RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #19 (Karl Malone)

[DraymondGold]

Voting Post

Vote: Chris Paul
Alternate: Karl Malone

Nomination: Barkley
Alternate Nomination: Nash

I wasn’t able to vote for Dirk last round, but I would have so I was glad he got in. I see Paul as having the best prime impact of this group, over Durant and Dr J. He clearly has better 'goodness' than Malone. So high-level, it becomes a debate of Malone's longevity (likely underrated in the public, super valuable) vs Paul's actual higher value (when healthy).

Peak: I do give Durant a better peak, which is helped by Durant’s better scalability. I’m unconvinced by the arguments that we should discount Durant’s performance on the Warriors because it was so easy (when e.g. looking at team performance or box performance). Many superstars tried to form superteams to create the most dominant team ever. Only one did, and the vast majority of those superteams didn’t get close. That’s credit to Durant (and the rest of that team). Dr J also has an argument for peak over Paul: his upper bound definitely passes my mean evaluation for Paul, though Dr J has a wide uncertainty range with the ABA context and limits on available film/stats.

But. Paul has the longevity advantage over Durant (more below), and more consistent prime performance over Dr J. While Durant has better scalability, I don’t see Paul as having terrible scalability: he’s a top 10 passer and facilitator, a good shooter, and an all-time guard defender, even if he is a bit ball dominant to maximize next to the best teammates.

Defense: I’m also unconvinced by people who argue guard defense is inconsequential enough to not be meaningful here (we saw a bit of this in the Stockton discussion). Just as a ballpark approximate, let’s look at defensive PIPM. There’s uncertainties in PIPM, there’s uncertainties in dividing offensive and defensive value, but it’s a good ballpark estimate. Paul’s 5-year defensive PIPM peak is ~ +1.75. Compare that to Nash who’s ~ -1.15, and you get a +2.9 swing in favor of Paul. That’s a *massive* swing, ~75% of Nash’s overall 5-year peak value. Not that Paul is competing with Nash here — it’s just to illustrate the point. Compare that to Karl Malone, who has a 5-year (box estimate) defensive PIPM peak of ~ +1.25 (0.5 worse than Paul), or to Durant, who had a 5-year defensive PIPM peak of +0.55 (1.2 worse than Paul). This is not to say that Paul is clearly the better defenders than those two in the abstract or when accounting for per-game value in the playoffs or in terms of goodness. But it does suggest all-time Guard level defense can approach and possibly surpass… much less than all-time level forward defense.

Longevity: Here’s where it gets tricky. Malone has the best longevity by a significant margin. Dr J has better longevity over Paul and Durant as well (though we’ll see how it looks by the end of their career). I absolutely can believe Malone should rise up in a non-peak heavy, career value list. Thinking Basketball has provided highly compelling evidence that longevity is underrated from a career value perspective, and that Malone’s number of MVP level seasons puts him in really rarified company, likely over present company and possibly some of the more recent selections.

For this project, I’ve been slightly more peak/prime-heavy than Thinking Basketball’s more longevity-focused approach. My criteria has usually been to focus on career value, but I’ve also tried to incorporate career goodness. Perhaps I haven’t always been perfectly consistent about how to blend these two goals, particularly in the case when career impact and goodness differ strongly. Who do you take when a player’s impact and goodness diverge slightly? Dirk’s longevity afforded him more career value in my estimation, but Robinson’s goodness surpassed Dirk’s in my estimation. It requires some amount of a judgement call, if I am going to incorporate career goodness into my criteria (either in how much I weigh the two criteria, or how I evaluate each player’s goodness separate from their impact). While Malone’s longevity affords him more career impact, I do see his career goodness as slightly lower. Regardless, I suspect Malone will end up winning this round, and I won’t be unhappy with it. He has GOAT level durability and longevity (relative to his peak height). He clearly has a good case, even if his peak and goodness are lower than the other guys.

Resilience: Paul has a reputation of being a playoff faller, but that’s not unique in this group. I see Paul’s biggest issue as health: 2012 groin injury, 2015 hamstring strain, 2016 broken hand, 2018 hamstring strain, 2021 shoulder and COVID, 2023 groin strain. Is Paul really perceived as such a playoff choker if he doesn’t get these injuries? How much of his decline over a series is just wear and tear accumulating? I don’t see Paul’s play style as the most resilient play style ever, but I do think injury is likely the largest source of decline. And I tend to be more forgiving of a lack of resilience from poor health, which isn’t guaranteed, compared to poor ability, which can’t be avoided (i.e. poor health lowers total season ‘impact’, but it doesn’t reduce their season ‘goodness’).

