KD vs Dirk at peaks

[rk2023]

Who would you take and why?

[therealbig3]

I think KD certainly peaked higher defensively, but offensively, Dirk to me was just the more reliable player, especially in the playoffs. KD has never really stepped up and dominated to the degree that Dirk did unless he's had another MVP-level player next to him. Dirk in 2011 had a deep team of really good role players, but nobody that could take pressure off him the way Westbrook and Curry did for KD.

I think people get enamored with KD's ability and not with the actual utility of what he brings to the table. For example, he's more athletic and has a better handle than Dirk, which means he's better at breaking defenders down off the dribble from the perimeter and pulling up for a shot or taking it all the way to the rim...that's great. But he's not THAT great at it that you would really want him to do that all that much, which means as a functional advantage...it doesn't actually mean much. They're both at their best in terms of being off-ball players that catch and shoot or catch and create from the mid post from a triple threat position.

I think KD"s defense makes this close, but I would take Dirk personally.

[One_and_Done]

KD handily to me. Stats back it up, as does the eye test and theoretical role.

[iggymcfrack]

2011 Dirk put up all-time RAPM numbers leading the league with a massive margin between first and second. He led a team who was 2-7 when he didn’t play and had a point differential of -5.4 (RS) and -6.6 (PS) with him on the bench past 3 all-time trios (Kobe/Pau/Bynum, Durant/Westbrook/Harden, and LeBron/Wade/Bosh). 2014 KD played like garbage in the playoffs and 2017 KD was either the second or third most valuable player on his own team. This isn’t close to being close.

[Ben AN]

KD easily, he's >/= Dirk in everything except screening, rebounding & post play. KD's not that meaningfully worse at those last 2 things either.

[One_and_Done]

2011 Dirk put up all-time RAPM numbers leading the league with a massive margin between first and second. He led a team who was 2-7 when he didn’t play and had a point differential of -5.4 (RS) and -6.6 (PS) with him on the bench past 3 all-time trios (Kobe/Pau/Bynum, Durant/Westbrook/Harden, and LeBron/Wade/Bosh). 2014 KD played like garbage in the playoffs and 2017 KD was either the second or third most valuable player on his own team. This isn’t close to being close.

This is overstating things.

The Lakers were a deep, talented team, but calling Bynun part of an elite trio is silly. He was a promising big with all-star potential, but he's not the trio of anything.

Harden was coming off the bench and was in his 2nd year. He wasn't Harden yet, and the OKC team wasn't an optimal set up for KD. Dirk beating them is still a feather in his cap, but to call 2nd year Harden, 3rd year Westbrook and 4th year KD 'an all-time trio' is a bit silly. They were aged 22, 22 & 21 in their 2nd ever playoff run. They overachieved just to make the WCFs. These guys were not at their peaks yet, nor was 21 year old Ibaka.

The Heatles were in their 1st year together and hadn't figured out how to play. Wade was a sub-optimal fit with Bron. It's still a big achievement for Dirk, but it's also clear the 2012 Heat would have crushed the 2011 Mavs, once they figured out they had to play Bosh at the 5 and put shooting around Lebron.

The samples in 2011 are also too small to be compelling, and don't align with the Mavs record over his whole career in terms of wins with him out. In such a small sample, with other guys out too, some of those non-Dirk losses were the Mavs strategically punting the game no doubt.

[iggymcfrack]

2011 Dirk put up all-time RAPM numbers leading the league with a massive margin between first and second. He led a team who was 2-7 when he didn’t play and had a point differential of -5.4 (RS) and -6.6 (PS) with him on the bench past 3 all-time trios (Kobe/Pau/Bynum, Durant/Westbrook/Harden, and LeBron/Wade/Bosh). 2014 KD played like garbage in the playoffs and 2017 KD was either the second or third most valuable player on his own team. This isn’t close to being close.

This is overstating things.

The Lakers were a deep, talented team, but calling Bynun part of an elite trio is silly. He was a promising big with all-star potential, but he's not the trio of anything.

Harden was coming off the bench and was in his 2nd year. He wasn't Harden yet, and the OKC team wasn't an optimal set up for KD. Dirk beating them is still a feather in his cap, but to call 2nd year Harden, 3rd year Westbrook and 4th year KD 'an all-time trio' is a bit silly. They were aged 22, 22 & 21 in their 2nd ever playoff run. They overachieved just to make the WCFs. These guys were not at their peaks yet, nor was 21 year old Ibaka.

The Heatles were in their 1st year together and hadn't figured out how to play. Wade was a sub-optimal fit with Bron. It's still a big achievement for Dirk, but it's also clear the 2012 Heat would have crushed the 2011 Mavs, once they figured out they had to play Bosh at the 5 and put shooting around Lebron.

The samples in 2011 are also too small to be compelling, and don't align with the Mavs record over his whole career in terms of wins with him out. In such a small sample, with other guys out too, some of those non-Dirk losses were the Mavs strategically punting the game no doubt.

This is 100% false. Kidd, Terry, Chandler, and Barea played every single game that Dirk missed. Marion played in 8 out of 9. The Mavs were 24-5 when Dirk got hurt and 26-12 when he came back. It also fits with the point differential when he was on the bench.

