The Trey Lance thread

[Pattersonca65]

Okay, but shouldn’t Trey have been given more room for error due to the fact that he has the highest upside? Hell Purdy was throwing picks left in right during training camp according to Grant Cohn, and never had any consequences for it, but yet they killed Trey for any little error he made. It’s not surprising that he & Jimmy are coming out and roasting the coaching staff here for how they were treated.

Because it is practice. There is a reason for it. Even elite QBs throw picks in practice

Then why was Trey so scrutinized about what he did in practice if Purdy wasn’t? Seems like a double standard.

Where was he so scrutinized? Reporters reported on what they saw in camp. People see what they want to see

[Pattersonca65]

I guess. It just seemed like he got way too much credit for throwing 5 yard swing passes to the playmakers and being propped up by a top defense. If it had been Jimmy G on that win streak everyone would have been attributing those wins to the McCaffey trade.

Well, I think there’s definitely an argument that CMC was the primary propellant, but I also think it stepped up a couple notches when he took over. But anyways, and I am not at all saying they are comparable, but just to contextualize the perception, both Montana and Brady early in their careers were slighted for just throwing short passes to playmakers. If it’s there, are you a better qb to not take it? He literally never failed to achieve his primary goal while possessing a working throwing arm, he destroyed all prior records for rookie qbs over similar stretches, like literally better than Marino’s rookie year per/game, I think that qualifies as an outlier even without accounting for being Mr. Irrelevant. But this is all pretty subjective, so I’m not saying you’re wrong. I just don’t think there’s any evidence you’re right.

Edit: anyone else think that with autocorrect it’s gotten personal?

Brady never had the same level of playmakers early on that Purdy had last year. It’s not really about slighting Purdy, just more about being realistic about why he was able to have success last year. This is the same team that mediocre Jimmy G took to within 1 play of winning a ring. Just think that dudes need to pump the brakes and be realistic that Purdy is probably going to cap out as Kirk Cousins over the next 5 years whereas Trey has a much higher ceiling than that.

Trey's ceiling could very well just be another Colin Kaepernick.

[Harry Palmer]

Well, I think there’s definitely an argument that CMC was the primary propellant, but I also think it stepped up a couple notches when he took over. But anyways, and I am not at all saying they are comparable, but just to contextualize the perception, both Montana and Brady early in their careers were slighted for just throwing short passes to playmakers. If it’s there, are you a better qb to not take it? He literally never failed to achieve his primary goal while possessing a working throwing arm, he destroyed all prior records for rookie qbs over similar stretches, like literally better than Marino’s rookie year per/game, I think that qualifies as an outlier even without accounting for being Mr. Irrelevant. But this is all pretty subjective, so I’m not saying you’re wrong. I just don’t think there’s any evidence you’re right.

Edit: anyone else think that with autocorrect it’s gotten personal?

Brady never had the same level of playmakers early on that Purdy had last year. It’s not really about slighting Purdy, just more about being realistic about why he was able to have success last year. This is the same team that mediocre Jimmy G took to within 1 play of winning a ring. Just think that dudes need to pump the brakes and be realistic that Purdy is probably going to cap out as Kirk Cousins over the next 5 years whereas Trey has a much higher ceiling than that.

Trey's ceiling could very well just be another Colin Kaepernick.

Blackballed for doing something so outrageous he’d done it for like 5 weeks before anyone even noticed?

[wco81]

We talk about Jimmy's limitations but he's probably the winningest QB in franchise history after Montana and Young.

[CrimsonCrew]

Brady never had the same level of playmakers early on that Purdy had last year. It’s not really about slighting Purdy, just more about being realistic about why he was able to have success last year. This is the same team that mediocre Jimmy G took to within 1 play of winning a ring. Just think that dudes need to pump the brakes and be realistic that Purdy is probably going to cap out as Kirk Cousins over the next 5 years whereas Trey has a much higher ceiling than that.

Trey's ceiling could very well just be another Colin Kaepernick.

Blackballed for doing something so outrageous he’d done it for like 5 weeks before anyone even noticed?

