Is Kobe given the most flack of any star? Highlighting inconsistent arguments against him.

[Jamaaliver]

You mean like Kareem missing the postseason multiple times in his prime? And the overwhelming consensus is that he's not in the debate for GOAT. You're whining about nothing.

Great. I'm not double checking your math.

But if you have to go back 40+ years to find another example...that's pretty telling.

[flytimes11]

I don't hate Kobe. At all. I'm simply old enough to have seen the entire Kobe-Lakers saga play out in real time.



Challenge: Show me another GOAT contender who failed to get out of the 1st round of the playoffs...in their prime...for 3 straight years...

It doesn't happen.

the west was stacked, and that team was awful. As soon as Kobe got help he took the lakers to 3 straight finals and in those 3 straight finals runs he became the only player in nba history to record 600 points, 100 assists, and 100 rebounds in 3 straight playoffs. Look at all the 50 win playoff teams Kobe beat in his career.

[DOT]

Losing in the 1st round > losing in the Finals

If LeBron had lost in the 1st round every year he lost in the Finals and Kobe made it to the Finals and lost in 05, 06, and 07, LeBron would be the undisputed GOAT and Kobe wouldn't even crack the top 75.

[Primedeion]

You mean like Kareem missing the postseason multiple times in his prime? And the overwhelming consensus is that he's not in the debate for GOAT. You're whining about nothing.

Great. I'm not double checking your math.

But if you have to go back 40+ years to find another example...that's pretty telling.

Yes you're right. Kareem is definitely not a GOAT candidate. Brilliant stuff.

[dj20001]

Which makes it even wilder that Kobe leads the decade in chips by a decent margin outside of Shaq. 7/10 Finals he played in and that includes the years of nothing smack dab in the middle.

Eh....

In the 12 years after Jordan retired in 1998,

Phil Jackson won 5 rings with the Lakers.
Gregg Poppovich won 4 rings with the Spurs.

Both are impressive feats.

But in 2004, LA chose Kobe over Phil Jackson...and the Lakers immediately became mediocre. That says a lot.

TL:DR:

Read on Twitter

From what I recall, as a Laker fan, Phil and Buss weren’t seeing eye to eye at that time. In part bc Phil was getting credit for the rings as you alluded to.

And the Lakers became mediocre bc of their roster, first, being in the west second. Feel free to list out that 2004-05 roster when you have a chance

[dj20001]

Losing in the 1st round > losing in the Finals

If LeBron had lost in the 1st round every year he lost in the Finals and Kobe made it to the Finals and lost in 05, 06, and 07, LeBron would be the undisputed GOAT and Kobe wouldn't even crack the top 75.

LBJ only made the Finals that many years in a row bc his comp was weak. Wild how he’s given credit for the run, but you completely leave out a major reason why.

When you talk about Kobe, however, everything is on display.

Why aren’t you being consistent?

[dj20001]

Y’all are insufferable same damn argument every page. No one will change their mind, surprised this is still going

Kobe was coming on at 10:30pm EST most nights. There are plenty of open, non Kobe fans in this thread. You think they actually stayed up late to watch the games?

Exactly. Most people saw ESPN highlights of him making tough shots. They didn't see all the times he unsuccessfully played heroball and chucked his team out of games.

Define unsuccessful…?

Pretty sure Kobe has a positive winning % in those games he went crazy, also has more rings and accolades than many of the players you wanted him to play like haha

[dj20001]

Pretty much. Magic never won without Kareem. Gasol was a fringe all star before he got to LA. All the narratives surrounding Kobe are exaggerated.

Shaq won his only MVP with Kobe as the primary playmaker too. Even though he played multiple seasons with Penny, who came into the league openly glazing Shaq and talking about how much he would be passing him the rock.

Make it make sense

Wow Shaq didn't win an MVP with Penny before the age of 23, clearly that's proof of Kobes superior playmaking

That’s not my point. How can Kobe, as a ball hog, chucker, play on a team where another player could possibly get enough opportunities to win MVP?

[dj20001]

I think kobe gets passes other players dont get and his resume is "beefed up" with more undeserved all star selections and all nba selections than anyone i can think of.

I dont think he gets the above mentioned passes in real gm though, they find a way to underrate him here somehow.

I got kobe in my top 10 though. Back end. Not top 3 or top 5, like a lot of stans do using flawed logic. Not outside the top 10 and in some cases top 15 like a lot of people in real gm do. I think its a fair ranking.

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

When was Kobe underserving of making the all star team? Which seasons?

Coaches voted on NBA all defense through 2013-14.

You’re not making any sense

[DOT]

Losing in the 1st round > losing in the Finals

If LeBron had lost in the 1st round every year he lost in the Finals and Kobe made it to the Finals and lost in 05, 06, and 07, LeBron would be the undisputed GOAT and Kobe wouldn't even crack the top 75.

LBJ only made the Finals that many years in a row bc his comp was weak. Wild how he’s given credit for the run, but you completely leave out a major reason why.

When you talk about Kobe, however, everything is on display.

Why aren’t you being consistent?

