Gold Medalist Questions the NBA Champs Being Deemed "World" Champs

[Nuntius]

Should the title of world champion be left to the country that wins FIBA tournaments and the Olympics?

I mean, the team that wins the World Cup is quite literally the World Champion. The team that wins the Olympics is the Olympics Champion and can also call themselves a World Champion since the Olympics are a world tournament.

In both cases, though, we're talking about national teams. Both of those tournaments are national teams only. There isn't a similar competition for professional basketball clubs.

[NoDopeOnSundays]

I think it is possible that a NBA champion team lose a 7-game series to a Euroleague champion under FIBA rules.

But absolutely not possible under NBA rules.

I don't think they'd lose a series under Fiba rules, especially not when the really good defensive players realize they can be more physical. The rules are a two way street and eventually they'd adjust.

[cam24thomas]

I think it is possible that a NBA champion team lose a 7-game series to a Euroleague champion under FIBA rules.

But absolutely not possible under NBA rules.

I agree, I think a Euroleague champion could literally sweep an NBA Champion, such is the physicality they play with.
As for NBA rules, I'm not sure who'd win, because Euroleague has really good shooters, so they may do well with NBA rules too.

[LuDux1]

Should the title of world champion be left to the country that wins FIBA tournaments and the Olympics?

I mean, the team that wins the World Cup is quite literally the World Champion. The team that wins the Olympics is the Olympics Champion and can also call themselves a World Champion since the Olympics are a world tournament.

In both cases, though, we're talking about national teams. Both of those tournaments are national teams only. There isn't a similar competition for professional basketball clubs.

Technically there is
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_FIBA_Intercontinental_Cup_(Tenerife)

[Arco Thunder]

It is called football.

Soccer is a name used by Americans (initially actually created by the Brits to differentiate between Rugby and Football) to differentiate it from their own, American football. They had to call it American Football, because Football was already taken.

Some interesting background history...

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/11/25/world-cup-2022-why-americans-call-football-soccer

The British called it Soccer interchangeably with Football until very recently (2000's) They even had a TV show called Soccer today for a long time. That's where we got the name and for some reason this is used as an example of arrogant Americans trying to either steal the name Football for our sport or forcibly change the name to Soccer Australians also call it soccer but for some reason you never hear complaints about that....I wonder why.

Read the article, the British actually have stopped using the word soccer for a while. Just because one show uses it, doesn't mean an entire nation calls it soccer. That's like saying the US supports everything Fox News says.

What does it matter that they stopped using it? Should we stop using it? Did I say the entire nation called it soccer? They used both names for a very long time is the point.

[Nuntius]

I think it is possible that a NBA champion team lose a 7-game series to a Euroleague champion under FIBA rules.

But absolutely not possible under NBA rules.

I don't believe that an NBA champion would lose a 7-game series. If it's single elimination then, sure, absolutely but over a 7-game series, an NBA champion would prevail.

But if a top EuroLeague team (like Real Madrid or Barcelona) was about to face a .500 team in a 7-game series then, sure, I'd give the advantage to Real or Barca under FIBA rules. And even under NBA rules, I'd give them a puncher's chance.

I do believe that the best EuroLeague teams with the highest budgets (like Real and Barcelona) would be competitive in the NBA. I think that they'd have a legit shot at making the playoffs. After all, their starting units are basically almost all ex-NBAers and they often have good NBA prospects in their developmental teams.

That said, I digress. This topic I went into isn't what the OP is talking about.

[Sad_Joker]

Ok so let's go by the American's logic. If they're the "World Champions" in the NBA, then what do you call them when they win in International play? Still "World Champions". It doesn't matter whether the NBA has the best talent or not, it is still just national play (outside of 1 team in Canada). It's very narcisstic for the Americans to call themselves World Champions.

When Argentina won and San Antonio Spurs won, Manu Genobli asked the NBA to name them The National Champions.

[Nuntius]

Should the title of world champion be left to the country that wins FIBA tournaments and the Olympics?

I mean, the team that wins the World Cup is quite literally the World Champion. The team that wins the Olympics is the Olympics Champion and can also call themselves a World Champion since the Olympics are a world tournament.