Don't forget that he chose the kneeling after talking to a former Navy Seal about how sitting during the anthem could be off-putting and offend some people, and that kneeling would send a message but do so with a show of respect.

[Harry Palmer]

Trey's ceiling could very well just be another Colin Kaepernick.

Blackballed for doing something so outrageous he’d done it for like 5 weeks before anyone even noticed?

Don't forget that he chose the kneeling after talking to a former Navy Seal about how sitting during the anthem could be off-putting and offend some people, and that kneeling would send a message but do so with a show of respect.

But really the point is protests are great and wonderful and we all support them provided no one is in any way inconvenienced, made uncomfortable, or even especially aware of the protests. That’s how protests should work, alone in your basement closet when no one else is in the house. And I’ll support your right to protest like that to the end! Freedom!

[CrimsonCrew]

Well, I think there’s definitely an argument that CMC was the primary propellant, but I also think it stepped up a couple notches when he took over. But anyways, and I am not at all saying they are comparable, but just to contextualize the perception, both Montana and Brady early in their careers were slighted for just throwing short passes to playmakers. If it’s there, are you a better qb to not take it? He literally never failed to achieve his primary goal while possessing a working throwing arm, he destroyed all prior records for rookie qbs over similar stretches, like literally better than Marino’s rookie year per/game, I think that qualifies as an outlier even without accounting for being Mr. Irrelevant. But this is all pretty subjective, so I’m not saying you’re wrong. I just don’t think there’s any evidence you’re right.

Edit: anyone else think that with autocorrect it’s gotten personal?

Brady never had the same level of playmakers early on that Purdy had last year. It’s not really about slighting Purdy, just more about being realistic about why he was able to have success last year. This is the same team that mediocre Jimmy G took to within 1 play of winning a ring. Just think that dudes need to pump the brakes and be realistic that Purdy is probably going to cap out as Kirk Cousins over the next 5 years whereas Trey has a much higher ceiling than that.

Trey's ceiling could very well just be another Colin Kaepernick.

There's a real chance - especially at this point - that he never reaches a Kaepernick level. Kap was elite running the ball. He wasn't elusive, but if he got up to speed in the open field, he would just kill teams (see: the Green Bay Packers). Trey never came close to showing that ability. They have similar struggles with accuracy and reading a defense. Although Kap had a famous work ethic, it always felt like he was working on the wrong things. Keeping his body in prime condition, which was absolutely important, but he really needed more film study probably (tougher to get info on how much film study guys were doing in those days). Lance is supposed to be a film junky.

What makes Trey a tough call for me is the indecisiveness and bad decisions we saw from him in the preseason. It strongly suggested he needed more time seeing an NFL defense from the pocket, and needed reps against it to get a better understanding of what "open" looked like in the NFL. I don't think he'll ever cure his accuracy issues, but he can certainly improve upon them, and has already done so. So the big question for me was the vision. And that's just hard to gauge. Some guys just never get it, and that could be Lance. But to me, it looked like he knew the offense, he did a good job of getting through his reads, and he just needed to believe in what he was seeing.

There is a chance - again, slimmer as he goes to Dallas to maybe battle for the #2 spot, probably - that with more reps, the light suddenly turns on and he becomes a really effective QB. That chance was enough for me to want to retain him. But there's probably a greater chance that he never gets the experience he needs and that light never comes on. It will be interesting to watch as his career continues.

[Big J]

More wiggle room than he got? Yes. Enough to beat out Brock? No, as explained it was Brock’s to lose and unlike the Darnold/QB2 thing the Niners were pretty explicit about that and pretty much everyone understood. You play as well as Brock did, you go out on an injury in and NFC Championship game that I think we can all agree doesn’t happen if he doesn’t play as well as he did with zero prep, and the job is yours to lose. That’s what the phrase means, you have to lose it. And as for the practice picks, honestly that much I’m willing to defer to the coaches and the injury recovery. And yeah, I say the latter about Lance too. And who knows if Brock is just testing his limitations, something we’d have liked to see more of from Trey. But w/e the games got real Brock played very well, and he’d have to do something dramatically worse or Trey (or I suppose academically Sam) dramatically better to supplant him. Now if Trey’s on the team and we seriously underachieve and Brock’s looking much more irrelevant say 10 games in, am I pushing for Trey to get a shot? Probably. That’s partly why I’m so pissed they dealt him, our entire upside now rests on how much better Brock can play than last year and I suspect that’s not too much. But if he plays like last year or how he’s looked so far in preseason games we don’t need upside, we’re pretty much there.

