Is Kobe given the most flack of any star? Highlighting inconsistent arguments against him.

[flytimes11]

"It's unique and can't be measured, yet I measure it into the top 5 to 10 careers in NBA history range."

Either you can measure it or you can't. You're talking out of both sides of your mouth.

Kobe was the best "bad shot maker", due to his absurdly elite balance and body control. The effect of this was that no team could ever be certain that they could stop Kobe from shooting under any circumstances and he would often take "bad" shots. This meant that the defensive coverage of him had to be different. Point of attack defenders had to stay on him and could not step back and help defenders had to shade him and even throw double/triple teams at him, which lead to favorable outcomes for the Lakers

This isn't unique to Kobe. Sure, Kobe is the best at making the most out of a bad situation, the problem was never his ability to put pressure on defenses and force them to pay more attention to him. The problem with Kobe was his tendency to get himself into bad situations when he didn't need to in the first place.

These things can be measured to a certain extent, and while the eye test certainly is a part of understanding a players' impact, claiming just "well he just had way more impact than stats" and having nothing but "muh ringz" to back it up is basically playing make-believe basketball.

Kobe won back 2 back Chips. Nothing make believe about that. What bad situations are you talking about? Do you not see how 3 people defending Kobe provides a favorable advantage for the lakers bigs?

[nikster]

I take the argument seriously. His resume speaks for itself. It’s a lot of people outside of Realgm. This the only place I really see him get disrespected.

From what i see “most people” on here properly rank Kobe and respect what he brought to the game. Incredible talent and the closet thing we will probably ever see to Jordan. I personally have him right outside the top 10 of all time. The PC board has some weird rankings of players from what ive seen but i think most people on the general board have him ranked properly. He obviously wasnt perfect and he only received 2 finals mvps out of the 5 championships because of Shaq. I think thats what hurts his cause for top 10. He was only the best player on his team for 2 championships (arguably).

It does. But the only people willing to go there, on record, typically due so in absence of acknowledging what Kobe did to help LA make the Finals during those championship seasons.

Had there been an award for MVP of the conference playoffs like we have now, Kobe would have won every year the Lakers made the Finals from 2000-2010

I think in 2000 he has no chance. 2001 he is better in the WCF but the first 2 rounds i think edge goes to Shaq. 2002 Shaq was better in first round and the WCF, Kobe better against the Spurs. 2004 edge to Kobe. But in all those seasons, especially the 3 peat, Shaq was the bigger focus of the defense. I think Kobe gets 1, lucky to get 2, conference MVPs those 4 years

[dj20001]

From what i see “most people” on here properly rank Kobe and respect what he brought to the game. Incredible talent and the closet thing we will probably ever see to Jordan. I personally have him right outside the top 10 of all time. The PC board has some weird rankings of players from what ive seen but i think most people on the general board have him ranked properly. He obviously wasnt perfect and he only received 2 finals mvps out of the 5 championships because of Shaq. I think thats what hurts his cause for top 10. He was only the best player on his team for 2 championships (arguably).

It does. But the only people willing to go there, on record, typically due so in absence of acknowledging what Kobe did to help LA make the Finals during those championship seasons.

Had there been an award for MVP of the conference playoffs like we have now, Kobe would have won every year the Lakers made the Finals from 2000-2010

I think in 2000 he has no chance. 2001 he is better in the WCF but the first 2 rounds i think edge goes to Shaq. 2002 Shaq was better in first round and the WCF, Kobe better against the Spurs. 2004 edge to Kobe. But in all those seasons, especially the 3 peat, Shaq was the bigger focus of the defense. I think Kobe gets 1, lucky to get 2, conference MVPs those 4 years

w/o any context as to what "better" means I'm going to stick with my original point

[dj20001]

Read on Twitter

Its called the "Kobe Era" because he won the most rings from 2000-2010. Its not rocket science.

The only reason it appears that way is due to the fact that folks on here only credit Kobe for two rings and even then, we hear about FG%, efficiency and fake all defensive team awards + what Gasol, Odom and Artest allegedly did ad nauseam as a way to discredit those titles (and his career as a whole) as well.

[maxpower8888]

Between 1999-00 and 2009-10 seasons, Kobe went to the Finals 7 times, winning 5 chips. In those 11 seasons, there was a 64% chance that Kobe would be playing in the Finals each season, that's why it's called the Kobe era.