In both cases, though, we're talking about national teams. Both of those tournaments are national teams only. There isn't a similar competition for professional basketball clubs.

Technically there is
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_FIBA_Intercontinental_Cup_(Tenerife)

Huh, I had no idea. But, as you said, technically is the key point here. Teams from all continents are indeed represented so it is a true world championship but due to the animosity between FIBA and the NBA/EuroLeague, teams from those competitions aren't included. Therefore, the championship doesn't have a lot of prestige so people don't even know that it exists.

Thanks for the info, though. It's always good to learn new things

[dhsilv2]

Basically, a tournament like the one happening this very moment (the FIBA World Cup) but with clubs instead of national teams.

Clubs? Why wouldn't you have actual professional teams? But we already do just that. That's what the NBA is. It's an international professional league of the best players in the world.

By clubs, I don't mean country clubs. I mean actual professional teams. But that's my bad for using a term that may not be popular in the States.

As for the second part. The NBA only has teams from 2 countries. USA and Canada. It is indeed technically an international professional league but it only represents a single continent. Therefore, it cannot be consider a world championship if we wanna be technical about it. At most, it's a continental one (and it isn't truly a continental one since Mexico isn't represented but that's another discussion).

If we want to be accurate about it, for something to be considered a world championship, all continents need to be represented (well, all continents that contain actual nation-states, no one's talking about Antartica). Association football used to have a cup that was played between the winner of the Champions League (UEFA) and the winner of the Copa Libertadores (CONMEBOL). So, basically the winners of the most prestigious intercontinental competitions in Europe and South America, the two strongest regions. But since not every continent was represented, it wasn't a true world championship. So, it got replaced.

Now, there's the FIFA Club World Cup (hence why I used the term club before, being raised in a country that loves association football my mind defaults to its terms). The FIFA Club World Cup is a cup that is contested by the winners of the continental competitions (AFC Champions League, CAF Champions League, CONCACAF Champions Cup, CONMEBOL Libertadores, OFC Champions League and UEFA Champions League) along with the national championship of the country that is hosting the competition. Therefore, every continent is represented and the winner of the cup can call themselves a true world champion.

Are all the best teams in the world present in the FIFA Club World Cup? No, not really. It is entirely possible that a number of teams in the stronger regions (UEFA and CONMEBOL) are much stronger than the winner of the OFC Champions League (just to use as an example). But that's how world championships work across all sports. It is about every continent being represented (an idea pioneered by the Olympics). That's what makes it a world championship.

Would I want to see a similar competition in basketball? Sure, it would be fun. The more basketball, the better. Is it a problem that such a competition doesn't exist? Nah. It's a pretty minor thing overall. Besides, I don't think that basketball is not yet global enough to have this kind of competition.

Where games are played doesn't change if it's ultimately international or not. That's mostly just logistics. The franchise model the NBA uses, not clubs, just works better for making sure it remains the top league. You need a closed model to maximize talent into a league. Otherwise players would not feel obligated to play in the NBA. It would be nice if time zones and travel allowed the league to be more global in locations played, but you just can't do that yet. When we get teleports I suppose things will change, until then the best model for a top sports league is a closed model within a limited number of time zones, teams, but to pull the talent from the entire world like the NBA does.

I mean look, I'm not a soccer fan, but I would want the same model there. And I'd assume the top league should be in Europe with some Americans, a lot of latin Americans, some Asians, Africans, and whoever else produces top talent to all be in that league. I wouldn't expect the MLS champion in the US to have a shot against the best team in such a scenario nor would I want to get the chance to compete.

[Nuntius]

I will also say this:

Some people in this thread have tried to make it into an Americans vs non-Americans discussion. But it isn't. The source of the comments, the athlete making those comments in the linked video, isn't a non-American. He's an American. And he didn't make that comment from the perspective of someone who wanted to **** on the US so there's no need to be defensive.

We need to remind ourselves of the context here. Noah Lyles has won 6 gold medals in World Championships the past four years. He is literally a 6-times World Champion. In the World Champions that were taking place this month in Hungary, he swept every gold medal that he participated in. 100 meters, 200 meters and the 4x100 relay. That's the sprint treble and it's relatively rare achievement (Bolt was the last one to do it in 2015).