At the very least the team could have used Trey in a super charged Taysom Hill role. Throw him out there on goal line packages and the defense has to deal with the threat of a 250 lb qb ramming it in on them. Just makes absolutely zero sense to trade him for peanuts.

Trey Lance got hurt running early in the season. And they are going to continue trying to run him into people? And there is reason most teams that have tried what you are advocating abandoned it.

If he’s the 3rd string qb who cares if he gets hurt running? Most teams have abandoned that strategy because they don’t have a weapon like Trey Lance or Taysom Hill on their roster.

[Pattersonca65]

At the very least the team could have used Trey in a super charged Taysom Hill role. Throw him out there on goal line packages and the defense has to deal with the threat of a 250 lb qb ramming it in on them. Just makes absolutely zero sense to trade him for peanuts.

Trey Lance got hurt running early in the season. And they are going to continue trying to run him into people? And there is reason most teams that have tried what you are advocating abandoned it.

If he’s the 3rd string qb who cares if he gets hurt running? Most teams have abandoned that strategy because they don’t have a weapon like Trey Lance or Taysom Hill on their roster.

No, they had the weapons but it doesn't work well. It causes more problems then the benefits it may provide. Lance is not that good of runner. He isn't very elusive. Lance looked much better against inferior college talent.

[Big J]

Trey Lance got hurt running early in the season. And they are going to continue trying to run him into people? And there is reason most teams that have tried what you are advocating abandoned it.

If he’s the 3rd string qb who cares if he gets hurt running? Most teams have abandoned that strategy because they don’t have a weapon like Trey Lance or Taysom Hill on their roster.

No, they had the weapons but it doesn't work well. It causes more problems then the benefits it may provide. Lance is not that good of runner. He isn't very elusive. Lance looked much better against inferior college talent.

How does it cause problems? It seemed to work pretty damn well for the Saints. Also Lance is a great runner. He might not be elusive, but he’s absolutely massive and hella athletic. We just haven’t seen him enough to know what he can do.

[CrimsonCrew]

If he’s the 3rd string qb who cares if he gets hurt running? Most teams have abandoned that strategy because they don’t have a weapon like Trey Lance or Taysom Hill on their roster.

No, they had the weapons but it doesn't work well. It causes more problems then the benefits it may provide. Lance is not that good of runner. He isn't very elusive. Lance looked much better against inferior college talent.

How does it cause problems? It seemed to work pretty damn well for the Saints. Also Lance is a great runner. He might not be elusive, but he’s absolutely massive and hella athletic. We just haven’t seen him enough to know what he can do.

I would argue that running the ball is the one area where we have seen enough of Lance to have a pretty good idea of what he can do. And it's solid, but it's not elite. His called runs in this offense were not very effective. The place where we had the most success was running the read-option with him when we gave the ball to the RBs. Those plays were very effective. Lance himself running was less so, and against teams that weren't exactly stout against the run.

[Pattersonca65]

If he’s the 3rd string qb who cares if he gets hurt running? Most teams have abandoned that strategy because they don’t have a weapon like Trey Lance or Taysom Hill on their roster.

No, they had the weapons but it doesn't work well. It causes more problems then the benefits it may provide. Lance is not that good of runner. He isn't very elusive. Lance looked much better against inferior college talent.

How does it cause problems? It seemed to work pretty damn well for the Saints. Also Lance is a great runner. He might not be elusive, but he’s absolutely massive and hella athletic. We just haven’t seen him enough to know what he can do.