[Jamaaliver]

Its called the "Kobe Era" because he won the most rings from 2000-2010. Its not rocket science.

Between 1999-00 and 2009-10 seasons, Kobe went to the Finals 7 times, winning 5 chips. In those 11 seasons, there was a 64% chance that Kobe would be playing in the Finals each season, that's why it's called the Kobe era.

For those of us old enough to have watched this period play out in real time and actually follow the day-to-day, it was not the Kobe era. He was a major player during this period. But, the middle of the decade was riddled with some fairly ugly moments of irrelevance and disgust for #8 and the Lakers.

And that's just on-the-court....


Hard Truth time:
Kobe was a tremendous basketball player and competitor. One of the best offensive players to pick up a ball. But he was also arrogant, immature, selfish and led a lot of mediocre LA Teams without Phil Jackson aboard.

[Primedeion]

Its called the "Kobe Era" because he won the most rings from 2000-2010. Its not rocket science.

Between 1999-00 and 2009-10 seasons, Kobe went to the Finals 7 times, winning 5 chips. In those 11 seasons, there was a 64% chance that Kobe would be playing in the Finals each season, that's why it's called the Kobe era.

For those of us old enough to have watched this period play out in real time and actually follow the day-to-day, it was not the Kobe era. He was a major player during this period. But, the middle of the decade was riddled with some fairly ugly moments of irrelevance and disgust for #8 and the Lakers.

And that's just on-the-court....


Hard Truth time:
Kobe was a tremendous basketball player and competitor. One of the best offensive players to pick up a ball. But he was also arrogant, immature, selfish and led a lot of mediocre LA Teams without Phil Jackson aboard.

You don't seem to understand the difference between truth and opinion. I hate to break it you, but you spewing silly narratives don't make them true.

[Jamaaliver]

You don't seem to understand the difference between truth and opinion. I hate to break it you, but you spewing silly narratives don't make them true.

In an effort to lionize a great player, you may be ignoring the actual ugliness that played out in real time.

It was rough for a while there.

Read on Twitter

[maxpower8888]

Its called the "Kobe Era" because he won the most rings from 2000-2010. Its not rocket science.

Between 1999-00 and 2009-10 seasons, Kobe went to the Finals 7 times, winning 5 chips. In those 11 seasons, there was a 64% chance that Kobe would be playing in the Finals each season, that's why it's called the Kobe era.

For those of us old enough to have watched this period play out in real time and actually follow the day-to-day, it was not the Kobe era. He was a major player during this period. But, the middle of the decade was riddled with some fairly ugly moments of irrelevance and disgust for #8 and the Lakers.

And that's just on-the-court....


Hard Truth time:
Kobe was a tremendous basketball player and competitor. One of the best offensive players to pick up a ball. But he was also arrogant, immature, selfish and led a lot of mediocre LA Teams without Phil Jackson aboard.

You don't seem to understand the difference between truth and opinion. I hate to break it you, but you spewing silly narratives don't make them true.

Well he's right in the sense that, yes, for those early years Kobe was not regarded as the best player in the world, just an up and coming superstar (like Tatum or Luka now for example). We had Shaq, then TMac and Timmy each had a season or two where they were considered the best, and then Kobe started being touted as the best around 2005 or so. It became the general consensus by 2006 but then LeBron started coming into his prime and by 2009 already there was a strong debate and at that time the only thing that really kept Kobe in the debate was that he was going to the Finals and winning championships. So at the end of the day, even though he wasn't statistically the best he was the guy to beat. Then in 2010-11 LeBron moved to Miami and the LeBron era officially started, in the following years Kobe would start to decline and the rest is history.

That's why it's called the Kobe era. Only when looking back at things in hindsight is when we can differentiate and label them. Duncan went to two more Finals in 2013 and 14 and won the title in 14. At that point in his career he was still a great player, but also clearly not the same player he used to be, and those years were well into the LeBron era where there was no real argument as to who the best player in the world was.

That's why the Kobe era is a real thing, he was a highly popular player who played an aesthetically pleasing brand of basketball while also going to most the Finals in the 2000-10 decade.

[nikster]

It does. But the only people willing to go there, on record, typically due so in absence of acknowledging what Kobe did to help LA make the Finals during those championship seasons.

