Top 5 Point guard of all time

[penbeast0]

I have Magic, West, Oscar, and Curry as my top 4 in some order. The next group for me is Paul, Stockton, Nash, and Frazier with Kidd, Payton, etc. being another level down.

My go to is John Stockton for career value because of his ironman ability and his strong defense. Paul has the great turnover ratio and is probably the strongest individual scorer of the group in his best years but his injuries add up. Frazier has the greatest playoffs and the greatest defense but a very short career and the offense he worked in had him working far less as the creator for his teammates than the other 3. Nash falls just short of Stockton because the slight extra scoring and improvising is not as valuable to me as Stockton's better defense and greater ability to get the ball to the right man in the system every time.

Magic
Curry
West
Oscar
------- (gap)
Stockton
Paul
Frazier
Nash
------- (gap)
Payton
Kidd
etc. (haven't looked closely at what order after Nash yet)

[Owly]

Would tend to go with the flow and list West as 2 (I think just calling him a guard would be most accurate, my guess is functioning slightly more 1 than 2 but that distinction wasn't made the same way at that time and part of it is he's just the "lead" guard/better guard so he gets the ball more).

I'd then go with the remainder of your 6 as my five. Maybe not the same order. Not the same conception of a gap within the group.

There might be a gap after it for me (Frazier not sure on longevity of quality, even before the numbers go off, some reporting suggests defensive and intangible rep is falling - Nash similarly a longevity issue [though otoh lesser] ... if you're a real believer in the Dallas spell and/or late-era Phoenix maybe less so).

This all very otoh. Criteria can reasonably differ.

[SpreeS]

Maybe its time to count Harden as PG

[SK21209]

I never really know what to do with West either, I guess I'll leave him as a SG too.

Magic
Curry

Oscar
Stockton
CP3

[Narigo]

Magic
Oscar
West
Curry
Paul

[rk2023]

Depends how you regard West here.

Tier 1: Magic Curry
Tier 2: (West) Oscar
Tier 3a: C. Paul
Tier 3b: Nash

^^ Would be my top 6 with him included. Steph and West strike me as combo guards, however. Clearly the two best in that business - with Harden being a distant third.

If we're looking at single season PG peaks (I'm going off BBR listings), my top 5 would be:
- 87/90 Magic
-16/17 Curry
- 65 West
- 20 LBJ
- 64 Oscar

[Buckets22]

1. Magic
2. Curry
3. Big O
4. Frazier
5. Zeke

West is a SG.

[Doctor MJ]

Just going by my pre-Top 100 rough list, and including guys listed along with those typically called point guards, here's a list 10 deep:

1. Magic
2. Curry
3. West
4. Oscar
5. Nash
6. Paul
7. Frazier
8. Stockton
9. Kidd
10. Isiah

As always, longevity is a tricky thing and I can understand folks who have Stockton considerably higher because of it.

Don't really see Stockton being better at getting the ball to the right man every time than Nash though. It's possible it might be literally true by percentages during their career, but I think a) Nash was making tougher reads and passes and b) Nash was hitting higher value targets. There's always the question of what Stockton could have done if he'd had the freedom Nash had, but just based on what was done, I think Nash was a deserving league MVP, and Stockton was never close.

[rk2023]

Just going by my pre-Top 100 rough list, and including guys listed along with those typically called point guards, here's a list 10 deep:

1. Magic
2. Curry
3. West
4. Oscar
5. Nash
6. Paul
7. Frazier
8. Stockton
9. Kidd
10. Isiah

As always, longevity is a tricky thing and I can understand folks who have Stockton considerably higher because of it.

Don't really see Stockton being better at getting the ball to the right man every time than Nash though. It's possible it might be literally true by percentages during their career, but I think a) Nash was making tougher reads and passes and b) Nash was hitting higher value targets. There's always the question of what Stockton could have done if he'd had the freedom Nash had, but just based on what was done, I think Nash was a deserving league MVP, and Stockton was never close.

Stockton strikes me as a Kirk Cousins compared to Nash's Pat Mahomes if that makes sense. I don't toss out monikers like 'paper tiger' as they aren't productive, but I don't think this iis too inaccurate ITO Stockton's box score as a passer.

[penbeast0]

I would say he is Tom Brady compared to Nash's Brett Favre if we are going quarterback comps.