What about Durant’s resilience? I see Durant’s resilience as tied in with his scalability and fit. If you put him next to an offensive star like young Westbrook, Curry, Harden who can handle the playmaking and dribble, then Durant becomes incredibly resilient in a finishing ceiling-raising role with less defensive attention. Put him on a team where he’s the primary playmaker and the primary focus of the defense like in 2013 or 2022, and his poorer handle, passing, and decision making let him down. Notably Durant also has imperfect postseason health, though it’s absolutely not as poor as Paul.

Malone’s resilience is similar. I see his lack of resilience as a function of less ideal fit: Malone, like Robinson and Durant, was likely shouldering too large of an offensive burden during seasons when he declined in the postseason. He wasn’t quite as suited for this sort of playoff offensive floor raising, which is a flaw. But not such a critical one that his teams wouldn’t be able to win championships if he had a different supporting cast around him.

Dr J too suffers from a decline in volume from poor fit in the late 70s, though he was perceived as having less of a postseason-specific decline (one wonders if that was because he had already declined in the regular season). When afforded a better fit in the ABA, like Durant with the Warriors, Dr J had some great and resilient playoff performances.

Regardless, I tend to see playoff changes as one of the overrated factors people consider. Let’s consider AuPM: Durant (pre-2022) falls -1%, Paul falls -4%. It’s a change, but not really that much. Most stars are within ~ +/- 8%. Except 97+ Malone, who’s all the way down at -17% in the playoffs. Wowza! Could it be the post-prime years are dragging him down? Well 97–98 Malone is -20%. Again, some of this is from poor fit. But it’s still a change. In overall postseason value, Paul is at +3.88, Durant is at +3.89 (not quite good enough to make up for the longevity / regular season disadvantage), Malone is at +3.20 (18% worse than Paul).

Some statistical evidence:
Moonbeam’s RWOWY:
-Durant: 1-2 samples touching 100th percentile line, 4 over 97th percentile, 8 over 90th, 11 over 75th, 12 over 50th
-Dr J: 0 touching 100th percentile line, 1 over 97th percentile, 6–7 over 90th percentile, 13 over 75th, 16 over 50th
-Karl: 0 samples touching 100th percentile line, 0 over 97th percentile, 6 over 90th, 15 over 75th, 20 over 50th
*note: almost no off sample
-Paul: 1 sample touching 100th percentile line, 6–7 touching 97th percentile, 10 over 90th, 12 over 75th, 16 over 50th

By peak: Paul > Durant > Dr J > Karl.
By prime: Paul > Durant > Dr J > Malone
By longevity: Malone > Dr J >= Paul > Durant

RAPTOR: Career + Prime:
Paul: 196.9 (if 2023 was like 2022)
Karl: 155.7
So Paul > Karl. Dr J missing earlier years. Durant lower than Paul.

Plus minus based stats:
Paul looks best.
Paul vs Durant: Using Goldstein RAPM for 97–19 and Shotcharts RAPM for 20–23, Paul has 5 top 5 years and 10 top 10 years. Durant has only 5 Top 10 years. Paul also looks better in EPM, a plus minus hybrid stat that’s generally considered the best advanced stat on the market.

Paul vs Dr J and Malone: Malone looks great but not quite as good as Paul in the available on-off/AuPM/RAPM data. Dr J has lower on/off in his NBA years than desirable for this tier. For example…
in AuPM: Paul > 1994+ Malone > Durant > NBA Erving.
I suspect Dr J has higher plus minus in the ABA during his peak than in the late-70s NBA, because 1. Health, 2. Spacing and ruleset (no 3 point line in 70s NBA), 3. Surrounding stars not being as good fit in the NBA, 4. ABA competition was estimated at ~90% NBA competition. This is supported by the fact that his ABA RWOWY impact looks better in his ABA years. However, I do think this suggests Dr J has certain athleticism and fit requirements to get the Superstar level impact I’m looking for in this group.

Overall, I think these stats support choosing Paul at this point. But I think there's a clear and fair case to be made for the other candidates, and I won't be upset if/when Malone's longevity wins out.