Exactly, he should have lost to those weak competition, that would have been preferable to beating them and losing in the Finals, cause we all know losing in the Finals is by far the worst thing for your legacy. That’s why Jimmy Butler’s legacy is forever tarnished, cause he’s 0-2 in the Finals, when if he had lost in the first round those years, he’d be looked on more favorably

You also can’t have any other help on your team

That’s why I have both Kobe and Shaq ahead of LeBron. Neither of them had any help for their championships.

[nikster]

Shaq won his only MVP with Kobe as the primary playmaker too. Even though he played multiple seasons with Penny, who came into the league openly glazing Shaq and talking about how much he would be passing him the rock.

Make it make sense

Wow Shaq didn't win an MVP with Penny before the age of 23, clearly that's proof of Kobes superior playmaking

That’s not my point. How can Kobe, as a ball hog, chucker, play on a team where another player could possibly get enough opportunities to win MVP?

It's prime Shaq lol, nobody was claiming he's holding him back that much.

Also hilarious that is your argument because Shaqs only MVP became with Kobe still young and in a smaller role. His USG% that year was 27%, his career average was 32%

[dj20001]

Losing in the 1st round > losing in the Finals

If LeBron had lost in the 1st round every year he lost in the Finals and Kobe made it to the Finals and lost in 05, 06, and 07, LeBron would be the undisputed GOAT and Kobe wouldn't even crack the top 75.

LBJ only made the Finals that many years in a row bc his comp was weak. Wild how he’s given credit for the run, but you completely leave out a major reason why.

When you talk about Kobe, however, everything is on display.

Why aren’t you being consistent?

Exactly, he should have lost to those weak competition, that would have been preferable to beating them and losing in the Finals, cause we all know losing in the Finals is by far the worst thing for your legacy. That’s why Jimmy Butler’s legacy is forever tarnished, cause he’s 0-2 in the Finals, when if he had lost in the first round those years, he’d be looked on more favorably

You also can’t have any other help on your team

That’s why I have both Kobe and Shaq ahead of LeBron. Neither of them had any help for their championships.

Why give LBJ credit for beating weak competition en route the Finals, and lose to a team of substance when he gets there, but blast other players for losing to better competition aka (those same teams in some instances) in an earlier round?

You make it seem like Bron was beating teams seeded higher than the Cavs during those runs. He was going up against Demar, Horford led teams or beating teams with losing records that made the playoffs somehow. Meanwhile, Kobe drags an 8th seed to the playoffs and loses to the 1 and everyone is shocked at the outcome.

[dj20001]

Wow Shaq didn't win an MVP with Penny before the age of 23, clearly that's proof of Kobes superior playmaking

That’s not my point. How can Kobe, as a ball hog, chucker, play on a team where another player could possibly get enough opportunities to win MVP?

It's prime Shaq lol, nobody was claiming he's holding him back that much.

Also hilarious that is your argument because Shaqs only MVP became with Kobe still young and in a smaller role. His USG% that year was 27%, his career average was 32%

None of my commentary mentioned age, so I think you’re getting ahead of yourself here. You, personally, have mentioned age on multiple occasions now however.

Kobe was playing a pseudo Pippen and MJ role during his time on the Lakers so his usage makes sense. Again, if he were such a ball hog and not passing the rock, how did Shaq get enough opportunities to win an MVP, especially after Duncan hit the league?

You’ve still said nothing haha

[DOT]

LBJ only made the Finals that many years in a row bc his comp was weak. Wild how he’s given credit for the run, but you completely leave out a major reason why.

When you talk about Kobe, however, everything is on display.

Why aren’t you being consistent?

Exactly, he should have lost to those weak competition, that would have been preferable to beating them and losing in the Finals, cause we all know losing in the Finals is by far the worst thing for your legacy. That’s why Jimmy Butler’s legacy is forever tarnished, cause he’s 0-2 in the Finals, when if he had lost in the first round those years, he’d be looked on more favorably

You also can’t have any other help on your team

That’s why I have both Kobe and Shaq ahead of LeBron. Neither of them had any help for their championships.

Why give LBJ credit for beating weak competition en route the Finals, and lose to a team of substance when he gets there, but blast other players for losing to better competition aka (those same teams in some instances) in an earlier round?

You make it seem like Bron was beating teams seeded higher than the Cavs during those runs. He was going up against Demar, Horford led teams or beating teams with losing records that made the playoffs somehow. Meanwhile, Kobe drags an 8th seed to the playoffs and loses to the 1 and everyone is shocked at the outcome.

Right, we should blast Bron for making it to lose to better competition instead of losing to weak competition in the earlier rounds

We're in agreement here, I dunno why you're so argumentative.

[nikster]

That’s not my point. How can Kobe, as a ball hog, chucker, play on a team where another player could possibly get enough opportunities to win MVP?

It's prime Shaq lol, nobody was claiming he's holding him back that much.

Also hilarious that is your argument because Shaqs only MVP became with Kobe still young and in a smaller role. His USG% that year was 27%, his career average was 32%

None of my commentary mentioned age, so I think you’re getting ahead of yourself here. You, personally, have mentioned age on multiple occasions now however.