So, yeah, when a literal World Champion coming off a rare achievement is asked about whether NBA Champions should be deemed World Champions, how exactly do you expect him to answer? That is the context of his comment and I do believe that there's more value in talking about that context instead of this childish Americans vs non-Americans discussion we've been having.

[Nuntius]

Clubs? Why wouldn't you have actual professional teams? But we already do just that. That's what the NBA is. It's an international professional league of the best players in the world.

By clubs, I don't mean country clubs. I mean actual professional teams. But that's my bad for using a term that may not be popular in the States.

As for the second part. The NBA only has teams from 2 countries. USA and Canada. It is indeed technically an international professional league but it only represents a single continent. Therefore, it cannot be consider a world championship if we wanna be technical about it. At most, it's a continental one (and it isn't truly a continental one since Mexico isn't represented but that's another discussion).

If we want to be accurate about it, for something to be considered a world championship, all continents need to be represented (well, all continents that contain actual nation-states, no one's talking about Antartica). Association football used to have a cup that was played between the winner of the Champions League (UEFA) and the winner of the Copa Libertadores (CONMEBOL). So, basically the winners of the most prestigious intercontinental competitions in Europe and South America, the two strongest regions. But since not every continent was represented, it wasn't a true world championship. So, it got replaced.

Now, there's the FIFA Club World Cup (hence why I used the term club before, being raised in a country that loves association football my mind defaults to its terms). The FIFA Club World Cup is a cup that is contested by the winners of the continental competitions (AFC Champions League, CAF Champions League, CONCACAF Champions Cup, CONMEBOL Libertadores, OFC Champions League and UEFA Champions League) along with the national championship of the country that is hosting the competition. Therefore, every continent is represented and the winner of the cup can call themselves a true world champion.

Are all the best teams in the world present in the FIFA Club World Cup? No, not really. It is entirely possible that a number of teams in the stronger regions (UEFA and CONMEBOL) are much stronger than the winner of the OFC Champions League (just to use as an example). But that's how world championships work across all sports. It is about every continent being represented (an idea pioneered by the Olympics). That's what makes it a world championship.

Would I want to see a similar competition in basketball? Sure, it would be fun. The more basketball, the better. Is it a problem that such a competition doesn't exist? Nah. It's a pretty minor thing overall. Besides, I don't think that basketball is not yet global enough to have this kind of competition.

Where games are played doesn't change if it's ultimately international or not. That's mostly just logistics. The franchise model the NBA uses, not clubs, just works better for making sure it remains the top league. You need a closed model to maximize talent into a league. Otherwise players would not feel obligated to play in the NBA. It would be nice if time zones and travel allowed the league to be more global in locations played, but you just can't do that yet. When we get teleports I suppose things will change, until then the best model for a top sports league is a closed model within a limited number of time zones, teams, but to pull the talent from the entire world like the NBA does.

I mean look, I'm not a soccer fan, but I would want the same model there. And I'd assume the top league should be in Europe with some Americans, a lot of latin Americans, some Asians, Africans, and whoever else produces top talent to all be in that league. I wouldn't expect the MLS champion in the US to have a shot against the best team in such a scenario nor would I want to get the chance to compete.

I feel like we're talking about two wildly different things here. You're talking about the best model for a top sports league. I'm talking about what makes a championship (or any other similar competition) a world championship as opposed to just a national or continental championship.

The two aren't the same. At no point have I ever implied that a world championship is or even should be the best championship. The two are just different concepts.

[dhsilv2]

Ok so let's go by the American's logic. If they're the "World Champions" in the NBA, then what do you call them when they win in International play? Still "World Champions". It doesn't matter whether the NBA has the best talent or not, it is still just national play (outside of 1 team in Canada). It's very narcisstic for the Americans to call themselves World Champions.

When Argentina won and San Antonio Spurs won, Manu Genobli asked the NBA to name them The National Champions.

Did Manu become an American or Parker? Cause otherwise the Spurs very much weren't the national champs. Meanwhile wasn't everyone on the Argentina team from Argentina? How is that a world team?

[RSP83]

I would love to see EuroLeague gets extended to include NBA Final Four teams. Call it NBA x Euro Champions League or something. Euro League teams are too underrated by NBA fans.