[OldSchoolNoBull]

Makes sense to talk Moses vs Chuck a lot I think. I see it as reasonable to look at Barkley as being in some ways a better version of Moses...but Barkley has a lazy streak on the court that I can't ignore, and this compounds with all sorts of other stuff that would naturally add to an argument saying Moses accomplished more than Chuck.

I do think the Barkley vs Wade debate is funny because of the ads they appeared in together for a number of years. I feel like Wade never really got anointed as having surpassed Barkley's career...but he deserved this to be done. What Wade did for Miami was huge, and aside from the fact that Barkley never burst through all comers like Wade did in 2006, I think it unlikely that a Barkley would have gotten a LeBron to come join him later on, let alone help instinct an intensity that now has a name ("Heat culture").

He never burst through all comers because his peak years were wasted on a poorly run Sixers team. He won the MVP and went to the Finals his first year in Phoenix, and the was the beginning of the end of his prime. Wade was drafted to a team that, in short order acquired Shaq and then put a sufficient cast of vets/depth around them. But once that team was dismantled aside from Wade, the team's results in 2008, 2009, and 2010 prior to the formation of the Heatles was rather underwhelming, not dissimilar from Barkley's Sixers teams of the late 80s and early 90s.

I think of Wade as a guy who was very good at a lot of things but not truly elite at anything. He wasn't an elite scorer like a Durant or an elite defender like Giannis or an elite playmaker/runner of team offense like CP3.

His career average rTS is 1.27. His efficiency fell off a cliff after 2014, so if I'm nice and cut it off there, it goes up to 3.1. Solid, but not special.

Per JE's RS+PO RAPM set, Wade only had a D-RAPM >= 1 three times in his career. In JE's cumulative 1997-2022 RAPM, Wade's D-RAPM is +0.8(negative is better than positive in this cumulative dataset).

Barkley OTOH was absolutely elite at two things.

Peak Barkley was one of the most efficient scorers ever, with five straight seasons of >= 10 rTS and >= 60% FG. For his career, he has a +6.9 rTS.

Barkley was also pound-for-pound one of the GOAT rebounders.

Draymond's vote above has tied Barkley and Moses up again. We'll see what happens.

[rk2023]

Makes sense to talk Moses vs Chuck a lot I think. I see it as reasonable to look at Barkley as being in some ways a better version of Moses...but Barkley has a lazy streak on the court that I can't ignore, and this compounds with all sorts of other stuff that would naturally add to an argument saying Moses accomplished more than Chuck.

I do think the Barkley vs Wade debate is funny because of the ads they appeared in together for a number of years. I feel like Wade never really got anointed as having surpassed Barkley's career...but he deserved this to be done. What Wade did for Miami was huge, and aside from the fact that Barkley never burst through all comers like Wade did in 2006, I think it unlikely that a Barkley would have gotten a LeBron to come join him later on, let alone help instinct an intensity that now has a name ("Heat culture").

He never burst through all comers because his peak years were wasted on a poorly run Sixers team. He won the MVP and went to the Finals his first year in Phoenix, and the was the beginning of the end of his prime. Wade was drafted to a team that, in short order acquired Shaq and then put a sufficient cast of vets/depth around them. But once that team was dismantled aside from Wade, the team's results in 2008, 2009, and 2010 prior to the formation of the Heatles was rather underwhelming, not dissimilar from Barkley's Sixers teams of the late 80s and early 90s.

I think of Wade as a guy who was very good at a lot of things but not truly elite at anything. He wasn't an elite scorer like a Durant or an elite defender like Giannis or an elite playmaker/runner of team offense like CP3.

His career average rTS is 1.27. His efficiency fell off a cliff after 2014, so if I'm nice and cut it off there, it goes up to 3.1. Solid, but not special.

Per JE's RS+PO RAPM set, Wade only had a D-RAPM >= 1 three times in his career. In JE's cumulative 1997-2022 RAPM, Wade's D-RAPM is +0.8(negative is better than positive in this cumulative dataset).

Barkley OTOH was absolutely elite at two things.

Peak Barkley was one of the most efficient scorers ever, with five straight seasons of >= 10 rTS and >= 60% FG. For his career, he has a +6.9 rTS.

Barkley was also pound-for-pound one of the GOAT rebounders.

Draymond's vote above has tied Barkley and Moses up again. We'll see what happens.

Mind I ask how Paul fares in JE’s yearly increment set on the defensive RAPM split?