Kobe was playing a pseudo Pippen and MJ role during his time on the Lakers so his usage makes sense. Again, if he were such a ball hog and not passing the rock, how did Shaq get enough opportunities to win an MVP, especially after Duncan hit the league?

You’ve still said nothing haha

Shaqs only MVP came at a time when Kobe was 21 and dominated the ball less than he would in his prime...

[MoneyMo]

I think kobe gets passes other players dont get and his resume is "beefed up" with more undeserved all star selections and all nba selections than anyone i can think of.

I dont think he gets the above mentioned passes in real gm though, they find a way to underrate him here somehow.

I got kobe in my top 10 though. Back end. Not top 3 or top 5, like a lot of stans do using flawed logic. Not outside the top 10 and in some cases top 15 like a lot of people in real gm do. I think its a fair ranking.

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

When was Kobe underserving of making the all star team? Which seasons?

Coaches voted on NBA all defense through 2013-14.

You’re not making any sense

Kobe shouldn't have been an all-star in: 13-14, 14-15, 15-16 and arguably 97-98. He was voted in by the fans that year while averaging 15ppg on 42.8%

[dj20001]

I think kobe gets passes other players dont get and his resume is "beefed up" with more undeserved all star selections and all nba selections than anyone i can think of.

I dont think he gets the above mentioned passes in real gm though, they find a way to underrate him here somehow.

I got kobe in my top 10 though. Back end. Not top 3 or top 5, like a lot of stans do using flawed logic. Not outside the top 10 and in some cases top 15 like a lot of people in real gm do. I think its a fair ranking.

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

When was Kobe underserving of making the all star team? Which seasons?

Coaches voted on NBA all defense through 2013-14.

You’re not making any sense

Kobe shouldn't have been an all-star in: 13-14, 14-15, 15-16 and arguably 97-98. He was voted in by the fans that year while averaging 15ppg on 42.8%

I see you didn’t even touch the all defense portion. Interesting.

In 97-98, Kobe clearly had the talent to make the game, just look at how he played. It was Kobe v MJ for MVP until George Karl benched him the entire 4th.

Since I’m sure you probably have Tim Duncan ranked higher than Kobe all time, I don’t think you’ll want to bring up that he has just as many, if not more underserving all star game appearances than Kobe. 10-11, 12-13, 14-15.

Be consistent.

[dj20001]

It's prime Shaq lol, nobody was claiming he's holding him back that much.

Also hilarious that is your argument because Shaqs only MVP became with Kobe still young and in a smaller role. His USG% that year was 27%, his career average was 32%

None of my commentary mentioned age, so I think you’re getting ahead of yourself here. You, personally, have mentioned age on multiple occasions now however.

Kobe was playing a pseudo Pippen and MJ role during his time on the Lakers so his usage makes sense. Again, if he were such a ball hog and not passing the rock, how did Shaq get enough opportunities to win an MVP, especially after Duncan hit the league?

You’ve still said nothing haha

Shaqs only MVP came at a time when Kobe was 21 and dominated the ball less than he would in his prime...

27% and 32%.

Huge difference, right? Haha

[dj20001]

Exactly, he should have lost to those weak competition, that would have been preferable to beating them and losing in the Finals, cause we all know losing in the Finals is by far the worst thing for your legacy. That’s why Jimmy Butler’s legacy is forever tarnished, cause he’s 0-2 in the Finals, when if he had lost in the first round those years, he’d be looked on more favorably

You also can’t have any other help on your team

That’s why I have both Kobe and Shaq ahead of LeBron. Neither of them had any help for their championships.

Why give LBJ credit for beating weak competition en route the Finals, and lose to a team of substance when he gets there, but blast other players for losing to better competition aka (those same teams in some instances) in an earlier round?

You make it seem like Bron was beating teams seeded higher than the Cavs during those runs. He was going up against Demar, Horford led teams or beating teams with losing records that made the playoffs somehow. Meanwhile, Kobe drags an 8th seed to the playoffs and loses to the 1 and everyone is shocked at the outcome.

Right, we should blast Bron for making it to lose to better competition instead of losing to weak competition in the earlier rounds

We're in agreement here, I dunno why you're so argumentative.

Kobe didn’t lose to weaker comp in the earlier rounds, that’s the issue with your comparison. Losing as an 8 seed to a 1 is expected. Beating an 8 seed as the 1 is expected. Making the Finals beating weaker teams and then losing to the one good team you play is expected.

I’m not being argumentative but your commentary is sarcastic and inconsistent

[nikster]

None of my commentary mentioned age, so I think you’re getting ahead of yourself here. You, personally, have mentioned age on multiple occasions now however.

Kobe was playing a pseudo Pippen and MJ role during his time on the Lakers so his usage makes sense. Again, if he were such a ball hog and not passing the rock, how did Shaq get enough opportunities to win an MVP, especially after Duncan hit the league?

You’ve still said nothing haha

Shaqs only MVP came at a time when Kobe was 21 and dominated the ball less than he would in his prime...

27% and 32%.

Huge difference, right? Haha

Thats like a 20% increase in possessions used so yes that's significant