[One_and_Done]

But the Mavs record with/without Dirk does not look like that over his career generally, which suggests it's something of an anomoly/small sample noise, rather than indicating it represents Dirk's floor raising ability.

For reference, if we exclude 2011, the Mavs were 20-13 in Dirk's absence from 2002-12.

[Cavsfansince84]

This is Dirk for me unless we are going to compare them as ancillary pieces in which case it's probably KD but Dirk was never close to being that during his prime. I mean I don't think its much separating them but I'd rather have Dirk as my team's go to scorer/mvp/leader.

[70sFan]

I think it's reasonably close and in most situations I may prefer Durant a little bit, but I will mention that what Dirk did in the playoffs as a lone star impresses me more than what Durant did (in part because Durant didn't have much chances without other superstars next to him to be fair).

[iggymcfrack]

But the Mavs record with/without Dirk does not look like that over his career generally, which suggests it's something of an anomoly/small sample noise, rather than indicating it represents Dirk's floor raising ability.

For reference, if we exclude 2011, the Mavs were 20-13 in Dirk's absence from 2002-12.

How is this relevant? The only players that were on both the 2006 team and the 2011 team were Dirk and JET. The only 2011 player the Mavs picked up in 2007 was JJ Barea. The 2011 team played absolutely terrible without Dirk whether he sat or was on the bench and with him they were utterly dominant.

[One_and_Done]

I mean, is your contention the 2011 team around Dirk was rubbish? I doubt it. If not, then the sample without Dirk is assumedly mostly small sample noise. Certainly previous seasons didn't indicate Dirk had some huge floor raising effect, is the point.

[iggymcfrack]

I mean, is your contention the 2011 team around Dirk was rubbish? I doubt it. If not, then the sample without Dirk is assumedly mostly small sample noise. Certainly previous seasons didn't indicate Dirk had some huge floor raising effect, is the point.

It’s my contention is that it’s worse than any supporting cast Durant had after 2010 as he’s continually failed when he didn’t have a better player to lean on. It’s also my contention that it’s one of the worst supporting casts to win a championship in the modern era.

[One_and_Done]

Yeh that seems prima facie preposterous on every level

[70sFan]

Yeh that seems prima facie preposterous on every level

What exactly? I think most of 2010-21 teams Durant played in were more talented (which doesn't always mean better) than 2011 Mavs. I think people vastly underestimate defensive talent of this team, so I wouldn't agree that it's among the weakest teams that won the title - but at the same time it's certainly not among the most talented either.

[One_and_Done]

Well for one thing if the team is 'more talented', but a bad fit, then it's a worse team alot of times. Secondly the talent is irrelevant if it gets hurt, as often happened to KDs team mates. That's problem 1.

His 2nd preposterous point is that KD has never succeeded without a 'better team mate'. Prime KD has had exactly 1 better team mate in his career; Curry. So that point is wrong too, I don't even want to hear the arguments he wants to advance about Westbrick or whoever being better than him. It's nonsensical.

Then there's 'weakest support cast ofall-time', which is equally absurd.

[70sFan]

Well for one thing if the team is 'more talented', but a bad fit, then it's a worse team alot of times. Secondly the talent is irrelevant if it gets hurt, as often happened to KDs team mates. That's problem 1.

His 2nd preposterous point is that KD has never succeeded without a 'better team mate'. Prime KD has had exactly 1 better team mate in his career; Curry. So that point is wrong too, I don't even want to hear the arguments he wants to advance about Westbrick or whoever being better than him. It's nonsensical.

Then there's 'weakest support cast ofall-time', which is equally absurd.

The problem is that Durant's teams didn't have any problems with fit. Durant needed good on-ball creator to thrive and he always had that.

Second point might be unfair, but it's technically true as Durant never won the title without Curry.

Third point is something I disagree with, but it's certainly among the weaker ones.

[One_and_Done]

Yeh the 2016 Thunder, where Ibaka waa the 2nd best shooter after KD in the starters, was a great fit.

[70sFan]

Yeh the 2016 Thunder, where Ibaka waa the 2nd best shooter after KD in the starters, was a great fit.

It was, they had three main things that helped Durant's the most:

- playmaking from Westbrook,
- offensive rebounding,
- great defensive personel.

They also had two solid shooters off the bench in Morrow and Waiters. It's not great, but not horrible in that era and I definitely disagree that it was a poor fit for Durant.

[Mogspan]

2011 Dirk put up all-time RAPM numbers leading the league with a massive margin between first and second. He led a team who was 2-7 when he didn’t play and had a point differential of -5.4 (RS) and -6.6 (PS) with him on the bench past 3 all-time trios (Kobe/Pau/Bynum, Durant/Westbrook/Harden, and LeBron/Wade/Bosh). 2014 KD played like garbage in the playoffs and 2017 KD was either the second or third most valuable player on his own team. This isn’t close to being close.

KD:

Shooting
Overall scoring
Defense
Passing

Dirk:

Rebounding


Dirk didn't reach his peak at 33, bro. He had a flash in the pan playoff run against teams that choked. Great player and more respectable than KD, but he's basically KD if you made him a quarter the athlete, a less talented shooter, and a less talented passer.