Had there been an award for MVP of the conference playoffs like we have now, Kobe would have won every year the Lakers made the Finals from 2000-2010

I think in 2000 he has no chance. 2001 he is better in the WCF but the first 2 rounds i think edge goes to Shaq. 2002 Shaq was better in first round and the WCF, Kobe better against the Spurs. 2004 edge to Kobe. But in all those seasons, especially the 3 peat, Shaq was the bigger focus of the defense. I think Kobe gets 1, lucky to get 2, conference MVPs those 4 years

w/o any context as to what "better" means I'm going to stick with my original point

2000 should be pretty easy. 2002 WCF for example, Shaq scored more, significantly more efficiently while commanding more defensive attention and dominating the boards, had a better plus/minus in 6 of the 7 games etc...

Not like you provided much context just blanket saying Kobe would win it every year.

[Primedeion]

You don't seem to understand the difference between truth and opinion. I hate to break it you, but you spewing silly narratives don't make them true.

In an effort to lionize a great player, you may be ignoring the actual ugliness that played out in real time.

It was rough for a while there.

Read on Twitter

Yeah, posting some random tweet makes your argument so much stronger. Good job.

[flytimes11]

Its called the "Kobe Era" because he won the most rings from 2000-2010. Its not rocket science.

Between 1999-00 and 2009-10 seasons, Kobe went to the Finals 7 times, winning 5 chips. In those 11 seasons, there was a 64% chance that Kobe would be playing in the Finals each season, that's why it's called the Kobe era.

For those of us old enough to have watched this period play out in real time and actually follow the day-to-day, it was not the Kobe era. He was a major player during this period. But, the middle of the decade was riddled with some fairly ugly moments of irrelevance and disgust for #8 and the Lakers.

And that's just on-the-court....


Hard Truth time:
Kobe was a tremendous basketball player and competitor. One of the best offensive players to pick up a ball. But he was also arrogant, immature, selfish and led a lot of mediocre LA Teams without Phil Jackson aboard.

Would overachieving with kwame, Luke Walton, Chris mihm, Brian cook, etc really make people look at Kobe better? That team was going nowhere. As soon as he got some help he took out the defending champion spurs in 5… Kobe era sounds appropriate. Duncan never repeated either and didn’t make it to back 2 back finals till 13-14.

[Doranku]

You don't seem to understand the difference between truth and opinion. I hate to break it you, but you spewing silly narratives don't make them true.

In an effort to lionize a great player, you may be ignoring the actual ugliness that played out in real time.

It was rough for a while there.

Read on Twitter

Yeah, posting some random tweet makes your argument so much stronger. Good job.

It's so funny to me that there is video evidence of Shaq himself saying he left because LA wouldn't pay him, it wasn't because of Kobe, etc... but then you still have guys quoting people like "Eddythafuture" claiming Kobe ran Shaq outta town. Kobe haters live in their own little world. It's sad and also quite alarming how they just disregard any and all facts to fit their narrative.

[Jamaaliver]

The denial is strong in this thread.

Again, KOBE is one of the greatest offensive players of the past 40 years. But a big chunk of that decade saw Kobe as a hated man putting up empty stats on a middling team.

The kid went years without winning a single playoff series IN HIS PRIME and then demanded a trade to the Bulls. And, IIRC, the Bulls turned down the offer. The dude was considered toxic during this period. His own coach (the greatest of All Time) told the front office he couldn't work with the dude and then wrote a book where he trashed the kid.

It was legit bad...for those old enough to actually watch it play out.

[Jamaaliver]

It's so funny to me that there is video evidence of Shaq himself saying he left because LA wouldn't pay him, it wasn't because of Kobe, etc...

2004 LA Times:

The Lakers have agreed in principle to trade Shaquille O’Neal to the Miami Heat...

In exchange for O’Neal, one of the greatest players of his era, the Lakers will receive forwards Lamar Odom and Caron Butler, center Brian Grant and a future first-round draft pick, the sources said. None of the players coming from Miami has been an All-Star.

O’Neal arrived as a free agent from the Orlando Magic in 1996, heralding the beginning of what many envisioned as a long-running championship dynasty...But it all fell apart last season amid open rancor between the two and felony rape charges against Bryant.

O’Neal had intimated weeks ago that Buss had chosen Bryant over the good of the team, hoping to lure him away from other free-agent offers. It was a blow to O’Neal, who had carried the franchise in Bryant’s early years and then feuded with him thereafter, usually over control of the team’s offense and locker room.

[Lakers Guard Derek] Fisher said at a summer league game in Long Beach. “The way everything went down, it seemed inevitable.