It worked well for one team you mentioned. The 49ers have tried it twice over the years. Bill Walsh tried it with Young/Montana and Harbaugh tried it with Kaepernick and Smith and in both cases the coaches abandoned it. It takes the starting QB out of rhythm. It is asking for a backup QB to come in cold and potentially make a passing play at the goal line and if that player isn't going to be asked to throw the ball defenses are just going to key on that person running. Over the long run it wasn't effective for Harbaugh and any benefit from it was outweighed by the issues it caused. Trey isn't elusive. He can't run over people like he did in college. That isn't going to change. He isn't going to be like the other really good running QBs in the league.

[Big J]

No, they had the weapons but it doesn't work well. It causes more problems then the benefits it may provide. Lance is not that good of runner. He isn't very elusive. Lance looked much better against inferior college talent.

How does it cause problems? It seemed to work pretty damn well for the Saints. Also Lance is a great runner. He might not be elusive, but he’s absolutely massive and hella athletic. We just haven’t seen him enough to know what he can do.

It worked well for one team you mentioned. The 49ers have tried it twice over the years. Bill Walsh tried it with Young/Montana and Harbaugh tried it with Kaepernick and Smith and in both cases the coaches abandoned it. It takes the starting QB out of rhythm. It is asking for a backup QB to come in cold and potentially make a passing play at the goal line and if that player isn't going to be asked to throw the ball defenses are just going to key on that person running. Over the long run it wasn't effective for Harbaugh and any benefit from it was outweighed by the issues it caused. Trey isn't elusive. He can't run over people like he did in college. That isn't going to change. He isn't going to be like the other really good running QBs in the league.

At Treys peak he could easily be a Cam Newton esque runner. Cam wasn’t particularly elusive either, but he could bull guys over. I don’t get how Trey running a 1 yard qb sneak is going to throw off the starting qbs rhythm. If that is the case that qb would be extremely fragile mentally.

[Pattersonca65]

How does it cause problems? It seemed to work pretty damn well for the Saints. Also Lance is a great runner. He might not be elusive, but he’s absolutely massive and hella athletic. We just haven’t seen him enough to know what he can do.

It worked well for one team you mentioned. The 49ers have tried it twice over the years. Bill Walsh tried it with Young/Montana and Harbaugh tried it with Kaepernick and Smith and in both cases the coaches abandoned it. It takes the starting QB out of rhythm. It is asking for a backup QB to come in cold and potentially make a passing play at the goal line and if that player isn't going to be asked to throw the ball defenses are just going to key on that person running. Over the long run it wasn't effective for Harbaugh and any benefit from it was outweighed by the issues it caused. Trey isn't elusive. He can't run over people like he did in college. That isn't going to change. He isn't going to be like the other really good running QBs in the league.

At Treys peak he could easily be a Cam Newton esque runner. Cam wasn’t particularly elusive either, but he could bull guys over. I don’t get how Trey running a 1 yard qb sneak is going to throw off the starting qbs rhythm. If that is the case that qb would be extremely fragile mentally.

You have fullbacks to run one yard. Don't need a backup QB to come in and do that. Shanahan isn't going to do that

[Warriorfan]

Cowboys really going to benefit from Shanahan blunder.

They got Micah Parsons with 49ers pick.
Plus they gor 1st round talent for a 4th.

Dolphins haul helped them get Chubb, Waylan and Hill

Im sure Shanahan will get above average production from Purdy and Darnold who had a better QB grade than Lance

Would have been great to have Parsons though the 49ers would have to choose between him and Bosa which one to extend.

Unless one of them took a below-market contract.

Bosa isn't taking a below-market deal nor will Parsons, I suspect.

Parsons would get Armstead money. DT run stopper they could get on the cheap.

[CrimsonCrew]

How does it cause problems? It seemed to work pretty damn well for the Saints. Also Lance is a great runner. He might not be elusive, but he’s absolutely massive and hella athletic. We just haven’t seen him enough to know what he can do.