[eyeatoma]

Ok so let's go by the American's logic. If they're the "World Champions" in the NBA, then what do you call them when they win in International play? Still "World Champions". It doesn't matter whether the NBA has the best talent or not, it is still just national play (outside of 1 team in Canada). It's very narcisstic for the Americans to call themselves World Champions.

When Argentina won and San Antonio Spurs won, Manu Genobli asked the NBA to name them The National Champions.

Did Manu become an American or Parker? Cause otherwise the Spurs very much weren't the national champs. Meanwhile wasn't everyone on the Argentina team from Argentina? How is that a world team?

Argentina won in a global tournament.

Listen we can't argue that the level of competition in the NBA blows the international competition out of the water. But the fact remains that I'm nearly every competition with the word World used in its been national teams competing. Us national leagues are one of the few that use the world in their championship trophy/award.

The US highly values the Olympic basketball gold medal, because it's a global tournament. The US lost face when they lost the gold, in many ways because it was a world/global tournament.

[dhsilv2]

By clubs, I don't mean country clubs. I mean actual professional teams. But that's my bad for using a term that may not be popular in the States.

As for the second part. The NBA only has teams from 2 countries. USA and Canada. It is indeed technically an international professional league but it only represents a single continent. Therefore, it cannot be consider a world championship if we wanna be technical about it. At most, it's a continental one (and it isn't truly a continental one since Mexico isn't represented but that's another discussion).

If we want to be accurate about it, for something to be considered a world championship, all continents need to be represented (well, all continents that contain actual nation-states, no one's talking about Antartica). Association football used to have a cup that was played between the winner of the Champions League (UEFA) and the winner of the Copa Libertadores (CONMEBOL). So, basically the winners of the most prestigious intercontinental competitions in Europe and South America, the two strongest regions. But since not every continent was represented, it wasn't a true world championship. So, it got replaced.

Now, there's the FIFA Club World Cup (hence why I used the term club before, being raised in a country that loves association football my mind defaults to its terms). The FIFA Club World Cup is a cup that is contested by the winners of the continental competitions (AFC Champions League, CAF Champions League, CONCACAF Champions Cup, CONMEBOL Libertadores, OFC Champions League and UEFA Champions League) along with the national championship of the country that is hosting the competition. Therefore, every continent is represented and the winner of the cup can call themselves a true world champion.

Are all the best teams in the world present in the FIFA Club World Cup? No, not really. It is entirely possible that a number of teams in the stronger regions (UEFA and CONMEBOL) are much stronger than the winner of the OFC Champions League (just to use as an example). But that's how world championships work across all sports. It is about every continent being represented (an idea pioneered by the Olympics). That's what makes it a world championship.

Would I want to see a similar competition in basketball? Sure, it would be fun. The more basketball, the better. Is it a problem that such a competition doesn't exist? Nah. It's a pretty minor thing overall. Besides, I don't think that basketball is not yet global enough to have this kind of competition.

Where games are played doesn't change if it's ultimately international or not. That's mostly just logistics. The franchise model the NBA uses, not clubs, just works better for making sure it remains the top league. You need a closed model to maximize talent into a league. Otherwise players would not feel obligated to play in the NBA. It would be nice if time zones and travel allowed the league to be more global in locations played, but you just can't do that yet. When we get teleports I suppose things will change, until then the best model for a top sports league is a closed model within a limited number of time zones, teams, but to pull the talent from the entire world like the NBA does.

I mean look, I'm not a soccer fan, but I would want the same model there. And I'd assume the top league should be in Europe with some Americans, a lot of latin Americans, some Asians, Africans, and whoever else produces top talent to all be in that league. I wouldn't expect the MLS champion in the US to have a shot against the best team in such a scenario nor would I want to get the chance to compete.

I feel like we're talking about two wildly different things here. You're talking about the best model for a top sports league. I'm talking about what makes a championship (or any other similar competition) a world championship as opposed to just a national or continental championship.

The two aren't the same. At no point have I ever implied that a world championship is or even should be the best championship. The two are just different concepts.

I don't think the things are different. To be the best league, you must be the world's best league and it must be an international league. Meaning the best players from the world are able to as freely as possible compete and the overwhelming majority of the best players are all in that league.