“I don’t think that when the season was over Shaq was really that adamant about leaving. He obviously was disappointed, like all of us were. But that changed when the line was clearly drawn that it wasn’t his team and it was all about Kobe and that he’ll have to take a back seat. I think at that point, Shaq washed his hands of the Lakers."

Bryant will go on trial on Aug. 27 for felony sexual assault in Eagle, Colo. If convicted, he could face life in prison.

[SonicMcMahon]

Realgm isn't one person.
One person making one argument and another person making another argument is not an inconsistency.

Your OP is a flourishing garden of strawmen.

Same goes for fanships.

Gotta roll my eyes when I hear: "Oh, and I bet now Celtics fans like player X, when they jsut said they hated player x last week."

[Doranku]

It's so funny to me that there is video evidence of Shaq himself saying he left because LA wouldn't pay him, it wasn't because of Kobe, etc...

2004 LA Times:

The Lakers have agreed in principle to trade Shaquille O’Neal to the Miami Heat...

In exchange for O’Neal, one of the greatest players of his era, the Lakers will receive forwards Lamar Odom and Caron Butler, center Brian Grant and a future first-round draft pick, the sources said. None of the players coming from Miami has been an All-Star.

O’Neal arrived as a free agent from the Orlando Magic in 1996, heralding the beginning of what many envisioned as a long-running championship dynasty...But it all fell apart last season amid open rancor between the two and felony rape charges against Bryant.

O’Neal had intimated weeks ago that Buss had chosen Bryant over the good of the team, hoping to lure him away from other free-agent offers. It was a blow to O’Neal, who had carried the franchise in Bryant’s early years and then feuded with him thereafter, usually over control of the team’s offense and locker room.

[Lakers Guard Derek] Fisher said at a summer league game in Long Beach. “The way everything went down, it seemed inevitable.

“I don’t think that when the season was over Shaq was really that adamant about leaving. He obviously was disappointed, like all of us were. But that changed when the line was clearly drawn that it wasn’t his team and it was all about Kobe and that he’ll have to take a back seat. I think at that point, Shaq washed his hands of the Lakers."

Bryant will go on trial on Aug. 27 for felony sexual assault in Eagle, Colo. If convicted, he could face life in prison.

Speculation vs Shaq's words himself:

"The reason why I got traded; it wasn’t about me and Kobe’s beef. It was that they wanted me to take less money. I’m not doing that," Shaq said in an interview. "I got money; I had money. I just should’ve been like, ‘Alright, I raised you enough. It’s your team now. I know what I’m going to do. I’m still going to do my 28 and 10.’ But I was like, ‘Nah, I want $150 [million].’"

"If I had to do it all again, I probably would have had a meeting with the family. ‘What y’all want to do? You want me to take less money, take a lesser role, stay here, or do you still want me to be Shaq?’” O’Neal said. "See, it’s that ego. The ego still got me what I wanted. I still went to Miami, Pat took care of me, and I still won one. But I would have liked to stay [in L.A.] the rest of my career."

[flytimes11]

It's so funny to me that there is video evidence of Shaq himself saying he left because LA wouldn't pay him, it wasn't because of Kobe, etc...

2004 LA Times:

The Lakers have agreed in principle to trade Shaquille O’Neal to the Miami Heat...

In exchange for O’Neal, one of the greatest players of his era, the Lakers will receive forwards Lamar Odom and Caron Butler, center Brian Grant and a future first-round draft pick, the sources said. None of the players coming from Miami has been an All-Star.

O’Neal arrived as a free agent from the Orlando Magic in 1996, heralding the beginning of what many envisioned as a long-running championship dynasty...But it all fell apart last season amid open rancor between the two and felony rape charges against Bryant.

O’Neal had intimated weeks ago that Buss had chosen Bryant over the good of the team, hoping to lure him away from other free-agent offers. It was a blow to O’Neal, who had carried the franchise in Bryant’s early years and then feuded with him thereafter, usually over control of the team’s offense and locker room.

[Lakers Guard Derek] Fisher said at a summer league game in Long Beach. “The way everything went down, it seemed inevitable.

“I don’t think that when the season was over Shaq was really that adamant about leaving. He obviously was disappointed, like all of us were. But that changed when the line was clearly drawn that it wasn’t his team and it was all about Kobe and that he’ll have to take a back seat. I think at that point, Shaq washed his hands of the Lakers."