[OldSchoolNoBull]

Makes sense to talk Moses vs Chuck a lot I think. I see it as reasonable to look at Barkley as being in some ways a better version of Moses...but Barkley has a lazy streak on the court that I can't ignore, and this compounds with all sorts of other stuff that would naturally add to an argument saying Moses accomplished more than Chuck.

I do think the Barkley vs Wade debate is funny because of the ads they appeared in together for a number of years. I feel like Wade never really got anointed as having surpassed Barkley's career...but he deserved this to be done. What Wade did for Miami was huge, and aside from the fact that Barkley never burst through all comers like Wade did in 2006, I think it unlikely that a Barkley would have gotten a LeBron to come join him later on, let alone help instinct an intensity that now has a name ("Heat culture").

He never burst through all comers because his peak years were wasted on a poorly run Sixers team. He won the MVP and went to the Finals his first year in Phoenix, and the was the beginning of the end of his prime. Wade was drafted to a team that, in short order acquired Shaq and then put a sufficient cast of vets/depth around them. But once that team was dismantled aside from Wade, the team's results in 2008, 2009, and 2010 prior to the formation of the Heatles was rather underwhelming, not dissimilar from Barkley's Sixers teams of the late 80s and early 90s.

I think of Wade as a guy who was very good at a lot of things but not truly elite at anything. He wasn't an elite scorer like a Durant or an elite defender like Giannis or an elite playmaker/runner of team offense like CP3.

His career average rTS is 1.27. His efficiency fell off a cliff after 2014, so if I'm nice and cut it off there, it goes up to 3.1. Solid, but not special.

Per JE's RS+PO RAPM set, Wade only had a D-RAPM >= 1 three times in his career. In JE's cumulative 1997-2022 RAPM, Wade's D-RAPM is +0.8(negative is better than positive in this cumulative dataset).

Barkley OTOH was absolutely elite at two things.

Peak Barkley was one of the most efficient scorers ever, with five straight seasons of >= 10 rTS and >= 60% FG. For his career, he has a +6.9 rTS.

Barkley was also pound-for-pound one of the GOAT rebounders.

Draymond's vote above has tied Barkley and Moses up again. We'll see what happens.

Mind I ask how Paul fares in JE’s yearly increment set on the defensive RAPM split?

Year by year? The spreadsheet I have only goes up through 2019, but this is what it looks like:

1.27
-0.31
-0.9
-0.35
0.19
1.38
1.31
0.67
2.19
1.96
1.37
2.29
1.07
1.03

Nine times 1+, 2 times 2+.

And if you're curious, in the cumulative set, he's at -2(again, negative is good in that dataset).

[OhayoKD]

Is it because they're box(or hybrid in the case of historical RAPTOR)? I don't know why else you'd outright dismiss them.

[/quote[

Historical raptor is box. Modern raptor is a hybrid though there is an impact-only component you can look at. There are actually 2 variants of raptor post 1997 with one using RPM?

If you were to go to the most modern version of raptor or look at post 1997 stuff and reference the box + on/off vs the on/off component, you'd also probably notice that bigger defensive anchors(giannis, draymond, lebron) end up looking alot better in the latter while in a stat like LEBRON, looking at box-only boosts smalls.

Raptor is not exactly industry standard by testing, but even if it was, and even if you were using the "hybrid" version(in this case you are basically just using a suped up PER or IBM variant), you still have the general truism that winning skews towards the bigger two way guys, while --conventional-- box weightings skews towards the smaller one way guys. TBF proper elite all-doing helios seem to actually see the reverse(higher in impact than box(cough magic cough)), but I don't think Julius ever fit into that category.

[f4p]

Vote
1. Kevin Durant

Nomination:
1. Charles Barkley


tough choice. more impressed with durant's peak than chris paul and he's had great chances ruined by teammate injuries in 2013 and 2021. looking at his stats from age 21 to now is just crazy. still churning out 25 PER, 0.200 WS48, 7 BPM seasons and had a crazy 67.7 TS% last year. karl malone just falls off way, way too much in the playoffs to vote for here (something like his 1994 WCF just seems especially bad as the opponent is not legendary and they had hornacek on the team at this point) and he doesn't have the injury excuse, to him or stockton, to mitigate bad losses. erving has playoff issues and only won when moses was easily the best player in the playoffs for philly in 1983.

