, a vastly better defender, and far greater ceiling raiser. They're nothing alike.

[ComeFlyWithMe]

West played with the Shaq of his generation in Wilt Chamberlain and only got 1 championship.

Imagine the championships Iverson would have if he played with Shaq.

That is why I put AI over West. You can't have West and Chamberlain on the same team and only have 1 championship to show for it.

Oh boy...

Smh. That's all I can say! Wilt was NOT Shaq, especially when he was on the Lakers. He was not allowed to be as physical as Shaq was back then. Wilt was a monster no doubt, but with the Lakers he played more as a defensive player, rebounder and passer. He could still dominate offensively when he wanted to. Those teams were also facing the juggernaut Celtics teams if that era. Those teams were almost unstoppable. Iverson is not in the same sentence as The Logo. Folks don't realize how spectacular Jerry West was.

[JustBuzzin]

West played with the Shaq of his generation in Wilt Chamberlain and only got 1 championship.

Imagine the championships Iverson would have if he played with Shaq.

That is why I put AI over West. You can't have West and Chamberlain on the same team and only have 1 championship to show for it.

Oh boy...

Tell me where I lied?

Who you play with matters. Wilt and Shaq the 2 most dominant players to ever play this game. For West to have played with Wilt and only have 1 championship is kind of disappointing.

Meanwhile AI best teammate in his prime was Dikembe Mutumbo who was past his prime and never a offensive threat as a scorer.