It worked well for one team you mentioned. The 49ers have tried it twice over the years. Bill Walsh tried it with Young/Montana and Harbaugh tried it with Kaepernick and Smith and in both cases the coaches abandoned it. It takes the starting QB out of rhythm. It is asking for a backup QB to come in cold and potentially make a passing play at the goal line and if that player isn't going to be asked to throw the ball defenses are just going to key on that person running. Over the long run it wasn't effective for Harbaugh and any benefit from it was outweighed by the issues it caused. Trey isn't elusive. He can't run over people like he did in college. That isn't going to change. He isn't going to be like the other really good running QBs in the league.

At Treys peak he could easily be a Cam Newton esque runner. Cam wasn’t particularly elusive either, but he could bull guys over. I don’t get how Trey running a 1 yard qb sneak is going to throw off the starting qbs rhythm. If that is the case that qb would be extremely fragile mentally.

Cam Newton weighed 24 more pounds than Trey coming out, and was clearly a more explosive short-area runner. I don't like that comparison at all. I compared Fields to a Cam Newton lite prior to the draft (in terms of running). Lance doesn't have that sort of power and suddenness. He has good footwork and feel for running up the middle, but that's different from sneaking, and is not a sustainable offense in the NFL. He's also flat-out bad at protecting himself when he runs.

[wco81]

There was one play where Trey came in with the ball around the 5 and he scored untouched on a misdirection run to the outside.

49ers were struggling to punch it in until that point in that particular game.

So while he isn't Lamar Jackson, under the right situations, he has enough speed to be a threat.

[CrimsonCrew]

There was one play where Trey came in with the ball around the 5 and he scored untouched on a misdirection run to the outside.

49ers were struggling to punch it in until that point in that particular game.

So while he isn't Lamar Jackson, under the right situations, he has enough speed to be a threat.

Sure. I actually think he's gotten a bad rap for his running ability this preseason. There would be plays when he was scrambling, looking to throw - which is what you want and an area where he's better than Darnold who just takes off - and take off a second late and get caught from behind. That wasn't a lack of speed, per se, he's just trying to make a play with his arm.

Lance is a pretty good runner, all things considered. Especially if he's bailing the pocket and running in the open field, he's got more than enough speed to hurt teams. But Cam Newton was elite in the short area. You basically couldn't stop him from the one or the two. Lance ain't that IMO.

[Big J]

It worked well for one team you mentioned. The 49ers have tried it twice over the years. Bill Walsh tried it with Young/Montana and Harbaugh tried it with Kaepernick and Smith and in both cases the coaches abandoned it. It takes the starting QB out of rhythm. It is asking for a backup QB to come in cold and potentially make a passing play at the goal line and if that player isn't going to be asked to throw the ball defenses are just going to key on that person running. Over the long run it wasn't effective for Harbaugh and any benefit from it was outweighed by the issues it caused. Trey isn't elusive. He can't run over people like he did in college. That isn't going to change. He isn't going to be like the other really good running QBs in the league.

At Treys peak he could easily be a Cam Newton esque runner. Cam wasn’t particularly elusive either, but he could bull guys over. I don’t get how Trey running a 1 yard qb sneak is going to throw off the starting qbs rhythm. If that is the case that qb would be extremely fragile mentally.

You have fullbacks to run one yard. Don't need a backup QB to come in and do that. Shanahan isn't going to do that

QB sneak for 1 yard is such a higher percentage play than handing it off to your fullback. Look at what the Eagles did last year with the QB sneak. It was unstoppable in short yardage situations.

[CrimsonCrew]

At Treys peak he could easily be a Cam Newton esque runner. Cam wasn’t particularly elusive either, but he could bull guys over. I don’t get how Trey running a 1 yard qb sneak is going to throw off the starting qbs rhythm. If that is the case that qb would be extremely fragile mentally.

You have fullbacks to run one yard. Don't need a backup QB to come in and do that. Shanahan isn't going to do that

QB sneak for 1 yard is such a higher percentage play than handing it off to your fullback. Look at what the Eagles did last year with the QB sneak. It was unstoppable in short yardage situations.

That's true. And it's an area where Jimmy was excellent. Tom Brady may be the best sneaking QB in league history, and it's a hugely undervalued ability. Hopefully Purdy will watch some film on him.