Bryant will go on trial on Aug. 27 for felony sexual assault in Eagle, Colo. If convicted, he could face life in prison.

Speculation vs Shaq's words himself:

"The reason why I got traded; it wasn’t about me and Kobe’s beef. It was that they wanted me to take less money. I’m not doing that," Shaq said in an interview. "I got money; I had money. I just should’ve been like, ‘Alright, I raised you enough. It’s your team now. I know what I’m going to do. I’m still going to do my 28 and 10.’ But I was like, ‘Nah, I want $150 [million].’"

"If I had to do it all again, I probably would have had a meeting with the family. ‘What y’all want to do? You want me to take less money, take a lesser role, stay here, or do you still want me to be Shaq?’” O’Neal said. "See, it’s that ego. The ego still got me what I wanted. I still went to Miami, Pat took care of me, and I still won one. But I would have liked to stay [in L.A.] the rest of my career."

According to the guys in this thread nothing Shaq or any player says matters.

[blessofcurse]

The denial is strong in this thread.

Again, KOBE is one of the greatest offensive players of the past 40 years. But a big chunk of that decade saw Kobe as a hated man putting up empty stats on a middling team.

The kid went years without winning a single playoff series IN HIS PRIME and then demanded a trade to the Bulls. And, IIRC, the Bulls turned down the offer. The dude was considered toxic during this period. His own coach (the greatest of All Time) told the front office he couldn't work with the dude and then wrote a book where he trashed the kid.

It was legit bad...for those old enough to actually watch it play out.

It's funny to think that Kobe was criticized for not accomplishing much in that Lakers rebuilding mode. While player like KG still loved by this forum even though he always lost in payoffs before he went to the Celtics.

Even his trade demand that did not go through was also crticisim. Yes he demanded a trade but he still gave everything next season and it paid off.
Haters these days. Smh

[Jamaaliver]

Speculation vs Shaq's words himself:

"The reason why I got traded; it wasn’t about me and Kobe’s beef. It was that they wanted me to take less money. I’m not doing that," Shaq said in an interview. "I got money; I had money. I just should’ve been like, ‘Alright, I raised you enough. It’s your team now. I know what I’m going to do. I’m still going to do my 28 and 10.’ But I was like, ‘Nah, I want $150 [million].’"

"If I had to do it all again, I probably would have had a meeting with the family. ‘What y’all want to do? You want me to take less money, take a lesser role, stay here, or do you still want me to be Shaq?’” O’Neal said. "See, it’s that ego. The ego still got me what I wanted. I still went to Miami, Pat took care of me, and I still won one. But I would have liked to stay [in L.A.] the rest of my career."

According to the guys in this thread nothing Shaq or any player says matters.

15+ years later...or worse, after KB24's death, the narrative changed.

Greatly.

Kobe, in 2004, threatened to leave the Lakers for the Clippers or The Bulls.

Read on Twitter

Spoiler:

“I remember when he was going to leave the Lakers. I never really mentioned this to anyone. He was going to come and sign with the Clippers, who I am now involved with as a consultant. And I told him ‘Kobe, under no circumstances can you do this.’ He was mad at everyone at the Lakers, the owner, everyone else. I said ‘Kobe, you can’t go play with the Clippers. You can’t play for that owner. Period.’

Lakers Nation

As a free agent in the summer of 2004, however, Bryant’s relationship with the Lakers was being tested. The Lakers dynasty had reached its end. Phil Jackson was out as head coach. Bryant’s feud with Shaquille O’Neal had reached a breaking point. And Bryant’s reputation had taken a hit after he was arrested and charged with felony sexual assault in 2003.

How close were the Bulls to luring Bryant to Chicago?

“We were looking at houses, we were looking at schools,” Bryant told the Tribune in December 2004. “We already were talking about a sign-and-trade.” He reiterated those words to O’Neal years later in an interview for NBA on TNT.

Chicago Tribune

After that, Lakers bent over backwards to give Kobe what he wanted.

• They let Phil Jackson go.
• Replaced him with Rudy Tomjanovich.
• They declined to give Shaq and an extension.
• Traded O'Neal to Miami for role players.
• And then handed over keys to the franchise to Kobe.

And the Lakers immediately fell from contender to mediocre -- winning 0 playoff series in the following 3 years.

Watching this stuff play out in real time was addictive TV. None of this is a secret.