[OhayoKD]

Nominate: Nikola Jokic
Even better peak than Giannis, no matter whether you look at 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, or 6 years. Top 2 all-time in PER, postseason PER, BPM, and postseason BPM. Advanced stats god who performs much better in top metrics than he does in the box stuff where he's only matched by Jordan. And again, better longevity than Mikan who was already voted in.

Make sure you're comparing similar time-frames or a similar amount of best years and not career averages. It doesn't change --much--(rs specifically i think certain stuff might favor kareem or wilt and lebron gets pretty close, playoff specifically box components start favoring lebron), but averages tend to go down the longer you play.

Jokic also doesn't really look like that in non-box(embid looks better in rapm for some reason, three-year raw isn't that favorable, playoff on/off is shockingly bad), but by peak he's certainly got the stuff to justify being voted in here(or earlier).

Giannis has his own arguments if we're not being so selective but I'd agree at least over 1-year Jokic is emperically favored(2019 rs and playoffs is pretty close per "impact" though)

[OhayoKD]

Vote

1. Chris Paul
Injuries are a big concern but the longetivity is there and he looks pretty great by rs impact. Decent evidence as an elite culture-setter too

2, Julius Erving

Was probably the 3rd or 4th best peak of the 70's, great carry jobs in the aba vs teams full of good nba talent, gets some credit for a bunch of close-misses and a title as the second fiddle in 82. Certainly if we are considering Durant, winning with Moses should factor in.

Nomination
1. Harden

Playing the warriors to a draw iwth durant is impressive in broad-strokes(unsure how good he was individually though), and 2020 is pretty impeachable as a full season at this level. Underrated longevity. Was playing durant to a near draw as early as 2013 and might have already broken out earlier on another team.

Also a bunch of series with great scoring and box-playmaking though defense is a question mark. His assists probably oversell his impact(he had as many assists than Westbrook in 2017 despite Westbrook generating vastly better returns in terms of teammate efficiency), but this low everyone's overrated in one way or another.

[therealbig3]

Re: Wade

I go back and forth on him. In terms of RAPM and box score, he's right there if not better than someone like Kobe during his absolute prime from 05-11. OTOH, I do have questions about his playoff resilience in terms of leading an elite offense...he never did that, not even in 06. There's a case to be made that Wade helped anchor a strong defense and carried a bunch of mediocre offensive players to passable results, but the Heat offense was actually downright bad at times not passable, and it's hard to argue defense as the tipping point for a guy who was clearly an offense-first player (although I am high on his defense).

In terms of skillset, I do think his lack of a consistent outside shot does make him less versatile compared to his peers around this level (Kobe, Dirk, Paul). He paired with Shaq well, but how much of that is because Shaq is perfect for any combo guard? We saw the less than ideal fit next to LeBron, and I'm harder on Wade for that than I am LeBron tbh.

Individually, Wade also didn't ALWAYS come through in the playoffs, despite his reputation...his 07 and 08 seasons get excused because of his shoulder injury, which is fair, but in 09, after a dominant individual regular season, his team bows out to the Hawks in 7 games, and Wade doesn't exactly light the world on fire. A first round exit to the Hawks in a 4-5 matchup and Wade is easily the best player on the court? Feel like he should get more scrutiny for this one...especially if people are going to scrutinize Kobe for not leading his team over clearly superior Suns teams in 06 and 07. He was fantastic against the Celtics in 2010, definitely outperformed his peers like LeBron and Kobe on that end, no issues there. And in 2011, he was actually pretty up and down. He had big series against the Celtics and Mavs, but he struggled big time against the Sixers and Bulls. And then I'm honestly pretty low on "playoff Wade" from 2012 onwards.

A lot of this was probably injuries catching up to him, but even at his apex, he never demonstrated the ability to lead an elite offense and I'm not as high on his offensive portability as guys like Kobe or Dirk. Combined with some pretty weak longevity, he's someone that wouldn't rank this high on my list.

[Gibson22]

Looks like pettit isn't even getting traction as a nominee, lol. Again, after mikan, and after arizin and schayes won their titles, pettit was the best player in the world in 57 and 58. he was drafted only 2 years before russell, 5 years before wilt, 6 years before oscar and west. He was just below those 4 for the rest of his career. He's 12th in our poty shares. Cmon! This is a guy who beat bill russell in the finals and went toe to toe a couple other times. He can't be below giannis, paul, barkley, moses

[One_and_Done]

Voting is getting interesting again now.

