Is Kobe given the most flack of any star? Highlighting inconsistent arguments against him.

[dj20001]

I think in 2000 he has no chance. 2001 he is better in the WCF but the first 2 rounds i think edge goes to Shaq. 2002 Shaq was better in first round and the WCF, Kobe better against the Spurs. 2004 edge to Kobe. But in all those seasons, especially the 3 peat, Shaq was the bigger focus of the defense. I think Kobe gets 1, lucky to get 2, conference MVPs those 4 years

w/o any context as to what "better" means I'm going to stick with my original point

2000 should be pretty easy. 2002 WCF for example, Shaq scored more, significantly more efficiently while commanding more defensive attention and dominating the boards, had a better plus/minus in 6 of the 7 games etc...

Not like you provided much context just blanket saying Kobe would win it every year.

Why wouldn’t Shaq dominate the boards (in comparison to a guard) and why wouldn’t he have a better +/- (in comparison to a guard)
Why wouldn’t Shaq be more efficient if 99% of his shots are coming from within 5ft of the basket (in comparison to a guard)

You’ve still said nothing

[dj20001]

The denial is strong in this thread.

Again, KOBE is one of the greatest offensive players of the past 40 years. But a big chunk of that decade saw Kobe as a hated man putting up empty stats on a middling team.

The kid went years without winning a single playoff series IN HIS PRIME and then demanded a trade to the Bulls. And, IIRC, the Bulls turned down the offer. The dude was considered toxic during this period. His own coach (the greatest of All Time) told the front office he couldn't work with the dude and then wrote a book where he trashed the kid.

It was legit bad...for those old enough to actually watch it play out.

Which makes it even wilder that Kobe leads the decade in chips by a decent margin outside of Shaq. 7/10 Finals he played in and that includes the years of nothing smack dab in the middle.

How many should Kobe have won, 8?

[Joker]

Kobe is given flack in the context of his standing as one of the greatest ever. If you're getting mentioned alongside Jordan, KAJ, Magic, Bird, Lebron, etc., and you've been known to shoot your team out of games, the criticism will be sharp. Because the IQ/feel for the game amongst those players is so impeccable --- you can't be a chucker.

[nikster]

w/o any context as to what "better" means I'm going to stick with my original point

2000 should be pretty easy. 2002 WCF for example, Shaq scored more, significantly more efficiently while commanding more defensive attention and dominating the boards, had a better plus/minus in 6 of the 7 games etc...

Not like you provided much context just blanket saying Kobe would win it every year.

Why wouldn’t Shaq dominate the boards (in comparison to a guard) and why wouldn’t he have a better +/- (in comparison to a guard)
Why wouldn’t Shaq be more efficient if 99% of his shots are coming from within 5ft of the basket (in comparison to a guard)

You’ve still said nothing

These are some strange arguments...why would plus minus be higher among bigs? What have you said in Kobes defense?

[dj20001]

Kobe is given flack in the context of his standing as one of the greatest ever. If you're getting mentioned alongside Jordan, KAJ, Magic, Bird, Lebron, etc., and you've been known to shoot your team out of games, the criticism will be sharp. Because the IQ/feel for the game amongst those players is so impeccable --- you can't be a chucker.

Outside of the 2004 series, which games did Kobe honestly shoot his team out of? Magic had his moments, LBJ is the biggest loser out of everyone you listed Finals record wise and KAJ was lacking multiple titles until Magic came along, putting up great stats on bad teams. This context seems to be amiss in every Kobe thread I come across on here.

The narrative is buzz worthy, but seems to be lacking in terms of actual substance. The criticism is totally fine, but the consistency is lacking. Mention Kobe’s ring count amongst those other players for example and there’s a clear difference in how teammates and opponents are characterized.

[dj20001]

2000 should be pretty easy. 2002 WCF for example, Shaq scored more, significantly more efficiently while commanding more defensive attention and dominating the boards, had a better plus/minus in 6 of the 7 games etc...

Not like you provided much context just blanket saying Kobe would win it every year.