Again, I don't think LOCATION has any role what so ever in this. Location is a function of logistics.

What matters is that the talent is the best that the world has to offer and that teams are made up of players from all over the world with the objective of being the best.

[dhsilv2]

Ok so let's go by the American's logic. If they're the "World Champions" in the NBA, then what do you call them when they win in International play? Still "World Champions". It doesn't matter whether the NBA has the best talent or not, it is still just national play (outside of 1 team in Canada). It's very narcisstic for the Americans to call themselves World Champions.

When Argentina won and San Antonio Spurs won, Manu Genobli asked the NBA to name them The National Champions.

Did Manu become an American or Parker? Cause otherwise the Spurs very much weren't the national champs. Meanwhile wasn't everyone on the Argentina team from Argentina? How is that a world team?

Argentina won in a global tournament.

Listen we can't argue that the level of competition in the NBA blows the international competition out of the water. But the fact remains that I'm nearly every competition with the word World used in its been national teams competing. Us national leagues are one of the few that use the world in their championship trophy/award.

The US highly values the Olympic basketball gold medal, because it's a global tournament. The US lost face when they lost the gold, in many ways because it was a world/global tournament.

And I'm saying they're wrong. It's not a world tournament if each team isn't built from the talent around the WORLD! You can't build a team from just one nation!

And yes, the US national whatever basketball group that I don't give a crap about does seem to care about the olympics. Honestly, I don't think team sports should even been in the olympics but that's another topic. I personally don't care in the slightest.

[Nuntius]

Where games are played doesn't change if it's ultimately international or not. That's mostly just logistics. The franchise model the NBA uses, not clubs, just works better for making sure it remains the top league. You need a closed model to maximize talent into a league. Otherwise players would not feel obligated to play in the NBA. It would be nice if time zones and travel allowed the league to be more global in locations played, but you just can't do that yet. When we get teleports I suppose things will change, until then the best model for a top sports league is a closed model within a limited number of time zones, teams, but to pull the talent from the entire world like the NBA does.

I mean look, I'm not a soccer fan, but I would want the same model there. And I'd assume the top league should be in Europe with some Americans, a lot of latin Americans, some Asians, Africans, and whoever else produces top talent to all be in that league. I wouldn't expect the MLS champion in the US to have a shot against the best team in such a scenario nor would I want to get the chance to compete.

I feel like we're talking about two wildly different things here. You're talking about the best model for a top sports league. I'm talking about what makes a championship (or any other similar competition) a world championship as opposed to just a national or continental championship.

The two aren't the same. At no point have I ever implied that a world championship is or even should be the best championship. The two are just different concepts.

I don't think the things are different. To be the best league, you must be the world's best league and it must be an international league. Meaning the best players from the world are able to as freely as possible compete and the overwhelming majority of the best players are all in that league.

Again, I don't think LOCATION has any role what so ever in this. Location is a function of logistics.

What matters is that the talent is the best that the world has to offer and that teams are made up of players from all over the world with the objective of being the best.

They absolutely are different. You are talking about how to be the best league. I'm not. I'm talking about what makes a competition into a world competition. Being the best league isn't how a competition becomes a world competition. Again, the two concepts (best league vs world competition) are NOT synonymous. They are different concepts.

[NoDopeOnSundays]

I would love to see a NBA backed champions league, that is what the mid-season tournament should evolve into.

[Nuntius]

And I'm saying they're wrong. It's not a world tournament if each team isn't built from the talent around the WORLD! You can't build a team from just one nation!

But that is literally what national teams are for. That is literally their concept. And in team sports, the high profile World Championships tend to be for national teams and not franchises/sports clubs.

[ropjhk]

Should the title of world champion be left to the country that wins FIBA tournaments and the Olympics?

I mean, the team that wins the World Cup is quite literally the World Champion. The team that wins the Olympics is the Olympics Champion and can also call themselves a World Champion since the Olympics are a world tournament.

In both cases, though, we're talking about national teams. Both of those tournaments are national teams only. There isn't a similar competition for professional basketball clubs.

If the NBA playoffs is not equivalent to a World Cup or the Olympics then isn't that a reason to disqualify calling the NBA champions the world champions?