Induction vote is Mailman 8, Dr J 4, CP3 4, KD 3 and Giannis 1. Mailman has at least 2 preferences that'll flow on to him, so he's likely getting in. Voting seems to have picked up again too.

Nominations are interesting too; Barkley 7, Nash 3, Moses 3, Jokic 3, Harden 1, Wade 1, Stockton 1 & Pettit 1.

[One_and_Done]

Looks like pettit isn't even getting traction as a nominee, lol. Again, after mikan, and after arizin and schayes won their titles, pettit was the best player in the world in 57 and 58. he was drafted only 2 years before russell, 5 years before wilt, 6 years before oscar and west. He was just below those 4 for the rest of his career. He's 12th in our poty shares. Cmon! This is a guy who beat bill russell in the finals and went toe to toe a couple other times. He can't be below giannis, paul, barkley, moses

He can if you think those guys were rated too high. Russell was injured when he won a title btw.

Pettit wouldn't even be an all-star today.

[Gibson22]

Re: Wade

I go back and forth on him. In terms of RAPM and box score, he's right there if not better than someone like Kobe during his absolute prime from 05-11. OTOH, I do have questions about his playoff resilience in terms of leading an elite offense...he never did that, not even in 06. There's a case to be made that Wade helped anchor a strong defense and carried a bunch of mediocre offensive players to passable results, but the Heat offense was actually downright bad at times not passable, and it's hard to argue defense as the tipping point for a guy who was clearly an offense-first player (although I am high on his defense).

In terms of skillset, I do think his lack of a consistent outside shot does make him less versatile compared to his peers around this level (Kobe, Dirk, Paul). He paired with Shaq well, but how much of that is because Shaq is perfect for any combo guard? We saw the less than ideal fit next to LeBron, and I'm harder on Wade for that than I am LeBron tbh.

Individually, Wade also didn't ALWAYS come through in the playoffs, despite his reputation...his 07 and 08 seasons get excused because of his shoulder injury, which is fair, but in 09, after a dominant individual regular season, his team bows out to the Hawks in 7 games, and Wade doesn't exactly light the world on fire. A first round exit to the Hawks in a 4-5 matchup and Wade is easily the best player on the court? Feel like he should get more scrutiny for this one...especially if people are going to scrutinize Kobe for not leading his team over clearly superior Suns teams in 06 and 07. He was fantastic against the Celtics in 2010, definitely outperformed his peers like LeBron and Kobe on that end, no issues there. And in 2011, he was actually pretty up and down. He had big series against the Celtics and Mavs, but he struggled big time against the Sixers and Bulls. And then I'm honestly pretty low on "playoff Wade" from 2012 onwards.

A lot of this was probably injuries catching up to him, but even at his apex, he never demonstrated the ability to lead an elite offense and I'm not as high on his offensive portability as guys like Kobe or Dirk. Combined with some pretty weak longevity, he's someone that wouldn't rank this high on my list.

Yeah, this post has made me think. On the one hand wade is for sure someone who has the type of game to carry your team in the playoffs or even to a title, like he did. Athleticism, iso scoring, defense. Someone who can go get a bucket. But he's more like a iverson, like a irving. There are concerns around his game as far as scalability (6'3-6'4 with no 3 point shot, and streaky middy) and like you said leading elite offenses. But other than that, it's the fact that in his prime he has 2 useless seasons, being 07 when he got injured and swept in the first round and 08 when the heat went 15-67. So wade only has 05 which was a strong all nba season, 06, 09, 10, which are mvp level seasons, 2011 still weak mvp, 2012 he was still a very strong all nba level guy, 2013 he declined a lot again but he was still #2 fiddle, all star level contributor. then, just a bunch of abvoe average starter seasons. his longevity really suffers from those two seasons in the middle of his prime.
In the end, even as far as accolades, he's only 2x 1st team, 3x 2nd team, 3x 3rd team, no mvps, only 37th in points, 47th in assists, 33rd in steals, obviously most blocks by a guard (or player under 6'7) in history. Mh, maybe I feel like as a player wade is 20ish, as peak he's top 20 and his prime would be top 20 if he had 07 and 08 but for the things being he has 3 mvp level, 1 weak mvp, 2 strong all nba, 1 all star and like 5 sub all star seasons, which isn't the strongest resume