[kcktiny]

Career rates:

Curry 24.6 pts/g, 6.5 ast/g
Harden 24.7 pts/g, 7.0 ast/g

[iggymcfrack]

1. Curry
2. Paul
3. Magic
4. Stockton
5. Oscar

Feel very good about that group. West, while close in an overall sense, is still clearly behind all those guys IMO. Harden, even if I classified him as a point guard (and I don't) would still be behind those 5 plus West and Nash at minimum.

[iggymcfrack]

Maybe its time to count Harden as PG

According to B-Ref, he has 62% of his career minutes at SG, 28% at PG, and 11% at SF. His first season really playing the point was 2007, but then they immediately brought in Chris Paul and his primary position switched back to SG. When they traded Paul, they traded him for another guy who has to play PG in Westbrook. Even in Brooklyn, he played next to a PG in Kyrie. The only seasons he actually played >60% of his minutes at PG are 2017 and 2023.

[rk2023]

1. Curry
2. Paul
3. Magic
4. Stockton
5. Oscar

Feel very good about that group. West, while close in an overall sense, is still clearly behind all those guys IMO. Harden, even if I classified him as a point guard (and I don't) would still be behind those 5 plus West and Nash at minimum.

How are CP3 and Stockton > Oscar and West? Seems like a take that’s rooted in the misapplication of advanced stats. I’ll give them longevity (though curving for era, Idek how much of an advantage there is), but in a prime sense - I fail to see it.

[rk2023]

Let alone Paul > Magic..

[oaktownwarriors87]

Tier 1
Magic/Curry

Tier 2
Oscar/Stockton/Payton/Kidd/Isiah/Paul/Cousy

Tier 3
Nash/Parker/Hardaway/Westbrook/Jackson

[oaktownwarriors87]

I would say he is Tom Brady compared to Nash's Brett Favre if we are going quarterback comps.

John (Stockton) Elway vs Steve (Nash) McNair

[rk2023]

The more I think about it, the more I like the Stock and Kirk comparison. Both grade out as elite in face value accuracy (eg. Completion % and AST:TOV), but more granular metrics (eg. QBR and Passer Rating / Box Creation) don’t regard them upper-echelon like when compared to names like Nash/Magic/Manning/Brady/Mahomes. A friend told me that Stockton, Favre, and Kirk are very similar personas off the court/field as well, wondering what they meant by that one too.

[iggymcfrack]

1. Curry
2. Paul
3. Magic
4. Stockton
5. Oscar

Feel very good about that group. West, while close in an overall sense, is still clearly behind all those guys IMO. Harden, even if I classified him as a point guard (and I don't) would still be behind those 5 plus West and Nash at minimum.

How are CP3 and Stockton > Oscar and West? Seems like a take that’s rooted in the misapplication of advanced stats. I’ll give them longevity (though curving for era, Idek how much of an advantage there is), but in a prime sense - I fail to see it.

Stockton and Paul are both MUCH better passer/playmakers than Oscar and West and they're also MUCH better defenders than Oscar at least while being slightly better defenders than West too. Oscar had maybe the best passing season of the '60s in 1965 with an AST% of 37.8. Stockton beat that every year of his career. Paul beat it every year except for 2020 in OKC when he was focused on mentoring the young guys. Here's a quote from Backpicks describing Oscar's passing (which was better than West's):

"Unlike the modern ball-dominant quarterbacks, Oscar wasn’t spearheading attacks by relentlessly creating opportunities for teammates — such plays weren’t common for much of the 1960s. Oscar led the league in assists in most years, but even then assist rates were far below what they would become after the merger in 1977. Oscar’s assists per 75 possessions were regularly between 5.9 and 7.5. For comparison, John Stockton has the highest rate ever at 13.6, while Magic and Steve Nash peaked around 12. But the best mark before the merger was Kevin Porter’s 8.5.

Thus, Oscar wasn’t making life way easier for his teammates the way creators like Nash and LeBron did. Instead, he was a great facilitator. His more conservative passes put players in the right position to score. He could find easy offense in transition and his great feel for mismatches helped team efficiency too. But an enormous chunk of his global impact came from his own isolation scoring, which was orders better than anyone that decade not named Jerry West."

So basically, Oscar and West were closer to what we'd think of as almost a combo guard today, passing more like Curry than an elite facilitator, but without Curry's incredible gravity due to his constant off-ball movement. Also, while you're curving down longevity (where Stockton and Paul have large edges), don't forget to also curve up for the talent pool of the league growing much larger and it being much harder to dominate today than it was then due to tougher competition.

[Johnny Tomala]

Magic
Oscar
West
Curry
Stockton