Why wouldn’t Shaq dominate the boards (in comparison to a guard) and why wouldn’t he have a better +/- (in comparison to a guard)
Why wouldn’t Shaq be more efficient if 99% of his shots are coming from within 5ft of the basket (in comparison to a guard)

You’ve still said nothing

These are some strange arguments...why would plus minus be higher among bigs? What have you said in Kobes defense?

In his defense of what? When the Lakers needed a play made or a bucket in those western conference playoff series they went to Kobe
You’re giving a big credit for things that a guard should not and would not have higher counting stats in.
Why not choose free throw percentage as a metric, or assists or steals?

Just say you didn’t actually watch the games.

[flytimes11]

Kobe is given flack in the context of his standing as one of the greatest ever. If you're getting mentioned alongside Jordan, KAJ, Magic, Bird, Lebron, etc., and you've been known to shoot your team out of games, the criticism will be sharp. Because the IQ/feel for the game amongst those players is so impeccable --- you can't be a chucker.

Outside of the 2004 series, which games did Kobe honestly shoot his team out of? Magic had his moments, LBJ is the biggest loser out of everyone you listed Finals record wise and KAJ was lacking multiple titles until Magic came along, putting up great stats on bad teams. This context seems to be amiss in every Kobe thread I come across on here.

The narrative is buzz worthy, but seems to be lacking in terms of actual substance. The criticism is totally fine, but the consistency is lacking when it comes to Kobe. Mention Kobe’s ring count amongst those other players for example and there’s a clear difference in how teammates and opponents are characterized.

Pretty much. Magic never won without Kareem. Gasol was a fringe all star before he got to LA. All the narratives surrounding Kobe are exaggerated.

[Onlytimewilltel]

Y’all are insufferable same damn argument every page. No one will change their mind, surprised this is still going

[dj20001]

Kobe is given flack in the context of his standing as one of the greatest ever. If you're getting mentioned alongside Jordan, KAJ, Magic, Bird, Lebron, etc., and you've been known to shoot your team out of games, the criticism will be sharp. Because the IQ/feel for the game amongst those players is so impeccable --- you can't be a chucker.

Outside of the 2004 series, which games did Kobe honestly shoot his team out of? Magic had his moments, LBJ is the biggest loser out of everyone you listed Finals record wise and KAJ was lacking multiple titles until Magic came along, putting up great stats on bad teams. This context seems to be amiss in every Kobe thread I come across on here.

The narrative is buzz worthy, but seems to be lacking in terms of actual substance. The criticism is totally fine, but the consistency is lacking when it comes to Kobe. Mention Kobe’s ring count amongst those other players for example and there’s a clear difference in how teammates and opponents are characterized.

Pretty much. Magic never won without Kareem. Gasol was a fringe all star before he got to LA. All the narratives surrounding Kobe are exaggerated.

Shaq won his only MVP with Kobe as the primary playmaker too. Even though he played multiple seasons with Penny, who came into the league openly glazing Shaq and talking about how much he would be passing him the rock.

Make it make sense

[dj20001]

Y’all are insufferable same damn argument every page. No one will change their mind, surprised this is still going

Kobe was coming on at 10:30pm EST most nights. There are plenty of open, non Kobe fans in this thread. You think they actually stayed up late to watch the games?

[ComeFlyWithMe]

Y’all are insufferable same damn argument every page. No one will change their mind, surprised this is still going

Kobe was coming on at 10:30pm EST most nights. There are plenty of open, non Kobe fans in this thread. You think they actually stayed up late to watch the games?

Exactly. Most people saw ESPN highlights of him making tough shots. They didn't see all the times he unsuccessfully played heroball and chucked his team out of games.

[canada_dry]

I think kobe gets passes other players dont get and his resume is "beefed up" with more undeserved all star selections and all nba selections than anyone i can think of.

I dont think he gets the above mentioned passes in real gm though, they find a way to underrate him here somehow.

I got kobe in my top 10 though. Back end. Not top 3 or top 5, like a lot of stans do using flawed logic. Not outside the top 10 and in some cases top 15 like a lot of people in real gm do. I think its a fair ranking.