[One_and_Done]

I'll take Barkley over Wade thanks. Here's a video reminder of what a beast prime Barkley was.

https://youtu.be/03vp4_NUUZM?si=4JW8UmkfvPaLijou

[Gibson22]

Looks like pettit isn't even getting traction as a nominee, lol. Again, after mikan, and after arizin and schayes won their titles, pettit was the best player in the world in 57 and 58. he was drafted only 2 years before russell, 5 years before wilt, 6 years before oscar and west. He was just below those 4 for the rest of his career. He's 12th in our poty shares. Cmon! This is a guy who beat bill russell in the finals and went toe to toe a couple other times. He can't be below giannis, paul, barkley, moses

He can if you think those guys were rated too high. Russell was injured when he won a title btw.

Pettit wouldn't even be an all-star today.

You keep mentioning this like this holds any value. It doesn't. I don't care if some of you think it does: it doesn't. Again, I believe that any sane person should believe that any top high school guard would bomb the, let's say, pre michael jordan nba, and that every player shoots dribbles and does everything immensely better. And yeah, I know about the rule changes and all of that, but that's just a part. there's the nutrition, the food, the equipment, the training, more people in the world, more people picking up basketball, nba being open to the rest of the world and not just usa. The only exceptions are the athletic freaks, guys like russell, wilt, dr j, michael jordan would be more impactful and are as much freaks as anybody today, but as far as the game it's ridicolously better, watching a 2012 game is laughable let alone bob pettit. But. that's. not. the. point. the. point. is. measuring. in. era. impact. that's not up for debate. if not, yes, paul george would alsolutely flame every pre 80s player beside maybe wilt and russell, who also had primitive basektball skills so maybe even them

[One_and_Done]

Did you have Mikan top 5? No? Then your era relativity criteria is inconsistent as hell.

At least the 'try to determine objective value' crowd is trying to be consistent.

[tsherkin]

That he’s the least efficient scorer in this group (using shooting efficiency as the sole consideration) somewhat [imo] misses the point or broad picture in terms of his candidacy or competitiveness for this spot….

A) He’s not a primary scorer (the ONLY one of this group who is not); he’s first and foremost a passer/playmaker.

B) the [so] oft-forgotten other element of offensive efficiency: turnover economy. He’s the best of the bunch here (even relative to position played, and perhaps even handily so).

C) Defense. He’s arguably the second-most impactful defender (REGARDLESS of position) in this group (behind Giannis).

And his longevity/durability profile is better than KD and Giannis, at least.

Not entirely sure why you quoted me here, but cheers anyway. Was really only addressing the scoring efficiency because I remember Paul as a pretty efficient guy. And lo, he was, just not as wildly deviated from league average as some of the other guys in the current conversation. I agree that his offensive impact goes beyond his scoring efficiency, for what I think are obvious reasons.

[tsherkin]

Re: Wade
...
in 09, after a dominant individual regular season, his team bows out to the Hawks in 7 games, and Wade doesn't exactly light the world on fire.

He did put 29/5/5 on them on +2.1% rTS (compared to playoff average). Surrounded by Michael Beasley, the corpse of Jermaine O'neal, James Jones, Haslem and Mo Chalmers. It's not like he was operating in a supportive offensive environment. Not-Wade shot 32% from three in that series, while he shot 36%. He put up 41 in their Game 6 win, and then 31 in Game 7. though he struggled in that game outside of the third quarter. He didn't beat the world about with his performance, but he played well. Bootstrapping that team to even that point was fairly impressive, and I think he gassed after Game 6. And remember, they traded Marion to Toronto halfway through the season... and then only won 18 more games the rest of the season.

That said, he didn't burn the Hawks the way you'd expect a really high-end scorer to do. He was the scoring champ that year. He posted about an average performance on that series. He was what, 30.2 ppg and 57.4% TS in the RS, and then 29.1 ppg and 56.5% TS in the playoffs. Just didn't have anything to work with around him, though.

[70sFan]

Did you have Mikan top 5? No? Then your era relativity criteria is inconsistent as hell.

At least the 'try to determine objective value' crowd is trying to be consistent.

Some people have Mikan outside of top 5 because of his worse longevity, not because they hold the era against him.

I trully don't understand how you, of all participants, can call anyone inconsistent.

[70sFan]

For people nominating Barkley - what's the argument for him over Moses?