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

[stormi]

Opposite. His all time rep shot up drastically post-mortem.

[stormi]

This guy is better than Lebron because he hogs shots and holds up five ring fingers to cameras... three of which he Robin'd while conceding three FMVPs in a row to a better player than he was.

[Jamaaliver]

Which makes it even wilder that Kobe leads the decade in chips by a decent margin outside of Shaq. 7/10 Finals he played in and that includes the years of nothing smack dab in the middle.

Eh....

In the 12 years after Jordan retired in 1998,

Phil Jackson won 5 rings with the Lakers.
Gregg Poppovich won 4 rings with the Spurs.

Both are impressive feats.

But in 2004, LA chose Kobe over Phil Jackson...and the Lakers immediately became mediocre. That says a lot.

TL:DR:

Read on Twitter

[Primedeion]

Which makes it even wilder that Kobe leads the decade in chips by a decent margin outside of Shaq. 7/10 Finals he played in and that includes the years of nothing smack dab in the middle.

Eh....

In the 12 years after Jordan retired in 1998,

Phil Jackson won 5 rings with the Lakers.
Gregg Poppovich won 4 rings with the Spurs.

Both are impressive feats.

But in 2004, LA chose Kobe over Phil Jackson...and the Lakers immediately became mediocre. That says a lot.

It only says "a lot" if you want to be dumb and ignore any and all context.

[Primedeion]

Outside of the 2004 series, which games did Kobe honestly shoot his team out of? Magic had his moments, LBJ is the biggest loser out of everyone you listed Finals record wise and KAJ was lacking multiple titles until Magic came along, putting up great stats on bad teams. This context seems to be amiss in every Kobe thread I come across on here.

The narrative is buzz worthy, but seems to be lacking in terms of actual substance. The criticism is totally fine, but the consistency is lacking when it comes to Kobe. Mention Kobe’s ring count amongst those other players for example and there’s a clear difference in how teammates and opponents are characterized.

Pretty much. Magic never won without Kareem. Gasol was a fringe all star before he got to LA. All the narratives surrounding Kobe are exaggerated.

Shaq won his only MVP with Kobe as the primary playmaker too. Even though he played multiple seasons with Penny, who came into the league openly glazing Shaq and talking about how much he would be passing him the rock.

Make it make sense

You can't make it make sense. Kobe haters have been embarrassing themselves for about two decades lol.

[Jamaaliver]

I don't hate Kobe. At all. I'm simply old enough to have seen the entire Kobe-Lakers saga play out in real time.



Challenge: Show me another GOAT contender who failed to get out of the 1st round of the playoffs...in their prime...for 3 straight years...

It doesn't happen.

[nikster]

Outside of the 2004 series, which games did Kobe honestly shoot his team out of? Magic had his moments, LBJ is the biggest loser out of everyone you listed Finals record wise and KAJ was lacking multiple titles until Magic came along, putting up great stats on bad teams. This context seems to be amiss in every Kobe thread I come across on here.

The narrative is buzz worthy, but seems to be lacking in terms of actual substance. The criticism is totally fine, but the consistency is lacking when it comes to Kobe. Mention Kobe’s ring count amongst those other players for example and there’s a clear difference in how teammates and opponents are characterized.

Pretty much. Magic never won without Kareem. Gasol was a fringe all star before he got to LA. All the narratives surrounding Kobe are exaggerated.

Shaq won his only MVP with Kobe as the primary playmaker too. Even though he played multiple seasons with Penny, who came into the league openly glazing Shaq and talking about how much he would be passing him the rock.

Make it make sense

Wow Shaq didn't win an MVP with Penny before the age of 23, clearly that's proof of Kobes superior playmaking

[Primedeion]

I don't hate Kobe. At all. I'm simply old enough to have seen the entire Kobe-Lakers saga play out in real time.



Challenge: Show me another GOAT contender who failed to get out of the 1st round of the playoffs...in their prime...for 3 straight years...

It doesn't happen.

You mean like Kareem missing the postseason multiple times in his prime? And the overwhelming consensus is that he's not in the debate for GOAT. You're whining about nothing.